U45: Official Burglar Changes Discussion

[OnnMacMahal]

This post details the ongoing Burglar changes for U45 Bullroarer.

For the Gambler, the following changes aim to update your skill flow to be a little less reliant on stealth and feel a little more distinct from The Quiet Knife, with a focus on gamble effects and bleeds. Gambles would be a little more dynamic so they are not just maintenance buffs and would interact with more of your skills than they currently do. Importantly, blue and green gambles would be buffs applied to the Burglar rather than debuffs applied to your target.

For the Quiet Knife, the following changes aim to remove your reliance on positional to deal adequate damage, and make it a little easier to get your critical skill chain started through skill combos while removing gambles and making your core gameplay more distinct from the Gambler’s.

For the Mischief-maker, the following changes aim to update your overall kit to better match the effects and potency of yellow-line Lore-masters and the other support specializations. These changes should also clean up some awkward and frustrating skill interactions (such as those with skills that currently apply Minor and Major Rent armour).
Tricks and Trick Removal skills in particular were statistically potent but not very fun or interesting to use in practice (half of your tricks were not useful in the vast majority of scenarios, and trick removals treat tricks as a very limited commodity despite the fact that tricks have minimal cooldowns).
Additionally, Burglar debuff potency will be drawn back in line with other classes by removing Trickster’s ability to double-apply tricks, as well as by tricks becoming mutually exclusive even between multiple Burglars. Some of this value (particularly from Addle and Disable) will be redistributed across other support-role debuffs.

Please note that there are some planned changes and revisions which have not yet been implemented. In particular, trait trees have not been reset and some skills may be available in inappropriate trait specializations, etc. If you have any skills inexplicably missing as of this beta, please visit a class trainer for the time being to re-acquire them. The Gambler specialization in particular is missing more traits and mechanics than the other specializations at this time. We're working as fast as possible to get those changes up for you.

 

[OnnMacMahal]

General Skills

Addle
Addle no longer becomes ‘Improved Addle’ and thus no longer applies a Tactical Damage debuff to targets.
Note: this extremely impactful debuff has no business being on a single class's generic interrupt skill. The potency of this effect will be rolled into the support specialization Outgoing Damage debuffs (F&F Lore, Disable, Debilitating Strike, or Suppressing Stings)

Subtle Stab
Subtle Stab now has an inherent +10% chance to critically hit.
Cooldown reduced to 0.5s

Cunning Attack
Cunning Attack bleeds no longer stack with one another. Only the most potent bleed is now active on your target. Devastating Hits now apply the same bleed as a regular critical hit.

Exposed Throat
Exposed Throat is now a baseline skill earned at level 16. This skill no longer has a chance to start a Fellowship Maneouvre.

Flashing Blades
Flashing Blades is now a baseline skill earned at level 30.

Hide in Plain Sight
In content where HiPS was previously disabled, it should now be enabled with a reduced cooldown and instead of its current effects, it applies 5s of combat stealth. This change means HiPS does not allow you to break out of combat with any monsters you have currently engaged.
HiPS duration in PvMP has been reduced by 6s.

Purge Corruption
Purge Corruption is no longer a part of the critical response chain.
Purge Corruption now has a 15s cooldown which is reduced to 5s while the critical response chain is active (reflected in the Sharp Eye buff).
If Purge Corruption successfully dispels a corruption, now gives back a critical response to you.

Cunning Attack
Only the most potent Cunning Attack bleed will apply to your target at any point in time (per character). Additionally, devastating skill hits would apply the same bleed as critical hits.

Provoke
Provoke no longer provides “Roll With It” damage negation by default. (Damage reduction from Provoke is now traitable in the Mischief-maker trait tree).
Cooldown reduced from 6s to 4s.

Ready and Able
This skill has been removed.

Riddle
Riddle's base Daze duration has been reduced from 30s to 15s.

Touch and Go
Touch and Go's base cooldown has been reduced from 5m to 2m.

Sneak
Outside of PvMP: Sneak cooldown has been reduced from 10s to 5s

Throw Knife
Throw Knife now has a from-stealth variant (which currently does nothing).



A Note on Tricks: Tricks are now mutually exclusive, meaning they will no longer stack with one another, even between multiple Burglars.

 

[OnnMacMahal]

Trait Specializations

The Gambler

Surprise Strike no longer becomes Gambler’s Surprise Strike. Given the chance to overwrite an existing gamble with a lower tier, the random nature of the gamble application chance, and the fact that other gambles are readily applied directly, this effect only ever served to complicate the Gambler’s skill set and make this skill worse than default Surprise Strike to use overall.

Hedge Your Bet
Hedge Your Bet no longer applies an effect to your target. Instead, it grants the Burglar a heal over time (every 2s for 10s) depending on the roll. Hedge Your Bet now costs slightly more Power.

Gambler’s Advantage
This skill-granting trait would swap places with ‘Bob and Weave’ making it a Gambler-exclusive skill.

Blind Bet
Blind Bet’s debuffing gamble would become a beneficial ‘Combat Gamble’ and its effects would apply to the Burglar, not the target (values ranging from +1% Outgoing Damage and -1% Incoming Damage to +10% Outgoing Damage and -10% Incoming Damage)
-10s Blind Bet Cooldown

Even the Odds
Even the Odds is now an active skill. It's effects are not yet hooked up at of Br #3, but they will be:

Attack Duration > +3% AoE Damage; Surprise Strike, Cunning Attack, and Subtle Stab become AoE skills.​

Critical Rating > +5% DoT Damage, +3 DoT Pulses.​

Evade Rating > +50% Gamble Tier Up Chance, +2.5% Mitigations​

Mastery > +3% Single Target Damage; Double-edged Strike and Flashing Blades become single-target.​

Double Down
The Double Down trait has swapped positions with Overwhelming Odds, making it a Gambler-exclusive trait.
Double Down is now an active skill:

Tiers up an active damaging gamble on your target and rolls a random damaging gamble on surrounding enemies.​

60s cooldown​

Note: Double Down is an attack, and as such, if it crits, the AoE red gamble application should benefit from the ‘false t6’ from Loaded Dice.​

Dealings Done
Stealthed Surprise Strike will roll a random (Green, Blue, or Red) tier 6 gamble.

Cash Out
Cash Out has been cleaned up, and should now function more closely to how it was originally designed. It will deal more damage depending on your (the Burglar) current blue and green gamble tiers, as well as the tier of your target's red gamble. It will also heal you for more and stun your target for longer depending on the tier of your current green or blue gambles respectively.

Loaded Dice
Loaded Dice no longer impacts Even the Odds, Blind Bet, Cash Out, or All In. Instead:
Gamble application skills which crit now give a ‘false’ 6 gamble roll for 6 seconds. Your true gamble roll is revealed after that false 6 roll expires.



Leaf Walker
This trait has been removed.

Bob and Weave
Bob and Weave has moved from a Gambler-exclusive to a buyable trait in the Gambler trait tree.
Bob and Weave is no longer a random proc effect. Instead, it is now an active skill which grants Combat Stealth and a Heal over Time.

Overwhelming Odds
This trait is now buyable in the trait tree in place of Double Down. Overwhelming Odds no longer affects Fellowship Manoeuvre potency.
3 Ranks.

+5-20% Chance to receive a critical response after successfully using a critical chain skill.​

Aggravated Bleeds (Trait)
This trait no longer requires points in any prerequisite traits.

Bleeding Jugular (Exposed Throat)
This trait adds the ‘Bleeding Jugular’ bleed to Exposed Throat.

Against the Odds
5 Ranks

For each rank:​

+2% AoE Damage​

High Roller
The effects of High Roller would no longer increase gamble-applying skill damage. Instead, it would:
Increase the duration of your high rolling gambles.

4: +1 pulse​

5: +2 pulses​

6: +3 pulses​

A Sure Thing
A Sure Thing no longer increases harmful gamble damage. Instead:
Surprise Strike tiers down an active Gambler’s Advantage bleed on your target to deal bonus damage.
Additional ranks increase the potency of this bonus damage.

All In
All In now also reduces your gamble skill cooldowns to 0.5s for its duration.

Sharp Eye
Sharp Eye now also grants +2.5% Critical Chance while your crit chain is active.

 

[OnnMacMahal]

The Quiet Knife

The Quiet Knife (Effect) has been removed.

Feint Attack
Feint Attack is no longer a part of the crit chain.

Knives Out
Knives Out cooldown has been reduced by 30s (to account for the ‘Improved Knives Out’ trait being removed).
Knives Out has swapped positions with Coup de Grace, making Knives Out the capstone trait for the Quiet Knife tree.

Coup de Grace
Coup de Grace is now granted immediately upon specializing in the Quiet Knife.
Coup de Grace will consume a Well-placed bleed on a target to deal bonus damage.

Perforate
In place of the ‘Advanced Knives Out’ trait, you gain the skill ‘Perforate.’
Crit Chain skill (step one, like Double-edged Strike)
Single target skill, making 3 rapid attacks

Bloodletter
Each time you land a critical hit with Perforate you gain a stack of “Bloodletter” (up to 3)
Bloodletter buffs give +1% Critical Chance and +2.5% Melee Damage and grants bonus damage to Exposed Throat and Flashing Blades.
Bloodletter Exposed Throat and Flashing Blades will consume all bloodletter effects to deal bonus damage.



Footpad
Combat Stealth speed buff has been doubled from 2-10% to 4-20%.

Hidden Dagger
This trait has moved from the third row to the second row of the tree.

Stun Dust
This skill-granting trait has moved to the third row of the Mischief-maker tree.

Back Stab
Back Stab now gives +Surprise Strike Damage (2-10%) rather than +Positional Damage.

Flashing Blades
With Flashing Blades being a baseline skill, this trait improves the Damage of Flashing Blades.

Vital Points
Vital Points no longer reduces your target’s critical defense and no longer requires points in Dance of Blades. Instead:
Second step Critical Response Chain skills gain a 5-15% chance to unlock the skill ‘Well-placed Strike’ for 6s
Well-placed Strike
Deals significant damage to a single target and leaves your target bleeding. This bleed will be consumed by Coup de Grace.

Trip
Trip would move to the Mischief-maker tree.

Sneak Attack
Coup de Grace cooldown has been increased to 45s
Coup de Grace now grants a 6s buff: skills act as though you are in stealth, and critical response chain skills become freely available with reduced cooldowns.

 

[OnnMacMahal]

The Mischief-maker

When specialized in the Mischief-maker, Subtle Stab gains 2s cooldown (returning it to a 2.5s cooldown) and retains its cooldown reduction for Startling Twist, Mischievous Glee, and Clever Retort.

Trick: Enrage
Mischievous Glee and Trick: Enrage have swapped places, making Enrage a Mischief-only skill while allowing any Burglar to access Mischievous Glee (with sufficient points in the Mischief-maker tree).
From stealth, Enrage is now an AoE skill.

Trick: Disable
Disable’s effect now has a base potency of x0.9 Outgoing Damage.
From stealth, Disable is now an AoE skill.



Reveal Weakness
Reveal Weakness is now an active skill, exclusive to the Mischief-maker. It is a standard melee attack requiring a critical response (step one, like Double-edged Strike) to apply a temporary debuff increasing your target’s incoming damage for 15s.
Note: Reveal Weakness should require a critical response, but it does not in this build.

A Small Snag/Quite a Snag
This skill no longer applies a root. It also no longer applies ‘The Mischief-maker’ buff to the burglar.
A Small Snag will tier up the Reveal Weakness debuff on your current target, making it more potent and causing it to last for 20s.

Disabling Attack
This trait has been removed, and its effect has been rolled into the baseline Disable effect.

Mischievous Diversion
Diversion becomes “Mischievous Diversion” which is usable in combat.
Grants Combat Stealth
40s Cooldown

Joke with Legs
This trait now also adds +15s to Riddle’s Daze duration.

Counter Defence
A Trick for all Tastes has been replaced here by Counter Defence.
Counter Defence is no longer be a trick, and now applies Minor Rent Armour (-10% Physical Mitigation, -8% Tactical Mitigation) in an AoE around your target.
Duration: 35s
Cooldown: 30s

Little Annoyances
This trait has been removed and replaced with:

Trickster
Cooldown increased from 60s to 120s.
For 10s all skills act as though you are Stealthed and you gain
Aura: Trick Sanctuary, granting -50% Attack Duration, -15% Incoming Damage, and +10% Movement Speed in to allies within 12m of you.

Confound the Fools
The trait has been removed.

Unseen Scheme (New Skill)
In a puff of smoke and whirl of blades, you rend the armour of enemies around you.
Deals significant damage and applies Major Rent Armour (15s/15s)
60s Cooldown
Grants Combat Stealth



Practical Joke
This trait has been removed.

Opportunist
This trait increases Subtle Stab’s base damage (+5-25%).
This increases Subtle Stab's inherent damage, and this trait no longer causes the skill to deal bonus damage to targets with active tricks on them.

Impossible Target
3 Ranks
Combat Stealth reduces Incoming Damage by 5%-15%.

Mischievous Glee
Mischievous Glee no longer requires an active trick on your target, nor does it remove an active trick from your target.

Counter Defence
Counter Defence is now a Mischief-only trait and is no longer buyable in the tree.

Perplexing Proposition
This trait has been removed.

Vital Cut
5 Ranks
Exposed Throat applies an Incoming Healing debuff (5-25%) for 12s.

Stun Dust
Stun Dust is now a yellow-line trait.

Roll With It
5 Ranks
This trait causes Provoke to gain the effect “Roll With It” to negate 10% damage of the next incoming attack.
Ranks 2-5 increase the negation potency by 5% per tier (30% max).

Self Adulation
This trait now gives a bonus to all Outgoing Healing, rather than being limited to Clever Retort and Glee.

A Trick for All Tastes (Mischievous Delight)
Mischievous Glee becomes an AoE heal for your fellowship with reduced potency.

Burglar’s Antidote
When traited, Burglar’s antidote only affect the player’s fellowship, not the entire raid.

Trip
Trip is now found in the yellow tree rather than the red tree.

Appraising Eye (Mischief-only)
A Small Snag will spread the Reveal Weakness debuff in a small area around your target if used on an enemy already suffering from the Reveal Weakness or Small Snag debuffs.

Dust in the Eyes
This skill is no longer a trick and no longer applies a debuff to enemies. Instead, it applies a 15 daze.
Dust in the Eyes still leaves targets slowed.
60s cooldown

Clever Retort
Clever Retort no longer requires or removes an active trick from your target. No longer being dependent upon tricks, Clever Retort instead grants four temporary skills for 15 seconds with a shared cooldown.

Guile: Deals damage over time to your target.​

Strength: Deals potent damage to your target.​

Conviction: Restore Morale to yourself or an ally.​

Spirit: Restore Power to yourself or an ally.​

- When used, these skills form a two- or three-length Personal Manoeuvre, which will apply additional effects when executed if you have created a 2-length Pair or 3-length Straight.​

60s cooldown
Note: Most Clever Retort combination skills are not functional in this build.

 

[OnnMacMahal]

Traceries

Addle Tactical Damage Debuff > Trick Debuff Potency
This tracery now adds up to 3.3% potency to the debuffs applied by Trick: Disable and Trick: Enrage.

Backstab Damage > Bloodletter Potency
This tracery now increases the potency of Bloodletter's buffs up to 38.5%.

Chain Skills Critical Multiplier > Trickster Cooldown
This tracery now reduces the cooldown of Trickster up to 33s.

Coup de Grace Damage
The maximum potency of this tracery has been reduced to 38.5%.

Coup de Grace Duration & Crit Chance > Combat Stealth Duration
This tracery has been renamed to more accurately reflect the fact that it impacts Combat Stealth duration from any sources, not just that from Coup de Grace. Additionally, it no longer increases the critical chance of Coup de Grace.

Cunning Attack Bleed Damage
The maximum potency of this tracery has been reduced to 33%.

Dust in the Eyes Miss Chance > Dust in the Eyes Slow Duration
This tracery now increases the duration of the Dust in the Eyes slow up to 11s.

Feint Attack Damage
The maximum potency of this tracery has been reduced to 38.5%.

Hedge Your Bet Damage > Even the Odds Cooldown
This tracery now reduces the cooldown of Even the Odds up to 4.4s.

Lucky & Gambler's Strike Damage > Lucky Strike Damage & Critical Chance
This tracery now increases the damage of Lucky Strike up to 38.5% and critical chance up to 11%.

Lucky Strike Critical Chance > Gamble Pulses
This tracery now increases the number of times each gamble effect will pulse up to 4.

Purge Corruption Damage > Damage from Stealth
This tracery now increases damage dealt from stealth up to 11%.

Reveal Weakness Incoming Damage and Range > Reveal Weakness Incoming Damage
This tracery no longer increases the maximum range of Reveal Weakness, and the maximum potency of this tracery has been reduced to 2.2%.

Riddle Range > Clever Retort Cooldown
This tracery now reduces the cooldown of Clever Retort up to 16.5s.

Surprise Strike Critical Chance and Backstab Bonus > Crit Chain Skill Cooldowns
This tracery now reduces the cooldowns of all critical chain skill up to 1.1s.

Surprise Strike Damage > Surprise Strike Damage & Critical Chance
this tracery now increases the damage of Surprise Strike up to 27.5% and its critical chance up to 5.5%.

Trick and Trick Removal Damage > Return Strike Chance
This tracery now increases the chance that Return Strike will be triggered up to 27.5%.

 

[Mithlanros]

Quick note on Blue Gamblers Strike is requiring a crit chain even though it should not with enough points in the line.

 

[Jsmooth73]

So here's my quick feedback:
1. There's a severe imbalance in the trait trees. If you take all traits in the tree: Yellow has too many traits (55), blue is severally lacking (46) and red is slightly lacking (51) - assuming 53 is norm for most class specs. To bring them to 53 each I would do the following:

a. For Gambler line:​

i. Bring back the old double down trait. Allowing Diversion to add a random gamble and provoke a daze. Doing this was helpful and a solid opening.​

ii. Give another rank of aggravated bleeds.​

iii. Move stun dust from yellow to blue. Put it in the second line. Blue needs more, and having a secondary stun ability can give some utility. Yellow can still be the main mezzer, and debuffs, but allowing blue the ability to stun with the provoke and stun dust helps blue builds.​

iv. Swift and Subtle shouldn't be tied to Stick and Move. Allow burgs to trait swift and subtle without taking stick and move.​

v. Give Blue another trait that increases how long the gambles last - 4 ranks. 10s buffs don't last long, especially if a blue burg is trying to max out the cash out skill. It is easy to get all three gambles on a target in live with the length of them, but now with the self buffs, they don't last as long making it more difficult to use cash out.​

b. For Quiet Knife line:​

i. Move Flashing blade damage to the first line of the trait tree. Since it is now a baseline skill, make it easier for other specs to pick it up. If not the first line, make it the second.​

ii. I find it odd that red line doesn't have a trait to impact exposed throat. I feel they should get something to enhance that skill. How about something that increases crit or devastate chance?​

iii. I almost feel that impossible target from yellow would be a better fit in red line. Yellow already has several defensive traits. maybe spread it around.​

c. For Mischief Maker:​

i. This trait tree is more developed than the others. Please note the few changes. Give Blue - stun dust. Give Red - impossible Target.​

ii. Add a trait to in the second tier where Impossible target is so burgs can get the skill Ready and Able. However increase the cooldown on the skill. In the third tier down add a second trait to remove the cooldown of ready and able so its closer to where it is now. This makes it so that the skill needs to be traited and at least the second and third tier down in yellow. If a five minute cooldown is too much make it like 10 mins for tier two trait, and then 7 mins for tier three.​

2. There is a bottleneck in both the red and blue trait trees especially at tier 4 down. This makes it difficult to not take certain skills to get deeper into the tree. This is bad design.
3. Many of the burglar traceries need to be updated. I believe many will completely change. Any timetable when the new traceries will be added? (Addle tactical debuff will be changed to my [guessing] disable tactical debuff).
4. There needs to be a red gamble dice icon over the burg when he adds a red gamble. The green and blue gambles are present but not red.
5. Blue burglar still feels a little underpowered compared to red. I did a few dummy sessions and red was always significantly higher in dmg. Maybe numbers need to be tweaked to bring blue up some.
6. The pace of burglar feels sped up and similar to playing a champ. What I mean is that you are constantly hitting skills whenever they come off cooldown (what a champ does and how burg is now playing). The pace on live feels a little slower and more deliberate, meaning you have a little more time to make decisions on what skills to use. Whereas on bullroarer all the burg specs should be hitting something at every minute. This is just a general feel of the how the class is playing.
7. While in the gambler spec, I feel that some of your other skills (provoke, surprise strike, subtle stab, diversion) should be affecting your gambles in some way: adding another one, upgrading them, extending their duration, spreading the damage gamble to other mobs. I say this because of how short lived the gambles last, that you want to constantly be hitting those, and you don't have time for other skills.
8. Currently gambler's strike needs a crit event to be used, this isn't how the skill should work.


I'll add more when I have the time. Will come back and edit this post.

 

[Gurgelhorm]

Álso it would be nice if the AOE Version of Double Eged finally becomes a good immed. like the single target version^^

 

[Kain Breeve]

Small request. Could you make diversion and burgle have a lower cooldown, and possibly add something for in-combat use?

 

[Nuramon]

Can "Contact Pedlar" be fixed so that it actually works on all Camp Site Fires? There are currently a lot of them where it seems to be disabled.
Even better would be if it could work at campfires made with the "Bright campfire"-skill from hunters.

 

[OnnMacMahal]

We're looking forward to the next beta test this week, but I did want to get player thoughts separately on the updated version of Even the Odds (which might not make this upcoming Bullroarer - TBD on that). This is meant to make the effects of ETO much more significant, and for it to nudge your skill priority a little bit depending on which buff you roll.

Even the Odds
Even the Odds would change from a trait that modifies Double-edged Strike into a new skill. These effects would be mutually exclusive with one another, and would be applied by a new skill with a 10s cooldown:

Attack Duration > +3% AoE Damage; Surprise Strike, Cunning Attack, and Subtle Stab become AoE skills.​

Critical Rating > +5% DoT Damage, +3 DoT Pulses.​

Evade Rating > +50% Gamble Tier Up Chance, +2.5% Mitigations​

Mastery > +3% Single Target Damage; Double-edged Strike and Flashing Blades become single-target.​

 

[aleczander]

Attack Duration > +3% AoE Damage; Surprise Strike, Cunning Attack, and Subtle Stab become AoE skills.​

Critical Rating > +5% DoT Damage, +3 DoT Pulses.​

Evade Rating > +50% Gamble Tier Up Chance, +2.5% Mitigations​

Mastery > +3% Single Target Damage; Double-edged Strike and Flashing Blades become single-target.​

A 3% damage buff would not be enough to make me change my rotation priority.
I would definitely take advantage of Cunning Attack, Surpise Strike, Subtle Stab becoming AoE.
I don't understand the benefit of making Double-edged Strike and Flashing Blades become single target? What's the advantage of that (is there a buff/debuff in play here besides the 3%)? I suppose this is intended for you to take advantage of traceries that buff single target damage. I personally like having one for single target and one for AoE..so this seems underwhelming imho.

 

[Kain Breeve]

We're looking forward to the next beta test this week, but I did want to get player thoughts separately on the updated version of Even the Odds (which might not make this upcoming Bullroarer - TBD on that). This is meant to make the effects of ETO much more significant, and for it to nudge your skill priority a little bit depending on which buff you roll.

Even the Odds
Even the Odds would change from a trait that modifies Double-edged Strike into a new skill. These effects would be mutually exclusive with one another, and would be applied by a new skill with a 10s cooldown:

Attack Duration > +3% AoE Damage; Surprise Strike, Cunning Attack, and Subtle Stab become AoE skills.​

Critical Rating > +5% DoT Damage, +3 DoT Pulses.​

Evade Rating > +50% Gamble Tier Up Chance, +2.5% Mitigations​

Mastery > +3% Single Target Damage; Double-edged Strike and Flashing Blades become single-target.​

1. how does the AOE interact with Focused Strikes toggle?
2. are these all, random, or selected effects, and the duration of these effects will be __? 10s cooldown of a skill that "possibly" might give you aoe on some skills, is RNG on top of RNG. Part of the original problem with gambles. It either should be a selectable effect, or include all the effects.
3. from the wording double edged strike will become a new skill called "random buff generator".

Currently Blue has 2 tier 2 of the crit chain (double edged strike, blind bet), and 3 tier 3 of the crit chain (gambler's advantage, exposed throat, flashing blades). there is still a bottle neck in the tier 2 for the crit chain, waiting for crit chain 2 to come off CD. Making the blue line DES 10s, would further bottle neck the crit chain.

Will there be any synergy with LI regarding gamble bleeds vs non-gamble bleeds? I.e. will the gamble bleeds be affected by the bleed/dot traceries. Cunning attack has the ability to have a stronger bleed based on crit/dev crit. Gamblers strike applies a red gamble, gambler's advantage applies a bleed (no crit bonus).

Edit: BTW i do like the changes to blue, definitely looking forward to them. Oops, second edit, because i wasn't thinking, gambler's strike isn't part of the crit chain.

 

[Brinuw]

We're looking forward to the next beta test this week, but I did want to get player thoughts separately on the updated version of Even the Odds (which might not make this upcoming Bullroarer - TBD on that). This is meant to make the effects of ETO much more significant, and for it to nudge your skill priority a little bit depending on which buff you roll.

Even the Odds
Even the Odds would change from a trait that modifies Double-edged Strike into a new skill. These effects would be mutually exclusive with one another, and would be applied by a new skill with a 10s cooldown:

Attack Duration > +3% AoE Damage; Surprise Strike, Cunning Attack, and Subtle Stab become AoE skills.​

Critical Rating > +5% DoT Damage, +3 DoT Pulses.​

Evade Rating > +50% Gamble Tier Up Chance, +2.5% Mitigations​

Mastery > +3% Single Target Damage; Double-edged Strike and Flashing Blades become single-target.​

Assuming this new skills would replance Double-edged Strike:
My issue with this is the 10s cooldown. Burg rotation is all about cycling through the crit chain pretty much every 5s, using another non-DES tier 1 skill to open up Flashing Blades, then Flashing Blades -> DES for a quick burst due to DES being an Immediate skills.
This change will significantly slow down Gambler's rotation and I dont think the rng buffs are really strong enough to justify it.

On the matter of the buffs themselves:

• AoE damage and Surprise Strike and Cunning Attack becoming AoE is interesting. Suble Stab however just doesnt really matter. Its a filler skill, and unless there's some mechanic that ties Subtle Stab into the gambles system I dont see the point of having it AoE.
• DoT damage is good, DoT Pulses isnt. Typically it would be but since Gamble's are now exclusive (cant over write a bad tier with another) then all this is telling me is to hope I dont get this option because if I get a T1 Damaging Gamble then its another 6s before I can try and get a better tier. The other DoTs at the burgs disposal are already sitting at a duration commensurate with their application:
  • Bleeding Jugular is a 12s DoT base and you'll likely be using Exposed Throat every 10s so this already has a near 100% uptime.
  • Well Placed Strike lasts for a massive 30s (though this didnt appear to be getting modified by +Pulses mods anyways) which is frankly 2-3 times as long as it needs to be anyways.
  • Gambler's Advantage lasts for 26s, which is another skill that you're going to be using far more often than that (like every 5-8s in my experience) which means its already well pasts 100% uptime.
  • Cunning Attack does take some investment into maximizing its uptime, as the +2 pulses from the Gambler Tree only bring it up to 12s duration. Then again its a skill that you're using very frequently in between your crit chain loops so its duration is pretty solid where its at now. The only way I can see added pulses being great for this skill is when its made AoE, which cant happen because the Even the Odds effects are exclusive.
• Gamble Tier Up chance is a bit confusing as I was under the impression that that mechanic was getting removed with this revamp. Even then it looks like the weakest of the options. Unreliable mitigations are unreliable and wiping cause you didnt have the right rng proc to survive a mechanic is not fun, nor would it be something you plan on. Since you would build around not having this proc then this proc becomes the worst option.
• Single Target damage is good, DES and FB becoming single target is not. In situations where you need AoE damage, but you rng'd your strongest burst skills into ST would completely gut the Gambler's effectiveness for that duration. In addition Focused Strikes is a trait any burglar can pick up with some investment, so this effect is both unreliable and redundant.

Some suggestions overall for this effect:
Firstly dont change anything about DES with it. If it needs to become a new skill that replaces DES then fine but it should remain an Immediate skills with a 5s cooldown so that the core rotation isnt thrown askew. Having the effects be exclusive is good, make them like the Buffing Gamble in that when you have an effect you cant get another effect until that wears off.

As for the effects:

• +3% AoE dmg; Surprise Strike, Blind Bet, and Cashout become AoE skills
• +3% DoT dmg; Surprise Strike refreshes and spreads active Cunning Attack DoT to nearby enemies, and Lucky/Gambler's Strike becomes AoE skill
• +3% ST dmg; Surprise Strike, Suble Stab, and Exposed Throat deal an additional damage it when used on a target with an active Damaging Gamble.
• +3% AoE, DoT, and Single Target dmg to all allies within 20m of the burglar.
  
  • I dont like the idea of a defensive option as its unreliable. I would rather have a more interesting offensive option that might be lower powered than the other three but far more universal. Increasing the damage of all styles instead of just one is still a buff, and its a trade off of the unique secondary effects for just a short buff to everyone.

 

[Jsmooth73]

Beta 3 Burg Quick thoughts:
1. Burglars in all specs have access to a lot of healing. This is interesting that Burglars can easily have 3+ heals.
2. It seems that High Roller only works on damaging gambles. Is this WaI or should it be all gambles? I would slightly alter high roller in gambler so it would be as follows:

Tier 1-3 +1 pulse​

Tier 4-5 +2 pulses​

Tier 6 +3 pulses​

I don't like traits that half the time do nothing. At least this way, regardless of what you get on your gambles, they will last a little longer. Also the length of the blue and green gambles are only 8 secs regardless of tier; where as the red gamble will last longer the higher the dice roll.
3. It is difficult to get multiple gambles to be cashed out because of how short the blue and green gamble lengths are. Please increase the effect length time on the blue and green gambles.
4. Bob and Weave skill is excellent. I like how it works in other specs, especially red and yellow. Solid healing skill that also enters stealth is a good skill.
5, Skill proposal for Blue line: Give Blue Burglar a skill like captain's blade brother(call it Accomplice, Con Man, or Double Crosser) where that person gains the effects of the Blue and Green gambles as well as the buffs from even the odds. So when blue burglar gains a blue or green gamble or hits the skill even the odds, then the Accomplice/Con Man/Double Crosser also gains those buffs and/or gambles. (The effects on the other player could even be slightly reduced for balance reasons). This would give blue burglar some utility that they have lost since their gambles only effect the burglar now and not anyone who strikes the target of the gambles.
6. Even the odds feedback:
My assumption is that each one would give a slight increase in the stated stat and then they would also gain that effect. Thus for the first buff (Attack Duration > +3% AoE Damage; Surprise Strike, Cunning Attack, and Subtle Stab become AoE skills.) You would reduce your attack duration and then gain +3% Aoe Damage and SStrike, CA, and SS would be AoE. If this is how it would work, then I feel that's good.

Even the Odds would change from a trait that modifies Double-edged Strike into a new skill. These effects would be mutually exclusive with one another, and would be applied by a new skill with a 10s cooldown:

Attack Duration > +3% AoE Damage; Surprise Strike, Cunning Attack, and Subtle Stab become AoE skills.​

Critical Rating > +5% DoT Damage, +3 DoT Pulses.​

Evade Rating > +50% Gamble Tier Up Chance, +2.5% Mitigations​

Mastery > +3% Single Target Damage; Double-edged Strike and Flashing Blades become single-target. How would this work with the focused strikes trait from red? Maybe increase Crit chain skill damage along with single target damage? ​

7. I don't like that hedge your bet is now a crit chain skill. However, please make it at the same level as DeS and Gambler's advantage (Currently it is a tier three skill). So Blue burg would have DeS, GA, and HyB at tier two and then Flashing Blades, Blind Bet, and Exposed Throat at tier three.
8. Lower the cooldown of Cash out. Take away the negative aspect of All In (Is it really needed?)
9. Return the skill Ready and Able!
10. This line is from your description of Blue Burglar: Gambles would be a little more dynamic so they are not just maintenance buffs and would interact with more of your skills than they currently do. I don't see this as a major part of the overall build. The blue and green gambles are definitely maintenance buffs. Where is it if you have a gamble on, it effects what a skill can do? Have one of these skills: Provoke, Subtle Stab, Surprise Strike extend blue and green gambles - Subtle Stab. Have one of those skills spread a red gamble to another mob - Surprise Strike. Have one of those skills Cash out a green or blue gamble to stun a mob - Provoke.

Update 1:
1. Damage overall seems to be down overall compared to live. Certain skills dealt less damage namely Gambler's strike. Not sure of the issue, but no reveal weakness and longer lasting gambles with a quicker Cash out time, could be an issue. Also, All in Lasts longer on Live vs Beta 3. Please note, same exact equipment and build on live vs Beta three. Slightly less damage from dummy and Combat Analysis on Beta 3 than live.
2. Gambles on live last upwards to 30 secs before they fall off. Only Red gambles of tier 6 last at most 20 secs on Beta 3. All blue and green gambles only last 8 secs. This seems like a huge discrepancy.
3. Using Even the odds every 10 secs isn't fun. I would increase the length of the buff and the cooldown so that its 30 secs for the buff and cooldown of the skill is 15 secs. (better than 20 and 10S in beta 3) Slightly less maintenance during a fight is a good thing.
4. All In live vs Beta 3 is night and day.

Both: Boost Damage, Evade and Finesse. They both have negative effects on expiration of buff.​

Pros of Beta 3 All in: The ability to reduce the crit chain skills is amazing. Negative effect only lasts 5 secs vs 10 secs on live.​

Cons of Beta 3 All in: Shorter duration 15 secs vs 30 secs, 1 min 30 sec cooldown vs 1 min cooldown​

Make All in better. My advice is 20 secs duration with NO negative effects on completion with a 1 min and 30 second cooldown. This will give Blue Burgs that burst and dps that is needed during critical dps race times.
5. Exposed Throat has become one of the best DPS skills for blue burg. Nice overall improvement.
6. I find it odd that its better to take Mischievous Glee in Yellow rather than spending trait points to improve Bob and Weave in blue. Those same two trait points that could improve the skill twice are better used on getting another heal that has a shorter cooldown with greater overall burst healing.
7. Cash Out's cooldown needs to be shortened by at least 10 secs to equal what it is on live. If the gambles are going to stay with short effects, then cash out should also have a short cooldown.
8. Diversion needs more functionality in combat with blue and red burg. I like that diversion allows the burg to enter stealth and heals in yellow burg, so maybe add some functionality to red and blue. How about a short stun effect?

Update 2:
1. Feint attack is the engine that runs Red Burg. This may be the most important skill in the red burg line.
2. Red Burg doesn't have the options as Blue in the Crit chain line. I think this will help differentiate the two dps classes.
3. The Even the odds change seemed to go end toward the end of Beta 3. Would it be possible to have the icon be a different color depending on what was given? Thus Attack = Yellow, Mastery = Red, Evade = Green, and Critical = Blue.
4. The yellow tree is still bugged with its traits. Once set, you often have a few extra traits still available.
5. Clever Retort is interesting. I hope the healing and power effect the fellowship/raid. I need to play around with this more.
6. Blue lacks something to really push out AoE damage. What if double down spread all bleeds other than just red gambles? Or have one of the other skills, spread bleeds as well.
7. Looking back on my comments I know that I may have suggested things that could be contradictory to one another, but Blue Burglar is still missing a little something to tie it all together. It feels close, but it still isn't there just yet. Each patch is making it a little better.

I'll add more later.

 

[Eordion]

I feel sad about the changes for the Gambler (blue line).
I've mained a blue burg for years and what I always loved about it was being able to do a bit of debuffing and provide a small heal while still DPSing. Red always did more DPS of course but it made blue line unique and have its own role in a sense.

Now I'm looking at all these changes and I'm sad that the gambles have lost all group utility and instead have become some rather basic buffs. I can't help but wonder if a fellowship would even notice the difference between bringing a red or blue burg along (not counting DPS differences as I don't know if they'll change in the next beta).
I'd love it if the blue burg could get some kind of debuff back, I just hate the idea of red and blue being more or less interchangeable.

 

[gildhur]

We're looking forward to the next beta test this week, but I did want to get player thoughts separately on the updated version of Even the Odds (which might not make this upcoming Bullroarer - TBD on that). This is meant to make the effects of ETO much more significant, and for it to nudge your skill priority a little bit depending on which buff you roll.

Blue exclusive?

 

[tansquare]

Hellloooo OnnMM,

First off, you can really see the effort put into these changes across burg and hunt. Way to go!
As a blue burg, I've a few concerns with how this line hasn't quite been addressed as yet, as mentioned by another before me;

"Gambles would be a little more dynamic so they are not just maintenance buffs and would interact with more of your skills than they currently do"

I really feel as though this isn't the case, after testing out this BR, but we're on the cusp of greatness.

On Current Beta, The following non-gamble applying skills interact with Gambles:

- Cash Out
- Even the Odds
- Double Down
- Surprise Strike
------ (if 'A Sure Thing' is traited)
------ if 'Dealings Done' is earnt, while Stealthed. Indirectly, Bob and Weave now permits this to occur more due to adding Combat Stealth.
- Aim (causes Gambles to crit and thus roll loaded 6's, works after Loaded Dice is earnt. From Red.
- Provoke (arguably the same effect as Aim with the Provocateur buff, though far less impactful), only works after Loaded Dice is earnt,

I would argue that this alone is somewhat insufficient, or lacking in areas that cause bBurg to play very similar to Red. This is seen in the crit chain where both specs mirror one another exactly (save for their unique openers).

In fact, aside from the gambles themselves, nothing in the crit chain benefits gambles, and only Bleeding Jugular affects DoT, which Red often paths down to get.

Here is one such minor tweak that could enable bBurg to introduce more interaction to gambles and DoT in the crit chain, and to make the bBurg crit chain play functionally different than Red:

Other misc minor feedback on Blue:

-Jsmooth73's idea above to move Hedge your Bet into an opener position for the crit chain is also very clever, and would pair well with the above changes.
- Cash Out is still generally not worth it. The Red and Blue payoffs feel hardly impactful, and the CD on the skill is quite long.
- Even the Odds I agree with the others stating the ST buff feels out of place.
- Bleeding Jugular being accessible to Red is good, but could do with having some of it's DoT damage be balanced into GA, or damaging gamble. The similarity between the two specs for damage profile on this skill and DoT seems to close currently, at least in my testing.
- Stick and Move + Swift and Subtle is a very heavy point investment for little payoff, as Blue's sustain is already quite good and 50% on Bob pales in comparison to a tier 3+ Green Gamble. If acting to instead reduce the cooldown on Bob itself (as the S&S tooltip claims) or add some other form of utility would be beneficial. Perhaps on crit or evade?
- Sharp Eye has very poor value for a capstone trait. Red's Sneak attack is always available, and acts as 10 levels of Hidden Dagger. For Blue, Sharp Eye is essentially 2.5 levels of Deft Strikes, arguably less since it's only conditionally available. For a DoT and Gamble subclass, the capstone doesn't interact with DoT or Gambles.

Errors/Bugs(?)
- Overwhelming Odds seems to only work on Crit Chain Finishers, despite claiming to function on all Crit Chain skills.
- Loaded Dice currently only works on Blind Bet. Additionally, sometimes the Loaded version will not reveal the true gamble roll, and instead just end.
- Stealthed Surprise Strike Restorative Gamble currently damages the Burglar rather than heal them.

 

[Mithlanros]

Boy I just noticed the green gamble doing damage to the burg. This has been pointed out so I am sure it will be fixed but holy crap I was like why am I so squishy!?. I would also like to see hedge off of the Crit chain. By doing so this creates an AOE crit chain and 2 options for single target crit chain. With Hedge on the chain we have 3 single target routes that all are high priority, it's too cluttered. Additionally, even the odds will compound this, changing skill priority. Taking hedge off the chain makes the whole thing just play better. 2 cents