Read more about the rest of the year and beyond in The Lord of the Rings Online!

[Fadil]

And I would take what you do and expand it. We have the FI system. Why not expand that system and do events on a regular schedule that has rotating rewards? Could be quarterly or whatever. Create some type of deed/achievement that has to be met by running things over time. Make it possible to complete but challenging. Make the rewards something that people can show off and there will always be a reason to log on and play at the level one prefers.

Oh I fully agree, they could add more interesting things and make old content even better to run.
Atm for example the armour from the FIs is very, very nice compared to crafted and some even compared to ember gear.
They could update that at times too.

 

[Lorianna]

I think the whole problem here is the concept of considering the LI system as the main reason to login. Current acquisition or hoarding for the next level cap shouldn't make a big difference. Maybe, they need to rethink the strategy a bit? Maybe, the LI system itself is a problem? Maybe there needs to be other carrots in the content to encourage participation and logging on? Why do the only rewards have to be a piece of gear or item that is only slightly better? Why can there not be special drops that last beyond the level cap like mounts, housing items, cosmetics, etc.? There are so many possibilities that could be implemented. They have been suggested in many forums.

I don't run instances and these RNG drops are really aggravating to me, especially if it is many and there are no alternatives outside (not the same but similar items).

I really would like to see more of these as quest rewards.

 

[Kipp]

I see things a little bit differently.

Yes, players hoard. They always have, and always will, if there is a chance to do so.

So, some players, who hoard, are able to fill their LI in the first week, but they didn't stop playing after that. Quite the opposite actually - they keep playing, because they are hoarding. How else do they build up their hoard, if they stop playing? The whole concept involved behind the hoarding mechanism is to play for what one doesn't need now, so they can use it later. they use their newly equipped L to run and beat content, but besides that, they still have that reason to grind items - they are hoarders, so they keep grinding to build up reserves. They do not stop playing once their LIs are done. If they did, they wouldn't be hoarding and would have no reserves and this issue would never have existed. It only exists because they keep on playing, and hoarding.

The only difference now, to what it was a month ago, is "when" they grind. I'm a hoarder, and I'm quite open about it. I'm an insomniac and often find myself in game when most of the server has gone to sleep. That's when I earn and store. So, we just hit level 160, and I have more than enough to fill what I need . . . so what happens now? I'm not going to grind the midnight oil for rewards that are of no use to me now, but I can't save them for later either. I'm just not going to log in. I will find something else to do, to pass the sleepless hours instead. SSG, if they have the capability to look at player activity will see I'm at half ballast already, and the expac is still brand new.

So, what's the net outcome? With all players in the same boat, everyone will, as you say, grind what they need, and that will be it - no need to log in any further or run those instances for LI items. Job done. That may take some players 6 months, or 2 years, depending on their speed of play. Hoarders won't bother once they're done either, no point because they can't save anything for future use. From my perspective, this isn't going to hit me much until level cap 170, maybe even 180, and as there is zero point in earning stuff we cannot use, or keep for later, my playtime is going to take a dive.

I hold the same opinion of this as I do for all forms of restricted play. Currency caps, instance/raid locks, all of it. They all, at some point, whether that's early in a content cycle, or later, stop players playing. The only difference now, is "when" they stop.

But they'd be doing the same thing if they couldn't hoard: Either farm for stuff to use now, or farm for stuff to use next expansion, ultimately you're farming for the same stuff regardless, its just whether you use it immediately or in the future. But, the main issue in my mind is that people aren't really hoarding stuff they actively farmed, they are hoarding stuff they passively farmed with the LI track over the course of a year or two. So this expansion, sure, people will not play once they've maxed their legendaries but the devs are thinking more long term, and if they allow people to keep storing endless passively farmed stuff, they may as well just make legendaries auto-level, because everyone will start doing it. It genuinely surprises me this was ever allowed to begin with, there aren't many games that let you pre-farm stuff before an expansion comes out.

 

[TristianX]

But they'd be doing the same thing if they couldn't hoard: Either farm for stuff to use now, or farm for stuff to use next expansion, ultimately you're farming for the same stuff regardless, its just whether you use it immediately or in the future. But, the main issue in my mind is that people aren't really hoarding stuff they actively farmed, they are hoarding stuff they passively farmed with the LI track over the course of a year or two. So this expansion, sure, people will not play once they've maxed their legendaries but the devs are thinking more long term, and if they allow people to keep storing endless passively farmed stuff, they may as well just make legendaries auto-level, because everyone will start doing it. It genuinely surprises me this was ever allowed to begin with, there aren't many games that let you pre-farm stuff before an expansion comes out.

I think what is most interesting actually, is that people have learned to accept that SSG are incapable of providing players with year-round content and reasons to login and play the game, personally, I can never play the same game for longer than 6 months at a time, whether there is new content or not, I just eventually get bored and switch to something else for a few months and I have done that for my entire gaming life, even where lotro is concerned, I'll play for 6 months and then disappear for 3 months.

But, what seems to be the main problem is that people seem to be saying, "Well if I can't hoard stuff why do I need to login?", and well.. Isn't that quite sad? That the game itself isn't actually keeping you playing, it's the hamster wheel and the carrot chunks. In content draughts I've always found reasons to play, even before hoarding was a thing, I'd make new characters, gear alts, farm deeds or virtues, play casually, do pvmp, just whatever, without feeling like I have to specifically do X because I need to hoard for the next update in 2 years.

But if people are saying they'd rather not login.. Well, that just shows how desperate lotro has become and maybe it's a wake up call SSG need to actually start giving us more, or better staggering of content through expansion cycles.

 

[Erionor]

It’s the time everyone is meant to be playing the actual expansion, seeing the world, doing the quests and the story.

This is actually great and it’s good fun, but the issue is that right now those who mainly come here to run lots of group content don’t have anything to do, as the game is heavily encouraging solo play at the moment. Also, the gear meta right now is crafted and quest gear, both of which are mostly solo activities, further compounding the issue.

On the other hand, it’s Christmas so we can go actually be sociable in real life

 

[Arnenna]

But, what seems to be the main problem is that people seem to be saying, "Well if I can't hoard stuff why do I need to login?",

That's not what I'm saying. Not even close. What I'm saying is, I'm not interested in logging in when the game is just going to chew up my rewards and make them fit for nothing.

Think of it like this. They push out the raid, but for the first 6 months, it will only drop leg pieces. Once you've got all leg pieces you need, you're not going to waste any more time in the raid until they put different armour in there.

and well.. Isn't that quite sad?

It's not sad, its just infuriating.

That the game itself isn't actually keeping you playing, it's the hamster wheel and the carrot chunks.

I don't play for carrot chunks. Dragon has been around a long time, and is old, but we ran it right up to the day before the new xpac - because we're helping kinnies gear. We earn as we do those runs. Sometimes it's gear, which we pass on to friends that need it. Sometimes its rare items, needed to craft top items - we pass those onto friends too. The only thing we get out of it is occasional runes and traceries from RT end boxes, that we don't actually need . . . but can use later. It's a relatively small reward for continuing to play their content. Just a token.

In content draughts I've always found reasons to play, even before hoarding was a thing, I'd make new characters, gear alts, farm deeds or virtues, play casually, do pvmp, just whatever, without feeling like I have to specifically do X because I need to hoard for the next update in 2 years.

I can't make any more characters even if I want to. I'm full, in fact, so full the last expac didn't award me my character slot (which reminds me, I must raise a ticket). Deeds and virtues, all up to date on the characters that need them. Alts that don't run higher end content don't need them.

But if people are saying they'd rather not login.. Well, that just shows how desperate lotro has become and maybe it's a wake up call SSG need to actually start giving us more, or better staggering of content through expansion cycles.

They best do something, because for the first time in almost 14 years of playing, I know I'm not going to last the distance on this level cap cycle.

I don't get bored and leave the game. I stay, all the way through, paying, and playing. I'm a very fast player too. I chew content very, very quickly. I don't need content to be more staggered, in fact, I'd welcome more of it. But in any event, I don't like being bottlenecked or bogged down with artificial and deliberate constraints. Never had to deal with them in 14 years of playing, and not about to start now. And for the love of the valar they need to stop with the cherry picking. If getting ahead a little is a bad thing, apply it across the board, not just to some things. If they want a list of shortcuts, I can give it to them, because I partake in most, if not all of them. It's how I roll. I'm a bit of an old lady nowadays, and the time may arrive where I may need to take a game break out of necessity. It would be nice to know that when I come back I can pick up where I left off and run content pretty quickly with my kin mates. It's not as if any returning player isn't going to be behind everyone else when they return now, because they absolutely will be - unless they time their return with the arrival of a new level cap.

 

[TristianX]

What I'm saying is, I'm not interested in logging in when the game is just going to chew up my rewards and make them fit for nothing.

So... Every level cap increase in the history of the game... Of every MMO game... Ever?

Think of it like this. They push out the raid, but for the first 6 months, it will only drop leg pieces. Once you've got all leg pieces you need, you're not going to waste any more time in the raid until they put different armour in there.

Doesn't mean I'm not going to play the game though, does it? Just means I'll either find something else to do in the game, or I'll play something else (which, is not a big deal).

I don't get bored and leave the game. I stay, all the way through, paying, and playing. I'm a very fast player too. I chew content very, very quickly. I don't need content to be more staggered, in fact, I'd welcome more of it. But in any event, I don't like being bottlenecked or bogged down with artificial and deliberate constraints. Never had to deal with them in 14 years of playing, and not about to start now. And for the love of the valar they need to stop with the cherry picking. If getting ahead a little is a bad thing, apply it across the board, not just to some things. If they want a list of shortcuts, I can give it to them, because I partake in most, if not all of them. It's how I roll. I'm a bit of an old lady nowadays, and the time may arrive where I may need to take a game break out of necessity. It would be nice to know that when I come back I can pick up where I left off and run content pretty quickly with my kin mates. It's not as if any returning player isn't going to be behind everyone else when they return now, because they absolutely will be - unless they time their return with the arrival of a new level cap.

SSG cannot and have not been able to sustain active player involvement year round for a long time- what they had done is force engagement through hoarding.

I also chew through content exceedingly quickly, both landscape, doesn't take me more than a few days per character, and group content, yet I can keep myself amused with old content OR by simply playing an alternative game, or simply just doing something else with my free time. If you cannot play Lotro year round without hoarding, then, maybe you need to find something else to do, I’m sorry if that sounds harsh, but I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect a singular focus to hold your attention all year round, every year, without somewhat getting bored - it might be that you’re ignoring it (the boredom) and powering through because you’re hoarding, but, what’s the big deal if it does mean that you begin to take breaks? Or that you turn away for Lotro for a few months when you’ve nothing left to do? If you genuinely wanted to play the game, you would find a reason to do so, you'd find a reason to login and play.

Hoarding negatively impacts other areas of the game, whether people in this forum thread choose to acknowledge this or not, it wasn’t just removed for the heck of it.

 

[Arnenna]

So... Every level cap increase in the history of the game... Of every MMO game... Ever?

Well, I don't play anything else, so that isn't relevant in my case. And not every level cap in this game. 1-95, yes. Back when the LI grind started fresh every level cap and it was so bad, the devs "changed" it, to what we've had ever since for the sake of player retention.

Doesn't mean I'm not going to play the game though, does it? Just means I'll either find something else to do in the game, or I'll play something else (which, is not a big deal).

But it does mean you will abandon the raid until you can earn something from it. It's great that we can find something else to do in game, but when you've done it tens of times, doing it again (for no reason) is kinda counter productive. Going off to play something else, isn't what I call being engaged. I'm pretty sure if I owned the game, I'd see that as a negative.

SSG cannot and have not been able to sustain active player involvement year round for a long time- what they had done is force engagement through hoarding.

They've managed to keep me actively involved, and not through hoarding. The hoarding is mainly passive to other things we do or reasons we play. But those token gesture rewards do help to keep us stepping into content that we absolutely won't bother with (because we're bored of it, or need nothing from it).

I also chew through content exceedingly quickly, both landscape, doesn't take me more than a few days per character, and group content, yet I can keep myself amused with old content OR by simply playing an alternative game,

There it is again "play something else." There will always be players that take long breaks. You've already stated you go off after around 6 months into a content cycle, so that's no secret. But there a lot of players that don't, and they stick around. I really don't think it's good marketing strategy when the only options that result from a change (a change that makes a much needed previous change, revert), stick around and play for no reward, or take your support elsewhere.

or simply just doing something else with my free time. If you cannot play Lotro year round without hoarding, then, maybe you need to find something else to do,

I have plenty to do and I'll be doing much more of that now. There's that net outcome I talked about earlier.

I’m sorry if that sounds harsh,

It's not harsh, and no need to apologise. It's perfectly fine to disagree. World would be boring otherwise.

but I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect a singular focus to hold your attention all year round, every year, without somewhat getting bored - it might be that you’re ignoring it (the boredom) and powering through because you’re hoarding, but, what’s the big deal if it does mean that you begin to take breaks? Or that you turn away for Lotro for a few months when you’ve nothing left to do? If you genuinely wanted to play the game, you would find a reason to do so, you'd find a reason to login and play.

Again, its not a singular focus. Its something that happens passively while playing around in content that would, otherwise, not be worth participating in. I don't ignore the boredom, I'm perfectly aware of when I'm finding something boring or not, but I'm usually quite fine with overlooking it, as long as I am getting something out of it.

Hoarding negatively impacts other areas of the game, whether people in this forum thread choose to acknowledge this or not, it wasn’t just removed for the heck of it.

Now it's my turn to be harsh. It only affected people who went off to take long breaks. They disappear and then when they come back, they dislike that people that didn't are in a more ready game state. That's the bottom line. Forget game economy, that's a non argument. Gold means absolutely nothing in game nowadays (unless one is a gold seller). Currency caps take care of everything else, as do locks. Passive LI rewards don't even make a dent.

It wasn't just removed for the sake of it no, it was removed due to player pressure. Exactly the same way it was introduced ten years ago. This is just an undo button for something they brought in a long time ago, again, because of player pressure that legendary weapons where supposed to be . . . you know . . . legendary. AKA, they grow with you, not need to be started fresh all the time.

Again, I'm not saying the change is good or bad, because there are many players in this game, and opinions, and outcomes are still yet to be determined. It will lessen my play time, no doubt about it - because I'm not one to waste my energy doing stuff that isn't rewarding, when I have other things I can be doing (and I'm fine with that. I just hope SSG is aware of that outcome, and how many players potentially end up the same). What's wrong with taking extended breaks you asked? Absolutely nothing, until the majority of the player base is doing it, 6 months into a content cycle. As far as I'm aware, nobody pays for a game they are not playing. I certainly won't be. I'm not a lifer. If I go off for 6 months, my money goes with me. The question then is, how many others are in the same boat.

 

[twittfounder]

STOP. Please just stop. This is the very beginning of a new level cap (perhaps, not necessary) and the entire "grind" that comes along with it. There is no "end game" at the moment. There is no sufficient incremental advantage. The system isn't broken. It's just preparing the new upgrades and new grind.

The biggest "problem" (IMHO) is that the scalable content doesn't appropriately scale rewards. This game has a TON of amazing content, that I think I would enjoy playing again. However, there isn't any real incentive to run that content. I'd really love to see the scalable instances and content scale with the content and the game. Quite a few of the more recent instances got overshadowed by poor progression and difficulty. But provide scalable rewards appropriate to level cap content?! Please extend the life out of existing content by letting it appropriately scale rewards!

 

[TristianX]

Well, I don't play anything else, so that isn't relevant in my case. And not every level cap in this game. 1-95, yes. Back when the LI grind started fresh every level cap and it was so bad, the devs "changed" it, to what we've had ever since for the sake of player retention.

LI grind had nothing to do with player retention, and you were perfectly capable of hoarding back then just as you are now, LI XP and Relics being two of the main grievances players had, were perfectly able to be carried forward - regetting your desired legacies took no time at all, Delving and Empowerment scrolls were also very easy to come by if you simply did any content at all. It was mostly the fact that players disliked rebuilding a *new* Legendary Weapon, rather than keep their current one, which is what led to the Imbued LI system, and, all that was added was that we were now simply also able to hoard Star-Lits and Empowerments, but hoarding has been a part of the LI system from the start, doesn't mean it was right, or good, just means it was so terribly designed that it was almost a necessity.

Still doesn't escape the fact that this type of *carrying forward* previous gains is an almost complete anomaly within this genre of MMO.

But it does mean you will abandon the raid until you can earn something from it.

Doesn't mean I'm abandoning the game though does it, so I don't really get the argument.

But when you've done it tens of times, doing it again (for no reason) is kinda counter productive.

Unless you are a bit masochistic or unable to kick an addiction, do you really do stuff for no reason anyway? If I didn't happen to be personally getting anything from said raid, there's still the fact that it would drop Embers (from said leg pieces) and the fact that I'd be helping friends & others get gear, whether or not I'm specifically getting LI materials to hoard for the next two years isn't relevant, it was nice, but it's not the only reason that you're doing it. I didn't stay doing Temple & MK until the end of the level cap *just* because they dropped LI materials, I got bored and found something else to do in the game (and also played other games).

Going off to play something else, isn't what I call being engaged. I'm pretty sure if I owned the game, I'd see that as a negative.

Just because you own something and you suddenly decide you're bored of it, doesn't mean it's a negative... You had enjoyment out of it for X hours before you got bored of it. If I've played a single-player story game and finished it, and then suddenly decide I'm bored of it after that, doesn't equate to being a negative... I enjoyed it whilst I was playing it, finished it, got bored of it, moved on.
Nothing negative or wrong with that.

I really don't think it's good marketing strategy when the only options that result from a change (a change that makes a much needed previous change, revert), stick around and play for no reward, or take your support elsewhere.

But you're not sticking around and playing for no reward - your direct loot gains within the game, is not (or at least I hope not) the only reason you're playing the game, is it? Friends? Story? Alts? PvMP? Festivals? RP? Lore? Music? Housing? General enjoyment of the game itself? Cosmetics? Collecting Pets/Mounts? Or is it all just... Loot goblin mode?

I don't ignore the boredom, I'm perfectly aware of when I'm finding something boring or not, but I'm usually quite fine with overlooking it, as long as I am getting something out of it.

As I said; powering through the boredom chasing carrot chunks.

Now it's my turn to be harsh. It only affected people who went off to take long breaks. They disappear and then when they come back, they dislike that people that didn't are in a more ready game state. That's the bottom line.

It didn't only affect people who took long breaks and I've explained why further back in the thread.

But getting back to "people who take breaks", I find that the majority of those whom I play with, take breaks from Lotro (or whatever other game it is they're playing) after a certain period of time because they get bored, RL takes over, or just something else piques their interest more, I've only met a handful of players like yourself, who play Lotro almost day-in day-out, but I personally don't see that type of style of play as the *norm* if it were, you wouldn't see such huge spikes in activity when new content is released. Which then begs the question, how many players refuse to return to the game simply because they're too far behind, with LIs, or Virtues, or whatever it happens to be - I've had a number of friends over the year who've simply not come back to the game because they were too far behind.

It wasn't just removed for the sake of it no, it was removed due to player pressure. Exactly the same way it was introduced ten years ago. This is just an undo button for something they brought in a long time ago, again, because of player pressure that legendary weapons where supposed to be . . . you know . . . legendary. AKA, they grow with you, not need to be started fresh all the time.

The Legendary system hasn't been *Legendary* right from when it was introduced, and is quite probably the cause of multiple issues within the game itself - the ILI system was probably the only *grow with you* system we had, but even this new one doesn't fit that, even less so than before.

Also, aside from a forum thread two years ago just before CoU released, I don't actually recall seeing (at least on these forums), any other complaints from players about the fact that players were hoarding materials. If people had been complaining it wasn't loudly, and I rather think this decision has come directly from SSG as opposed to apparent "player pressure", because, as I've also said, hoarding impacts a number of areas of the game, and also frustrates developer capacity to restrict player power - we have different rarities of traceries for a reason, we're not meant to start with teal/gold.

Absolutely nothing, until the majority of the player base is doing it, 6 months into a content cycle. As far as I'm aware, nobody pays for a game they are not playing. I certainly won't be. I'm not a lifer. If I go off for 6 months, my money goes with me. The question then is, how many others are in the same boat.

I quite regularly forget to cancel my sub when I take breaks, and not everyone is going to take breaks at the same time, or for the same amount of time either, whether people do or don't, I'm pretty sure is already part of their marketing and game development strategy, because, yeah, genuinely, I think the vast majority of players generally do disappear for a little while and then return at a later stage (this is just to clarify again, a thought/opinion I have, not a fact). Almost my entire Kin of about 25 people already do this, there's maybe about 2 or 3 who continue to play religiously, whilst everyone else takes a break.

 

[Kipp]

Again, I'm not saying the change is good or bad, because there are many players in this game, and opinions, and outcomes are still yet to be determined. It will lessen my play time, no doubt about it - because I'm not one to waste my energy doing stuff that isn't rewarding, when I have other things I can be doing (and I'm fine with that. I just hope SSG is aware of that outcome, and how many players potentially end up the same). What's wrong with taking extended breaks you asked? Absolutely nothing, until the majority of the player base is doing it, 6 months into a content cycle. As far as I'm aware, nobody pays for a game they are not playing. I certainly won't be. I'm not a lifer. If I go off for 6 months, my money goes with me. The question then is, how many others are in the same boat.

Again you're thinking in too small terms of this expansion. It may lessen your playtime this level cap increase, but the next one you will have to actively farm if you want a maxed out legendary early, rather than just amassing thousands of boxes through passive play and doing it day 1. So this expansion, sure, but next expansion you'll be required to actually engage with the content more.

You say hoarders wont bother when they're done but that is generally true either way because most things you can actively farm are level capped anyway, so all you can really do is do stuff that levels up the LI track which is the same amount of work whether you do it now, or when the level cap next increases.
You brought up raids and I think that is an interesting point because it really works against what you are saying. Imagine if raids worked the same way, instead of dropping gear directly, it dropped a box that you opened for a piece of gear (randomly) and if you waited until the next expansion's raid release to open it, it would give a piece for that raid rather than the last one. Everyone would be saving up boxes and as soon as the next raid dropped, a big portion of the active raid community would be immediately BIS geared with no reason to really run pugs. Maybe once they were easier to hoard for the next year but the raiding scene would certainly die down, especially if you had something like UB which was pretty successful overall on tier 1 to pug, where you could save up boxes possible to skip through multiple new raids. That sounds insane, doesn't it? Because the problem is that its not just that you give incentives for people to run raids after they're done, it actively comes at the expense of the next raid and its the same here, or any other content that you apply this same logic to.
Edit: I guess what i'm saying is if you want to incentivize people to do stuff after they have gotten stuff from it, then you should do that directly, such as the tokens in UB that had plenty of uses even if you already had all the gear on one character. Compare that to MK, where the pieces actually dropped and a lot of people stopped running it after they get everything (unless a friend needed it or they ran it with their kin). I personally didn't run much in the way of MK after I got all of my stuff, except in those 2 instances and towards the end of Morgoth, it was pretty hard to find pugs. You can't use allowing people to hoard stuff for one thing as an excuse to sacrifice another, it just doesn't work.

 

[JohnMHammer]

The recent change to LI upgrade item boxes getting a stamp for the current level cap doesn't bother me. When it was introduced I objected only to the timing although I suppose if the decision had been mine I would not have made the change. But 2 weeks before the change was to be implemented after players had spent the last couple of months up to as much as 2 years engaging in behavior encouraged by the state of things before that change? That was outrageous and I'm glad SSG staff changed their minds about retroactively applying a 150 cap to all existing boxes as of the moment u46 was released.

However, for those folks arguing strenuously in favor of this change and others like it:
–Should all characters/accounts have their store of Embers of Enchantment reduced to 0 or converted to some other currency less useful for practical things at level cap at the moment a new expansion/a new level cap is introduced?
–Similarly, should all Ancient Script be reduced to 0 or converted to something else? Should all saved-up Ancient Script boxes be converted as well?
–Should all raid set and other set bonuses be disabled immediately instead of at Level 154 or whatever the arbitrary cutoff was this last time?
–Should all instance and raid gear get their stats reduced to the equivalent of basic quest or crafted gear as soon as the new content drops?

I could come up with other examples but I'll stop there for brevity. The point is that players can do all sorts of things in advance of a new level cap or content release, storing scaling and uncapped LI upgrade item boxes was just one of those things. If LOTRO were a competitive game – and yes, I know among a subset of the raiders it is a race – there might be a reason to do these things. And certainly new players shouldn't feel so disadvantaged vs long-time players that they don't even see the point of trying to catch up to join the end-game activities – although I would argue that the simple existence of 160 levels is seen as a pretty big barrier to many new folks who just want end-game rather than the full LOTRO experience.

Things are "fair" as long as the same rules apply to everyone. So if everyone knows well in advance that hoarding boxes is a reasonable approach to getting a leg up for the next expansion/level-cap, it's fine for that to be something a player can do. Or if everyone knows in advance that hoarding boxes is a waste of time and storage space; that, too, is OK.

Any rules change which might make moot the time and effort a player has already expended to leverage rules in place while that time and effort was expended needs to be very carefully considered as to timing and application. No one likes having their time and effort wasted, SSG needs to keep that in mind before any such future changes.

 

[TristianX]

However, for those folks arguing strenuously in favor of this change and others like it:
–Should all characters/accounts have their store of Embers of Enchantment reduced to 0 or converted to some other currency less useful for practical things at level cap at the moment a new expansion/a new level cap is introduced?
–Similarly, should all Ancient Script be reduced to 0 or converted to something else? Should all saved-up Ancient Script boxes be converted as well?
–Should all raid set and other set bonuses be disabled immediately instead of at Level 154 or whatever the arbitrary cutoff was this last time?
–Should all instance and raid gear get their stats reduced to the equivalent of basic quest or crafted gear as soon as the new content drops?

Yes to all of them except the last one, because that's just bordering on being silly for the sake of it, especially when quest landscape gear is sufficient enough / good enough to do the next area anyway, and that's also how it works in other games too, all currency is defunct or reset except for gold, and all set bonuses immediately disabled, this isn't wild or crazy, this is how it should be lol.

Walk into any other MMO of a similar genre and age, and that's how it is on a level cap increase, nothing carried over except the gear you're wearing.

 

[Gildoriel]

The recent change to LI upgrade item boxes getting a stamp for the current level cap doesn't bother me. When it was introduced I objected only to the timing although I suppose if the decision had been mine I would not have made the change. But 2 weeks before the change was to be implemented after players had spent the last couple of months up to as much as 2 years engaging in behavior encouraged by the state of things before that change? That was outrageous and I'm glad SSG staff changed their minds about retroactively applying a 150 cap to all existing boxes as of the moment u46 was released.

However, for those folks arguing strenuously in favor of this change and others like it:
–Should all characters/accounts have their store of Embers of Enchantment reduced to 0 or converted to some other currency less useful for practical things at level cap at the moment a new expansion/a new level cap is introduced?
–Similarly, should all Ancient Script be reduced to 0 or converted to something else? Should all saved-up Ancient Script boxes be converted as well?
–Should all raid set and other set bonuses be disabled immediately instead of at Level 154 or whatever the arbitrary cutoff was this last time?
–Should all instance and raid gear get their stats reduced to the equivalent of basic quest or crafted gear as soon as the new content drops?

I could come up with other examples but I'll stop there for brevity. The point is that players can do all sorts of things in advance of a new level cap or content release, storing scaling and uncapped LI upgrade item boxes was just one of those things. If LOTRO were a competitive game – and yes, I know among a subset of the raiders it is a race – there might be a reason to do these things. And certainly new players shouldn't feel so disadvantaged vs long-time players that they don't even see the point of trying to catch up to join the end-game activities – although I would argue that the simple existence of 160 levels is seen as a pretty big barrier to many new folks who just want end-game rather than the full LOTRO experience.

Things are "fair" as long as the same rules apply to everyone. So if everyone knows well in advance that hoarding boxes is a reasonable approach to getting a leg up for the next expansion/level-cap, it's fine for that to be something a player can do. Or if everyone knows in advance that hoarding boxes is a waste of time and storage space; that, too, is OK.

Any rules change which might make moot the time and effort a player has already expended to leverage rules in place while that time and effort was expended need to be very carefully considered as to timing and application. No one likes having their time and effort wasted, SSG needs to keep that in mind before any such future changes.

Not to speak of "pre-running" dozens of missions and delay turning them in until after the update to reach the next cap within an hour. It is something I thought about doing but then decided "nah, too monotous monotonous".

 

[TristianX]

Not to speak of "pre-running" dozens of missions and delay turning them in until after the update to reach the next cap within an hour. It is something I thought about doing but then decided "nah, too monotous".

Yep, also shouldn't be allowed either.
Though this does then raise the point that Lotro does need and should have alternative power-levelling methods, our last two were stopped, but, either way, this shouldn't be allowed either.

 

[Lorianna]

The recent change to LI upgrade item boxes getting a stamp for the current level cap doesn't bother me. When it was introduced I objected only to the timing although I suppose if the decision had been mine I would not have made the change. But 2 weeks before the change was to be implemented after players had spent the last couple of months up to as much as 2 years engaging in behavior encouraged by the state of things before that change? That was outrageous and I'm glad SSG staff changed their minds about retroactively applying a 150 cap to all existing boxes as of the moment u46 was released.

However, for those folks arguing strenuously in favor of this change and others like it:
–Should all characters/accounts have their store of Embers of Enchantment reduced to 0 or converted to some other currency less useful for practical things at level cap at the moment a new expansion/a new level cap is introduced?
–Similarly, should all Ancient Script be reduced to 0 or converted to something else? Should all saved-up Ancient Script boxes be converted as well?
–Should all raid set and other set bonuses be disabled immediately instead of at Level 154 or whatever the arbitrary cutoff was this last time?
–Should all instance and raid gear get their stats reduced to the equivalent of basic quest or crafted gear as soon as the new content drops?

I could come up with other examples but I'll stop there for brevity. The point is that players can do all sorts of things in advance of a new level cap or content release, storing scaling and uncapped LI upgrade item boxes was just one of those things. If LOTRO were a competitive game – and yes, I know among a subset of the raiders it is a race – there might be a reason to do these things. And certainly new players shouldn't feel so disadvantaged vs long-time players that they don't even see the point of trying to catch up to join the end-game activities – although I would argue that the simple existence of 160 levels is seen as a pretty big barrier to many new folks who just want end-game rather than the full LOTRO experience.

Things are "fair" as long as the same rules apply to everyone. So if everyone knows well in advance that hoarding boxes is a reasonable approach to getting a leg up for the next expansion/level-cap, it's fine for that to be something a player can do. Or if everyone knows in advance that hoarding boxes is a waste of time and storage space; that, too, is OK.

Any rules change which might make moot the time and effort a player has already expended to leverage rules in place while that time and effort was expended needs to be very carefully considered as to timing and application. No one likes having their time and effort wasted, SSG needs to keep that in mind before any such future changes.

Interesting questions.
Embers were supposed to convert to motes which would probably have resulted in over capping of those but having that cap is ridiculous anyways. It wouldn't impact me personally since I convert both currencies into figments anyways.
There is an AS cap. After getting the token traceries, really nothing to buy for it. With the changes to the token and enhancement boxes the cap could be removed.
I'm against disabling any gear, why shouldn't I be able to keep my 150 gear to 170+ if that is all what's needed. Disable bonuses was the way to go, not the expiration.
The last is kind of ridiculous. This is earned and should last forever with the same stats, not necessarily the bonus.

Keeping what I have earned on a level should always work and really no comparison to restricting boxes to the level cap they were earned in. I can go back and get lower gear all the time, I shouldn't be able to go forward already capping for the next level.

 

[Fadil]

Again you're thinking in too small terms of this expansion. It may lessen your playtime this level cap increase, but the next one you will have to actively farm if you want a maxed out legendary early, rather than just amassing thousands of boxes through passive play and doing it day 1. So this expansion, sure, but next expansion you'll be required to actually engage with the content more.

You say hoarders wont bother when they're done but that is generally true either way because most things you can actively farm are level capped anyway, so all you can really do is do stuff that levels up the LI track which is the same amount of work whether you do it now, or when the level cap next increases.
You brought up raids and I think that is an interesting point because it really works against what you are saying. Imagine if raids worked the same way, instead of dropping gear directly, it dropped a box that you opened for a piece of gear (randomly) and if you waited until the next expansion's raid release to open it, it would give a piece for that raid rather than the last one. Everyone would be saving up boxes and as soon as the next raid dropped, a big portion of the active raid community would be immediately BIS geared with no reason to really run pugs. Maybe once they were easier to hoard for the next year but the raiding scene would certainly die down, especially if you had something like UB which was pretty successful overall on tier 1 to pug, where you could save up boxes possible to skip through multiple new raids. That sounds insane, doesn't it? Because the problem is that its not just that you give incentives for people to run raids after they're done, it actively comes at the expense of the next raid and its the same here, or any other content that you apply this same logic to.
Edit: I guess what i'm saying is if you want to incentivize people to do stuff after they have gotten stuff from it, then you should do that directly, such as the tokens in UB that had plenty of uses even if you already had all the gear on one character. Compare that to MK, where the pieces actually dropped and a lot of people stopped running it after they get everything (unless a friend needed it or they ran it with their kin). I personally didn't run much in the way of MK after I got all of my stuff, except in those 2 instances and towards the end of Morgoth, it was pretty hard to find pugs. You can't use allowing people to hoard stuff for one thing as an excuse to sacrifice another, it just doesn't work.

Whatever way you present it, the only people supporting this change are those raiders, who lose interest in the game after a few months, and leave for most of the year.
In other words: none paying customers for most of the year.

They come back and lo and behold, all those filthy casuals, who shouldn't have good stuff anyway (this elitist drivel was actually posted in another thread) have played all the content, done the festivals, pvp'd, done the instance wrappers and they have gold tokens.

They also continued to play, pay, buy ultimate expansion, support coffers and so on.

But yes by all means, lets screw over loyal, long time PAYING customers to satisfy the tiny porrion of none paying, absentees.

 

[Hartten Thornbush]

I am curious, are those that oppose the hoarding of LI loot boxes against any and all forms of hoarding in game? If yes, does that mean you do not hoard Essences Reclamation Scrolls, Tracery Reclamation Scrolls, Universal Solvents, Universal Optional Crafting Ingredients, Crafting Shards, Black Steel Keys, Tomes of Extraordinary Experience, Small Reputation Acceleration Tomes, Tomes of Defense, Embers, Figments, Motes and countless more items?

 

[Ena]

For years now, we’ve been deliberately constrained in almost every direction. Things have been altered, removed, or tightened over time, and the overall experience has steadily become more grind‑heavy.

Once new expansion comes, any gear you ash turns into motes, which means the only embers we actually have access to are the ones already sitting in our wallets (not counting key purchases). With the ember cap in place, that amount doesn’t go very far anyway. Across 15 max‑level alts, I ended up with exactly one off‑hand weapon, purchased with embers. We also know that better stats, and more embers, will come later, including from ember boxes, so I’m keeping what I have safely below the cap.

Ancient scripts are in the same situation. With the current cap, you can’t even fully upgrade two weapons, and most of us have more than two per alt. Without tracery tokens, I honestly don’t see the point in spending them at all.

Typically, gear in a new region is always slightly better than what came before, even raid gear, especially once old bonuses are disabled.

None of this feels game‑changing to me, and I wouldn’t mind if everything above is removed entirely, since a new expansion is supposed to act as a reset and put everyone on equal footing. I also wouldn’t mind if they reverted the changes, because I genuinely see arguments on both sides and understand the concerns. I want everyone to enjoy the game.

But personally, it’s frustrating to see people come to the forums, two days after an expansion launches, to announce that their LIs are maxed, their quests are done, and they’re already bored. It’s usually the same people who argue the loudest in favor of grind, because they hoard resources, and they don’t feel that grind nearly as sharply as players who don’t or can’t hoard. Just to be clear, Arnena and John have never been among those people. I respect both of you a great deal, and I take your concerns seriously.

 

[Louvine]

I am curious, are those that oppose the hoarding of LI loot boxes against any and all forms of hoarding in game? If yes, does that mean you do not hoard Essences Reclamation Scrolls, Tracery Reclamation Scrolls, Universal Solvents, Universal Optional Crafting Ingredients, Crafting Shards, Black Steel Keys, Tomes of Extraordinary Experience, Small Reputation Acceleration Tomes, Tomes of Defense, Embers, Figments, Motes and countless more items?

You mean.. all the MTX related in game items that exist solely as a means to market their terribly designed systems - yeah, get rid of those too thanks. Delete and/or revamp said systems in the process too thanks