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  1. #1

    Nerf champion utility & selfheals

    Yeah yeah so many tears of champions who were afraid their class was gone obsolete after LI swap removal

    but now, you've created a monster with so much ridiculous amount of utility it's not even a joke anymore and beyond the scope of what should be acceptable within a class, speaking about both PvE and PvMP situations here.


    • 48 s sprint with 1min cd. Who thought this was a good idea? A fixed + X % run speed bonus that cannot be affected, granting the champion full immunity on slows, disarms, and stuns. I really do not care if the excuse comes that a class shouldn't be affected by PvMP circumstances, because even in PvE, this is outright ridiculous and blown over the top.
    • 35% bracing attack heal, basically making the champion immortal since this heal can crit with a cd of 30 seconds lmao. The red champion had more than enough self-heal through % heal of its skills, strikes, and killing blows. The bracing attack should be lowered
    • Dire need in red is outright ridiculous to have next to bracing selfheal in redline.
    • Fight on crit % bonus tracery for what exactly?


    Too much utility is granted to a class that should only be good at brawling, not out healing its opponents. It never should have had this amount of self-healing capability. This class has everything now. Good DPS, good heal, good utility, what do you want more.
    WhiteGoliath

    You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.

  2. #2
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    I'm seriously laughing my #### off right now.


    Awww did a champion beat up your creep and now you're gonna cry about it or did you get passed over for a group by a champion?

    Seriously get a grip!
    Formerly from Elendilmir

    A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan next week.
    Gen. Patton

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by MourneBlade View Post
    I'm seriously laughing my #### off right now.


    Awww did a champion beat up your creep and now you're gonna cry about it or did you get passed over for a group by a champion?

    Seriously get a grip!
    My dear chaimp,

    allow me to comment on the false assumption you made and that you concluded I was ''beaten up'' by a champ.

    No, I don't do it because I was beaten up by a champ as a creep, I do it because my own class has to suffer for the abysmal utility that you've got right there.

    You see, creeps are currently being scaled heavily onto freeps, to be more precise, champions. Classes like a captain, Lore-master, Warden, rune-keeper, and perhaps even hunter struggle heavily with this due to our classes simply not being on par with the way champions are right now.

    So that concludes your false assumption, and I'll make sure your class is gonna get stripped of the ridiculous amount of utility you're having right now.

    your captain
    Last edited by Zaheer; Nov 29 2021 at 08:35 AM.
    WhiteGoliath

    You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.

  4. #4

    Post

    I agree that bracing attack heal and dire need are too strong in yellow and red as for the moment. That kind of healing potency belongs to blue only imo.
    Sprint is outright broken. Length, cooldown.. just broken. Should be fixed, especially in regards for PvP.

    As for all the rest, I believe the champion is in a good spot as THE classic melee damage dealer, and I hope he remains.
    No i ahië ya meril cenë Ambaressë ~
    Be the change you wish to see in the world

    [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDcnEhASd9U ]

  5. #5
    You guys do realize the Sprint thing is not new, right? Any Champ worth their salt had a swappy with +5s horn duration and sprint legacy on a swappy. The only real Change is that we now have Bracing attack heal scaled properly. Pre HD, bracing attack was pretty strong(comparable to non tracery bracing if you had high incoming healing).

    Champ is a bit strong right now but that’s compared to most other classes being in a weak place. It’s not hard to tell how weak/under tuned most classes are when doing stuff like T3 Pughlak.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post

    So that concludes your false assumption, and I'll make sure your class is gonna get stripped of the ridiculous amount of utility you're having right now.

    your captain
    Okay we'll see what happens, until that actually happens-keep dreaming.
    Formerly from Elendilmir

    A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan next week.
    Gen. Patton

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by MourneBlade View Post
    Okay we'll see what happens, until that actually happens-keep dreaming.
    alright saltkeeper
    WhiteGoliath

    You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    So that concludes your false assumption, and I'll make sure your class is gonna get stripped of the ridiculous amount of utility you're having right now.

    your captain
    LOL, this right here is exactly why no one from SSG should take it seriously. Don't get emotional over PvP, it's not worth it.

    Champs are actually fine where they are, yes you can keep sprint up for a very long time on short CD but you need your traits and LI's tweaked in order to get that which comes at a cost. Bracing attack is perfectly fine, it was broken before and they fixed it now. Champs have less self heals than hunters and they fight in melee range where they need more survivability, their self heals are not OP.

    With that said, unless SSG is willing to give all players access to PvMP (I'm looking at all the VIPs on legendary servers), they should never make freep changes to balance the moors.
    Servers: Treebeard | Arkenstone | Landroval
    Classes: Hunter | Champion | Loremaster | Warden | Beorning | Guardian | Captain | Burglar
    Creeps: Warleader | Reaver

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    No, I don't do it because I was beaten up by a champ as a creep, I do it because my own class has to suffer for the abysmal utility that you've got right there.
    Where exactly are Captains suffering because of Champ utility lol?

    Bracing attack and Dire Need BOTH needed serious fixing, they were broken and underscaled for so many years, they're finally in a good position, so much so that BLUE CHAMPS are actually viable now in content because they actually have working cooldowns and self-heals. Yeah, these things probably shouldn't be available in Red/Yellow, it adds too much survivability to a DPS class, but how exactly does this effect a Captain, like, at all? lol.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    LOL, this right here is exactly why no one from SSG should take it seriously. Don't get emotional over PvP, it's not worth it.

    Champs are actually fine where they are, yes you can keep sprint up for a very long time on short CD but you need your traits and LI's tweaked in order to get that which comes at a cost. Bracing attack is perfectly fine, it was broken before and they fixed it now. Champs have less self heals than hunters and they fight in melee range where they need more survivability, their self heals are not OP.

    With that said, unless SSG is willing to give all players access to PvMP (I'm looking at all the VIPs on legendary servers), they should never make freep changes to balance the moors.
    ah okay, so you think healing for 1million is fine, alright
    having a 90% uptime on sprint is fine
    having a ridiculous amount of utility as a primary DPS heavy class is fine

    you fail to realize a champ is only a good brawling class, it never should be able to heal the way it does now.

    anyway I can't take this comment seriously so



    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Where exactly are Captains suffering because of Champ utility lol?

    Bracing attack and Dire Need BOTH needed serious fixing, they were broken and underscaled for so many years, they're finally in a good position, so much so that BLUE CHAMPS are actually viable now in content because they actually have working cooldowns and self-heals. Yeah, these things probably shouldn't be available in Red/Yellow, it adds too much survivability to a DPS class, but how exactly does this effect a Captain, like, at all? lol.
    ah my dear alexiis, I think you failed to see it wasn't about the captain only

    I request you reread and then come back
    WhiteGoliath

    You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    I do it because my own class has to suffer for the abysmal utility that you've got right there.
    >>

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    ah my dear alexiis, I think you failed to see it wasn't about the captain only

    I request you reread and then come back
    Maybe read what you have actually written? You main Captain. Where does "YOUR" class [Captain] suffer because of Champions?

    Secondly, nice deflect and failure to respond to what I wrote, good job

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    >>



    Maybe read what you have actually written? You main Captain. Where does "YOUR" class [Captain] suffer because of Champions?

    Secondly, nice deflect and failure to respond to what I wrote, good job
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    You see, creeps are currently being scaled heavily onto freeps, to be more precise, champions. Classes like a captain, Lore-master, Warden, rune-keeper, and perhaps even hunter struggle heavily with this due to our classes simply not being on par with the way champions are right now.
    right
    WhiteGoliath

    You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    right
    Where exactly has Fantus said Creeps are being scaled Vs Champs? Quote please

    EDIT: It has also LONG been established that Freeps will not be balanced around Creeps, Creeps are to be balanced around Freeps. So expecting freep changes because of PvMP? Not going to happen dude.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Where exactly has Fantus said Creeps are being scaled Vs Champs? Quote please
    its pretty obvious the majority is being scaled onto champions the way they are now, if you put up anything against an LM, they will simply not stand a chance. This concludes this topic, I don't need to deliver proof to the obvious.


    LM is so weak, it stands absolutely no chance even against reavers, because everything is scaled heavily to withstand champions decently in group/solo fights.

    Or are you gonna say champions are fine the way they are now? Isn't it obvious that the majority of freeps in the moors consist of champions?

    I think you already lost this discussion.
    WhiteGoliath

    You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    So expecting freep changes because of PvMP? Not going to happen dude.
    To be fair, there are plenty of freep changes that should happen because of PvE. The fact that they'd also result in a notable improvement on the PvMP side is just the cherry on top.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    To be fair, there are plenty of freep changes that should happen because of PvE. The fact that they'd also result in a notable improvement on the PvMP side is just the cherry on top.
    Perhaps, yes, but they've long stated they balance creeps around freeps, and freeps around pve, not the other way around.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post

    anyway I can't take this comment seriously so
    rage posting and crying for a nerf on the forums because someone beat you at pvp is what I can't take seriously.
    Servers: Treebeard | Arkenstone | Landroval
    Classes: Hunter | Champion | Loremaster | Warden | Beorning | Guardian | Captain | Burglar
    Creeps: Warleader | Reaver

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    rage posting and crying for a nerf on the forums because someone beat you at pvp is what I can't take seriously.
    yeah right, I'm not gonna sit here and watch other freep classes suffer(including my own) because champ is ridiculously overturned.
    think twice, I want my 1v1s. I cannot have my 1v1s if creeps are tuned on your silly champion class.
    WhiteGoliath

    You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    yeah right, I'm not gonna sit here and watch other freep classes suffer(including my own) because champ is ridiculously overturned.
    think twice, I want my 1v1s. I cannot have my 1v1s if creeps are tuned on your silly champion class.
    I'm sorry but you sound like an irrational child, I can only trust the devs are smart enough to ignore your posts. Have fun.
    Servers: Treebeard | Arkenstone | Landroval
    Classes: Hunter | Champion | Loremaster | Warden | Beorning | Guardian | Captain | Burglar
    Creeps: Warleader | Reaver

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Perhaps, yes, but they've long stated they balance creeps around freeps, and freeps around pve, not the other way around.
    Right...but these problems aren't exclusive to PvMP.

    The Sprint uptime should be significantly lower in PvE, never mind PvMP.
    The Dire Need crit chance % shouldn't be a thing in PvE, never mind PvMP.
    The Bracing Attack 35% heal value with 30s CD on DPS specs shouldn't be a thing in PvE, never mind PvMP.

    There are a lot of PvE problems with Champion that become much bigger problems when you look at them within a PvMP context. There's no point adjusting creeps against this, they should just be adjusting the Champion itself because none of these abilities have any place on the class within a PvE context.

    The angle Zaheer is arguing from may, debatably, be wrong. But the point he's making overall is pretty valid. Champion is overtuned in several areas, it should be nerfed.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Right...but these problems aren't exclusive to PvMP.

    The Sprint uptime should be significantly lower in PvE, never mind PvMP.
    The Dire Need crit chance % shouldn't be a thing in PvE, never mind PvMP.
    The Bracing Attack 35% heal value with 30s CD on DPS specs shouldn't be a thing in PvE, never mind PvMP.

    There are a lot of PvE problems with Champion that become much bigger problems when you look at them within a PvMP context. There's no point adjusting creeps against this, they should just be adjusting the Champion itself because none of these abilities have any place on the class within a PvE context.

    The angle Zaheer is arguing from may, debatably, be wrong. But the point he's making overall is pretty valid. Champion is overtuned in several areas, it should be nerfed.
    I think it's a little premature in the expansion to start calling for nerfs. Nobody has any idea what DPS comparisons will be like once folks actually start gearing up properly.

    At the end of the day in high tier PvE raid content DPS classes have to do as much damage as possible and stay alive. Only 1 of the 3 things you brought up has to do with DPS and we just don't know yet where champ DPS will be relative to everyone else once we get to the core of this expansion. If champs end up doing significantly less DPS than hunters and Wardens, then that crit chance % would be necessary, if they do a lot more, then maybe it should be scaled back. Saying it has no place in PvE is totally subjective.

    As for bracing attack, the skill is fine, some people think DPS classes shouldn't be able to heal at all, I disagree. I think 35% heal every 30 seconds makes sense when you are in melee range and potentially taking hits. Classes are more interesting when they have more options. If you need to slow down your DPS by throwing in a self heal in the rotation then that's a situational choice you should be able to make in order to contribute to your role of maximizing DPS/staying alive more effectively.

    Say what you will about sprint, but outside of PvP it's completely fine. It's a fun skill, it makes the class more enjoyable especially on landscape, and if people want to spec for a 25% runspeed boost that has a lot of uptime then there's no problem with that. It's one of the fun things that makes champ unique. 25% is much slower than other classes in combat runspeed boosts, but the uptime is much higher, that's the tradeoff.
    Servers: Treebeard | Arkenstone | Landroval
    Classes: Hunter | Champion | Loremaster | Warden | Beorning | Guardian | Captain | Burglar
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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Right...but these problems aren't exclusive to PvMP.

    The Sprint uptime should be significantly lower in PvE, never mind PvMP.
    The Dire Need crit chance % shouldn't be a thing in PvE, never mind PvMP.
    The Bracing Attack 35% heal value with 30s CD on DPS specs shouldn't be a thing in PvE, never mind PvMP.

    There are a lot of PvE problems with Champion that become much bigger problems when you look at them within a PvMP context. There's no point adjusting creeps against this, they should just be adjusting the Champion itself because none of these abilities have any place on the class within a PvE context.

    The angle Zaheer is arguing from may, debatably, be wrong. But the point he's making overall is pretty valid. Champion is overtuned in several areas, it should be nerfed.
    from a pvmp standpoint, yes, its wrong and I am aware. But I am not gonna sit here watch my captain compensate for such a meme class called chimp

    Lets get real

    • High CC
    • High utility through self buffs, stuns, slows, outg dmg debuffs
    • High DPS both ST and AOE
    • insane selfhealing capability through dire need and bracing attack
    • being heavy armour, implying you can build mitigations past 40 decently quick, giving you naturally more protection
    • being a monkey class because its mechanically not difficult to spam your remorseless strike.


    and what does cappy have solo?

    • okay selfheals within pvmp, could be better due weird scaling
    • good utility through buffs
    • very poor at anti cc, can be perma slowed, kited and stunned very easily
    • Having good mitigations due being heavy
    • actually requires brain to play
    • no CC apart from cutting attack, routing(if traited) and pet stun with 25% chance
    • has okay burst damage, but no real dps both ST and AOE


    creeps are given brands with a 1min cooldown to deal with 90% uptime sprinting chimps
    if you think that as a DPS class, these heals and all this utility is balanced, you're out of your mind tbh
    then I don't even speak for the other freep since it's not within my knowledge, but let's say LM, warden, and RKs are being heavily overshadowed by champions.




    If you look at champions from a PvE perspective, their heals, cc, sprint are absolutely nuts and that needs to be taken away.
    Last edited by Zaheer; Dec 01 2021 at 05:29 AM.
    WhiteGoliath

    You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.

  23. #23
    Dire need and bracing should never have been buffed like this. Completely support nerfing both skills into the ground outside of blue line.

    Sprint is nowhere near as op in pve as you are saying, hell nobody even traits that #### in raids (except maybe now with the pepega trait point bloat) and to quote Fantus "Champion sprint is a good example of a skill that's 'good' in PvE, but absolutely broken in PvP. Making it interruptible or cancelable from a creep skill would be and example of changing the skill without losing it's PvE benefits." This is the correct approach, not "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh champ run fasty in pvp me cry on forum". Sprint has been as it is for absolutely ages, it's not new. All that said, it could be nerfed without any real impact on pve because there's not really a need for it in any content.
    Last edited by Nubja; Dec 01 2021 at 06:45 AM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubja View Post
    Dire need and bracing should never have been buffed like this. Completely support nerfing both skills into the ground outside of blue line.
    Outside blue line, I agree, Red/Yellow champs shouldn't have access to dire need, that's true, but, to not have bracing attack? I'm not sure I'm with you there..

    Burglars have touch and go and knives out
    Hunters have blood arrow
    RKs have self motivation
    Wardens have Never Surrender
    Bears have Hearten

    ..

    What did champions have? Fight On? Come on, be realistic. Bracing attack should be max 20% outside of blue line, which would it put it on par with other healing abilities on RK and Hunter, and given they're melee, they probably need it even more then both of those classes need theirs.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Outside blue line, I agree, Red/Yellow champs shouldn't have access to dire need, that's true, but, to not have bracing attack? I'm not sure I'm with you there..

    Burglars have touch and go and knives out
    Hunters have blood arrow
    RKs have self motivation
    Wardens have Never Surrender
    Bears have Hearten

    ..

    What did champions have? Fight On? Come on, be realistic. Bracing attack should be max 20% outside of blue line, which would it put it on par with other healing abilities on RK and Hunter, and given they're melee, they probably need it even more then both of those classes need theirs.
    With renewing strikes & fight on champs survive decently in this morale stack world. It's not like before the bracing attack buffs champs were just dropping dead left and right. I'm not saying to remove it anyway, it just needs to be a much lower % (and due to the tracery the base heal has to be really low...)

 

 
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