Let’s Discuss Monster Play

[GB-Esty]

I think the only way to fix PvMP is to get creep/freep balance under control once and for all. As you note, the core game-play has seen staggering little change in 15 years because the constant need to rebalance the sides after every PvE content update has consumed all of the limited development time. Unfortunately, I fear that the changes you've outlined will fall into this same cycle even if they provide a short reprieve, as whilst zone-wide debuffs may require less time to rebalance they will still require regular revisions (as will any rewards you're planning from DoF). Instead, we need a permanent change, even if it requires a larger initial investment.

As I see it, there are two different approaches to this, both of which involve decoupling PvMP from the rest of the game:

1. Remove freeps from the Moors and create session-play based clones of the creep classes. This would be my preferred option but I see you've already ruled this out for reasons I don't entirely follow.
2. Level cap the zone (i.e. to lv 50 or 65) and downscale any freep that enters. This would include limiting their trait points and items, with no LI's or essence gear.

I suspect that either of these options would be time-consuming to introduce as they involve engineering new systems but frankly we've already had 15 years of wasted time from temporary solutions. Likewise, any time you devote now will similarly have been wasted come the next PvE update. Once balance is sorted for good we can finally start introducing the fun new mechanics that would actually draw people into the area. The alternative is that we'll keep looping back to this same crossroad, and at some point it will inevitably be decided that it's a path not worth treading.

[Velvet_Underground]

Orion,

Great seeing you back! I haven't played regularly in 10 years due to the games myriad of issues. Generally play for a few weeks before logging out because Im reminded why I quit playing to begin with. Logged in yesterday after almost 1700 days without playing at all and came across a minstrel named Ohrion at a Grams Camp Shuffle.

If that was you, I just wanted to thank you for playing the game. I can't tell you how many times I've wondered if Turbine and SSG devs even bothered to play their game. I reason that by getting out there and really taking a look at how things play live on the servers, things could be improved. At the very least, it tells me you have a genuine interest in trying to develop this game in a way the player base and IP deserve. When the game is playing right its no doubt one of the best experiences out there. On Elendilmir there was too much fun to be had. It was very addictive as the server never slept. The community built around PvP was unlike any gaming experience I've ever had in any game. That was slowly choked out by all the well known issues already described.

Best wishes to you and yours during this endeavor. I look forward to monitoring your progress as we move forward, and I truly hope your effort is wildly successful.

Cheers... For Elendilmir!

[Quig]

and before I forget it, give us back the stars I wanna again see the rating

This is the worst idea. This encourages people to hit and run and creates a bad form of game play. Glad that has gone.

[Whoeverr]

One can only hope.

[BimBamBom]

If you really want balance you can start from the obvious.

1. No Li in the moors - give freeps a basic moors weapon. Creeps don't have anything even remotely equivalent to Li power.

2. No more Horses in the moors - give them maps, and 'March' buff skill.

3. More creep trait slots - this should have been obvious for a very long time now, have no idea how you missed it. (relating to #1) This will help to dissipate some of the supper high hitting skills freeps have. I have seen creeps get blown with 1.5 million dmg and more. Creeps need 4-6 more corruptions, 2 more racial, 2-3 class.

4. Certain classes need a revamp or at least a reduction in the moors, could be easily related to #1 as these skills come mainly from Li - doesn't make sense a Champion can sprint 24/7 and no CC works on them, you might as well delete any CC skill creeps have. Hunters shooting from 50m = ridiculous.

5. Remove the Outposts completely, remove the buffs from taking them, or make it have a CD before you can flip it. Creeps can't get to the OPs as fast as freeps do. I used to play well before the outposts rubbish content, so I know it was much better before. Nobody like them.

6. Remove the buffs from DoF (relating to the above) and make some real quests for either side to participate in DoF (anything but buffs).

7. Instances/Skirmish for monsters - solo or small groups. Mainly for commendations to help new comers or simply just to break away from the sad state of PvP and when there is no real action going on.

[Quig]

If you really want balance you can start from the obvious.

1. No Li in the moors - give freeps a basic moors weapon. Creeps don't have anything even remotely equivalent to Li power.

2. No more Horses in the moors - give them maps, and 'March' buff skill.

3. More creep trait slots - this should have been obvious for a very long time now, have no idea how you missed it. (relating to #1) This will help to dissipate some of the supper high hitting skills freeps have. I have seen creeps get blown with 1.5 million dmg and more. Creeps need 4-6 more corruptions, 2 more racial, 2-3 class.

4. Certain classes need a revamp or at least a reduction in the moors, could be easily related to #1 as these skills come mainly from Li - doesn't make sense a Champion can sprint 24/7 and no CC works on them, you might as well delete any CC skill creeps have. Hunters shooting from 50m = ridiculous.

5. Remove the Outposts completely, remove the buffs from taking them, or make it have a CD before you can flip it. Creeps can't get to the OPs as fast as freeps do. I used to play well before the outposts rubbish content, so I know it was much better before. Nobody like them.

6. Remove the buffs from DoF (relating to the above) and make some real quests for either side to participate in DoF (anything but buffs).

7. Instances/Skirmish for monsters - solo or small groups. Mainly for commendations to help new comers or simply just to break away from the sad state of PvP and when there is no real action going on.

This covers some of the issues but creeps need some attention right now cause its almost unplayable in its current form. Waiting for months might draw away players so not sure what an immediate solution could be but AUD and additional slots for corruptions will go a long way to restore some balance. Totally agree LI and non stop sprints for some freep classes and SI not working correctly on creepside needs to be addressed. You cannot play with a grey bar while you watch yourself litterally blow up on your screen.

[Atomos]

Regarding balance: In my opinion there are three inter-related factors that make balance between creeps and freeps difficult to achieve and sustain:

1. The different methods between creeps and freeps of gaining access to PvMP: Freeps pretty much have to be VIP, while creeps just require a one-time purchase. I don't have the data, but IMO this leads to there being overall many more creeps than freeps. If this is true, this means that in addition to the usual population imbalances between sides due to different times of the day, there is also the imbalance of the overall populations of the sides due to different requirements for access to PvMP.

2. The asymmetry between freeps and creeps: This includes things like creeps having maps while freeps have mounts, freeps having trait trees while creeps don't, and freeps having a different system for "gear"/customization (including legendary items).

3. The increases of the level cap: This results in changes in the stat caps, meaning balancing of the stats for the sides must be revised.

Personally, I would rather see larger changes addressing these fundamental issues in balance instead of smaller changes like in the OP that do make PvMP more fun, but the additional fun gained from them will dissipate over time as the balance deteriorates. Larger changes, even if much more time-consuming to implement, would fine in my opinion if there is frequent and consistent communication describing the changes and progress made in implementing them. (I realize this is unlikely to happen, just sharing my thoughts.)

As a "quick"-fix for all three of these issues, I would suggest opening a F2P/Premium only/VIP only Legendary server that is PvMP only and permanently locked at level 50, with freeps having the same or similar "gear"/customization system and quick-travel (maps or mounts) as creeps. I would allow transfers from the other servers of freeps and creeps in order to preserve current ranks and commendations. Personally, I wouldn't even mind starting again from rank 0 and with no commendations, if it was necessary. All freep and creep classes would be available to all the players on this server. Having one such server might cause issues with lots of lag if there is a high population, so if required instead of there being only one such server, there could be more.

7. Instances/Skirmish for monsters - solo or small groups. Mainly for commendations to help new comers or simply just to break away from the sad state of PvP and when there is no real action going on.

I like this idea. It gives something quick to still be able to do on creeps when it is really quite in the rest of PvMP.

[ithinkiamserious]

Most PvPers currently in game have no idea how to play their class to even a base means

I want to reiterate this. This is without a doubt the main problem in pvp atm. I pretty much only play creepside, I do so almost daily, and I'm almost always farming freeps.

The problem lots of creeps are having is that they don't know how to play their class and/or they're grouped with people who don't know how to play their class. These same players can go to freepside (and often do) and would still get themselves farmed by creeps.

When you have healers that don't heal and dps that doesn't follow target assist, your fights are not going to go well. Yet I see players doing this all the time and still complaining that the fight didn't go their way because of class imbalance.

PvP is currently the most balanced it's been in years. And I'm even inclined (at times) to think that creeps are still slightly overtuned. This is because creepside is still dominating nearly everytime on the main RvR nights (Friday and Sunday), normally dominating during RvR times during the day, and the routineness at which the small groups I join are often easily beating other balanced small groups of the same size, as well as groups much larger than our own.

[XPICTO]

I want to reiterate this. This is without a doubt the main problem in pvp atm. I pretty much only play creepside, I do so almost daily, and I'm almost always farming freeps.

The problem lots of creeps are having is that they don't know how to play their class and/or they're grouped with people who don't know how to play their class. These same players can go to freepside (and often do) and would still get themselves farmed by creeps.

When you have healers that don't heal and dps that doesn't follow target assist, your fights are not going to go well. Yet I see players doing this all the time and still complaining that the fight didn't go their way because of class imbalance.

PvP is currently the most balanced it's been in years. And I'm even inclined (at times) to think that creeps are still slightly overtuned. This is because creepside is still dominating nearly everytime on the main RvR nights (Friday and Sunday), normally dominating during RvR times during the day, and the routineness at which the small groups I join are often easily beating other balanced small groups of the same size, as well as groups much larger than our own.

Are we talking about the same game? Clearly not or you are just trolling. Any freep/froup/fraid with PVP t3 gear has no chance of losing vs creep/croup/craid (unless they press random skills). How someone can claim game is balanced with its current state is beyond me.

[Quig]

PvP is currently the most balanced it's been in years. And I'm even inclined (at times) to think that creeps are still slightly overtuned. This is because creepside is still dominating nearly everytime on the main RvR nights (Friday and Sunday), normally dominating during RvR times during the day, and the routineness at which the small groups I join are often easily beating other balanced small groups of the same size, as well as groups much larger than our own.

You are clearly not playing creepside much. This has to be a joke and its a poor one. Creeps have to try kill 1 RK or 1 Champ by at least 12 or more and sometimes thats a 10min chase to hunt down. They are far superior with full PVP gear and skills will implode your creep within 3 hits. You seriously have no idea what you are talking about.

[ithinkiamserious]

Are we talking about the same game? Clearly not or you are just trolling. Any freep/froup/fraid with PVP t3 gear has no chance of losing vs creep/croup/craid (unless they press random skills). How someone can claim game is balanced with its current state is beyond me.

You are clearly not playing creepside much. This has to be a joke and its a poor one. Creeps have to try kill 1 RK or 1 Champ by at least 12 or more and sometimes thats a 10min chase to hunt down. They are far superior with full PVP gear and skills will implode your creep within 3 hits. You seriously have no idea what you are talking about.

I'll say to both of you that I'm talking about LOTRO pvp, which I play almost every day on creepside. The fact that you both think t3 gear is what makes freeps op suggests that you really don't know much about what's going on, and are almost certainly part of the crowd that doesn't understand their classes. However, I'll give you two tips: (1) stop running skirmisher stance on your bas (2) defilers are for healing, not dpsing. This should solve many of the problems that you and your groups are having.

I'd also add that I'd like to see you two try out champ/rk with your full t3 gear while running around solo/small group. Many times I've been in a creep raid during the main RvR times (Fri and Sun) and heard the creeps complaining about how op freeps are, when they'd spent the last hour or two continually wiping the freeps, and then during the rest of the week seen those players on the very freeps classes they'd complained about, only playing them rather uselessly and giving creeps free kills.

As for balance, I've been in arranged fights verses freeps where the freeps even had an additional player (7v6 and all with t3 gear) where we (the creeps) won the majority of the fights. And these fights were against freeps who'd had arranged fighting experience.

If it takes 12 of you and your friends to kill 1 rk or champ then I hope you are all on your defilers and warleaders. If your point is only that champs can get away, then I agree that champs can get away. Did you know that burgs, spiders, and wargs can also get away?

[XPICTO]

I'll say to both of you that I'm talking about LOTRO pvp, which I play almost every day on creepside. The fact that you both think t3 gear is what makes freeps op suggests that you really don't know much about what's going on, and are almost certainly part of the crowd that doesn't understand their classes. However, I'll give you two tips: (1) stop running skirmisher stance on your bas (2) defilers are for healing, not dpsing. This should solve many of the problems that you and your groups are having.

I'd also add that I'd like to see you two try out champ/rk with your full t3 gear while running around solo/small group. Many times I've been in a creep raid during the main RvR times (Fri and Sun) and heard the creeps complaining about how op freeps are, when they'd spent the last hour or two continually wiping the freeps, and then during the rest of the week seen those players on the very freeps classes they'd complained about, only playing them rather uselessly and giving creeps free kills.

As for balance, I've been in arranged fights verses freeps where the freeps even had an additional player (7v6 and all with t3 gear) where we (the creeps) won the majority of the fights. And these fights were against freeps who'd had arranged fighting experience.

If it takes 12 of you and your friends to kill 1 rk or champ then I hope you are all on your defilers and warleaders. If your point is only that champs can get away, then I agree that champs can get away. Did you know that burgs, spiders, and wargs can also get away?

I was hoping you are actually trolling but since this is not the case I will not bother to discuss how creeps are the more OP side.

[Kate00]

I was hoping you are actually trolling but since this is not the case I will not bother to discuss how creeps are the more OP side.

oh hes trolling alright, notice he said hes having 'arranged' fights. shame he and spilo are derailing a dev thread.

[ithinkiamserious]

oh hes trolling alright, notice he said hes having 'arranged' fights. shame he and spilo are derailing a dev thread.

I rarely have arranged fights. I only mentioned that to provide an example of a fight where creeps were outnumbered against freeps with t3 gear and we won.

It's a shame you didn't make that obvious connection and made a useless post to derail this thread.

[Kate00]

I rarely have arranged fights. I only mentioned that to provide an example of a fight where creeps were outnumbered against freeps with t3 gear and we won.

It's a shame you didn't make that obvious connection and made a useless post to derail this thread.

I dont remember replying to you. the majority of players in this thread are asking for balance and giving suggestions on how to accomplish that. welcome back vocal minority.

[Spilo]

oh hes trolling alright, notice he said hes having 'arranged' fights. shame he and spilo are derailing a dev thread.

[Dranak123]

oh hes trolling alright, notice he said hes having 'arranged' fights. shame he and spilo are derailing a dev thread.

Firstly apologies Kate00 i clicked your message because it was recent and short...no other reason.
But the two points i would make are that 1. when it comes to PVP balance few people are talking about the percieved 'correct' group/raid class make up and trait/line selection of members and how this creates optimal or suboptimal performance for either side.
This leads me to 2. which is that most players are presumably here for recreational enjoyment. To me that means that 'slightly suboptimal but having fun' is better than 'optimal but not really enjoying it'.
To me this goes to the core of the PVP ethos which is ' you can turn up and group up with people who will ultimately become online gaming colleagues and even freinds , have fun , without some diehard raiderboss demanding specific class quotas/traitlines/gearing/playstyle and DPS counting....and then laugh and empathise with your colleagues triumphs and challenges ingame and inreal-life' .
I do believe that the balance has to be as good as it can be , but its not the be-all and end-all of this game.

[Zyot]

Imo here are a few things that I would like to see adjusted:

-get rid of LIs on Moors and instead provide an option to obtain normal weapons. i.e buy them with commendations. Like this freeps won't get boosted every time you increase level cap on LI.
-provide like for like skills for creep side i.e cleanse/stealth reset(as burg has)/ something similar to champion's duel/sprint for reaver maybe? and so on....
-add extra trait slots for creeps considering freep side has 98 points going really deep into second line. Upgrade corruptions so all become viable
-and the main issue of this game...as long the lag won't be fixed pretty much every new player won't stick to the game.

[Brolad]

First of all please allow a quick moment of silence for the guy a couple posts above who got ensnared by the quote button and had to make a forum post to escape with his life.

Second of all:

Creeps have to try kill 1 RK or 1 Champ by at least 12 or more and sometimes thats a 10min chase to hunt down.

PvP is currently the most balanced it's been in years.

Ever considered that you are both ridiculously wrong? Champ can easily 1v2 in a lot of class matchups but 1v12 is laughable. At the same time the balance atm is horrible. Mindboggling idea, I know.

[Quig]

First of all please allow a quick moment of silence for the guy a couple posts above who got ensnared by the quote button and had to make a forum post to escape with his life.

Second of all:


Ever considered that you are both ridiculously wrong? Champ can easily 1v2 in a lot of class matchups but 1v12 is laughable. At the same time the balance atm is horrible. Mindboggling idea, I know.

Did you ever consider you don't speak for me or the majority of this community. You derailed this thread to suit yourself. You can sprout whatever logic you believe to be valid but the simple fact is that there is a great imbalance in the game. If you don't want to see or believe these facts then that is your choice. We are here to build a better PVMP not argue about a perception that you have when it is not shared by the wider community. This is why PVMP is in the state its currently in.

Maybe you are the only person here who can play this game so perfectly that we just need to believe you without using our own game experience to form an opinion.

[JonXu]

1 idea more
why not make Pvmp like epic battles. everything scales to LVL 100. balancing around one certain lvl seems an easier task.

[ithinkiamserious]

Ever considered that you are both ridiculously wrong? Champ can easily 1v2 in a lot of class matchups but 1v12 is laughable. At the same time the balance atm is horrible. Mindboggling idea, I know.

A champ being able to 1v2 wouldn't prove my statement wrong. When was the last update when a fotm dps couldn't 1v2(or more)?

But to the point about this update, no champ can 1v2 against two good players. If your point is that a champ can 1v2 against bad players, then I agree, but so can creeps because I have (as I'm sure many creeps have). However, one big difference is that in previous updates the fotm dps could win 1v2 against good players in certain class setups.

Furthermore, champ isn't op in a way that guarantees victory simply by playing the class. A whole lot of champs can't even win there 1v1s against creep dps classes. If you play ba and you're good, you'll probably have won many of your fights vs champs. Whereas in previous updates even a bad player could routinely win on a fotm dpser (ex: ba using snares + barrage+evade easily won many fights with a full bar).

[BimBamBom]

I already mentioned creeps require more trait slots but I considered it further and realized the entire trait mechanics need an overall revamp.
Some traits are good, some are decent, some are obsolete. Several class/race traits are a complete rubbish and don't contribute anything, some corruptions are a complete garbage and the bonus of slotting 6 of them is ridiculous (especially the +power bonuses). If creeps won't get more slots, at the very least revamp the existing one to scale appropriately.

Several SKILLS are obsolete on different classes, especially the ones regarding 'power'. I clearly noticed several skills on my R12 Black-arrow are a complete garbage now, so I no longer play this class. Same with my R7 Reaver, a class I used to love playing charging into groups of freeps swinging or going 1vs1, now reduced to a joke.

Several skills across the board have a very long animation and do not execute properly despite having Zero induction.

How to reduce LAG:

1. Revamp LM and RK skills visuals. I don't care at all about the dmg just the bloody hell visuals causing huge lag spikes. I should mention I disable all SFX including bloom/lightening/shadows..., but it doesn't help. RK stones produce lag spikes near them, some RK skill causing an atmospheric effects (despite disabled) with huge lag spikes - looks like a snow storm or something (I don't know what it is called I never played a RK).

2. Lagging near Keeps - I assume it is due to a vast count of players and NPC. I suggest to remove a vast majority of the NPCs and replace them with a smaller count of stronger NPCs. Example - instead of 30 orcs - 10 strong trolls.

Another issue - Commendations
Simply not enough going around, the quests contribute very little, I get more from killing freeps. I would rather see the commendations/infamy ratio from quests reversed, meaning more commendations- less infamy. I already mentioned creeps deserve Instances/skirmish for commendations, an idea many support. Some players simply want to play a creep in PvE content.

[Fukamachi]

Despite the lag and inbalance between some classes, it would be great to see some PvE events in PvPvM. Events where free people and monsters will fight, in some zones, for some bosses, collecting some things in mobs area and etc.

[Oldwiley]

Let’s Discuss Monster Play


Healing Modifiers

Healing prolongs battles and undermines the competitive nature of fights. There is no silver bullet in “fixing” this. My intent would be applying an Ettenmoors only effect that reduces the incoming healing to drive combats to a swifter conclusion. Dynamic implementation allows us to modify this effect without waiting for a patch to make the change.

Should this prove successful, we will look at how this style of effect modifier can address other imbalances we know exist in the moment-to-moment experiences.

It only took 10 years.....

Extract from one of several threads about "what will happen when audacity comes in with no changes to healing" and why no global healing debuff.....

The debuff required for slowing down combat in pvp (badly needed) does not have to be dependent on gear or traits.

The new system has not adjusted healing which is about to become the most overpowered skill in the history of lotro. Freeps will be facing tougher opponents with more healing. Creeps (without burst dps) will be facing burst healing with a significant reduction in dps. Imgine now if pre-audacity you had 30 to 50% less dps but had to cope with the same healing

But its ok I think not many healing classes left under rank 12 now, so they won't be too miffed