@SSG, various questions for various devs

E

Eth

Member
Hello, just some questions I have if any devs have free time to answer

Servers:
If you type /loc while in game, you'll get a message that begins with this "You are on <server name> server 54" focusing on the server number here, going over different borders in game or going to other zones will place you on a different server, for example in this case Bree is server 54, but if I run out of the gate until I hit a zone border and go into Chetwood and do /loc again "You are on <server name> server 57" now, some of these servers are extremely laggy, and some run perfectly fine (This is why in most cases of someone complaining about unplayable server lag, another person is usually around to say "I'm not lagging it's fine" ), it doesn't take much to create a sheet with the good and bad server numbers on them (useful if you want to create a lag free raid) but my question is why do some of these servers perform so badly while others are completely lag free, why don't you just look at what the good servers are doing correctly and compare them to the unplayable laggy ones?

Second question, will you please consider merging servers soon? or at least offer free transfers off of the "dead" servers, yes I know none of the servers are literally dead with 0 players, but several of them are ghost towns especially when it comes to level cap content (Instances/raids/pvp), for example in the group of EU servers, Sirannon and Laurelin could merge together and they would still not be as big as Evernight and barely as big as Gwaihir, our characters are here, are we meant to spend 15,000+lp (In my case, 6 characters if I only took the important ones) just to transfer them off of a server that has died over time through no fault of our own so we can actually engage in endgame content more frequently & easily? Let us freely move to a populated server while those who enjoy these quiet servers can stay if they like, if there are no merges planned soon.

New players:
150 levels is crazy, think of the amount of content (questing) that is, how many new players really make it to 150 and try to integrate into endgame? grinding out 150 levels as a new player can be very lonely, not what you want in an mmo, can you please add an optional way for new players to reach the current expansion more quickly? without having to reach into their wallet which is extremely off-putting.

Virtues:
Speaking of things that are crazy, virtues, will these ever be made account wide?

Raids & Instances:
I heard you plan to move away from the 5 tier system but I can't find confirmation, is that true?

Will you ever add the real instance finder back into the game? Or a board where we can post our own raid/instance groups, what we're doing & what we're looking for, and then allow people to apply to it?


Thanks
 
I

istvana

This *is* the other place.
Not being a developer I will not comment on any of your requests for information. I will comment where you ask the developers to do certain things since they might as well see differing opinions. Not that these points haven't already been debated ad nauseum.

1. Few of us want forced mergers - at least comments on the forums are mostly negative. This crowds us into larger and more laggy servers and eliminates the chance for those who like smaller servers to simply play on the less crowded servers. I agree with the consensus which can usually be summed up as "terrible idea". Not to even discuss loss of names and kinship names and houses and .....

Free transfers wouldn't hurt me so I have no comment on that. Other than to say that the smaller population servers are far from dead, and often have a lot going on. Maybe not as much in the way of endgame content as Evernight or Arkenstone but one cannot reasonably expect every server to focus on the same things.

2. No 150 levels is not crazy and there is nothing that needs to be done here. LOTRO is a game focused on enjoying Middle Earth and the stories - it is not a game where the focus is an "endgame". If it was we would have gotten the level 150 endgame a whole lot faster than we did. What to do at level 150 is important to we older players that have countless high level characters - but not something that a new player needs to reach in a month - or a year. If all a new player cares about is getting to "endgame" very fast there are two choices. Pay for a Valar (30% off this week) or play a game like WoW where the design *is* to let a new player get to "endgame" very fast.

Changing LOTRO to become WoW-lite would be a disaster. We cannot compete with the high budget MMOs on *their* turf we need to compete on *our* turf.

3. For the love of the Valar please no account-wide virtues. You might as well make them like trait points where new characters get them with no need to do anything but gain levels. New characters need things to work on other than just gaining levels and gear.
 
H

Harvain

Well-known member
It's doubtful we'll be doing a Server Merge unless something occurs for such in 2025 or Beyond. Even if a "Server Merge" would be considered, they could only really consider Merging 1 or 2 Servers for both NA & EU at best.

A big factor for LOTRO is that it has the "Seasonal" type of way Players are around. When there is Major Updates, Festivals, etc. Player Numbers are higher, between these moments the Player Numbers are smaller. Even if for example say 1 Server was Merged for NA & EU, the overall numbers per Server would only see a minimal increase for the remaining for NA & EU.

There is also the factor that it would be unwise to do another Server Merge unless there is a process that ensures Closed Server Transfers would be able to work. Which right now at least for the Previous Closed Servers, it doesn't seem like this is a thing at the moment. If the SSG LOTRO Team were able to get a System for such working at least for "Future Server Merges" than it could make this idea viable. Otherwise it's just inviting more Negative Feedback when X amount of Accounts find their Characters are in limbo. We don't need a "Closed Server Transfers Limbo 2.0".
 
I

istvana

This *is* the other place.
Harvain said:
unless there is a process that ensures Closed Server Transfers would be able to work.
Click to expand...

1. Not an issue if they do a merger. A merger combines two servers into one and every character on either server becomes a character on the combined server. There are, of course, issues with names and houses and kins and overcrowding but a merger is not at all the same thing as shutting a server down and offering free transfers off of it.

2. If they ever shut a server down outright without a merger again - either of two approaches will assure that there is no issue. Either do what they have done most recently and wipe all characters that weren't moved or force-transfer all characters that are not moved by the player to a destination server chosen by SSG.
 
Oghren

Oghren

Well-known member
istvana said:
1. Few of us want forced mergers - at least comments on the forums are mostly negative. This crowds us into larger and more laggy servers and eliminates the chance for those who like smaller servers to simply play on the less crowded servers. I agree with the consensus which can usually be summed up as "terrible idea". Not to even discuss loss of names and kinship names and houses and .....
Click to expand...
That is not his point.

The word 'server' is used rather loosely on the forum. Technically, a server is either a software process performing some function, or a hardware box powering that process. The thing you pick during logon, say Gladden, is way more complicated than either. SSG sticks to the term 'game world' for a reason. A game world consists of a number hardware boxes running dozens of (software) servers, most running parts or layers of landscape areas. When you travel the landscape you occasionally hop to another of those servers, and that is what the server number in the /loc indicates.

@Eth : it is not a matter of simply looking at the technical configuration. Area design, player population and player behavior all play big parts here.
 
Oghren

Oghren

Well-known member
istvana said:
1. Not an issue if they do a merger. A merger combines two servers into one and every character on either server becomes a character on the combined server. There are, of course, issues with names and houses and kins and overcrowding but a merger is not at all the same thing as shutting a server down and offering free transfers off of it.
Click to expand...
Big issue if they do a merge.

If you have a kin with many members that left the game, but sometimes do return and pick the game back up, you want those returning players to be able to find you. After a world merge they won't, if it is handled like the previous one.
 
N

Neinda

Well-known member
Oghren said:
Big issue if they do a merge.

If you have a kin with many members that left the game, but sometimes do return and pick the game back up, you want those returning players to be able to find you. After a world merge they won't, if it is handled like the previous one.
Click to expand...
This problem could be solved if they automatically transfer people from the dead servers after a specified time frame. They could then offer the person a onetime free transfer. It would be better than those who lost characters and items from the last merge.
 
LeftMono

LeftMono

Well-known member
Eth said:
why don't you just look at what the good servers are doing correctly and compare them to the unplayable laggy ones?
Click to expand...
Dear Professional: If you're having a problem, just fix it — it's that simple. Sincerely, Amateur. ?
 
Erei

Erei

Well-known member
Eth said:
New players:
150 levels is crazy, think of the amount of content (questing) that is, how many new players really make it to 150 and try to integrate into endgame? grinding out 150 levels as a new player can be very lonely, not what you want in an mmo, can you please add an optional way for new players to reach the current expansion more quickly? without having to reach into their wallet which is extremely off-putting.
Click to expand...
LOTRO is a lot about the travel less so about the destination. An optional way for newbie to skip to endgame would mean that :
1/they'd be super confused about the story
2/they wouldn't understand many mechanics introduced over time (legendary item, mounted combat, skirmish, essence....). While some are less used than others, that's just a MASSIVE gameplay dump on their lap.
3/they wouldn't know how to play their class.
4/it would be incredibly frontloaded and confusing. Imagine starting a new game that has been out for 17years, and get ALL the class skills, perk point, on top of ALL the mechanics introduced in 17 years. Day one.

People quit over that kind of stuff. Some people opened the Gift of the valar by mistake (the freebie they did), found themselves max lvl, flooded with many stuff and mail and confused as hell.
 
Orion

Orion

Lead Designer
Eth said:
Hello, just some questions I have if any devs have free time to answer

Servers:
If you type /loc while in game, you'll get a message that begins with this "You are on <server name> server 54" focusing on the server number here, going over different borders in game or going to other zones will place you on a different server, for example in this case Bree is server 54, but if I run out of the gate until I hit a zone border and go into Chetwood and do /loc again "You are on <server name> server 57" now, some of these servers are extremely laggy, and some run perfectly fine (This is why in most cases of someone complaining about unplayable server lag, another person is usually around to say "I'm not lagging it's fine" ), it doesn't take much to create a sheet with the good and bad server numbers on them (useful if you want to create a lag free raid) but my question is why do some of these servers perform so badly while others are completely lag free, why don't you just look at what the good servers are doing correctly and compare them to the unplayable laggy ones?
Click to expand...
The tech behind this is far more complex than it appears at first blush. While it may appear as simple as - move players to xx server which is not lagging - there is more going on than can be outlined in a simple response to a post. It is also not my area of expertise, though this is something that I hope we can start talking about a little more frankly in the near future.

Eth said:
Second question, will you please consider merging servers soon? or at least offer free transfers off of the "dead" servers, yes I know none of the servers are literally dead with 0 players, but several of them are ghost towns especially when it comes to level cap content (Instances/raids/pvp), for example in the group of EU servers, Sirannon and Laurelin could merge together and they would still not be as big as Evernight and barely as big as Gwaihir, our characters are here, are we meant to spend 15,000+lp (In my case, 6 characters if I only took the important ones) just to transfer them off of a server that has died over time through no fault of our own so we can actually engage in endgame content more frequently & easily? Let us freely move to a populated server while those who enjoy these quiet servers can stay if they like, if there are no merges planned soon.
Click to expand...
We are not planning anything along these lines, to my knowledge.

Eth said:
New players:
150 levels is crazy, think of the amount of content (questing) that is, how many new players really make it to 150 and try to integrate into endgame? grinding out 150 levels as a new player can be very lonely, not what you want in an mmo, can you please add an optional way for new players to reach the current expansion more quickly? without having to reach into their wallet which is extremely off-putting.
Click to expand...
This is a discussion we have. It is also a difficult problem to solve easily.

That said; we think the bigger problem than the 150 levels is the inability for higher-level players to aid lower-level players without trivializing the content. If you look back to the roadmap we posted earlier this year you will see a note about Kinships. Without getting into too much details, because there is not enough to share right now, this is the timeline where we are looking to address some of those concerns.

Eth said:
Virtues:
Speaking of things that are crazy, virtues, will these ever be made account wide?
Click to expand...
I cannot speak directly to this, yet. Virtues are one of a small number of evergreen systems we utilize and we do need to maintain some aspects of these evergreen systems. There are ideas we have discussed., though nothing concrete. Yet.
Eth said:
Raids & Instances:
I heard you plan to move away from the 5 tier system but I can't find confirmation, is that true?
Click to expand...
It was a thought. It remains a thought. Players have expectations and we do our best to maintain those expectations. The current raid and instance update contains five tiers of difficulty. I mentioned a possibility of reducing the tiers, but it is not decided, nor is it changing in the near future.

Eth said:
Will you ever add the real instance finder back into the game? Or a board where we can post our own raid/instance groups, what we're doing & what we're looking for, and then allow people to apply to it?
Click to expand...
Another subject we have discussed. I liked our old instance finder. (I'll admit I'm a little biased, since I designed it...back in the proverbial day.) There are no current plans to address or adjust this.
 
I

istvana

This *is* the other place.
Ditto on the thank you.

Orion said:
That said; we think the bigger problem than the 150 levels is the inability for higher-level players to aid lower-level players without trivializing the content. If you look back to the roadmap we posted earlier this year you will see a note about Kinships. Without getting into too much details, because there is not enough to share right now, this is the timeline where we are looking to address some of those concerns.
Click to expand...

This brings to mind something that might in some way resemble a mentor type system. That would certainly be welcome if the level scaling worked even reasonably well.
 
M

Maryna

Well-known member
The old finder did allow us to form a group ourselves then all take whatever bonus the finder provided, that was about it. No bonus, no point using it. If pugs can beat the content it ain't worth doing was our kin's take. T2CM or nothing - so nothing it was , they all left.

I've seen enterprising burglars filling a healing role with conjunctions but a finder can't reveal such expertise. When it got to the point in six man pugs where I'm trying to fill the heal role on my mini and getting punctured by arrows or the "Tank" can't take a hit nor the aggro and you have to tell the group to sit in the corner to give you 5 minutes to go red and nuke/kite the room clear, finders will never work at the cutting edge unless combined with a past performance metric in that particular content and tier. How many are there only to be carried for a deed unlock?
 
Pharone

Pharone

Twitch Streamer
Eth said:
New players:
150 levels is crazy, think of the amount of content (questing) that is, how many new players really make it to 150 and try to integrate into endgame? grinding out 150 levels as a new player can be very lonely, not what you want in an mmo, can you please add an optional way for new players to reach the current expansion more quickly? without having to reach into their wallet which is extremely off-putting.
Click to expand...
As someone for whom came in to (came back to really, but after 11 years) Lotro a little over a year ago now, I can relate to what you are saying here to a great extent. The thing that I have found is that Lotro is a very different kind of MMORPG compared to your typical MMO.

Coming to Lotro after playing other MMOs, it is kind of a culture shock because here there is really 2 games in one which most MMOs do not have. You have the story-based RPG and then you have the MMORPG.

The MMORPG aspect of the game is the familiar zone of the industry. Get levels, get gear, learn your role, run dungeons, and conquer raids in a guild (called a kinship in this game). That is all there in this game including the complex min/max aspects of character development (LI, Virtues, etc). In that aspect, 150 levels seems like a long road to walk to catch-up with current game.

Then you have the story-based RPG part of the game. This is where Lotro is unique in the industry. While all MMORPGs have a story of some sort, the vast majority of them just have fluff context behind "kill 10 rats" rinse and repeat. They generally have a larger over arching story line, but for the most part, they focus on kill your way to the end game, and then the good stuff starts. Lotro is different in a good way when it comes to story.

In Lotro, the story side of the game is 16 years of content to enjoy rather than 150 levels of content to catch-up. Not only will you find a massive over arching story line, but you will also find a lot of side stories and reoccurring run ins with side characters of the story. There are lots of little story arches here and there. You will find that the quest text for a lot of the "kill 10 rats" in Lotro is actually worth reading.

Long story short, even if they put in ways to get to the end game quicker (with out having to pay for it), I think that you might find that at a later date, it is worth playing an alt character to stroll through the thousands of stories in the game that aren't at the end game.

I'm not saying don't get to end game and have fun raiding. I'm just saying, don't forget there is a story-based RPG woven in to this MMORPG that most MMORPGs do not even come close to having. It might be worth enjoying the content on a second character later after you have beaten the end game content and are waiting for "the next expansion".

Either way, welcome to Middle Earth. I hope you enjoy your stay :)

Orion said:
The tech behind this is far more complex than it appears at first blush. While it may appear as simple as - move players to xx server which is not lagging - there is more going on than can be outlined in a simple response to a post. It is also not my area of expertise, though this is something that I hope we can start talking about a little more frankly in the near future.
Click to expand...
Seeing as SSG is under the DBG umbrella, it might be worth reaching out to DPG (also under the DBG umbrella) to see if they can pass on some information on how they accomplished this task in EverQuest.

They added instancing (called picks) in Everquest (25 year old game, so definitely based on C++) and in Everquest 2 when they implemented a PvP server that your character could temporarily join from their normal PvE server for PvP battles.

I know no two systems are alike, but possibly they could offer some knowledge transfer of issues they ran in to and how they got past them.
 
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