Guardian Refresh - Support Tree - The Fighter of Shadow

Zipfile

Well-known member
And also: given how truly awful Guardian stat derivations are, Keen Blade Guardians tend to end up as far squishier than Champions and Hunters and even Wardens (I'm also curious about your exact mitigation percentages, Zip? For better or worse, you're usually considered to be one of the best Keen Blade Guardians in the community).

I'll just rephrase what I said before:

Regarding Blue, Guardian gets more than enough from Heavy Shields, Bows and traits, don't really need much here, a bit of a finesse bump, but nothing extra.

Regarding Red, however, Guardian is in shambles, however it isn't without possible fixes.

Switching Tenderize from Parrying attacks to playing Parry Responses as a means of getting Critical Rating outright solves everything. I mentioned before that, with maxed out Tenderize (assuming rank 5 of the trait gets fixed) Guardian gains 9 Lively Essences worth of Critical Rating, which can be reinvested into Mitigations or other stats.
This easily solves the issue for Red.


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These are my stats, unbuffed with anything.
It's a bit better with buffs, but a far cry from what other classes can get.
 

NotAnEnt

Well-known member
@Zipfile thanks for the reply! My thinking would be to, instead of changing Tenderize (which isn’t particularly reliable given that it empties out when you use Sting) add the Guardian’s Ward enhancement that Orion mentioned in a previous iteration of the changes.

I think the Ward enhancement was a phys mastery rating bonus to the GW buff, as a parallel to the tact mit bonus to GW available in the blue line.

This would have a similar effect to the Tenderize change (in that it would effectively free up some essence slots, albeit by phys mastery instead of crit rating), except that it would be more reliable.
 

Zipfile

Well-known member
@Zipfile thanks for the reply! My thinking would be to, instead of changing Tenderize (which isn’t particularly reliable given that it empties out when you use Sting) add the Guardian’s Ward enhancement that Orion mentioned in a previous iteration of the changes.

I think the Ward enhancement was a phys mastery rating bonus to the GW buff, as a parallel to the tact mit bonus to GW available in the blue line.

This would have a similar effect to the Tenderize change (in that it would effectively free up some essence slots, albeit by phys mastery instead of crit rating), except that it would be more reliable.

Tenderize doesn't (and hadn't for years now) removed Critical Rating when using Sting.
It's just a flat buff every time you Parry an attack.
 

Orion

Lead Designer
1) Demoralizing Anthem does not have its currently live 5th point bonus in your post, just the range boost. Is that intended or will it retain the active reaction skill CD reduction at 5 points?

Demoralizing Anthem is keeping bonus targets, cooldown reduction, and capping at the 100% range.
2) As others have noted, the bonuses on Light Touched being increased by 0.20% per level are far too low.
It could be, we will see.
3) I'm not sold on Bastion of Light in its current form:
A) I'm not convinced that making it a "good" puddle is a good idea.​
B) Linking Radiate to Bastion of Light seems like a bad idea that will greatly slow the speed of de-buff spreading, especially in comparison to how fast they can be spread with AoE spam in the current form; seems like a massive downgrade.​
i) How often can it spread? What's the cooldown on the skill? What's the duration?​
ii) Does it spread on DoT ticks when upgraded with Flash of Light or does it only work when foes initially enter it (either by walking in or having a new puddle dropped)?​
iii) If it only works when enemies enter the zone that kills this trait outright, no one is going to want the tank dragging the mobs back and forth through the puddle to spread debuffs, and it likely won't be worth the effort on the tank's part anyway.​
C) This is meant to replace the current version of Warrior's Heart but doesn't include the miss chance or making non-damaging debuffs permanent, that's a big downgrade.​
Alone, Bastion of Light marks any target that is within its volume so that they can have debuffs applied to them. That is the benefit of the baseline ability.

Add radiate into the mix, now the debuffs can spread. Spreading is now dependent on the targets being within the Bastion of Light hotspot and are spread via skill use - Bastion of Light should allow for a 100% uptime. Initially a 20s duration to the created hotspot and 20s cooldown. These can be modfied with trait Flash of light to increase the duration to 25s. There are some contingencies in the background that if this proves to onerous a task to allow for one of the traits to also reduce cooldowns - or to make this a tracery effect.

No, DoT ticks do not spread existing debuffs, only active skills spread debuffs. Anytime a mob is within the Bastion of Light effect and Flash of Light is traited they will take damage every 3 seconds. The damage is not overwhelming, but it is constant and another place where we are creating some flexibility in traceries, sets, etc...

No, it is not meant to replace Warrior's Heart. It is meant to replace Take to Heart. The miss chance was moved, but could return to the baseline hotspot.
4) Could we swap out the Evade and Partial Evade boost on Warrior's Guile? Evade has no additional synergy with our toolkit and we'd be better served with a boost to anything else. People will take this trait for the Tactical Mitigation alone, so please make it also boost anything other than Evade!
If you look at the other Warrior's (Name) traits, while the evade is not something that the guardian toolkit responds too, every additional measure of defence is a benefit and it keeps in flavor with the other traits and their benefits. It's not something that we are planning on adjusting unless there is something terrible egregious that is discovered.

5) Singular Focus in its current form is useless and this looks no better. As a "capstone" it should be a percentage based incoming damage debuff to ensure it scales and works properly without constant tweaking.
Honestly, we're still playing around with this one and it is likely to change during Bullroarer's while we find the right fit.

6) I am happy to see that there's enough traits here that even if you're still technically specced into another line, you can still build I primarily Fighter of Shadow Guardian.
This was the point of moving this to a utility tree. Now both Defenders of the Free and Keen Blades can cherry pick the best traits for the way that they want to play.

And finally:
7) Playing Defender of the Free is like riding a bicycle with training wheels on. Why are we keeping that trait line again? Was there ever any serious consideration given to nuking it instead?
First and foremost, the Guardian is the primary Tank class in LotRO. Second, it is designated as a difficulty tier of basic. So the fact that you feel like the primary tree on a basic difficulty class is like playing with training wheel means that we must be doing something right. Why are we keeping it? See my previous sentences. Was there any consideration to remove it? No, we want the basic tank to be relatively easy to play, a little more nuanced to excel, and requires some dedication to master. We feel, with the changes coming to the guardian, that this will be achieved.
 
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targ

his badness
orion do you have any additional plans for cataclysmic shout?
the only change you listed was that it will have an increased cost in trait points (i would assume that would be 3 then, looking at how this worked for mini and warden).
but if the skill remains as is - underwhelming damage, underwhelming stun, and that on a CD the same as warriors heart - then an increased cost in trait points will make it even more frustrating.

any chance you could give the skill a reason to have such a long CD (spread singular focus or somerhing), or reduce it's CD way down (30s would probably be alright)?
 

NotAnEnt

Well-known member
orion do you have any additional plans for cataclysmic shout?
the only change you listed was that it will have an increased cost in trait points (i would assume that would be 3 then, looking at how this worked for mini and warden).
but if the skill remains as is - underwhelming damage, underwhelming stun, and that on a CD the same as warriors heart - then an increased cost in trait points will make it even more frustrating.

any chance you could give the skill a reason to have such a long CD (spread singular focus or somerhing), or reduce it's CD way down (30s would probably be alright)?

Agreed. Although imo the best enhancement to CS would be a response skills cooldown reset. That would make it worthwhile.
 

Orion

Lead Designer
orion do you have any additional plans for cataclysmic shout?
the only change you listed was that it will have an increased cost in trait points (i would assume that would be 3 then, looking at how this worked for mini and warden).
but if the skill remains as is - underwhelming damage, underwhelming stun, and that on a CD the same as warriors heart - then an increased cost in trait points will make it even more frustrating.

any chance you could give the skill a reason to have such a long CD (spread singular focus or somerhing), or reduce it's CD way down (30s would probably be alright)?
Before we get to testing, unlikely. That does not mean that there are not possible changes for this and other skills.

We do need to start testing to get a better understanding of what the confluence of changes that we are making will do to impact the overall gameplay.

The goal with the changes to Fighter of Shadow, while stripping away the capacity to specialize into the tree, is to allow it to remain and live on as the augmentation that it was more oftens used for in current live play. This is not meant to undercut those who played the tree, rather to highlight, that though the trait tree may be gone, the soul is still there and should be visible when traited into the refreshed Defender and Keen lines.
 

targ

his badness
Before we get to testing, unlikely. That does not mean that there are not possible changes for this and other skills.

We do need to start testing to get a better understanding of what the confluence of changes that we are making will do to impact the overall gameplay.

The goal with the changes to Fighter of Shadow, while stripping away the capacity to specialize into the tree, is to allow it to remain and live on as the augmentation that it was more oftens used for in current live play. This is not meant to undercut those who played the tree, rather to highlight, that though the trait tree may be gone, the soul is still there and should be visible when traited into the refreshed Defender and Keen lines.
i'm sure anyone who plays fighter of shadow rn will agree that the skill is missing something. everybody loves the animation, it is one of - if not THE best looking skill animation in the game (according to many). but it really doesn't have a lot going for it (especially due to the long CD - the skill would be perfectly fine if the CD was ~30s).

i think nobody would be upset if the skill became more useful, but i understand that testing beforehand would be a good idea.
 

Kogyr

Well-known member
Before we get to testing, unlikely. That does not mean that there are not possible changes for this and other skills.

We do need to start testing to get a better understanding of what the confluence of changes that we are making will do to impact the overall gameplay.

The goal with the changes to Fighter of Shadow, while stripping away the capacity to specialize into the tree, is to allow it to remain and live on as the augmentation that it was more oftens used for in current live play. This is not meant to undercut those who played the tree, rather to highlight, that though the trait tree may be gone, the soul is still there and should be visible when traited into the refreshed Defender and Keen lines.

Take to the Heart was a mark and a nice ranged pull on creatures. Traited in Yellow gave a chance of healing from Take to the Heart. This removal is what is undercutting my ability to continue to playing a guardian. So for me you did remove the soul from this line.
 

Zipfile

Well-known member
Take to the Heart was a mark and a nice ranged pull on creatures. Traited in Yellow gave a chance of healing from Take to the Heart. This removal is what is undercutting my ability to continue to playing a guardian. So for me you did remove the soul from this line.

Fray....Let Fly.

And heal became relatively redundant given all the nerfs. Especially it's annoying tendency to proc when you're on full morale, wasting it.
Not to mention all the other healing Guardian has. A levelling Brawler would burn down a house to get even a fraction of what Guardian gets.
 

Kogyr

Well-known member
Fray....Let Fly.

And heal became relatively redundant given all the nerfs. Especially it's annoying tendency to proc when you're on full morale, wasting it.
Not to mention all the other healing Guardian has. A levelling Brawler would burn down a house to get even a fraction of what Guardian gets.

Fray does nothing but for a solo player but pull. Take to heart pulls and applies a chance for healing.

Use Take to Heart and then use Let if Fly. The healing from Take to heart is not redundant for me. I can do difficult content solo in yellow trait line where using blue or red I can not. In my opinion Take the breath is too long CD and the health returned is not great. With the landscape difficulty set so the eye of sauron is on the healing from take the heart is a big difference in survival.
 

NotAnEnt

Well-known member
Fray does nothing but for a solo player but pull. Take to heart pulls and applies a chance for healing.

Use Take to Heart and then use Let if Fly. The healing from Take to heart is not redundant for me. I can do difficult content solo in yellow trait line where using blue or red I can not. In my opinion Take the breath is too long CD and the health returned is not great. With the landscape difficulty set so the eye of sauron is on the healing from take the heart is a big difference in survival.

All true... however, look at it this way: now, instead of pulling with TTH, you pull from blue line (2h) with Fray. This gets you dealing 2h damage
(assuming you pick up some traits from red, namely Thrust, TTK, heavy training), but taking advantage of Bolstering Blocks healing from 2H blocks. You'll still have healing potential, except you'll be augmenting it with blue set bonuses.

Besides, the CaB heal is (with the tracery, without the tracery, it's a lot weaker) pretty good imo. It's a substantial chunk of your max morale, and it benefits from inc healing so it can be boosted even higher too. And, with War-chant, the cooldown is ~30 secs with isn't really that long.
 

Tepee

Well-known member
All true... however, look at it this way: now, instead of pulling with TTH, you pull from blue line (2h) with Fray. This gets you dealing 2h damage
(assuming you pick up some traits from red, namely Thrust, TTK, heavy training), but taking advantage of Bolstering Blocks healing from 2H blocks. You'll still have healing potential, except you'll be augmenting it with blue set bonuses.

Besides, the CaB heal is (with the tracery, without the tracery, it's a lot weaker) pretty good imo. It's a substantial chunk of your max morale, and it benefits from inc healing so it can be boosted even higher too. And, with War-chant, the cooldown is ~30 secs with isn't really that long.
Don't make me laugh with that 2h blue spec nonsense.
There is absolutely no reason to go 2h in blue, because you cannot apply Fortification without a shield. Who exactly want to spec in a line when you cannot use your spec bonus, and 2 of your bonus traits?

Also, CaB heals a good amount, yes, but with the current plans, in red line it would be cut in half.

Conclusion: soloing harder content or higher landscape difficulties would only be possible in blue line 1h+shield. Which would be boring and slow, and also slow, and maybe a bit boring.
 

NotAnEnt

Well-known member
Don't make me laugh with that 2h blue spec nonsense.
There is absolutely no reason to go 2h in blue, because you cannot apply Fortification without a shield. Who exactly want to spec in a line when you cannot use your spec bonus, and 2 of your bonus traits?

Also, CaB heals a good amount, yes, but with the current plans, in red line it would be cut in half.

Conclusion: soloing harder content or higher landscape difficulties would only be possible in blue line 1h+shield. Which would be boring and slow, and also slow, and maybe a bit boring.

For solo? Forts are easy. Build 'em up with 1h + shield on the first mob, then after defeating them, switch to 2h. As long as you don't wait too long between fights, you get to enjoy 2h + forts. Of course the same goes for red though, if you wanted to go all the way with your forts.
 

Kogyr

Well-known member
All true... however, look at it this way: now, instead of pulling with TTH, you pull from blue line (2h) with Fray. This gets you dealing 2h damage
(assuming you pick up some traits from red, namely Thrust, TTK, heavy training), but taking advantage of Bolstering Blocks healing from 2H blocks. You'll still have healing potential, except you'll be augmenting it with blue set bonuses.

Besides, the CaB heal is (with the tracery, without the tracery, it's a lot weaker) pretty good imo. It's a substantial chunk of your max morale, and it benefits from inc healing so it can be boosted even higher too. And, with War-chant, the cooldown is ~30 secs with isn't really that long.

One I don't play a 2H Guardian. I play a sword and board. Bolstering blocks requires 30 points in blue tree to get. Doesn't help at lower level and the same with Catch A Breath. Catch a breath isn't available till level 30 and the CD is longer than other classes at lower level.
 

Tepee

Well-known member
For solo? Forts are easy. Build 'em up with 1h + shield on the first mob, then after defeating them, switch to 2h. As long as you don't wait too long between fights, you get to enjoy 2h + forts. Of course the same goes for red though, if you wanted to go all the way with your forts.
Yeah, sure I would do that, completely reasonable... :cautious:

I just said that don't mash blue line together with 2h weapon. Switching back and forth is pseudo-exploit, and sure, it's completely legal, it just breaks the game for me.
 

NotAnEnt

Well-known member
Yeah, sure I would do that, completely reasonable... :cautious:

I just said that don't mash blue line together with 2h weapon. Switching back and forth is pseudo-exploit, and sure, it's completely legal, it just breaks the game for me.

Absolutely. I was just offering the best solution I could think of to @Kogyr 's lack-of-consistent-micro-heals woes.
 

DoRonRon

Well-known member
It's sounding like a lot comes together with access to the later traits marrying with early ones. And a good few years away for a S&B keen guard.

That basic game play tag of that splash screen, have mixed feelings; bring more talent to it and have an edge but each dance move making every other tank swap more anxiety for the group when believing that tag as the limit.
 
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