Shields?

[Sokordvid]

Hello with the update we can obtain the trait in yellow line to 'block with two handed' , with spending 1 point. This is accessible to red and blue.

Is the Guardian's iconic shield going to become a niche? Solely needed for tanking specific bosses at end game for some bonus stats? Because, why else care for sword and board? You lose damage when having a shield and gain so little defensive tools.

Also, taking the sword and board path down the red line, there are many undesirable traits.

If anything, this should have been a capstone thing in yellow line.


So, if shields are continuously becoming less valuable in lotro, what could be done to improve them without altering current mechanics?
Big stats. Biggest stats for heavy shields, smaller stats for light shields. This is justified in that shields contribute actively to the defense of the entire body, opposed to a piece of boots that are simply worn and confined to protecting the feet.
Shields could possibly copy and increase the stats on all worn armor pieces.

Grumpy dwarf

 

[Zipfile]

Is the Guardian's iconic shield going to become a niche?

No. Stats are too good for tanking.

 

[Orion]

Hello with the update we can obtain the trait in yellow line to 'block with two handed' , with spending 1 point. This is accessible to red and blue.

Is the Guardian's iconic shield going to become a niche? Solely needed for tanking specific bosses at end game for some bonus stats? Because, why else care for sword and board? You lose damage when having a shield and gain so little defensive tools.

Considering the benefits you receive via stats on a Shield - the inherent and additive - you will never be the tank you can be while holding a two-handed weapon. You will not come close.

Also, taking the sword and board path down the red line, there are many undesirable traits.

Sword and Board in Keen Blade is not meant to be the optimal path - but is certainly an optional one. If you are looking to make a Sword and Board DPSer you will likely want to spend more heavily in Blue and less so in Yellow.

If anything, this should have been a capstone thing in yellow line.

The ability to block with your two-handed weapons moved a little deeper in the yellow tree.

So, if shields are continuously becoming less valuable in lotro, what could be done to improve them without altering current mechanics?
Big stats. Biggest stats for heavy shields, smaller stats for light shields. This is justified in that shields contribute actively to the defense of the entire body, opposed to a piece of boots that are simply worn and confined to protecting the feet.
Shields could possibly copy and increase the stats on all worn armor pieces.

Grumpy dwarf

Shields already do this and I would argue are imperative for the Defender of the Free Guardian.

 

[Drarin]

Considering the benefits you receive via stats on a Shield - the inherent and additive - you will never be the tank you can be while holding a two-handed weapon. You will not come close.

So why have the option at all then?

 

[JohnMHammer]

Sword and Board in Keen Blade is not meant to be the optimal path - but is certainly an optional one. If you are looking to make a Sword and Board DPSer you will likely want to spend more heavily in Blue and less so in Yellow.

If by "optimal" you mean "the highest damage" that's fine. But it isn't optimal in Red mainly because there is a trait that offers more than twice the benefit to a Guardian wielding a two-handed weapon instead of a weapon/shield combo. That wasn't necessary, a two-hander already offered more damage vs a weapon/shield combo which is why so many Red Guardians chose that option. There were good reasons to go Red and weapon/shield, it was the "optimal" choice in many situations; but not anymore. That one trait is now pushing the two-hander option for Red and is the sole reason why weapon/shield isn't a reasonable choice for Red anymore.

I used to frequently go weapon/shield in Red because I was willing to accept the trade of lower damage for more defense and other stats in many situations. Now, if I'm going weapon/shield there is no point in being Red: That one trait tells me I need to be using a two-hander in Red – if I am going to use a weapon/shield because I want access to the shield skills or the extra defense/stats, I am speccing Blue.

I don't need to deal with the -50% self-healing debuff in Blue, either. Red only has two self-heals anyway, Catch a Breath and Warrior's Heart, they both have significant coolodowns, so unless I'm taking my max level Guardian to the Shire to finish up slayer deeds there's almost no point in speccing Red. Is Red better for raiders now? Probably, they certainly aren't going to even consider using a weapon/shield combo in Red spec and the self-healing penalty doesn't matter at all. For the 99% of the time that I'm not raiding but tackling non-trivial content, Red spec is a bad choice especially with a weapon/shield combo instead of a two-hander.

 

[Dornvald]

Hello with the update we can obtain the trait in yellow line to 'block with two handed' , with spending 1 point. This is accessible to red and blue.

Is the Guardian's iconic shield going to become a niche? Solely needed for tanking specific bosses at end game for some bonus stats? Because, why else care for sword and board? You lose damage when having a shield and gain so little defensive tools.

Also, taking the sword and board path down the red line, there are many undesirable traits.

If anything, this should have been a capstone thing in yellow line.


So, if shields are continuously becoming less valuable in lotro, what could be done to improve them without altering current mechanics?
Big stats. Biggest stats for heavy shields, smaller stats for light shields. This is justified in that shields contribute actively to the defense of the entire body, opposed to a piece of boots that are simply worn and confined to protecting the feet.
Shields could possibly copy and increase the stats on all worn armor pieces.

Grumpy dwarf

I always thought that guardian should be about sword & board (or axe & board, my dwarven friends), even in the dps line, and that this is what defines the class fantasy. I wrote this in the discussion thread long before even the betas went live, and I got little positive response from the guardian community. They love their two-handers I guess. I'm not maining a guardian and never will, so that's ok with me. It's just that I don't understand it, to be honest. We already have the champion for this kind of gameplay.

 

[Heno08]

I always thought that guardian should be about sword & board (or axe & board, my dwarven friends), even in the dps line, and that this is what defines the class fantasy. I wrote this in the discussion thread long before even the betas went live, and I got little positive response from the guardian community. They love their two-handers I guess. I'm not maining a guardian and never will, so that's ok with me. It's just that I don't understand it, to be honest. We already have the champion for this kind of gameplay.

If a Guardian could do similar damage to a champion with just a sword and shield that would way to OP, as they would also be getting a ton of defensive stats from a shield; there would be no downside. Given the way the game works forging the shield for more dps is a balanced approach.

And the class lore is based off Samwise, who had neither a two handed sword nor shield, just a frying pan! Guardian class fantasy is more of a mentality, not a strict: ‘you can only wield this weapon and nothing else!’

 

[Dornvald]

If a Guardian could do similar damage to a champion with just a sword and shield that would way to OP, as they would also be getting a ton of defensive stats from a shield; there would be no downside. Given the way the game works forging the shield for more dps is a balanced approach.

And the class lore is based off Samwise, who had neither a two handed sword nor shield, just a frying pan! Guardian class fantasy is more of a mentality, not a strict: ‘you can only wield this weapon and nothing else!’

I won't go through this discussion again, because what you write is roughly the same argument that I got in the old thread. Of course offensive and defensive abilities must be balanced, but this is no impossible task in my book. Maybe it won't work well in endgame, but it should in landscape. But, again, I don't main a guardian, so if the guardian community is ok with the changes then that's fine. It just lowers the chance I'll ever be playing a guardian as an alt to near zero, because I already have a champion and I doubt a two-hander guardian can come close to the fun of shing-shing champion play. And that's what I would expect of a warrior wielding a very large axe.

 

[Sokordvid]

Just done some testing the other day, and I think the inflation of the shield indeed doesn't come per say from shield not giving enough survivability, but two handed offering too much survivability. And improving shields wouldn't be a solution at all*. I estimate that two-handed would be the superior choice for almost all content, save the exception of endgame group/raid content. (*correcting my earlier post, I used to be red or yellow sword and board, getting adjusted to blue sword and board).

So yes, testing. Like @JohnMHammer, I used to run most content in red sword and board, or yellow sword and board. I believe the Red-sword and board pathway is gutted. Survivability impaired, forced to take 5 points in heavy weapons training. The core strength of sword and board was AoE, and survivability with support of bleeds, whereas red now cuts self-heals, and focuses mostly on single target. Going deep in yellow improves damage of AoE and gives overall more value then going in blue. I feel that sword and board really contradicts the tendency of red line.

So how about blue? Basically immortality compared to my previous builds. Investing in yellow seems to give more value than having to invest 14 points to get a bleed from sweeping cut.
Pulled an entire instance of mobs in yesterdays FI. Danced around pressing whirling retaliation a few times. Then ended up with the bosses, which, each took about 10-15 minutes to kill. So the AoE and survivability is well set in stone here, just ST is non existent.

I figured it is perhaps better to just auto attack, and click a heal every few minutes, meanwhile play a game or something.

Can't say I'm too pleased with either pathway from a sword-n-board perspective. But I'm thinking to switch some legacies, focus on blue side, and see if improving shield damage (legacy) in combination with spikes at least speeds up the process.

 

[Zipfile]

The core strength of sword and board was AoE

There was no situation where 1H/S was stronger damage-wise than 2H.

Also, "forced" to trait Heavy Weapons Training....okay.

I guess we can ignore the fact that a good amount of traits now work with Shield-procs as well, most notably being Tenderize.

 

[Normok]

To help us 1 hand and shield dps folks out, I feel like they should move improved shield spikes to the yellow line. Orion mentioned in a developer diary about moving it to the blue trait set bonus instead of making it trainable. I think it serve better to have it accessible to all builds instead of locked in blue.
And while they are at it, might as well move shield smash and follow through up a tier or two.

These changes would allow some good 1 hand and shield damage without having to either spec blue or sink half our skill points into blue just for a few perks.

 

[JohnMHammer]

The Champion Trait Weapons Master offers different bonuses depending on whether the Champion is using a two-hander or a pair of one-handers. Which is better? I'm sure there is a consensus one way or the other; however, the bonuses are intended to be different but equivalent.

The Guardian Trait Heavy Weapons offers more than double the bonus to a Guardian using a two-hander vs a Guardian using a weapon/shield combo. The bonus given the weapon/shield combo isn't different and just arguably not as good, it is quantitatively less than half.

Easy fix, pick one:
1- Heavy Weapons adds +1% skill damage per tier (5 max). That's it. Just remove the extra +1%/tier overall damage boost when using a two-hander.
2- Heavy Weapons adds +1% skill damage per tier (5 max) and +1%/tier overall damage boost. Basically, the overall damage boost applies without regard to what's equipped.
3- Heavy Weapons adds +1% skill damage per tier (5 max), +1%/tier overall damage boost when using a two-handed weapon, +2%/tier damage for block response skills (i.e. Shield Swipe and Bash, plus Shield-smash if treated into it) when using a weapon/shield combo.

(1) sets things back to the way they were before u37. Most people will still use a two-hander when specced Red because the damage is higher and that's the main thing you care about if you spec Red. The trade-off remains the same as it does today in u37: You get more damage with a two-hander and you get more defense and stats and access to the shield skills with a weapon/shield combo; but there's no artificial push to use a two-hander because of an unbalanced bonus in this one trait.

(2) sets things equal again, but with the new +1%/tier overall damage applying regardless of equipment choice.

(3) might not be equal because the bonuses are different. Using a two-hander will still receive a larger overall damage boost from this trait but using a weapon/shield combo will provide additional damage to the shield skills. Which is better? For pure DPS, you'll still want a two-hander. But you won't feel as if you are missing out on more than half the power of this trait when you decide to run with a weapon/shield combo.

 

[Sokordvid]

There was no situation where 1H/S was stronger damage-wise than 2H.

and never was that topic of debate or discussion to change that... I review sword and board viability to new situation and old. Then I think red and yellow guardians before with sword and board were in a significantly better shape, damage and survivability wise. Blue will be significantly slower paced or dull.

 

[Zipfile]

Then I think red and yellow guardians before with sword and board were in a significantly better shape, damage and survivability wise.

No.

 

[Sokordvid]

Considering the benefits you receive via stats on a Shield - the inherent and additive - you will never be the tank you can be while holding a two-handed weapon. You will not come close.

Sword and Board in Keen Blade is not meant to be the optimal path - but is certainly an optional one. If you are looking to make a Sword and Board DPSer you will likely want to spend more heavily in Blue and less so in Yellow.

Hello Orion, thanks for the insight.

Nothing beats a guardian with a shield, yes. Agreed. Most content, 50% more damage probably outvalues the shield though, if all you're losing is some stats. I expect tanking for groups is very possible from red/yellow approach, just picking up pledge from blue and some mits. It was viable before, it just became even better due to inclusion of block, and the extra damage.

This is how two handeds getting better for most content. Value of shields placed to niche situations, end game raids.

Hope that clarifies my perspective on shield inflation.


As far as sword and board, in landscape and general enjoyment - a different discussion

Do you imagine best way for sword and board damage wise is to take red - then go into blue? Or rather go blue directly? The benefits to me seem very minimal with taking red. The reduced healing from self-heals, is a poor trade off: significantly impaired survivability. This is more easily justified if your damage output is extra amplified. Now this is what I mean by extension, the two-handed really extends on that concept - kill things before they kill you, whereas the sword/board drives you in the other way.

Sword and Board was never truly about damage, or damage comparable to DPS classes, it's a niche alternative playstyle, the survivability makes it so that you could run into a large camp of mobs, and come out victorious. Before we had three viable pathways to build into. And I'd find the damage was sufficient to make landscaping or 3mans enjoyable

A)Blue into red - extra shield skills, less damage, most survivability.. --- don't really need the extra tank stuff for landscaping though.
B)Red into blue - similar (also picking up shield skills), but more focus on parry/bleeds, ok survivability
C)Yellow into red, bit of blue - strong focus on AoE and survivability, but no benefit from shield skills

Now this should be considered relative to one another, not comparing to a true dps class as some seem to do.

Starting red seems the logical point to either try and recreate B or C. Then it seems yellow is just too good, getting more value per trait point. Effectively, B/C are consolidated into one line that would be in between the two. But it is seeming that the old damage and survivability in original C is not obtained partially due to loss of self-heal. Nor getting too much benefit from shield skills, unless you commit spending many points in blue.

Starting blue was historically logic for sword and board, as it had the shield smash in it. I'm rebuilding this idea picking up shield legacies. Again, when investing in red --- there is little value per trait point, opposed to taking stuff from yellow. Some traits, costing double, giving only half the benefit if you use sword and board.

To me it seems that these two new build paths we are given, are extreme. Gutted survivability versus extreme survivability. In that light, I think the possibilities for red pathway should be evaluated.

 

[Zipfile]

I expect tanking for groups is very possible from red/yellow approach, just picking up pledge from blue and some mits. It was viable before, it just became even better due to inclusion of block, and the extra damage.

No.

 

[Lexelot]

I like the aesthetic of sword and shield, but that’s why I play Warden. You have your whole ST/AOE toolkit baked in. It would be nice to have a cosmetic option for dpsing shield on Guardian, but I know that will never happen.

As for the comment of Champions… they may as well be using two shields at the moment because a wet fart does more damage than both dw and 2h.

 

[Sokordvid]

I did some testing from Blue in yellow again, skipping red skills. Focusing around Shield-Smash, instead of whirling retaliation / sweeping cut. The shield legacies here help tremendously and spikes. I believe this build surpasses the three older builds I tried in terms of damage and survivability - it's a bit difficult to see with the deflated stats.

That might also mean that in order to get most damage in red from sword/board perspective, skipping red points, and going deep in blue could be worth it. Not sure if that would really give you significantly more damage than starting from blue directly.

 

[Tiaasnin]

Even tho we have lower stats with a 2h weapon i wish that we could also use the shield skills when we get the 2h block trait. i dont mind having lower stats but would really be nice to have access to all the skills with a 2h weapon, even if they could have a nerf by not using shield

 

[JohnMHammer]

Experimenting with various builds in u37.0.1: Many Blue skills will not work without a shield, even when spaced into Yellow's Light-touched.

Requiring a shield for these Blue skills really didn't matter before the u37 Guardian revamp because it was not possible for Blue Guardians to block without a shield. Blue Guardians can now put one or more points into Yellow's Light-touched trait to be able to block without a shield.

Certainly some skills have names which seem to imply shield use but I don't think this "flavor text" should control which skills require a shield to be equipped.

For example: Fortification can only be earned by using shield skills. Without a shield, even with Light-touched, shield skills cannot be used. So any skill which requires Fortification such as Break Ranks cannot be – and should not be able to be – used. Shield-Taunt is another skill which currently cannot be used without a shield and should not be usable without a shield because it requires a recent use of Shield-swipe to activate it, it is part of the shield skill chain.

However, Protection by the Shield currently requires a shield to be equipped. There is no requirement for Fortification or any other effect which requires a shield to generate. Therefore, Protection by the Shield should be usable by a Blue Guardian even when a shield is not equipped. There are other skills which should not require a shield to be equipped.

This will require a case-by-case decision by the development team. Fortunately, the list of skills affected is fairly small.