Read more about the rest of the year and beyond in The Lord of the Rings Online!

[Karac Avalron]

Could be all or any of that, but here's the bottom line.

If SSG think it is a bad thing for a player to have a fully loaded LI in the first week of a new level cap - that's fine.
They think it so bad, they removed the ability to advance grind, so that people cannot store what they need to do it - that's also fine.

. . . . .

They sell the very thing that they are claiming is bad for the game. Something wrong with that picture.

If it's bad for the game, or bad for players . . . don't sell it. Very simple concept.

You aren't wrong, you just continue to leave out one critical component to your narrative. The players choice to consume it. So yes there is something wrong with the picture, but to see it clearly you have to look at the entire painting.

SSG is selling, the very thing they are claiming is bad for the game, to people who acknowledge it is bad for the game, but buy it anyway.

That, is the complete picture, at least the one I see.

 

[Hu-Tao]

I don't know how to make myself more clear, but, here is it. I'm not disillusioned. My eyes are wide open, and I know what I'm willing to put up with, and what I'm not. I pay my way via a sub and content packs, and occasional supporter packs. Content and fluff, I'm fine with buying (if I want it), same for storage or account travel skills etc, but I never pay for character power/progression. That sort of progression should be earned IMO, and nothing should be instantly available, at a price. Anything that can be bought to make a character more powerful, is P2W.

i got all of that. If anything that does add to my point of the Lotro players being disillusioned with Lotro and treating it like it’s some higher game above every other MMO where it’s basically just another MMO but with the lotr IP.

Games have had pay to skip grind for years now and people are fine with it. People here act as if everyone has hours of time but they really don’t. Notwithstanding that I doubt anyone even uses MC that way (again see my last comment), if some do then why is it a problem? Becuase they opted to pay money instead of spend time doing content? Isn’t that what players were whining before about cosmetics from coffers? They look good but weren’t earned but paid? If we’re ok with that now but now a pay to skip button (include velars then while we’re at it) then this just seems like a selection bias. By your logic, the VIP should be P2W but were apparently fine with that.

I‘m naming examples but the point is we really are overreacting to another change which was way overdue and something games have been doing for so long that to argue about it now is just confusing.

BTW, there isn’t a problem with leveling LIs. People literally complain all the time about having too much ancient script or hoards of coffers from reward tracks they haven’t used, and new players hardly ever care yet apparently there is a problem for it now that SSG is selling? Can we please just calm down already this makes very little sense as an argument. There are actual problems the game has we would be better directing our focus on, or better yet, stop playing if we feel so strongly about the changes.

 

[Louvine]

They sell the very thing that they are claiming is bad for the game. Something wrong with that picture.

If it's bad for the game, or bad for players . . . don't sell it. Very simple concept.

It can be very bad for the game, but they don’t care if they can make money on it, essence of SSGs entire business model.

 

[Louvine]

You aren't wrong, you just continue to leave out one critical component to your narrative. The players choice to consume it. So yes there is something wrong with the picture, but to see it clearly you have to look at the entire painting.

SSG is selling, the very thing they are claiming is bad for the game, to people who acknowledge it is bad for the game, but buy it anyway.

That, is the complete picture, at least the one I see.

Quite.

If no one bought it, they wouldn’t sell it. Plus I really don’t think the MC levelling up is the real issue here, only an idiot is spending 100LP for 1 enhancement rank.

 

[HappyBudgy]

You aren't wrong, you just continue to leave out one critical component to your narrative. The players choice to consume it. So yes there is something wrong with the picture, but to see it clearly you have to look at the entire painting.

SSG is selling, the very thing they are claiming is bad for the game, to people who acknowledge it is bad for the game, but buy it anyway.

That, is the complete picture, at least the one I see.

There's more in the picture:

a. Using 'people' here is too general - not all people -

not the people
- who had already earned their upgrades via regular channels prior to launch
- who don't care about their LIs on landscape
- who will now play the game and earn the upgrades
- who deeply reject these MC options
- who don't have money for this

and there is also a group of players who don't see anything wrong with buying these items at all

Those who will buy these upgrades straight after launch are (1) those who do not even want to earn them after launch - they want their goodies 'now', and (2) those who start the grind and give up, but still want a maxed LI. Desired response: click the MC button.

b. And then the developer takes away the option for people to use available game mechanics to acquire these upgrades prior to launch, thus avoiding the MC buttons in their entirety. Cause imagine... that behavioral trend could become popular.


My conclusion is: this change did not happen to make people play, this change is meant so people will pay before they play.

One side of this equation has control over: game contents, the grinds, the monetization, the restrictions, the locks, the expiry of items. <- united front
Those on the other side have five options: play (grind), pay, a mixture of both, avoid/ignore, or leave. <- divided along a variety of lines

 

[Karac Avalron]

There's more in the picture:

a. Using 'people' here is too general - not all people -

not the people
- who had already earned their upgrades via regular channels prior to launch
- who don't care about their LIs on landscape
- who will now play the game and earn the upgrades
- who deeply reject these MC options
- who don't have money for this

and there is also a group of players who don't see anything wrong with buying these items at all

Those who will buy these upgrades straight after launch are (1) those who do not even want to earn them after launch - they want their goodies 'now', and (2) those who start the grind and give up, but still want a maxed LI. Desired response: click the MC button.

b. And then the developer takes away the option for people to use available game mechanics to acquire these upgrades prior to launch, thus avoiding the MC buttons in their entirety. Cause imagine... that behavioral trend could become popular.


My conclusion is: this change did not happen to make people play, this change is meant so people will pay before they play.

One side of this equation has control over: game contents, the grinds, the monetization, the restrictions, the locks, the expiry of items. <- united front
Those on the other side have five options: play (grind), pay, a mixture of both, avoid/ignore, or leave. <- divided along a variety of lines

Its context when referring to "people". Generalizations in a conversation of this nature are normally a given, otherwise every sentence would need the appropriate caveats, which you illustrate. I am unwilling to do that, I don't care enough about the issue to create a dossier illustrating specific groups of players.

IN GENERAL, the lotro player base is not expanding it is the same group of people, purchasing similar content to prior content that maintains the game as is. SSG, understanding this dynamic, GENERALLY, is creating the conditions by which they can continue to monetize that group. That is the point here.

One of the weaknesses of the LOTRO community, which you have aptly pointed out is the intellectual exercises attempting to make a simple issue more complex. LOTRO isn't complex, SSG isn't complex, the player base GENERALLY isn't complex. The concept isn't complex, SSG is trying to extract as much as it can from a concentrated, entrenched player base that has endured a year of **** ups, some of which make the top 10 list for the game and that is saying something.

I for one hope they soak all of you for as much as they can get. As a wise man once said, "Losers blame others to feel better, winners blame themselves to get better." I don't see a lot of people here taking responsibility for their choice to continue to consume the product they are railing on about, GENERALLY. Good luck.

 

[Karac Avalron]

Quite.

If no one bought it, they wouldn’t sell it. Plus I really don’t think the MC levelling up is the real issue here, only an idiot is spending 100LP for 1 enhancement rank.

Hi Lou, happy new year, tell Tristian I said hello.

Cheers

 

[HappyBudgy]

Its context when referring to "people". Generalizations in a conversation of this nature are normally a given, otherwise every sentence would need the appropriate caveats, which you illustrate. I am unwilling to do that, I don't care enough about the issue to create a dossier illustrating specific groups of players.

IN GENERAL, the lotro player base is not expanding it is the same group of people, purchasing similar content to prior content that maintains the game as is. SSG, understanding this dynamic, GENERALLY, is creating the conditions by which they can continue to monetize that group. That is the point here.

One of the weaknesses of the LOTRO community, which you have aptly pointed out is the intellectual exercises attempting to make a simple issue more complex. LOTRO isn't complex, SSG isn't complex, the player base GENERALLY isn't complex. The concept isn't complex, SSG is trying to extract as much as it can from a concentrated, entrenched player base that has endured a year of **** ups, some of which make the top 10 list for the game and that is saying something.

I for one hope they soak all of you for as much as they can get. As a wise man once said, "Losers blame others to feel better, winners blame themselves to get better." I don't see a lot of people here taking responsibility for their choice to continue to consume the product they are railing on about, GENERALLY. Good luck.

Reducing player behavior to “the same group buying similar content” while mocking any attempt to consider nuances isn’t clarity—it’s ignoring reality because neither you nor I nor any other player has data, and that’s exactly why analysis matters.

 

[Bone]

i got all of that. If anything that does add to my point of the Lotro players being disillusioned with Lotro and treating it like it’s some higher game above every other MMO where it’s basically just another MMO but with the lotr IP.

Games have had pay to skip grind for years now and people are fine with it. People here act as if everyone has hours of time but they really don’t. Notwithstanding that I doubt anyone even uses MC that way (again see my last comment), if some do then why is it a problem? Becuase they opted to pay money instead of spend time doing content? Isn’t that what players were whining before about cosmetics from coffers? They look good but weren’t earned but paid? If we’re ok with that now but now a pay to skip button (include velars then while we’re at it) then this just seems like a selection bias. By your logic, the VIP should be P2W but were apparently fine with that.

I‘m naming examples but the point is we really are overreacting to another change which was way overdue and something games have been doing for so long that to argue about it now is just confusing.

BTW, there isn’t a problem with leveling LIs. People literally complain all the time about having too much ancient script or hoards of coffers from reward tracks they haven’t used, and new players hardly ever care yet apparently there is a problem for it now that SSG is selling? Can we please just calm down already this makes very little sense as an argument. There are actual problems the game has we would be better directing our focus on, or better yet, stop playing if we feel so strongly about the changes.

Agreed 100%, well said.

 

[Arnenna]

Games have had pay to skip grind for years now and people are fine with it. People here act as if everyone has hours of time but they really don’t. Notwithstanding that I doubt anyone even uses MC that way (again see my last comment), if some do then why is it a problem? Becuase they opted to pay money instead of spend time doing content? Isn’t that what players were whining before about cosmetics from coffers? They look good but weren’t earned but paid? If we’re ok with that now but now a pay to skip button (include velars then while we’re at it) then this just seems like a selection bias. By your logic, the VIP should be P2W but were apparently fine with that.

Pay to skip and pay to win are two very different things. One, essentially allows a character to advance somewhere, or look good, or get somewhere, but their character doesn't get any stronger. The other is all about building character power. Knowing the difference is key here.

I‘m naming examples but the point is we really are overreacting to another change which was way overdue and something games have been doing for so long that to argue about it now is just confusing.

There is a reason why it is being brought up now and wasn't before.

BTW, there isn’t a problem with leveling LIs. People literally complain all the time about having too much ancient script or hoards of coffers from reward tracks they haven’t used, and new players hardly ever care yet apparently there is a problem for it now that SSG is selling?

They've always sold it, that's not new. It's always been player choice to instantly level up their LIs or not (whether that be during a new level cap or an LI uplift period), those mithril coins have been present since this iteration of LIs were introduced. The reason people haven't use mithril options before (though that's a maybe, at a stretch) is because they've had stores from coffers saved up, so no need. The difference now is, they have removed in game methods for doing it, claiming it's bad for the game, yet, they continue to sell it. That's a double standard in my book, sorry if you don't like that. It's like walking into a club, confiscating everyone's cigarettes, claiming they are bad, while running a tobacco shop in the corner.

Can we please just calm down already this makes very little sense as an argument. There are actual problems the game has we would be better directing our focus on, or better yet, stop playing if we feel so strongly about the changes.

It makes very little sense to you maybe, but it makes perfect sense to me. I'm fine with you directing your focus on other game issues, please do so. If I'm in support of it, I'll join you. As for stopping playing, that's one of the points I've raised. This change will induce that for some players.

 

[Arnenna]

You aren't wrong, you just continue to leave out one critical component to your narrative. The players choice to consume it. So yes there is something wrong with the picture, but to see it clearly you have to look at the entire painting.

SSG is selling, the very thing they are claiming is bad for the game, to people who acknowledge it is bad for the game, but buy it anyway.

That, is the complete picture, at least the one I see.

I didn't miss that out

My previous comment stipulated quite clearly, Saddest part is, some people will comply. And that's the long and short of it. Supply and demand. I'll never comply, they get enough dough out of me already. I'll leave before I pay for character power that should be earned. Though it seems some are fine with that concept. Hell, may as well sell raid gear in the store at this point. If it's ok to sell player power in the store because it will bring in revenue, there's their avenue to make a ton of it because players will lap it up (though not a penny of it will come from me).

SSG create the demand (which they have done with this change). Now they've monopolised the supply.

 

[Hu-Tao]

Pay to skip and pay to win are two very different things. One, essentially allows a character to advance somewhere, or look good, or get somewhere, but their character doesn't get any stronger. The other is all about building character power. Not knowing the difference is key here.

There is a reason why it is being brought up now and wasn't before.

They've always sold it, that's not new. It's always been player choice to instantly level up their LIs or not (whether that be during a new level cap or an LI uplift period), those mithril coins have been present since this iteration of LIs were introduced. The reason people haven't use mithril options before (though that's a maybe, at a stretch) is because they've had stores from coffers saved up, so no need). The difference now is, they have removed in game methods for doing it, claiming it's bad for the game, yet, they continue to sell it. That's a double standard in my book, sorry if you don't like that. It's like walking into a club, confiscating everyone's cigarettes, claiming they are bad, while running a tobacco shop in the corner.

It makes very little sense to you maybe, but it makes perfect sense to me. I'm fine with you directing your focus on other game issues, please do so. If I'm in support of it, I'll join you. As for stopping playing, that's one of the points I've raised. This change will induce that for some players.

It was bad for the game and like rep boosters in skirm camps should never have been a thing. It allowed players to pre-grind something and removed engagement for content because players hoarded so much stuff that they never felt the need to worry about it. Btw, people still have too much ancient script even before this change and that literally will not change with this update. People are still going to overcap on script cause of all the questing so why even bother with the MC for a problem that never existed?

In all my examples, you did not earn any of that. You paid for it. My point was that we are being super selective of what pay to win constitutes and then go out of our to justify it with some modifier as though it proves the points. You mentioned earning it as being a factor, you don’t even earn any of those and yet they get a pass. Paying to skip grind/convenience has you get stronger from it and is the consequence of skipping pay to grind. That is what you paid for.

VIP = increase leveling faster, makes killing mobs at lvls lower than you easier. In fact, people do this alot.
VIP = also gives boosts you can use that increase dps, that +5% can used for raids at t3+ to breach cap.
Valars = 100% pay to win. Those gear are better than most basic gear pre-delving gear.
Boosters = has to be, you’re paying to speed up content so you don’t grind out like everyone else. Which for KOH gives those jewellry pieces at kindred. For the other factions, why you’re getting LP from them at a faster rate than others now.
Coffers = how a gear look is a progression. you know if a char is a new character/at this lvl or not based on how they look because that it part of item progression. Cosmetic coffers skip that completely and is what people considered P2W when they first became a thing.

“but I never pay for character power/progression. That sort of progression should be earned IMO, and nothing should be instantly available, at a price.”

If anything the forum can be a double standard and selection bias when it comes to what we consider at issue or not. Not fighting or anything, but we really do have to accept we have a load of biases we constantly apply, and sometimes even some bit of cognitive dissonance.

 

[Arnenna]

It was bad for the game and like rep boosters in skirm camps should never have been a thing. It allowed players to pre-grind something and removed engagement for content because players hoarded so much stuff that they never felt the need to worry about it. Btw, people still have too much ancient script even before this change and that literally will not change with this update. People are still going to overcap on script cause of all the questing so why even bother with the MC for a problem that never existed?

Ancient script is worthless alone. It buys meagre traceries and the simplest runes.

In all my examples, you did not earn any of that. You paid for it. My point was that we are being super selective of what pay to win constitutes and then go out of our to justify it with some modifier as though it proves the points. You mentioned earning it as being a factor, you don’t even earn any of those and yet they get a pass. Paying to skip grind/convenience has you get stronger from it and is the consequence of skipping pay to grind. That is what you paid for.

VIP = increase leveling faster, makes killing mobs at lvls lower than you easier. In fact, people do this alot.

Still a choice. Not even relevant. We can use missions to out-level landscape content and run back for easy pickings, at any time. Though landscape is easy pickings on level or even under levelled. Levels are not power. There are still in game alternatives.

VIP = also gives boosts you can use that increase dps, that +5% can used for raids at t3+ to breach cap.
Valars = 100% pay to win. Those gear are better than most basic gear pre-delving gear.

Valars are good for levels (which don't provide power). The gear is on par with what a player would have if they levelled to that level. The virtue packs, are very much pay to win because we can pass them to other characters. That should be removed. Just because they exist, doesn't mean I agree with them, and that is the mistake you are making - you are assuming a lot. Regardless of any of that, there are still in game alternatives.

Boosters = has to be, you’re paying to speed up content so you don’t grind out like everyone else. Which for KOH gives those jewellry pieces at kindred. For the other factions, why you’re getting LP from them at a faster rate than others now.

I don't buy boosters. Again, you're assuming a lot, and there are in game alternatives.

Coffers = how a gear look is a progression. you know if a char is a new character/at this lvl or not based on how they look because that it part of item progression. Cosmetic coffers skip that completely and is what people considered P2W when they first became a thing.

Cosmetic appearance is not player power. It will not help you in any instance or raid.

“but I never pay for character power/progression. That sort of progression should be earned IMO, and nothing should be instantly available, at a price.”

If anything the forum can be a double standard and selection bias when it comes to what we consider at issue or not. Not fighting or anything, but we really do have to accept we have a load of biases we constantly apply, and sometimes even some bit of cognitive dissonance.

No selection bias going on here other than what you are assuming.

 

[Gildoriel]

Btw, people still have too much ancient script even before this change and that literally will not change with this update. People are still going to overcap on script cause of all the questing so why even bother with the MC for a problem that never existed?

I don't have too much ancient script. I didn't prehoard old LIs back then and have to earn everything anew each level cap. So please stop claiming things about other people. You can speak for yourself and your kin/friends in-game, but other players might be in totally different situations.

 

[Bone]

I don't have too much ancient script. I didn't prehoard old LIs back then and have to earn everything anew each level cap. So please stop claiming things about other people. You can speak for yourself and your kin/friends in-game, but other players might be in totally different situations.

That's like me. I have an alt going into Harad with 700 ancient script in the bank, and I haven't even gotten one level 170 tracery yet.

 

[Arnenna]

I don't have too much ancient script. I didn't prehoard old LIs back then and have to earn everything anew each level cap. So please stop claiming things about other people. You can speak for yourself and your kin/friends in-game, but other players might be in totally different situations.

That's the problem, not everyone is in the same boat, or plays the same way. I'm a hoarder, in RL to an extent (always saving for a rainy day) but to extremes in game. I'm open about it, and share the hoards with others. It makes me happy when I can do that. I play fast and furiously (as you have just discovered), and I grind that wheel like there is no tomorrow. I'm not afraid of grind, never have been, but I never buy my away around it when it comes to gearing or progressing my characters power.

That's an assumption from people that do it, that everyone does it. They don't!

I've bought a few valars over the years when they are in a deep sale (years ago when they were 75% off I bought three, just to use up some points, and I still have one of them left), and of course, there are the ones that come with expac purchases, but the virtue packs that came with them, are still on the characters I levelled up for when I am ready to actually play them seriously. I will not pass them to my main characters to give them an un-earned leg up. Absolutely not. I disagree with that function and think it should be removed from the game. The virtue packs should bind to the character. I'm proud of my main characters achievements, and I refuse to undo that with a paid bypass.

There are a lot of other things I consider pay to win, but I'm not going to bring them into this thread and derail it. Just because I haven't brought them up or come in here with a hefty list, doesn't mean I'm ok with them.

 

[Arnenna]

That's like me. I have an alt going into Harad with 700 ancient script in the bank, and I haven't even gotten one level 170 tracery yet.

You will earn some script boxes in the new content, and some yellow and purple traceries. Though I can't give you the full numbers yet.

General XP - there is ample of this. My main is not two thirds through the content yet (because I'm really struggling to get into the stories and the back and forthing involved in this expac) and hit 160 already. I have not upgraded any of my gear, or upgraded my LI other than a reforge. Makes it more interesting
Runes - so far there isn't enough of these. There is never enough though, so I'm not expecting to get to the end of the content and finding that there is.
Traceries, Iirc my main has 6 purple 151 traceries so far.
Rep, the rep grinds (4 factions) are immense, like huge. If you're not afraid of grind though, they are fine. We do have a lot of time to get them done.

 

[Fadil]

That's like me. I have an alt going into Harad with 700 ancient script in the bank, and I haven't even gotten one level 170 tracery yet.

Fyi you get traceries for the weekly (purple for the first, teals for the second).
You get runes and traceries from the hunter's guild.
And the fearured instances and instances in general give runes/ traceries.
I struggled a bit with runes at the start but I have hundreds of them now, I think from the hunters quests, but I'll check that tomorrow.

 

[Karac Avalron]

I didn't miss that out

My previous comment stipulated quite clearly, Saddest part is, some people will comply. And that's the long and short of it. Supply and demand. I'll never comply, they get enough dough out of me already. I'll leave before I pay for character power that should be earned. Though it seems some are fine with that concept. Hell, may as well sell raid gear in the store at this point. If it's ok to sell player power in the store because it will bring in revenue, there's their avenue to make a ton of it because players will lap it up (though not a penny of it will come from me).

SSG create the demand (which they have done with this change). Now they've monopolised the supply.

I bolded the relevant parts. We have interacted before Arnenna, I genuinely like you and most of the people I interact with in LOTRO I don't. Something about brits, probably because I spent so much time there.

The bolded parts? So your compliance is conditional, if the criteria is monetary which you've referenced a lot in your narratives in this thread. I am going to deduce that you understand the inherent contradictions but I understand you will likely not admit to it. This thread has put forth the "issue" as some evolved nuanced mental exercise for a lot of posters here. It really isn't, its actually very straight forward.

Again, we come back to the sunken cost fallacy and believe me it took me years to get over that for LOTRO. However, you are entitled to create any rational you like to continue on, even when your posts seem to suggest a level of disgust with the current state. Not much else to say although I will read your reply if you chose to give one.

Happy new year to you and yours Arnenna, cheers.

 

[Bone]

Fyi you get traceries for the weekly (purple for the first, teals for the second).
You get runes and traceries from the hunter's guild.
And the fearured instances and instances in general give runes/ traceries.
I struggled a bit with runes at the start but I have hundreds of them now, I think from the hunters quests, but I'll check that tomorrow.

I did not know that. I total missed that on my main that went through.