Guardian Refresh - The Defender of the Free

[Cap]

Litany is fine, I've used it to save many a Sag pug this season. The risk/reward factor is correctly balanced imo, use it in the right scenario and you don't need to pair cds, though yes I'm sure healers like to know when it's active.

Shield-spikes as a passive would definitely be less clumsy than the swappy iteration, but I'm not necessarily going to advocate for a change that uses up trait points I'd rather have elsewhere. If you don't want to lose the more potent version when you die.... then use the trait in your main tree. Or don't die. ez.

Nitpicking the consumable aspect is kind of a joke. The game has consumables and they aren't going away.

 

[Orion]

Litany of Defiance

Currently, it's a very high risk button to press. Under specific scenarios, it's good. However, that's very rare unless combined with Warriors Heart/other class CDs.
However, it's biggest issue is that during the 15s duration, you cannot regain Fortification stacks, which is fine cause otherwise Guardian gets 90%+ mitigations. But this means that after its over, you're kinda at the mercy of RNG to rebuild Fortifications as soon as possible.
Changing this to have you be able to gain Fortification stacks, but draw no benefit from them during the "Cannot be Fortified" effect.

Shield-spikes

Nobody, in their right mind, would trait this on an active trait line. It seems to solely exist for trait swapping purposes, which is horrible to play with, primarily from the view of:

Guardian swaps to the "Charge/Spikes/WH line".
Guardian uses Shield-spikes.
Guardian is now waiting for 30 seconds to swap back.
Guardian uses Charge/WH just before a fight.
Guardian swaps back.
Guardian gets Shield-spikes, things are good.
Guardian dies due to X from Y.
Guardian gets a rez.
Guardian now doesn't have Spikes/WH Fortitude, feeling ashamed and probably wants to sulk in a corner for the rest of the attempt.

This is just excluding the fact that you also need to get the spikes yourself, hogging an inventory slot.
Do we not have enough consumables in the game already? Hell, even a majority of which are utterly useless.
Remove the consumable, turn the trait into a proper passive that gives Shield-skills a passive % critical chance, you'll please everyone.

On Litany, it sounds like this is a point where the fellowship/raid has to be working together to cover for the invoked deficiency that the Guardian likely spent as an "I need to take the hits for a minute because my squishes are getting wrecked." Then, the fellow needs to bail out the Guard while they build back up. It is interplay and interaction - not likely to change right now.

On Shield-spikes, this sounds like real "Timmy the power-gamer behavior." I understand the argument that this change would be a big QoL upgrade but it also seems like a self-imposed QoL imposition.

 

[Theozor]

As someone whose most played character is a blue guardian, I'm fine with these changes. I don't see anything here that will significantly change my play style.

 

[Tiaasnin]

i think we need a longer range forced taunt AOE (maybe 20m radius like war chant), will challenge fully upgraded have the same range as the champion's challenge? i can see it have 30m range, 20m radius and 10 targets (fully upgraded that is, with traits and traceries)

 

[Zipfile]

Then, the fellow needs to bail out the Guard while they build back up. It is interplay and interaction - not likely to change right now.

So Guardian needs a bail during the cooldown.
Then he needs another bail after it expires if he still has aggro.

Seems well thought out.

Edit: Point wasn't during the CD. It was afterwards. Litany requiring a bail is perfectly fine, like In Harms Way of Sacrifice, but afterwards at least Captain has Battle-hardened again whereas Guardian has nothing.

On Shield-spikes, this sounds like real "Timmy the power-gamer behavior." I understand the argument that this change would be a big QoL upgrade but it also seems like a self-imposed QoL imposition.

...we have a bit of a disconnect between experience and designer input.

 

[Cap]

Okay upon further reflection here are some other thoughts.

Turn the Tables
Tiny quality of life thing, could the range be extended a little to say 8m? Stun break having a target requirement is inconvenient enough and then you have the short melee range. Very frustrating with trolls and the like.

New Protection
30m sounds like quite a big range for an always-on aura that affects the raid, maybe reduce it down to 20m and the tracery can change to extend it by 8/9/10/11m for those who have trouble reining in the hunters on both sides of the spec.

Adaptability
I actually think the existing implementation is fine as a passive way to proc responses, particularly since Keen Blade will have the corresponding mechanic for crit chance (which if I'm being honest should probably be DPS spec-only). Anyways, the flat bonus is not very interesting as the 2nd spec bonus since the 1st spec bonus is also flat. And it leaves an orphan tracery in its wake.

Parry response damage
Wrong thread but since I'm on the subject, here's another orphan tracery that needs a good home.

 

[Mojito]

So Guardian needs a bail during the cooldown.
Then he needs another bail after it expires if he still has aggro.

Seems well thought out.

...we have a bit of a disconnect between experience and designer input.

Once again we are at a perfect crossroads to change all that and help make the guardian a better well rounded tank class for present and future use. Seems to me there has been so much outcry over the years about certain skills but for some unknown reason fate refuses to look favorably upon them.

Litany and Shield Wall = doomed for eternity to be one of the least use skills in the guardian's toolbox.

Once again very undesirable skills to use in high tier raiding. Once again cutting the guardian's toolbox short. Once again limiting our usefulness.

P.S.
Just a reminder, please look into shield skills/animation speed. They are very slow and clunky !.

 

[Orion]

I understand the issue you are raising with Litany, I do. We can consider two potential approaches here:

1. You build suppressed forts while Litany is active
2. You gain a 50% chance to apply forts for a period of time once Litany expires

For your issues with Shield-spikes as a trait; it may be a bit of a disconnect. I understand, that as a player, you want to eke out every possible advantage and stat that you can; so you build mutiple trait tree configurations that allow you access to work arounds and advantage as you described. As a developer, who did not work on trait trees, it feels more like aa design oversight that the existing effects applied while in one configuration are not removed when moving to a new configuration. With that said, this functionality has existed for a long time and, clearly, some players take advantage of the way this functions - so changing it now would likely be widely reviled. At the same time, as a developer this is not behavior that I want to foster.

I get it, because it exists, it feels like this is intended behavior and artificial hurdles that were put in the way to diminish your quality of life; when, in truth, this was an emergent behavior that simply became an accepted form of gameplay - that now feels like punishment.

The tldr of what I am saying here is; no plans to change the current functionality - clearly the trait is worth having if you are willing to step through the hoops and take the risks as you have it applied, you just want to have the shield-spike benefit and other benefits at the same time. It is for us to provide you with choices and for you to decide how you utilize those choice.

On Turn the Tables, potentially.

On the new Protections by the Shield/Sword, testing will show if we need to reduce the range and then adjust either through traceries or other supplemental methods.

Set traits are additive bonuses they don't have to be spicy or non-flat and, as I am writing this, it occurs to me that it might be a good spot to insert a benefit to Litany of Defiance. Additionally, as stated, the tracery will be adjusted to support the new version of the trait as will all traceries affected by the refresh.

On Shield Wall, I have considered doing the following:

Sheld Wall
Fast - skill
Target Cannot Parry, Block, or Evade
Transfers damage from the target to the Guardian and reduces all transferred damage by 50%
Invokes Defiance of the Light for 60s

Defiance of the Light bars the use of Litany of Defiance, Juggernaut, and Shield Wall. This would, of course, mean the addition of Defiance of the Light to LoD, Jugg, and Shield Wall.

 

[Exogenesis]

On Shield Wall, I have considered doing the following:

Sheld Wall
Fast - skill
Target Cannot Parry, Block, or Evade
Transfers damage from the target to the Guardian and reduces all transferred damage by 50%
Invokes Defiance of the Light for 60s

Defiance of the Light bars the use of Litany of Defiance, Juggernaut, and Shield Wall. This would, of course, mean the addition of Defiance of the Light to LoD, Jugg, and Shield Wall.

What's the duration/cooldown?

I get it, because it exists, it feels like this is intended behavior and artificial hurdles that were put in the way to diminish your quality of life; when, in truth, this was an emergent behavior that simply became an accepted form of gameplay - that now feels like punishment.

The tldr of what I am saying here is; no plans to change the current functionality - clearly the trait is worth having if you are willing to step through the hoops and take the risks as you have it applied, you just want to have the shield-spike benefit and other benefits at the same time. It is for us to provide you with choices and for you to decide how you utilize those choice.

They do it because it's essentially free, and it's a power boost. Kinda just a design flaw of having out of combat traits in a trait tree system that is 99% focused on combat effects.

 

[Zipfile]

I understand the issue you are raising with Litany, I do. We can consider two potential approaches here:

1. You build suppressed forts while Litany is active
2. You gain a 50% chance to apply forts for a period of time once Litany expires

Go with option 1 and the skill is good. Parity with In Harms Way.
Maybe make the Attack Duration debuff into something....else....cause it's kinda not that big or impactful.

For your issues with Shield-spikes as a trait; it may be a bit of a disconnect. I understand, that as a player, you want to eke out every possible advantage and stat that you can; so you build mutiple trait tree configurations that allow you access to work arounds and advantage as you described. As a developer, who did not work on trait trees, it feels more like aa design oversight that the existing effects applied while in one configuration are not removed when moving to a new configuration. With that said, this functionality has existed for a long time and, clearly, some players take advantage of the way this functions - so changing it now would likely be widely reviled. At the same time, as a developer this is not behavior that I want to foster.

Again, I'll write my suggestion:

Improved Shield Spikes:
Gives 2% critical chance to all shield skills, 5 ranks.
(2/4/6/8/10%)

You keep the same functionality.
You keep the same idea.
You lose one of the many consumable bloats that are done simply for the sake of trait swapping.

Also, just because something has existed before, doesn't mean it can't be changed now. Minstrels weren't good damage dealers for literal years and now they're powerhouses that have a solid place in competitive raid comps. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

On Turn the Tables, potentially.

I don't believe I've ever experienced an issue where a Guardian was stunned outside of melee range of a mob he could stun back unless we're talking some forbidden techs from the past I will not mention.
This is a non-issue.

On the new Protections by the Shield/Sword, testing will show if we need to reduce the range and then adjust either through traceries or other supplemental methods.

Seems fair, 30m is a bit much, 15-20m is a lot better.

Set traits are additive bonuses they don't have to be spicy or non-flat

...so what's the point of a specialization then if you don't make set traits powerful with somewhat weaker traits.
You get a ton of cross-traiting only picking up the best parts from a dead trait line, look at Yellow Guardian again...or Blue Beorning.

...and, as I am writing this, it occurs to me that it might be a good spot to insert a benefit to Litany of Defiance. Additionally, as stated, the tracery will be adjusted to support the new version of the trait as will all traceries affected by the refresh.

Litany of Defiance doesn't have a tracery....unless I woke up from a coma again....

On Shield Wall, I have considered doing the following:

Sheld Wall
Fast - skill
Target Cannot Parry, Block, or Evade
Transfers damage from the target to the Guardian and reduces all transferred damage by 50%
Invokes Defiance of the Light for 60s

Defiance of the Light bars the use of Litany of Defiance, Juggernaut, and Shield Wall. This would, of course, mean the addition of Defiance of the Light to LoD, Jugg, and Shield Wall.

Doing this instantly makes 2 Guardians BIS tanks cause you'll have them Shield-walling each other for outright 50% damage reduction (not to mention redirect).
If it was a timed buff, with a longer cooldown, sure, then it can have uses, otherwise, big no, we almost had a similar dilemma in Abyss of Mordath.

Now, what on earth is Defiance of the Light? I don't quite follow nor to I understand the problem it's supported to be solving...you're overcomplicating things.

 

[Mojito]

I understand the issue you are raising with Litany, I do. We can consider two potential approaches here:

1. You build suppressed forts while Litany is active
2. You gain a 50% chance to apply forts for a period of time once Litany expires

For your issues with Shield-spikes as a trait; it may be a bit of a disconnect. I understand, that as a player, you want to eke out every possible advantage and stat that you can; so you build mutiple trait tree configurations that allow you access to work arounds and advantage as you described. As a developer, who did not work on trait trees, it feels more like aa design oversight that the existing effects applied while in one configuration are not removed when moving to a new configuration. With that said, this functionality has existed for a long time and, clearly, some players take advantage of the way this functions - so changing it now would likely be widely reviled. At the same time, as a developer this is not behavior that I want to foster.

I get it, because it exists, it feels like this is intended behavior and artificial hurdles that were put in the way to diminish your quality of life; when, in truth, this was an emergent behavior that simply became an accepted form of gameplay - that now feels like punishment.

The tldr of what I am saying here is; no plans to change the current functionality - clearly the trait is worth having if you are willing to step through the hoops and take the risks as you have it applied, you just want to have the shield-spike benefit and other benefits at the same time. It is for us to provide you with choices and for you to decide how you utilize those choice.

On Turn the Tables, potentially.

On the new Protections by the Shield/Sword, testing will show if we need to reduce the range and then adjust either through traceries or other supplemental methods.

Set traits are additive bonuses they don't have to be spicy or non-flat and, as I am writing this, it occurs to me that it might be a good spot to insert a benefit to Litany of Defiance. Additionally, as stated, the tracery will be adjusted to support the new version of the trait as will all traceries affected by the refresh.

On Shield Wall, I have considered doing the following:

Sheld Wall
Fast - skill
Target Cannot Parry, Block, or Evade
Transfers damage from the target to the Guardian and reduces all transferred damage by 50%
Invokes Defiance of the Light for 60s

Defiance of the Light bars the use of Litany of Defiance, Juggernaut, and Shield Wall. This would, of course, mean the addition of Defiance of the Light to LoD, Jugg, and Shield Wall.

Shield Wall:
Definitely a better alternative then what we have but I have concerns about Defiance of the Light. How would this work considering that Shield Wall is a toggle skill and can be maintained permanently (with exceptions, for example: skill range)? Will Defiance of the Light be a one time application or will it toggling between on and off position for the duration of S.W. and how often? And 60s might be a bit to long considering how you answer the previous questions.

Litany of Defiance:
I would prefer option #1

1. You build suppressed forts while Litany is active

Thanks Orion for giving this a 2nd thought.

 

[Mojito]

Doing this instantly makes 2 Guardians BIS tanks cause you'll have them Shield-walling each other for outright 50% damage reduction (not to mention redirect).
If it was a timed buff, with a longer cooldown, sure, then it can have uses, otherwise, big no, we almost had a similar dilemma in Abyss of Mordath.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the cappy and bear have similar skills ?
And again correct me if I'm wrong but why would a guard put S.W. on another guard if the 2nd guard will take all that damage and healer will have to heal him instead? I don't understand?

About the shield spikes, well I think I prefer the consumables. You can adds crit ratings to all shield skills w/o wasting points that might be better used somewhere else but you also have the option of increasing rating and duration of your spikes if you choose too.

 

[Rino90]

Shield of Light is a new addition, enhancing the effect of Protection by the Shield by adding more incoming damage reduction and increase in the amount of threat generated by shield skills.

Hi Orion. Can I get a little clarification on the Shield of Light bonuses in the table? Am I right to understand that for the first four levels we get 2% damage reduction for Protection by the Shield and 12% threat increase, and for the last one we get another 2% damage reduction and 15% threat increase? Or the bonuses at the bottom are already calculated values at the maximum pumping of this talent? But then it's not quite clear why it doesn't say 15% threat and 2.5% damage reduction (if the boost works at all five levels), or 12% and 2% (if only on first four levels).

 

[Exogenesis]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the cappy and bear have similar skills ?
And again correct me if I'm wrong but why would a guard put S.W. on another guard if the 2nd guard will take all that damage and healer will have to heal him instead? I don't understand?

Bear sacrifice is relatively low uptime and not 100%.
And for the second part this variant of Shield Wall has a 50% damage reduction applied to it, so the healer would need to heal the other guard but that guard is taking half the damage the first one would've received.

 

[Mojito]

Bear sacrifice is relatively low uptime and not 100%.
And for the second part this variant of Shield Wall has a 50% damage reduction applied to it, so the healer would need to heal the other guard but that guard is taking half the damage the first one would've received.

I get now thks.

 

[Orion]

Go with option 1 and the skill is good. Parity with In Harms Way.
Maybe make the Attack Duration debuff into something....else....cause it's kinda not that big or impactful.

Honestly, I am favoring option 2 in my head. Testing will work things out.

Again, I'll write my suggestion:

Improved Shield Spikes:
Gives 2% critical chance to all shield skills, 5 ranks.
(2/4/6/8/10%)

You keep the same functionality.
You keep the same idea.
You lose one of the many consumable bloats that are done simply for the sake of trait swapping.

Also, just because something has existed before, doesn't mean it can't be changed now. Minstrels weren't good damage dealers for literal years and now they're powerhouses that have a solid place in competitive raid comps. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You don't need to like my response - alas, my response is my response.

...so what's the point of a specialization then if you don't make set traits powerful with somewhat weaker traits.
You get a ton of cross-traiting only picking up the best parts from a dead trait line, look at Yellow Guardian again...or Blue Beorning.

You've convinced me. I will be removing all trait set bonuses. /sarcasm off

Individual trat set bonuses are not always amazing. If we determine that the trait offers to little we'll adjust.

Litany of Defiance doesn't have a tracery....unless I woke up from a coma again....

No, it does not. I was referencing the tracery for Adaptability. The full statement began with a discussion on Adaptability potentially picking up a modifier for Litany.

Doing this instantly makes 2 Guardians BIS tanks cause you'll have them Shield-walling each other for outright 50% damage reduction (not to mention redirect).
If it was a timed buff, with a longer cooldown, sure, then it can have uses, otherwise, big no, we almost had a similar dilemma in Abyss of Mordath.

Now, what on earth is Defiance of the Light? I don't quite follow nor to I understand the problem it's supported to be solving...you're overcomplicating things.

Shield wall would lost toggle, you should be mind readres, didn't call it out specifically.

 

[Orion]

Hi Orion. Can I get a little clarification on the Shield of Light bonuses in the table? Am I right to understand that for the first four levels we get 2% damage reduction for Protection by the Shield and 12% threat increase, and for the last one we get another 2% damage reduction and 15% threat increase? Or the bonuses at the bottom are already calculated values at the maximum pumping of this talent? But then it's not quite clear why it doesn't say 15% threat and 2.5% damage reduction (if the boost works at all five levels), or 12% and 2% (if only on first four levels).

2% is gained though ranks 1-4 and threat. Rank 5 you keep the 2%, move to 15% threat increase and increased target count.

 

[Olebenny]

I do think Litany and Shield Wall have many uses outside of raids, just restricted to smaller group content or casual play where the use is not as suicidal, I love having those skills around. Some minor changes would be welcome to make em more desirable to use

I understand the issue you are raising with Litany, I do. We can consider two potential approaches here:

1. You build suppressed forts while Litany is active
2. You gain a 50% chance to apply forts for a period of time once Litany expires

Id be alright with either of these

it occurs to me that it might be a good spot to insert a benefit to Litany of Defiance. Additionally, as stated, the tracery will be adjusted to support the new version of the trait as will all traceries affected by the refresh.

Adding some incoming healing bonus seems like a natural fit to a skill that increases your incoming damage. So does reducing that damage but Litany already has a functionality with it doubling your fortification mits and for shield wall...

On Shield Wall, I have considered doing the following:

Sheld Wall
Fast - skill
Target Cannot Parry, Block, or Evade
Transfers damage from the target to the Guardian and reduces all transferred damage by 50%
Invokes Defiance of the Light for 60s

The Defiance of the Light is a nifty choice, I don't like it but am down to clown with it. The 50% reduced transfer damage is troublesome to a high degree though. I think you will just end up with cheese strats like Fingar from Abyss T2C back at 115. Sure the idea is the inability to b/p/e is suppose to increase the damage taken so having the skill reduce it as it transfers would be a good choice

but

End game instances have changed, bosses like Shelob from Remm and Fingar from Abyss could not have their attacks avoided and thus a cappy always tanked them. When I stopped playing after months of Remm being out, a guard was still the only class to not have completed high tier Remm Shelob fights for this very reason, they just couldn't take the constant unavoidable damage. So lets go back in time to 115 and take a look at what happened

Guard blue set bonus from Abyss gear was -33% transfered damage from shield wall. So you still needed 2 tanks for Fingar, cappy on the boss, guard on the dwarf king dude. But for the 10-15minutes before the dwarf king spawned, when a guard had that set bonus they would shield wall the cappy and stand to the side because why not? None of fingars attacks could be avoided so taking the 33% damage reduction to make sure a large portion of the fight went off without a hitch is a no-brainer.

If shield wall inately gets a -50% damage reduction then I predict it will cause some waves in group content, mainly raids, as groups find cheeky ways to tank the boss damage like that.

To me the best course of action would be to give shield wall a +ich% bonus while activated, but then the guard might just shield wall someone that is taking no damage to get the buff for himself, would that be desired? Or lower that 50% damage reduction way down to like 10%. I think trying to give some extra bonus to shield wall is simply difficult to balance... Just the fact it can always be on barring any stuns makes the bonuses to the skill have to go under a microscope, its intended to be used on someone taking damage but what stops a guard from using it on people taking very little damage so he can just have the bonuses for free without the penalty of the skill going on cooldown

 

[Cap]

Litany and Shield Wall are fine as is, high stakes skills for saving fellows in high pressure situations.

Defiance of Light sounds like a good way to add Juggernaut to the "I never use this skill" pile some of my fellow guardians seem to have. I think the block/parry chain locks us out of enough of our survival skills without adding major cooldowns to the lot.

 

[Mojito]

Bear sacrifice is relatively low uptime and not 100%.
And for the second part this variant of Shield Wall has a 50% damage reduction applied to it, so the healer would need to heal the other guard but that guard is taking half the damage the first one would've received.

I gave this some thought and the solution would be simple, bar the guardian from using it on another guardian who is using Shield Wall on anyone else. This would prevent any abuse. So in other words, a guardian with an active Shield Wall can not have a Shield Wall placed on him. Simple but effective. Sorta the same thing they did w/ captains when they prevented them from putting SotD on themselves.