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  1. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Tardion View Post



    As you can see in this picture it is not only character bound essences that bind equipment to a character. An account bound essence does the same. The effect can´t be reverted by unslotting the essence. How can it be that a bug that existed a few month ago is now reintroduced to the game?
    And who thought it would be a good idea to make essences bind equip to a character anyway after it being not that way for most of the time with the exception of the golden essences from some festivals? It makes playing multiple characters even more of a grind.
    When we fixed the previous bug, it introduced a new issue where using BtC essences didn't properly update binding of the gear as indicated. We fixed that for 32, but that introduced another bug where BtA essences where erroneously binding BtA gear to BtC. We're currently fixing that bug, and with any luck, it'll be fixed before the next Bullroarer.

  2. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Harvain View Post
    Just to be blunt about the Reward Track as it currently looks regardless of where it might be Design-wise for it's possible Update 32 Launch: It currently is Pathetic.

    Looks pathetic and feels like no really work has been done. Really, after 3 Public Delays for the Reward Track where has the main amount of work been done? And yes, I know work has been done but it doesn't SHOW.

    And if it hadn't been Delayed 3 times on a Scale of 1 to 10 & 10 being a Complete System, it honestly seems like it would have been a 1 for how much Work had been done & close to SSG's Idea of it being a Complete System.

    UI Design should be something that has an initial focus that is just as important as all the Technical Designs of any System.

    First impressions are everything.



    SSG has already admitted with this Bullroarer Test that it'll take time for the Reward Track to improve anyway, so why bother putting it in as is which will give the impression of a Not Ready & Rushed System?

    Take that time it's going to need anyway and get to a far better State and really just aim for a Complete State for being a System.

    Otherwise what time frame are we looking at for the Reward Track to be fully fleshed out for SSG current Gameplan and goal to see it at for a Post-Update 32 Reward Track going Live with no Issues occurring to delay it?

    6 Months? 1 Year? Longer?
    I wanna push back on this idea that you can release a "Complete System" ever - there's no such thing, and you should be extremely skeptical of anyone who goes around saying they're going to launch a complete system. The reality is all development, but especially development on a live product, like LOTRO, is iterative. We're always learning from feedback and adjusting things, creating new things, etc. No live product is ever completed, and no new additions to it are ever "complete" in any sense of that term.

    Our specific goal here with releasing the Reward Track in Bullroarer is to gather feedback so we can better shape development. It wasn't that long ago that you and others were saying that we should be using the community more to solicit this exact feedback, and we've been doing it with Bullroarers for 32 for almost a month, and we have more Bullroarers to come. And even once it releases, we know there will be more feedback to take in and learn from for future iterations.

    LOTRO is never complete, and it never will be complete. There's always more cool stuff to add

  3. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Raninia View Post
    I wanna push back on this idea that you can release a "Complete System" ever - there's no such thing, and you should be extremely skeptical of anyone who goes around saying they're going to launch a complete system. The reality is all development, but especially development on a live product, like LOTRO, is iterative. We're always learning from feedback and adjusting things, creating new things, etc. No live product is ever completed, and no new additions to it are ever "complete" in any sense of that term.

    Our specific goal here with releasing the Reward Track in Bullroarer is to gather feedback so we can better shape development. It wasn't that long ago that you and others were saying that we should be using the community more to solicit this exact feedback, and we've been doing it with Bullroarers for 32 for almost a month, and we have more Bullroarers to come. And even once it releases, we know there will be more feedback to take in and learn from for future iterations.

    LOTRO is never complete, and it never will be complete. There's always more cool stuff to add
    There's degrees of iterative though, right? You could push a car onto a sales floor without doors and say it's done, just the release is iterative. To be fair, I logged into BR to take a look at the reward track, couldn't make heads or tails of it, there was no explanation to it, I tried to do something with my old LI runes and I couldn't and the impression I got from the whole affair was that this a) wasn't ready and b) wasn't any different than hobbit presents. I logged out.

    If this thing is in a state ready for release, it sure doesn't look like it. And you've got to start explaining things in game, man. Quests that walk the user through what these features do. Tool tips with text that explain how they work and how you use them. In game mails that tell us of the new system's arrival. And then at launch or even in beta, dev diaries that we can reference back to that will take us through all the features and nuances of the new system.
    Phrasing! Doesn't anybody do phrasing anymore?

  4. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raninia View Post
    I wanna push back on this idea that you can release a "Complete System" ever - there's no such thing, and you should be extremely skeptical of anyone who goes around saying they're going to launch a complete system. The reality is all development, but especially development on a live product, like LOTRO, is iterative. We're always learning from feedback and adjusting things, creating new things, etc. No live product is ever completed, and no new additions to it are ever "complete" in any sense of that term.
    Certainly, but it kinda feels like you're creating and extending a system that isn't fun purely because we had a bad system before and you had to get rid of that.

    A ton of dev time is being poured into this and the result is just a long RNG grind to slightly modify skills that winds up being fairly alt-unfriendly because there's no catch-up mechanics (and progress on the track is account-wide so all your alts combined barely produce enough materials to kit out your main in one role). The system itself is probably a net negative in regards to game balance, some classes gain a lot from the LI's, some gain very little, and it works out to be a massive powerspike in early game rendering most of the early content even more trivial than it already was. Traceries also don't really do anything new to enhance your characters, it just makes skill scaling a bit wonky as some skills get buffed a ton via traceries whilst others get absolutely nothing. It may be a bit of a buzzword but the system genuinely lacks meaningful choice, you're not really choosing between gameplay styles when you pick your traceries you're choosing between more or less power; someone with all the "wrong" traceries for a spec is still going to be doing more or less the same rotation, they'll just be less effective with it. The system itself is fiddly, the UX isn't great at there's the weird choice to keep LI's as two separate equippable objects despite the conflict this results in with unique traceries blocking one another. It's unnecessarily confusing for people with the multiple different tracery types, rarities, upgrade items, IXP awards, and so many slots for things. It's a mess.

    One of LOTRO's biggest problems is that it just doesn't know when to give up on stuff and trim it away for a more coherent system. Each time you revamp the LI system you make it bigger and messier and honestly I think we'd prefer to just have regular weapons back at this point.
    Last edited by Joedangod; Jan 28 2022 at 10:33 AM.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  5. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Raninia View Post
    I wanna push back on this idea that you can release a "Complete System" ever - there's no such thing, and you should be extremely skeptical of anyone who goes around saying they're going to launch a complete system. The reality is all development, but especially development on a live product, like LOTRO, is iterative. We're always learning from feedback and adjusting things, creating new things, etc. No live product is ever completed, and no new additions to it are ever "complete" in any sense of that term.

    Our specific goal here with releasing the Reward Track in Bullroarer is to gather feedback so we can better shape development. It wasn't that long ago that you and others were saying that we should be using the community more to solicit this exact feedback, and we've been doing it with Bullroarers for 32 for almost a month, and we have more Bullroarers to come. And even once it releases, we know there will be more feedback to take in and learn from for future iterations.

    LOTRO is never complete, and it never will be complete. There's always more cool stuff to add

    You're 100% right. Development is never done and an Agile release process is what you should be following.

    The problem is, we don't see things being iterated on despite you telling us that this is just the first pass for something. Has the new LI system been improved since you released it? The UI still looks the same. Sure, you've added a few items here and there that can be deconstructed into AS. But fundamentally, it's the same system you originally released. Now sure, we can go with the idea that the reward track is related to the feedback on the new LI system. But other things where we've asked for improvement on haven't seen any change.

    We don't need more cool stuff added at the moment. We need improvements to what we already have. So pulling out this spiel about that no one ever releases a complete system and development for LOTRO is iterative is just something convenient for you to say. We've been through this song and dance with Cord, Sev and Sapience. So show us that things are going to change.

  6. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raninia View Post
    When we fixed the previous bug, it introduced a new issue where using BtC essences didn't properly update binding of the gear as indicated. We fixed that for 32, but that introduced another bug where BtA essences where erroneously binding BtA gear to BtC. We're currently fixing that bug, and with any luck, it'll be fixed before the next Bullroarer.

    Would it not be an option to make all essences BtA rather than having some BtC and some BtA? It would be a better experience for players as it gives more options for alting without worrying about binding certain pieces to only one character. This may also help your developers, as following a unified rule leaves little room for mistakes or ambiguity in coding new essences.

  7. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Raninia View Post
    LOTRO is never complete, and it never will be complete. There's always more cool stuff to add
    There's your problem. Please fix the numerous issues with the old cool stuff that has been added before adding more half-finished new cool stuff.

  8. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Rimurin View Post
    Would it not be an option to make all essences BtA rather than having some BtC and some BtA? It would be a better experience for players as it gives more options for alting without worrying about binding certain pieces to only one character. This may also help your developers, as following a unified rule leaves little room for mistakes or ambiguity in coding new essences.
    It seems strange that almost all the gear you get in Gundabad is BtA, but some essences, from the same source as the gear, are BtC and also make the gear BtC.
    So just do as Rimurin suggested and get rid of BtC essences and you will make many players with multiple characters very happy.

  9. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    honestly I think we'd prefer to just have regular weapons back at this point.
    Absolutely! Having no Lis would make balancing so much better and easier as well. And if you want to keep the grind and LI powers - make it another virtue like system: a list of powers with ranks, number of slots to equip powers of your choice and so on.

  10. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by tanlis View Post
    You're 100% right. Development is never done and an Agile release process is what you should be following.
    That's not following Agile project management. Agile means that you have a stated end result, and you release in waves to get there. The key is the end result is defined and you have defined releases building to that end result. The misconception version of the process allows you to simply release things incompletely confident in the knowledge that you will continually improve it. The trap being that other priorities get in the way and then you don't complete the iterative cycle through to the projected final scope and it's left in an incomplete but semi-functioning state.
    Phrasing! Doesn't anybody do phrasing anymore?

  11. #186
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    Are boxes for heraldry, word of power, and word of craft going to be added at any point? Currently the only traceries rewarded are word of mastery. (And I will add my voice to the many others saying these should allow you to choose)

  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raninia View Post
    When we fixed the previous bug, it introduced a new issue where using BtC essences didn't properly update binding of the gear as indicated. We fixed that for 32, but that introduced another bug where BtA essences where erroneously binding BtA gear to BtC. We're currently fixing that bug, and with any luck, it'll be fixed before the next Bullroarer.
    Specificially which essences are intended to be bind to character? At the moment rarer essences boxes from T2+ instances give bind to character essences. Is it intended that only the crafted essences will enable bind to account gear? I know someone who currently plays 4 level cap loremasters and relies on gear being account shared.

    Edit:

    The question is not should bind to character essences bind gear to character. The question is what essences are supposed to be bind to character in the first place.

    What will happen to gear that currently has one of those essences in it? Will it suddenly bind to the character its on?
    Crell-L85-Champion - Riddermark ; Swego-L85-Burglar ; Kotvi-L95-Runekeeper
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  13. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    Specificially which essences are intended to be bind to character? At the moment rarer essences boxes from T2+ instances give bind to character essences. Is it intended that only the crafted essences will enable bind to account gear? I know someone who currently plays 4 level cap loremasters and relies on gear being account shared.

    Edit:

    The question is not should bind to character essences bind gear to character. The question is what essences are supposed to be bind to character in the first place.

    What will happen to gear that currently has one of those essences in it? Will it suddenly bind to the character its on?
    Current situation on BR is this:

    • Essences from lootboxes that are either crafted or bartered are BtA
    • Essences from lootboxes that dropped are BtC
    • Items that use essences from previously obtained lootboxes from drops are still BtA (i.e. they did not convert)


    This is of course WIP so I cannot tell you what the final result will look like once this patch hits LIVE...

  14. #189
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  15. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raninia View Post
    I wanna push back on this idea that you can release a "Complete System" ever - there's no such thing, and you should be extremely skeptical of anyone who goes around saying they're going to launch a complete system. The reality is all development, but especially development on a live product, like LOTRO, is iterative. We're always learning from feedback and adjusting things, creating new things, etc. No live product is ever completed, and no new additions to it are ever "complete" in any sense of that term.

    Our specific goal here with releasing the Reward Track in Bullroarer is to gather feedback so we can better shape development. It wasn't that long ago that you and others were saying that we should be using the community more to solicit this exact feedback, and we've been doing it with Bullroarers for 32 for almost a month, and we have more Bullroarers to come. And even once it releases, we know there will be more feedback to take in and learn from for future iterations.

    LOTRO is never complete, and it never will be complete. There's always more cool stuff to add
    Yeah, I think anyone who knows enough about the Video Game Industry understands or has to come to understand that any Live Service that keeps receiving Updates to either add New Content and/or Fixes, etc never stops growing & never is in a "Complete State" for anything. Only when said Live Service declares it no longer is getting Updates is it "Complete".

    Mostly its coming down to lets just say the Reward Track had 10 Elements to it for being fully ready to go for the initial idea for the "This is where we want it to be" ahead of adding onto it, the First Reward Track Reset, how it'll grow in 2022, 2023 & beyond, so on and so on. SSG has admitted it won't have X amount of those Elements ready anytime soon and no real time table for when those initial elements that were targeted for the Reward Track System to be ready.



    Basically to me this is the New Legendary Item System type release all over again where the "bare minimum" is working, SSG will take X amount of time to eventually get their initial ideas for this System in and the Community is just going to have to soldier on for an unknown & likely large amount of time for such.

    On a Scale of 1 to 10 for this System seeming to be ready regardless of what is added between now & Update 32, this feels like a 4. Lets get that up to a 7 or 8 for the initial first Launch of the Reward Track. With having all the initial SSG ideas for the System being all in & working would be a *chef's kiss* but highly unlikely. Folks such as myself want to see SSG improve when it comes to receiving & considering Feedback is what is seen here with Bullroarer Tests and if Feedback is showing pretty easily that something should take longer if not outright Delayed it would be nice to start seeing such Decisions occurring here in 2022 & beyond.

    Regardless of any Decision on anything SSG brings to the table there will always be Negative Comments & Sentiments but those are only enhanced when time & again we see Unready & Unfinished Products being brought down the Development Pipeline & pushed into the Live Game. Initial Impressions are everything.



    Here are 3 Youtube Videos about the Reward Track for it's first Public Appearance from Andang, Bludborn & Ghynghyn. With Andang & Bludborn talking & giving their opinions about the Reward Track, UI, Slider Bar and all the elements known about it and Ghynghyn basically just showing it off, giving the known current Data on it, etc:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfsc6XgpDdM - Andang's Reward Track Video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ef8SNswu1U&t=1s - Bludborn's Reward Track Video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgULC-3vbNY - Ghynghyn's Reward Track Video.

    One key element that folks in the Comment Sections all have is: Move away from the RNG given Traceries. This is Feedback that is also on the LOTRO Forums & seen plenty in-game since the New Legendary Item System Launched. Let folks choose what they are getting, it's far more Rewarding & engaging to feel like you WILL get what you are aiming for than HOPING you'll get what you need. This change alone would go a long way to improving the New Legendary Item System.

    Another Element about the Reward Track's first appearance is that the UI for the Reward Track & Slider Bar especially aren't looking good.

    The XP Bar for the Reward Track per Reward has no Numbers and you have stated: "This is intentional. We'll see how this plays out in the first season, and decide on the future from there." and folks want to know what they are dealing with, how much it'll take and what Rewards they will receive. SSG are calling it a "Reward Track" not a "Mystery Track".

    - Here I personally know the Reward Track's initial launch is about trying to get Players to use up as many if not all their Item Experience Runes between now & a possible May 2022 Reward Track Reset and with the goal of having what Sources for them being more Limited & possibly could down the line see the IXP Runes removed fully.

    - As you have stated about IXP Runes: "We'll be removing the heritage rune grants from Gundabad quests with this update, and we'll be thinking about more broadly reducing the number of runes and their correlated drops throughout the game, but there's a lot of sources of them in almost fourteen years, so it'll take some time to find all of the ones we want to change."

    - Which to me is perfectly fine, I have no issues with dealing with IXP Runes and folks will be overjoyed to finally get rid of likely all they have been hoarding especially in 2021 & so far in 2022. This removes a lot of Items that don't need to be "hoarded", helps open Inventory Space and likely will see a Data Footprint here in 2022 for IXP Runes become far less.

    And much more could be said but Feedback has been rolling in for months about the New Legendary Item System and the Reward Track especially this week. This would be a key moment to take a "You guys are right, it's not as ready as it could be, we are going to delay it further, keep bringing it to more Bullroarers and really flesh it out". It doesn't have to be fully in a "Complete State" akin to SSG's initial vision of the Reward Track but it can & should be far closer to such than it is now & likely will be in February.

  16. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harvain View Post
    Here are 3 Youtube Videos about the Reward Track for it's first Public Appearance from Andang, Bludborn & Ghynghyn. With Andang & Bludborn talking & giving their opinions about the Reward Track, UI, Slider Bar and all the elements known about it and Ghynghyn basically just showing it off, giving the known current Data on it, etc:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfsc6XgpDdM - Andang's Reward Track Video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ef8SNswu1U&t=1s - Bludborn's Reward Track Video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgULC-3vbNY - Ghynghyn's Reward Track Video.
    To add onto this Louey7 also posted their Reward Track Video, talking about it, unboxing the Rewards and First Impressions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo8ibN9d9Ic

  17. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sk0field View Post
    Current situation on BR is this:

    • Essences from lootboxes that are either crafted or bartered are BtA
    • Essences from lootboxes that dropped are BtC
    • Items that use essences from previously obtained lootboxes from drops are still BtA (i.e. they did not convert)


    This is of course WIP so I cannot tell you what the final result will look like once this patch hits LIVE...
    I'm looking for the intent, not the current state.

    Additionally. Runekeepers need access to a better rez for the raid. Putting the +48% rez option from the old LIs back into a tracery would work, another option is to make that part of the passives when traited blue.
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  18. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotroede View Post
    NO please do not change this because missions will become much longer and difficult for low level characters with basic stuff.
    Thank you
    Come on... those 10 sec inductions are ridiculous. "Oh no, I've lost half my morale, so I will start this INCREDIBLE ATTACK that will... well, honestly, it will just make me dead, because I'm going to stand motionless for 10 seconds while you kill me." Even if I stand there and let them finish their induction, it puts some piddling DOT on me that I can just pot or use a cure skill on. Or ignore.

  19. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Vilan View Post
    Come on... those 10 sec inductions are ridiculous. "Oh no, I've lost half my morale, so I will start this INCREDIBLE ATTACK that will... well, honestly, it will just make me dead, because I'm going to stand motionless for 10 seconds while you kill me." Even if I stand there and let them finish their induction, it puts some piddling DOT on me that I can just pot or use a cure skill on. Or ignore.
    You want missions to be challenging?
    Phrasing! Doesn't anybody do phrasing anymore?

  20. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raninia View Post
    When we fixed the previous bug, it introduced a new issue where using BtC essences didn't properly update binding of the gear as indicated. We fixed that for 32, but that introduced another bug where BtA essences where erroneously binding BtA gear to BtC. We're currently fixing that bug, and with any luck, it'll be fixed before the next Bullroarer.
    You say you fixed a "BtC essences didn't properly update binding of the gear", but you're not saying what it will mean for the players, who uses such essences and now using items with that kind of essences across different characters?
    If you just put that bugfix online with U32 and players get each and every item with one of those essences bound to a random character ... you would need to move SSG to the Antarctic to hid it from the s**-storm.
    After the essence is slotted, no one can see what type it was.

    You already created a lot of confusion with the essences: crafted, changed for ash, get it from a quest, get it as a drop in instances, get it with higher item level as a drop in an instance. Do you know - without asking someone at SSG! - which one of them is BtC and which one is BtA?
    And not to forget, how SSG handle translations. There are countless´examples of wrong because misleading transformation. That will create a LOT of frustrated players.

    May I Ask you, what is the reason that you don't do just Bind to Account essences?

    You know very well, that this many essence sources with different bindings are confusing for the players.
    I really hope, that this is not just another Idea from you, how to get players to buy mithril coins for essence removal.

  21. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowlock View Post
    You want missions to be challenging?
    5 sec inductions won't make them challenging, just less "meme-worthy" to quote another poster.

  22. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    I'm looking for the intent, not the current state.
    Allow me to rephrase:

    The intent, reflected by the current situation on BR, is this:



    • Essences from lootboxes that are either crafted or bartered are BtA
    • Essences from lootboxes that dropped are BtC
    • Items that use essences from previously obtained lootboxes from drops are still BtA (i.e. they did not convert)



    Better?

  23. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowlock View Post
    If this thing is in a state ready for release, it sure doesn't look like it. And you've got to start explaining things in game, man. Quests that walk the user through what these features do. Tool tips with text that explain how they work and how you use them. In game mails that tell us of the new system's arrival. And then at launch or even in beta, dev diaries that we can reference back to that will take us through all the features and nuances of the new system.
    I wholeheartedly agree.
    There's some good in this world, and it is worth fighting for.

  24. #199

    Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Raninia View Post
    I wanna push back on this idea that you can release a "Complete System" ever - there's no such thing, and you should be extremely skeptical of anyone who goes around saying they're going to launch a complete system. The reality is all development, but especially development on a live product, like LOTRO, is iterative. We're always learning from feedback and adjusting things, creating new things, etc. No live product is ever completed, and no new additions to it are ever "complete" in any sense of that term.
    I will just comment on this one, as it this my job too to deliver working software. When you decide to refactor/reingeneer a working (no matter how badly) and full featured system, you have to replace it with another working and (at least almost) full featured system. Any failure to do so will result in a terrible backlash from your customers. Even if you deliver the first version of the new system without all the features of the previous one (which is ok, can happen), you should flesh out all the missing features in a reasonable amount of time, a month let's say, a couple sprints.

    The previous system:
    * was badly engineered (roughly summarizing the infamous leak post from palantir)
    * resulted in performance problems (again palantir)
    * was working from a player's point of view, had soe, crystals, runes, relics, all that is needed to build the weapon
    * the materials were available to every playstyle, from solo to hard core raiding

    The new system:
    * has been in place since october, so almost four months
    * has still not replaced the old system
    * has no clear in game tutorial, no in depth explanation on the official web site, players must look for non official sources to understand how it works (not just how to maximize the functionalities in the current meta)
    * has RNG placed all around to increase grinding (citing alts is a poor excuse given how much alt-unfriendly the game has become)
    * materials are no more available to all play styles, i.e. gold traceries available as RNG only from T2+ instances, raids (yes I know there are a couple of landscape drops)
    * has still no reward track on live, the RT on BR is well let's try to be polite here, is unfinished and very very stingy

    This is your problem. A fully working, grindy system was replaced with an unfinished system, and even more grindy (if one wants to get teal traceries at least). It doesnt matter if it's better engineered from a dev's point of view, you have to sell it to customers, not to engineers who can appreciate the better execution.

    Let's repeat this: YOU have to sell it, it's not your customers that have to buy it. YOU have to sell it to customers, not the opposite. Even if many of your customers are LOTR (not LOTRo) addicts who keep playing only because this is the only MMORPG about LOTR and they are absolutely scared of the game shutdown, so they keep fuel money in.

    A final note, agile is about delivering working software, it's the only true aim of the metodology, check the agile manifesto. It's about delivering working software in an iterative fashion, working pieces that blend one after one in a whole functioning piece of software, it's about collecting feedback from your customers and changing plans according to feedback.

    Again, working pieces, not beta software, not ever unfinished systems, not bug plagued products (gundabad at release, took a month to fix the major bugs, not even most of the minors).

    It's about learning from feedback, not ignoring it as you do most of the times.

  25. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Vilan View Post
    5 sec inductions won't make them challenging, just less "meme-worthy" to quote another poster.
    No idea what meme worthy means. What are you hoping a reduction in inductions to 5 seconds will accomplish?
    Phrasing! Doesn't anybody do phrasing anymore?

 

 
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