Crafting Update: Now and into Corsairs of Umbar

[Elmagor]

Suggestion: Main purpose with separating between crafting tiers was allowing player spend less time farming resources for crafting tiers what they don't need, in locations what don't have much resource nodes and don't have resource instances.

BUT we still have crafting guilds and umbar crafting guilds will have daily/weekly quests, right? What if you just add daily/weekly quests for current crafting guilds (1-140 level), with bigger crafting resource box as reward, simular to delving/missions crafting box, but with bigger amount of resources? Such thing can help players build crafting faster

 

[Narangren Tirthallion]

Yes! The silver lining to all of this is that professions are still de-coupled from vocations and we are still going to allow a 4th profession.

This should still be possible. We are investigating if the necessity of separating these still exists.


It would defeat the purpose and intent of the event to turn it into a beat a timer event.

That's the only bit that was important to me, and I'm very excited. Thank you for the confirmation.

 

[Onno]

The fact that people felt so comfortable posting how to cheat on the official forums and other social media reflects very poorly on the event, the players, etc. It feels as if there are no consequences for those who cheated and gained from doing so. They really ruined the whole idea of the event and the work put into developing the event.

I don't want to derail Orion's thread and start a personal discussion here, but I just have to clarify this:

You obviously got this totally backwards. I for one didn't post openly about the exploit and how to cheat in this forum because I felt comfortable about using them. (I did not cheat myself. Otherwise, why would I post about it? A cheater would lose their advantage in a competitive event if everybody else uses the same method.)

I (and I think that's true for others, too) did this so SSG would have to react and do something about it - ASAP.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think it was necessary, because this event became rapidly unpopular, as you can clearly see from other threads about this topic. Which is very unfortunate, because I think Orion's original concept for this event is great.

To be clear: I love this event, I want it to continue and I would be glad if as much people as possible would have fun with it. And I hope there will be many more crafting events in the future, despite it's ongoing problems.


And that, to quote Forrest Gump, is all I have to say about that (at least in this thread)

 

[Neinda]

I don't want to derail this thread and start an off-topic discussion here, but I just have to clarify this:

You obviously got this totally backwards. I for one didn't post openly about the exploit and how to cheat in this forum because I felt comfortable about using them. (I did not cheat myself. Otherwise, why would I post about it? A cheater would lose their advantage in a competitive event if everybody else uses the same method.)

I (and I think that's true for others, too) did this so SSG would have to react and do something about it - ASAP.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think it was necessary, because this event became rapidly unpopular, as you can clearly see from other threads about this topic. Which is very unfortunate, because I think Orion's concept for this event is great.

To be clear: I love this event, I want it to continue and I would be glad if as much people as possible would have fun with it. And I hope there will be many more crafting events in the future.

And that, to quote Forrest Gump, is all I have to say about it (in this thread)

I will not and did not name any names. SSG has a good idea of who cheated and that is what matters. There were so many posts everywhere on how to cheat that I was horrified by how open the exploits were is all. Please do not think I am naming you are anyone. Those that cheated know they cheated and they probably had a good laugh over ruining this event for the majority of the player base. This is the first time in all the years I played the game that cheating was so public. It felt like the actual contest was who could cheat the most. The fact that people are talking about the next way to cheat when the contest becomes active again worries me about the future of the event and the game.

My apologies. I had no specific person in mind when I gave my opinion on cheaters.

 

[Onno]

My suggestion is to just add an item to every crafting profession and at every tier that gives lots and lots of Craft XP. That way you can just skip your way through all of the old outdated tiers that nobody cares about and get straight to the last cap easily. The Umbar craft tier is then open to everyone, and there's no need to grind through lower tiers that mean absolutely nothing to anyone. Only the current most tier would be missing these uber-Craft XP items, until the next inevitable tier appears. (...) For the sake of players, this would provide access to Umbar tier just as was intended. For the devs, it's a much easier solution to implement as well for future tiers.

I think that's a great idea and it shouldn't be much of a hussle for the devs, as such items already exist (in principle).

If I'm not mistaken, the "Expertise Recipes" and "Tokens" available in Skirmish Camps for a few marks have this effect.
Well, I mean, the ones available give very little crafting xp, like 35 points, and they have a 3-day-cooldown or something like that, but those numbers should be adjustable with new versions of these items.

Make them available at a crafting vendor for little coin (instead of hiding them at the back of a 14 or so page menu at some obscure Skirmish Camp NPC) and perhaps combine this with a server-wide +500 % crafting xp buff for a couple of days/weeks, that should help new players (if such a thing even exists ...) reach the new Umbar-tier without much effort.

 

[Macdui]

Jeez

Nice to see an old familiar face, as yet to suffer the ravages of time...
Cutting to the nub as usual.

/touchesnose
You ain't seen me...

 

[Piedtendre]

Second and more important, we have some unwanted news about Umbar crafting. As I have stated, we intended to uncouple and grant Umbar recipes at the outset of the expansion, making the Umbar crafting tier independent from all previous craft tiers. While diligently working to bring this to fruition behind the scenes, we've hit an unfortunate wall of ancient code that firmly stated, "You shall not pass!"

Hello Orion, at first, thanks a lot for your work. Second, for me, that's good news. An I strongly hope that the same will be true for the separate "crafting Guild" for Umbar (please forget it).
Why ? Because I really dislike when you (SSG) create new system over new system etc ... Instead of improving the existing (ie: skirmish<epic battles<delving).
For me, the crafting and the crafting guild system is quite ok, the tier system is ok, the Guild system is ok. It just need some work to improve it.

Make the low tiers easier (quicker) to finish (craft and guild). Give more xp to everything done ? With shorter CDs ?

An more important, give crafting a reason to exist at every level (they are some big gaps at some levels). For me, crafting should create stuff a bit better than quest at every level for everyone, with basic ingredient from the open world.
An after that, give Crafting and Guild Crafting access to better stuff with rare ingredients (from dungeon, epic story, skirmish, delving ... ).

Please, no new system over/mix/duplicate system.

Good luck for your work.
Sorry for my poor english, tired after work too.

 

[istvana]

Until we have a solution for the previous tiers, this would not be possible.

If you do not have a separate Umbar crafting guild you *could* use this approach to let people bring reputation with the old guilds up to Umbar level. I say this with great confidence since you already give out items that provide crafting guild reputation boosts. I refrain from expressing an opinion on whether this would be a good idea.

Come to think of it you already sell boosts to maximum tier crafting. You could include these with Umbar or in certain Umbar packages.

 

[Disquiet]

Haven't we all been gathering lowbie crafting mats the last few months to cover getting this vocation profession up to scratch? Use them to making it up to Umbar tier. And saving scholar rep 10k tokens for that last gathering vocation profession for all our explorers?

Hope no one pre-purchased before taking a look at beta and this suddenly found impasse (the DAY that beta is intended to go LIVE) is going to effect them, having opened the goodies already and no chance for a refund.

They say timing is the key to comedy. So I have to /laugh

 

[aleczander]

As always, thank you for your honesty, Orion. I'm very excited that the vocation system is still going away and a fourth profession is still in production. There's more good news than bad here, I think. You have my deepest condolences for all the dread of working with ancient code and having to give bad news about it.

One thing I'd like us to return to in this Forester Event discussion is the tuning of the barter amounts required for the various rewards. We've all seen the multiple threads about this lately -- it's a very important topic that can/will make or break the success of these crafting events.

I approach is like this: during the Fall Festival, I can do all the quests daily, and by the end of 3 weeks I can get most of what I want. That's ok, since it's only once a year. I really expected something similar with the crafting events - daily participation with my crafting toon leading to a tangible reward after something like 3 weeks worth (21 days) of participation. To me, the sweet spot lies somewhere around there.

On the other hand, if my crafting toon will not get an axe, or axe upgrade, or cosmetic upgrade, for months and months (and that's just the Forester event and not counting the other future events) of daily grind, then I lose sight of the goal entirely and this becomes a time-waster. Time-wasters are those sort of activities that do so little for the progression of my toons that their position on my priority list lands near the bottom, and they never see the light of day.

 

[Vilan]

It would defeat the purpose and intent of the event to turn it into a beat a timer event.

I would think the intent to be "the best forester wins", but it seems more like "the luckiest forester wins". Skill does play some part, but if you get hosed by the RNG picking up your axe or getting the wrong drinks, you just lose regardless of skill. The festival horse races were changed from beat-the-other-players to a timed event to make the race more skill-oriented. The same idea would seem to apply here.

Completely unrelated. I picked up the "is a Lumberjack" title last night and it bestows a passive skill as well as the title. Why is the skill there? It doesn't seem to have any use whatsoever. Some kind of deed that unlocks when you acquire X forester-related skills?

 

[Disquiet]

Maybe someone should take a look at the rewards from real life competitive sport; like those from that Formula One championship. Where points are not so unfairly delivered and even if the Guy in the Redbull wins most there is still a real financial gain in being higher up on the championship table right up until the last race of the season. Not all teams giving up after two races knowing that it's Verstappen season whatever they do.

 

[Linarian]

Good morning.

This post is one of those posts that, as a designer, you dread making.

There are two announcements around crafting this morning.

First and least importantly, we are deactivating the forester event a few days early due to some exploits that evaded our detection and the bad actors taking advantage of those exploits. We're closing the exploits for the next round of the event.

Second and more important, we have some unwanted news about Umbar crafting. As I have stated, we intended to uncouple and grant Umbar recipes at the outset of the expansion, making the Umbar crafting tier independent from all previous craft tiers. While diligently working to bring this to fruition behind the scenes, we've hit an unfortunate wall of ancient code that firmly stated, "You shall not pass!"

It is unfortunate and unavoidable we cannot separate the tiers in this manner. Crafters must complete the previous proficiency tier to access the Umbar craft tier. This revelation is a big disappointment for me and the capper on a not-so-great crafting weekend.
Post questions in this thread, and I will answer them soon.

Orion, I would also like to take a moment to thank you for this post. Lotro is a magical world and I congratulate you and the team for maintaining it and bring us so much joy. Please continue to keep us posted

 

[Belechael]

As an old timer I have no problem leveling any new character's profession to max with gathered mats from other characters, so I am also not disappointed.

If Umbar crafting offers BiS items, like in Mordor, and some new players want to get them, they can always ask their friends and kin mates, so I don't expect a big problem there. As to your long term plans though, I hope it doesn't hamper them too much.

Now, regarding the forester event: Who is it exactly for?

It is NOT for those with a few alts.
It is NOT for those with just a few hours to play during peak time.
It is NOT for those that prefer raiding and monster play.

So, who is it for?

The reason I am asking is that from what I have seen there were a lot of frustrated players after realizing how many hours and hours they would need to dedicate to get a subpar tool to the ones available right now. Not to mention the cosmetics, skills, etc.

Granted, we don't have the big picture yet, but from my experience frustrated customers do not return even after the product/service has improved. And there are a lot right now, even without considering those jaded by the exploiters.

 

[Disquiet]

It's very much for those who recognise that having any more than the minimum number of production crafters going forward and relinquishing every other alt's chosen profession (and make them all gathers instead with a fourth on the way) and take them all through every event on offer until they start being crafting tier dependent. Then react accordingly as and when that happens, ever in expectation of a change for the worse.

I'd disagree on one point though, there are plenty who keep on buying whatever the Market flags as "Recommended" however each purchase might disappoint or not meet expectations, yet has them repeat the cycle over and over. Does anyone think that they will remember by next November and the obligatory mini expansion of recommendation?

 

[Onno]

So, who is it for?

The reason I am asking is that from what I have seen there were a lot of frustrated players after realizing how many hours and hours they would need to dedicate to get a subpar tool to the ones available right now. Not to mention the cosmetics, skills, etc.

Granted, we don't have the big picture yet, but from my experience frustrated customers do not return even after the product/service has improved. And there are a lot right now, even without considering those jaded by the exploiters.

Indeed. If you ignore (or better, prevent ) all the cheating/exploits, the event is still doomed to fail because of it's reward structure.

If a dev would take his time to actually look at what's going on, he would notice that there are lots of (casual) players who start a run, have no chance at all against a handful of experts with lots of toons who have already run the event dozens of times and have the processes down to perfection. They take a look at the reward vendor, see that they would have to play ages for their reward, shake their head and then leave, most likely never to return. (Okay, you won't actually see them shake their heads, but I imagine them doing it )

Instead of 1 winner ribbon = 10 runner up ribbons = 100 participation ribbons,
their value should (imho) be more like 1 to 3 to 5 or even 1 to 2 to 3.

This has been pointed out to Orion since the first beta, but he insists that as this event is supposed to last for years on end, it's perfectly fine that you have to really work for your rewards. Maybe he's right, because sure, the 'experts' will probably leave once they have have all their rewards, but I'm not sure if the casual players will ever come back to it after their initial bad experience. If there isn't that big of a gap between 1st and 4th place, however, I'm sure there will be a much bigger incentive to keep going.

 

[maartena]

I am actually not disappointed by this.

No, me neither. I understand the reasoning behind it, so that people who Valar'd up their toon to 140 can just complete one crafting tier and immediately be able to craft gear and items for the level they actually Valar'd to, but I have kept my crafting fairly up to date, and at the very least most of my crafters are up to at least doomfold, several up to Gundabad.

With VIP you get speed crafting, so it won't take a long time at all to get up to date.

 

[IanMacLyr]

Until we have a solution for the previous tiers, this would not be possible.

Got it. Thanks!

 

[Bombus]

The issue we found requires a system rewrite.

In a nutshell, the craft system is one of the first systems created for the game. It's over twenty years old, and the integration weaves through the game like an intricate spider's web.

Uncoupling the tiers would take time incommensurate with the gain from making the change.

Could you make the skirmish crafting exp tokens that currently do insignificant exp, provide meaningful (full bars of) exp. Also remove the CD on their use and expand them up through Gundabad.

Essentially you leave it that it's required to tier up, but make getting exp really easy (i.e. buy tokens with marks then level up crafting). This gives you the best of both worlds. You don't have to change the 20-year-old code, and you can quickly grant a ton of exp to players that want to fast track to Umbar. Coincidentally, it also lets people who want to grind for nodes the "old" way, keep their path, too.

Other option would be to lower the cost of the crafting level up in the store to 10 LP.

 

[Cap]

The issue we found requires a system rewrite.

In a nutshell, the craft system is one of the first systems created for the game. It's over twenty years old, and the integration weaves through the game like an intricate spider's web.

Uncoupling the tiers would take time incommensurate with the gain from making the change.

I'll admit I was excited at the idea of a thriving Umbari crafting scene on Day One, but the crafting-first-since-2008 player in me doesn't mind having a leg up for my trouble.

And honestly, the prospect of revamping old tiers sooner than later is more exciting to me than de-linearization. I'm seeing so many new players streaming and in-game just basking in the landscape while leveling that I think it's wayyy more meaningful to smooth out crafting progression ASAP. And if you can implement evergreen rewards that send us vets back to old stomping grounds, even better.

I don't envy the work you've had to do digging through decades of code to figure out how everything is pieced together, but it's obviously important work for the future of the game and I appreciate having your legacy knowledge and perspective available.

Speaking of the future.... how about server-wide crafting guild reward tracks?