Nerf champion utility & selfheals

[Joedangod]

Not going to address all your points but if you read up I did suggest a nerf for yellow champs, move deep strikes into the red capstone so yellow can't access. That will balance red and yellow a bit better and is really the extent of changes that champs need right now.

It's not.

Balance is not as simple as "OMG CHAMPS HAVE TOO MUCH UTILITY NERF THEM!!". Not saying that's your tone, but it's the tone of this thread. You might view hunters required to be stationary as a weakness, I think it makes playing a hunter significantly easier because regardless of how the tank positions the boss or has to move around you can stand still and DPS as if it were a training dummy (assuming there are no mechanics requiring everyone to fully reposition).

...you still want to ensure positional whenever possible and since items like Cappy Banner of War has limited range you generally have similar position to the melee DPS anyway. Hunters don't sit at 40m y'know.

Everything else that a few of you guys are posting about champ abilities is either taken out of context or blown out of proportion.

It's not so black and white, and people crying about champs without fully painting an accurate picture of the situation could result in precious dev resources being diverted from actually important things to screwing up a class that is not in need of fixing.

Ok, if we're not painting an accurate picture of the situation feel free to contest any of the following points with examples of other classes being superior to the champ in the given area:

• Champion DPS has some of, if not the least, ramp up time required.
• Champion has by far the highest immunity to slows of any class in the game.
• Champion has some of the strongest utility of all melee specs (challenge/AoE stuns/Duel).
• Champion has some of the strongest self-healing of all DPS specs (Bracing Attack, Fight On, access to Dire Need if required, Killing Spree/Blade of Courage).

[Strider5548]

It

• Champion DPS has some of, if not the least, ramp up time required.
• Champion has by far the highest immunity to slows of any class in the game.
• Champion has some of the strongest utility of all melee specs (challenge/AoE stuns/Duel).
• Champion has some of the strongest self-healing of all DPS specs (Bracing Attack, Fight On, access to Dire Need if required, Killing Spree/Blade of Courage).

1) Yes, same with hunters. Hunters are burst ranged DPS and champs are burst melee DPS. This is not an issue, it's how the class is designed.
2) Champs have 25 seconds of slow immunity every 2 minutes, the comments here make it sound like every champ is running a PvP build traited deep in red with a tracery to boost sprint. Champs are still susceptible to roots, stuns, mezzes, and any other form of CC when sprint is up. Also, champs are the only DPS class with no ranged attacks. They don't have javelins, bow skills (let fly doesn't count), they can't cast spells, so it makes sense to give them the ability to break out of a slow periodically to prevent them from being vegetables.
3) Champions' Duel is red line only and the way it ramps up over time makes it a very useful skill but nothing game breaking. There's nothing OP about Champion's challenge, it's designed to provide the raid a way for champs to swap aggro for a very short amount of time. It makes the class more versatile. Yes there is a 5 second 30% damage reduction, but that also makes sense to prevent the champ from getting one shot. AoE stuns are one of the most signature champ skills and should not be touched. Every DPS class (except Wardens) has the ability to AoE stun, champs can just do it more often by cashing out all their fervour. The crafted horns were OP, but their duration was recently nerfed by 50%, so they are fine at 5 seconds.
4) Again, you are assuming every champ is specced deep into blue for Dire Need, deep into red for killing spree, deep into yellow for blade of courage, AND has traceries to improve self healing skills slotted. Bracing attack is perfectly fine, I would equate it to press onward. Fight on is perfectly fine, it's similar to blood arrow. Dire need could be moved deeper into blue and made tank line only. Killing spree is completely fine, it's used primarily for landscape content and requires you to trait deep into red to access it.

Summary again:

-Everyone seems to be listing out a bunch of skills that are rarely (if even possible) to acquire together and crying about champs being OP. This is the equivalent of saying any class with unlimited tracery slots and the ability to trait all 3 lines at once is OP so SSG needs to nerf them.
-We have too many trait points at the current level cap, and non-blue champs shouldn't have access to dire need and non-red champs shouldn't have access to deep strikes. You fix these two things and everything else is perfectly fine.

[gaara908776]

1) Yes, same with hunters. Hunters are burst ranged DPS and champs are burst melee DPS. This is not an issue, it's how the class is designed.
2) Champs have 25 seconds of slow immunity every 2 minutes, the comments here make it sound like every champ is running a PvP build traited deep in red with a tracery to boost sprint. Champs are still susceptible to roots, stuns, mezzes, and any other form of CC when sprint is up. Also, champs are the only DPS class with no ranged attacks. They don't have javelins, bow skills (let fly doesn't count), they can't cast spells, so it makes sense to give them the ability to break out of a slow periodically to prevent them from being vegetables.
3) Champions' Duel is red line only and the way it ramps up over time makes it a very useful skill but nothing game breaking. There's nothing OP about Champion's challenge, it's designed to provide the raid a way for champs to swap aggro for a very short amount of time. It makes the class more versatile. Yes there is a 5 second 30% damage reduction, but that also makes sense to prevent the champ from getting one shot. AoE stuns are one of the most signature champ skills and should not be touched. Every DPS class (except Wardens) has the ability to AoE stun, champs can just do it more often by cashing out all their fervour. The crafted horns were OP, but their duration was recently nerfed by 50%, so they are fine at 5 seconds.
4) Again, you are assuming every champ is specced deep into blue for Dire Need, deep into red for killing spree, deep into yellow for blade of courage, AND has traceries to improve self healing skills slotted. Bracing attack is perfectly fine, I would equate it to press onward. Fight on is perfectly fine, it's similar to blood arrow. Dire need could be moved deeper into blue and made tank line only. Killing spree is completely fine, it's used primarily for landscape content and requires you to trait deep into red to access it.

Summary again:

-Everyone seems to be listing out a bunch of skills that are rarely (if even possible) to acquire together and crying about champs being OP. This is the equivalent of saying any class with unlimited tracery slots and the ability to trait all 3 lines at once is OP so SSG needs to nerf them.
-We have too many trait points at the current level cap, and non-blue champs shouldn't have access to dire need and non-red champs shouldn't have access to deep strikes. You fix these two things and everything else is perfectly fine.

In PVMP, you do end up traiting/slotting most of the traits and traceries listed in this thread as “OP”. In PVE you trait/slot none of them. If you’re playing Yellow line and using all the DPS traits/traceries, even with 98 trait points, you wouldn’t trait sprint or slot the tracery for it. Same goes for bracing attack heal.

SSG has made it clear for years that PVE balance takes precedence over PVMP balance. The only problem with Champ in PVE balance right now is that Yellow line is better for single target and AoE than red line.

In a well set-up group, Hunter should be outparsing a Champ in single target, RK can perform on par, and so can Warden. The only classes really falling behind on DPS in group content are Burg/Beorn/Brawler. Those three have their own host of problems completely unrelated to Champion performance.

If SSG really wants to balance classes in PVMP, they need to just limit the trait points you can use in the moors or something and give players a complementary “PVMP only” trait page to use. Otherwise, every time a class gets buffed or nerfed for PVE purposes, threads like these will pop up with half a dozen PVMP players losing their minds and screaming, “It’s OP!!! NERF IT!!!!”

[Joedangod]

1) Yes, same with hunters. Hunters are burst ranged DPS and champs are burst melee DPS. This is not an issue, it's how the class is designed.

It is currently an issue, two burst damage classes outperform the ones with greater ramp time. That needs to be addressed.

2) Champs have 25 seconds of slow immunity every 2 minutes, the comments here make it sound like every champ is running a PvP build traited deep in red with a tracery to boost sprint. Champs are still susceptible to roots, stuns, mezzes, and any other form of CC when sprint is up. Also, champs are the only DPS class with no ranged attacks. They don't have javelins, bow skills (let fly doesn't count), they can't cast spells, so it makes sense to give them the ability to break out of a slow periodically to prevent them from being vegetables.

Yes, Burglars/Guardians/Brawlers are all renowned ranged DPS options. Champs aren't susceptible to some roots when it's active (flayer root comes to mind as one such example) and Champs do have access to more CC immunity if they so desire it. Saying it's only "25 seconds of every 2 minutes" is understating it, if there is ever a situation where greater slow immunity is desired Champs can and will upgrade it to 45s of every minute.

3) Champions' Duel is red line only and the way it ramps up over time makes it a very useful skill but nothing game breaking. There's nothing OP about Champion's challenge, it's designed to provide the raid a way for champs to swap aggro for a very short amount of time. It makes the class more versatile. Yes there is a 5 second 30% damage reduction, but that also makes sense to prevent the champ from getting one shot. AoE stuns are one of the most signature champ skills and should not be touched. Every DPS class (except Wardens) has the ability to AoE stun, champs can just do it more often by cashing out all their fervour. The crafted horns were OP, but their duration was recently nerfed by 50%, so they are fine at 5 seconds.

Champ's duel is one of the few incurable slows that can stack with other slows, it's also fairly high magnitude. Champs challenge is pretty damn overpowered, it's literally the single largest outgoing damage reduction in the game. Outside of Yellow RK the other DPS classes have way less access to AoE CC, most having significantly longer CD's than Champ stuns/not guaranteeing the stun (in the case of something like Brawler it's a mere 50% chance). Of course none of these other specs have anywhere near Champ AoE DPS. Not sure why you're talking about "cashing out all their fervour" as if that was an actual thing that required build-up and wasn't something they could cap out in 2 seconds.

4) Again, you are assuming every champ is specced deep into blue for Dire Need, deep into red for killing spree, deep into yellow for blade of courage, AND has traceries to improve self healing skills slotted. Bracing attack is perfectly fine, I would equate it to press onward. Fight on is perfectly fine, it's similar to blood arrow. Dire need could be moved deeper into blue and made tank line only. Killing spree is completely fine, it's used primarily for landscape content and requires you to trait deep into red to access it.

I am not assuming anything. Champion has access to all those things should it want them, many won't bother going for such items as they can be mostly unnecessary but if the situation arises where such abilities are valuable then those items will be picked up. Nobody is assuming all these items are traited at once.

-We have too many trait points at the current level cap, and non-blue champs shouldn't have access to dire need and non-red champs shouldn't have access to deep strikes. You fix these two things and everything else is perfectly fine.

How would everything be fine? Champions would still outperform the vast majority of other DPS specs despite being a burst class. Again, burst classes should not be exceeding the sustained DPS of classes with longer ramp time. The strength of a burst class comes from it's ability to squeeze out most of its DPS during periods of low target uptime, the fact that Champs can pretty much dominate dummy parses is a major red flag.

[Strider5548]

It is currently an issue, two burst damage classes outperform the ones with greater ramp time. That needs to be addressed, the



Yes, Burglars/Guardians/Brawlers are all renowned ranged DPS options. Champs aren't susceptible to some roots when it's active (flayer root comes to mind as one such example) and Champs do have access to more CC immunity if they so desire it. Saying it's only "25 seconds of every 2 minutes" is understating it, if there is ever a situation where greater slow immunity is desired Champs can and will upgrade it to 45s of every minute.



Champ's duel is one of the few incurable slows that can stack with other slows, it's also fairly high magnitude. Champs challenge is pretty damn overpowered, it's literally the single largest outgoing damage reduction in the game. Outside of Yellow RK the other DPS classes have way less access to AoE CC, most having significantly longer CD's than Champ stuns/not guaranteeing the stun (in the case of something like Brawler it's a mere 50% chance). Of course none of these other specs have anywhere near Champ AoE DPS. Not sure why you're talking about "cashing out all their fervour" as if that was an actual thing that required build-up and wasn't something they could cap out in 2 seconds.



I am not assuming anything. Champion has access to all those things should it want them, many won't bother going for such items as they can be mostly unnecessary but if the situation arises where such abilities are valuable then those items will be picked up. Nobody is assuming all these items are traited at once.



How would everything be fine? Champions would still outperform the vast majority of other DPS specs despite being a burst class. Again, burst classes should not be exceeding the sustained DPS of classes with longer ramp time. The strength of a burst class comes from it's ability to squeeze out most of its DPS during periods of low target uptime, the fact that Champs can pretty much dominate dummy parses is a major red flag.

I get you are trying to play a Brawler and the class is quite broken right now. I don't think you should focus your efforts on calling for nerfs on the most similar class, but rather maybe concentrate on suggestions to buff Brawler.

Regarding champs, at this point I think we just have to agree to disagree.

[Joedangod]

I get you are trying to play a Brawler and the class is quite broken right now. I don't think you should focus your efforts on calling for nerfs on the most similar class, but rather maybe concentrate on suggestions to buff Brawler.

Bit irrelevant and a tad amusing. I've thrown out a few suggestions for Brawler but there's absolutely no way I'd ask for them to buffed in line with the current state of Champion, no class should be operating at that level. Hell, I'm still annoyed they buffed Beorning to the current level it exists at. The design of that class is legitimate garbage, relying on wonky overpowered skills such as maul or bees to justify it's place in the meta. Champion certainly isn't quite as bad as Beorning but honestly it's close, with the removal of weapon swapping Champs received a somewhat overblown damage adjustment to compensate, they really needed a mechanical adjustment as well.

Regarding champs, at this point I think we just have to agree to disagree.

Your disagreement isn't particularly helpful. Myself and others have pointed out some of the Champion classes many advantages over just about every other class in the game when it comes to the DPS role (especially as it pertains to Moors play), if you can dispute said advantages please do so, that's the only way to further the discussion. Anything else is just noise.

[mikkye]

Ive been warned that champ shouldnt receive any buffs and actually deserves nerfs before 140 went live but devs do not listen and champion players really think they need to do good single target damage, or their class is unviable.

Its disgusting and I wish nothing but the worse for the champ mains who defend its current state and the devs who dont know what they created and how it affects the other dps classes who wish to compete.


The champion sprint is a complete joke and the fact champ mains defend it is one thing but when the devs cant identify thats a huge problem but then nerf hunter and hunters penetrating shot to have a cooldown because a 14 second video clip.

All this has already been said on 140 Bullroarer during end of 130 I wouldn't waste time cuz its literally all been said before.

[Wolfhead]

I wish nothing but the worse for the champ mains who defend its current state and the devs who dont know what they created and how it affects the other dps classes who wish to compete.

Good lord, I've never seen so many salty and bitter tears from whiners. Champions are supposed to be the main AOE DPS class and it fulfills that function admirably. It's finally in a decent state.

[mikkye]

you never played the game I could tell. Imagine posting "It's finally in a decent state." like there has been a moment in its history they werent the ideal choice for heavy aoe fights. you really make yourself look uneducated on here posting like champ did bad aoe in past 4 level caps


in deep denial or trolling

[mikkye]

1) Yes, same with hunters. Hunters are burst ranged DPS and champs are burst melee DPS. This is not an issue, it's how the class is designed.
2) Champs have 25 seconds of slow immunity every 2 minutes, the comments here make it sound like every champ is running a PvP build traited deep in red with a tracery to boost sprint. Champs are still susceptible to roots, stuns, mezzes, and any other form of CC when sprint is up. Also, champs are the only DPS class with no ranged attacks. They don't have javelins, bow skills (let fly doesn't count), they can't cast spells, so it makes sense to give them the ability to break out of a slow periodically to prevent them from being vegetables.
3) Champions' Duel is red line only and the way it ramps up over time makes it a very useful skill but nothing game breaking. There's nothing OP about Champion's challenge, it's designed to provide the raid a way for champs to swap aggro for a very short amount of time. It makes the class more versatile. Yes there is a 5 second 30% damage reduction, but that also makes sense to prevent the champ from getting one shot. AoE stuns are one of the most signature champ skills and should not be touched. Every DPS class (except Wardens) has the ability to AoE stun, champs can just do it more often by cashing out all their fervour. The crafted horns were OP, but their duration was recently nerfed by 50%, so they are fine at 5 seconds.
4) Again, you are assuming every champ is specced deep into blue for Dire Need, deep into red for killing spree, deep into yellow for blade of courage, AND has traceries to improve self healing skills slotted. Bracing attack is perfectly fine, I would equate it to press onward. Fight on is perfectly fine, it's similar to blood arrow. Dire need could be moved deeper into blue and made tank line only. Killing spree is completely fine, it's used primarily for landscape content and requires you to trait deep into red to access it.

Summary again:

-Everyone seems to be listing out a bunch of skills that are rarely (if even possible) to acquire together and crying about champs being OP. This is the equivalent of saying any class with unlimited tracery slots and the ability to trait all 3 lines at once is OP so SSG needs to nerf them.
-We have too many trait points at the current level cap, and non-blue champs shouldn't have access to dire need and non-red champs shouldn't have access to deep strikes. You fix these two things and everything else is perfectly fine.

The problem is mainly how yellow champ is undisputed in aoe but now also is undisputed in burst dps and overall dps. I dont care if hunt is 5-10% more dps on a training dummy than champ. Champ is just better because for tht 5-10% they are remarkably easier set up and burst with and fully mobile two things which ppl forget hunter is terrible at so that 5% less dps has way more value in actual content being run and not some 4 hour training dummy session without moving once to break an induction.

[Sk0field]

I grew tired with this community stating the obvious: Yellow Champ does WAY too much single target DPS... It's totally out of line, and it should have been nerfed with the 140 update. It's definitely about time now...!

[mikkye]

Youd think after so much qq devs would understand but i dont think they play the game to test these classes or like you said champ wouldve been nerfed at start of 140.

But no we got time to keep posting i want see this hit 100 pages


And if not why cant a dev acknowledge this and justify why champion is in its current state or atleast defend it themselves

[Strider5548]

The problem is mainly how yellow champ is undisputed in aoe but now also is undisputed in burst dps and overall dps. I dont care if hunt is 5-10% more dps on a training dummy than champ. Champ is just better because for tht 5-10% they are remarkably easier set up and burst with and fully mobile two things which ppl forget hunter is terrible at so that 5% less dps has way more value in actual content being run and not some 4 hour training dummy session without moving once to break an induction.

Nobody is arguing that yellow champ DPS is too high relative to red on live servers. This is 100% because yellow line has access to the deep strikes trait line. If you move deep strikes into the red capstone you immediately drop yellow line DPS by about 10-20% and put it well below red line for single target damage potential. If you actually look at champs on legendary servers, yellow line is significantly behind red line. It's not the skills or traceries that are an issue, it's deep strikes.

All the other nonsense about self heals and sprint just boils down to crying over PvMP and has no place in LOTRO PvE game balance. It's the equivalent of saying hunters are way too OP because they can do all of their burst DPS from >50 meters away. Yea, you can make that statement because of a bad PvMP experience, but anyone with a brain knows that if you look beyond that context there's no merit to it.

But no we got time to keep posting i want see this hit 100 pages

Its disgusting and I wish nothing but the worse for the champ mains who defend its current state and the devs who dont know what they created and how it affects the other dps classes who wish to compete.

Dude don't sink down to the OP's level of trolling.

[theultimatekyle]

Deep strikes isnt the issue, the issue is you can trait both brutal strikes and ferocious strikes in yellow line. Easiest solution would be to cut the damage of both skills by half, then add that damage back in as part of a red line trait set bonus on the left hand side of the trait panel. That would cut yellow champ single target dps by a full third, without making major changes to rotation or having to move traits around on the tree.

[gaara908776]

Deep strikes isnt the issue, the issue is you can trait both brutal strikes and ferocious strikes in yellow line. Easiest solution would be to cut the damage of both skills by half, then add that damage back in as part of a red line trait set bonus on the left hand side of the trait panel. That would cut yellow champ single target dps by a full third, without making major changes to rotation or having to move traits around on the tree.

Seems like an easier solution to make a passive damage trait capstone for Red, that way they don’t have to mess with any damage tuning. They could literally move the trait down to capstone so that it’s never available to yellow, regardless of trait points. Deep strikes is consistently a huge chunk of damage in yellow line and it deals that damage passively.

Punishing players who work out high brutal/fero skill usage in yellow line seems pretty counterintuitive compared to just removing a trait from their Arsenal that guarantees a ton of passive damage from critical hits.

One of the Red line capstone traits is already pretty useless(weapon master), just swap the placement of Deep Strikes with that. Both are passive damage increases so it doesn’t seem that unreasonable.

[theultimatekyle]

Deepstrikes is only about 10% of a champs dps right now. Its really not the problem. But a yellow champ shouldnt be matching a red champ in single target damage. Its supposed to be the AoE line. Moving deepstrikes trait wont fix the issue with yellow champ utility. They backed themselves into a corner by making two of the hardest hitting redline skills traitable in yellowline, so it makes sense to weaken those skills while in yellow, but keeping their damage up for red.

[Gunhard]

So many ppl tempted to nerf champ but seems like dont even play it. Moving traits to get rid of deep strikes in yellowe line is a weird idea. What about the fact that we have 98 class trait points to spend now? Maybe move all decent traits to capstone then, so they wont be reachable in not main specs and fill the gaps with stat traits? Compared to universal traits for most classes with all available skills we had in vanilla its still a limitation and going there just to nerf damage is a wrong move. You can do it with all classes that way then but i dont think many will be happy, since we still could hear moaning how rohan trait trees ruined the game for ppl, when in reality its a wrong statement.

If you want to nerf damage you can simply reduce it on skills, in this case on aoe skills, but is this really needed? Champ get mits reduction in yellow, this is the main buff you get from yellow line. But is that a problem in raids where you need all damage you can offer on 140 cap? Im not sure. Raid isnt released yet and i dont see a need to mess around with current state of classes to fine tune them to fix it later if thing will go wrong. Underperforming classes definitely should be buffed, but asking for nerfs to make life on your class easier is a bad habit, which very often comes from ltp issue.

This thread started with asking for champ utility nerf for pvmp only, which i dont agree with, maybe cd for sprint should be increased. But here we are, ppl already started to asking for damage nerfs and writing some funny stories about hunter should be a best dps in the game since class doesnt have a group utility. Looks like time to ignore it, but Zaheer will definitely come later to bump it. So all cappies and his particularly, especially in pvmp, wont feel disadvantage compared to champs utility, which is also debatable statement. On some game forums there is a rule that you cant bump or will be banned, or moderators just close the thread, but it is what it is.

[Joedangod]

All the other nonsense about self heals and sprint just boils down to crying over PvMP and has no place in LOTRO PvE game balance.

Yeah, Moors balance is something that should be considered. Especially considering the things people point at as broken in the moors are things you keep telling us are useless in PvE. If it's useless in PvE, it can be nerfed for Moors play without making much of a PvE impact.

Underperforming classes definitely should be buffed, but asking for nerfs to make life on your class easier is a bad habit, which very often comes from ltp issue.

Most classes are underperforming compared to Champion rather than underperforming in the content that is out. They can complete the current content fine, they're just blatantly a weaker choice than Champions when it comes to DPS. In this case nerfs are fairly justified, it's a whole lot less work to nerf 1-2 classes than it is to buff 9.

[Kate00]

All the other nonsense about self heals and sprint just boils down to crying over PvMP and has no place in LOTRO PvE game balance. It's the equivalent of saying hunters are way too OP because they can do all of their burst DPS from >50 meters away. Yea, you can make that statement because of a bad PvMP experience, but anyone with a brain knows that if you look beyond that context there's no merit to it.

you seem like a well educated champ? Maybe you can explain why champ sprint on such a short cd with such a lengthy duration is needed to complete raid content or to kill landscape mobs. thanks in advance! then explain why they should be able to avoid death in pvp 100% of the time.

[mikkye]

Have time today strider. You see I don’t know what your position even is. Do you think yellow champ needs a nerf or do you not?

If you do can we get a tally of votes on does everyone agree yellow champ is over performing and if majority think that lets nerf it.


Almost everyone here acknowledges yellow champs are too strong but then get wide tracked about none relevant tiny details. The fact of matter is it’s over performing and needs to be nerfed.

[Strider5548]

Have time today strider. You see I don’t know what your position even is. Do you think yellow champ needs a nerf or do you not?

If you do can we get a tally of votes on does everyone agree yellow champ is over performing and if majority think that lets nerf it.


Almost everyone here acknowledges yellow champs are too strong but then get wide tracked about none relevant tiny details. The fact of matter is it’s over performing and needs to be nerfed.

Mikkye you are talking about something different than half the people here. I agree with you that yellow champ damage (on live servers) needs to be tuned down below red line. That seems to be your argument too, and what some people here are saying. The other half (and really the topic of this thread) is arguing about champ self heals and sprint because they had bad experiences in PvMP.

As I've said before, give creeps the ability to counter whatever utility the devs think is OP in PvMP, and keep it 100% out of PvE.

Then move deep strikes deeper into red and you have reduced those 400k yellow champ parses down to about 350k without killing the rotation or damaging the dps output for people who aren't at level cap yet.

Deep strikes isnt the issue, the issue is you can trait both brutal strikes and ferocious strikes in yellow line. Easiest solution would be to cut the damage of both skills by half, then add that damage back in as part of a red line trait set bonus on the left hand side of the trait panel. That would cut yellow champ single target dps by a full third, without making major changes to rotation or having to move traits around on the tree.

This is an awful idea. You would be nerfing red champ DPS which is not needed and destroying yellow rotation at the same time. Also, a 1/3 cut to yellow DPS output is insane.

[Zaheer]

Mikkye you are talking about something different than half the people here. I agree with you that yellow champ damage (on live servers) needs to be tuned down below red line. That seems to be your argument too, and what some people here are saying. The other half (and really the topic of this thread) is arguing about champ self heals and sprint because they had bad experiences in PvMP.

As I've said before, give creeps the ability to counter whatever utility the devs think is OP in PvMP, and keep it 100% out of PvE.

Then move deep strikes deeper into red and you have reduced those 400k yellow champ parses down to about 350k without killing the rotation or damaging the dps output for people who aren't at level cap yet.




This is an awful idea. You would be nerfing red champ DPS which is not needed and destroying yellow rotation at the same time. Also, a 1/3 cut to yellow DPS output is insane.

dude pls stop, you're going in a never-ending circle. it's starting to shift into meme'able content rn.

stay on topic

-ramp up dmg
-selfhealing (in red and yellow)
-utility being through the roof, this includes sprint.

[mikkye]

Please enlighten us on how to reduce champions dps and some utility?

You agree it's too much but how can we fix it?

[Hengiliath]

Alright.
Been following the development of this thread, and now I realise I forgot to get a bag of popcorn for this.
Zaheer was talking about utility and selfheals, which are arguably very strong on champ, and where have we landed? Nerf everything! Nerf bleeds! Nerf AoE! Nerf ST! nerf Yellow, red whatever!
Yeah exactly!
How did you call it, Zaheer? Monkey chimp class? No its not. To maximize champ DPS, a player needs a good understanding of champ mechanics and skill chains. No button mashing involved because it wont help.
Where does this hate come from, Zaheer? You making me laugh.
You dont like a class? live with it. Dont cry for nerfs.

Champion has a long history of being in a bad place. Finally I have seen this class come to the functionality it was originally designed for: as the main, classic melee damage dealer of this game with strong AoE utility.

I see a lot of players here who dont even play this class but still whine about this and that. Before you open your mouth, actually test it. Play champion.

If we talking about urgent fixes, SSG should URGENTLY consider fixing a few other classes who dont even have 2 viable lines. Which is very limiting.
And entirely fix that one class which is almost completely useless.

[Joedangod]

How did you call it, Zaheer? Monkey chimp class? No its not. To maximize champ DPS, a player needs a good understanding of champ mechanics and skill chains.

The level of understanding required to maximise champion DPS is fairly low compared to other classes. Champions don't really have any mechanics these days since fervour can go from 0-5 in 2s or so. The only real limiter on skills is their cooldowns and you don't really require much encounter knowledge to make Champion work since it's pretty much 24/7 burst DPS, no ramp required. Compare Champion to something like Red Beorning and you'll pretty quickly notice the difference in complexity, to maximise a Red Beorning you have to maintain multiple buffs, bleeds, and debuffs which require frequent form swapping, you have to hold wrath as high as possible to ensure maximum crit chance, and you have to ensure you can full maul value on targets through smart positioning and timing.

Champs and Bears may parse relatively similar values on training dummies (Bear admittedly inflates the parse a fair bit with their debuffs) but in an actual encounter the Beorning will drop off in effectiveness by a fair bit purely because its DPS requires significantly more prep.

Where does this hate come from, Zaheer? You making me laugh.
You dont like a class? live with it. Dont cry for nerfs.

Hypothetically what would your stance be if they went and made Brawler do double the DPS of a Champion in the next update? Would you insist that Champions...and every single other DPS class should receive massive DPS buffs to compete or would you agree to the more rational solution of simply nerfing the one outlier class?

Champion has a long history of being in a bad place.

Please point to a single moment in the games history where Champion was not the best AoE DPS.

Finally I have seen this class come to the functionality it was originally designed for: as the main, classic melee damage dealer of this game with strong AoE utility.

There is no such thing as a "main melee damage dealer" role. Game has 6 melee classes with DPS specs, none of them should be inherently superior at that role.

I see a lot of players here who dont even play this class but still whine about this and that. Before you open your mouth, actually test it. Play champion.

People have tested it, thoroughly. Why do you think there are so many Champs running about these days? It's the flavour-of-the-month class.