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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    2,583

    War of Three Peaks: What is the point in being VIP?

    Despite not playing as regularly as I used to back in the day, I remain a VIP. However, this latest announcement has got my questioning the common sense behind this.

    The benefits of being a VIP are significant:
    - Free access to old content
    - Free access to most content
    - Access to PvMP
    - No maintenance on housing
    - A number of QoL things
    - TP to buy expansions when they come along

    Of these, the Moors hasn't seen any significant attention for donkey's years (I believe another thread said 7 years, which may be over exaggeration, but may not be far off), and while perks like the QoL subscriber item and the waiving of housing maintenance are nice, those aren't significant enough for me to want to pay for.

    My focus, as I'm sure is the case for most people, is on the playing of the game's quests, instances and raids. Over the years, I have bought all expansions with real money (other than Minas Morgul, which I used TP for) and as a subscriber for all of that time, I have had free access to all other content.

    SSG's very kind (and clever marketing gesture) of making all previous content free to play was something I am in favour of. However, it means that access to old content is no longer an exclusive benefit of VIPs.

    That leaves free access to new content. Sure, I know that expansions are not included in this - but this 'mini-expansion' seems to have little which couldn't be found in any number of previous quest packs which VIPs got free access to. For example:
    - Eastern Gondor - three regions, 2 three mans, 1 6 man
    - Far Anorien - two regions, 2 three mans, 1 6 man and a raid
    - Where Dragons Dwell - two regions, 2 three mans, 1 6 man and a raid

    All of these appear to be comparable with the War of the Three Peaks - the only difference I see is the new 'missions', which, given the previous attempts to venture into level scaling with BBs and the Moors, do not excite me.


    This leaves me with two questions, which perhaps Cordovan could answer:

    - What justifies this being called a 'mini-expansion' and being charged for?
    - Without any real benefits in terms of access to game content, what is the point of being VIP? (particularly if I can't buy content with TP until much later)
    - Taravan, R12 Captain - Tirian, Tanking Guardian - Telperon, Completionist LM -
    - Afranius, R9 WL - Tolobain, R7 Weaver - Vargan, R6 Stalker -

    Ex-Leader of Lost Realm of Imladris - Evernight - Co-Founder of Beauty and the Beasts

  2. #2
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    I like how this ''mini expansion'' has less content than some questpacks for LP/free for vip. It's just a scam for more money. It's just a questpack, nothing more

  3. #3
    Ever since SSG started delaying the option to buy expansions with LP as opposed to cash, I've always considered it a slap in the face of vip's, lifetimers, and those who buy lotro points.

    Yes, as others have said, I considered this a blatant cash grab. So why continue as a subscriber?

  4. #4
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    Apr 2016
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    406
    I could not agree more. I really think we ought to get an explanation as to what SSG intends the value of a VIP subscription to actually be. If VIPs will have to purchase all new content going forwards, then all we are getting with a subscription is some LP (less than I earn in a month just through playing), mobile services access (useful, but not worth the price), and access to the Legendary servers and freepside PvMP (a.k.a. the two most abandoned and disappointing aspects of the game). If VIP is no longer an alternative to pay-as-you go content purchasing, and is instead merely a subscription to some QOL improvements and "experimental" gameplay aspects, at the same price point as before, then I suppose that's fine, but this needs to be made clear so that people can re-evaluate if it's worth it for them based on this new model.


    As for this "expansion" and what justifies it being called as such, Far Anorien and Ered Mithrin do indeed seem to be the closest comparisons in terms of quantity of content. It's a bit early to say for sure, but from Cordovan's own admission, the size of the new region is similar to Ered Mithrin, and with one 6-man and one raid, that's less instance content than either FA or EM. So so far, we seem to have less content than in either of those quest packs. However, this leaves this whole "missions" thing, which I would like to hear more about as it seems that this is really the only avenue whereby this update could justifiably be called an expansion.


    It's worth comparing what we know so far of WoTP to the smallest expansion to date, Siege of Mirkwood, which also cost $20 when it first came out (with no additional tiers):

    SoM: two 3-mans, two 6-mans, one raid
    vs
    WoTP: one 6-man, one raid


    SoM: decently sized new region (smaller than Moria, larger than other QP areas), totally new area of the game map, "over 100" quests
    vs
    WoTP: small new region, an extension of existing quest pack areas (Wells and EM), "more than 80" missions, unknown number of quests (if there are any)


    SoM: new customisable skirmish system (solo, duo, 3-man, 6-man, 12-man, choice of tiers)
    vs
    WoTP: new mission system (I heard somewhere max 2 players, this could be wrong, no idea on difficulty, not enough info to compare further)


    SoM: level increase of 5
    vs
    WoTP: no level increase


    This comparison is going to be more valuable when we know more about what exactly is being offered with this expansion, but I have to say right now this is not looking good at all. SoM offered more content for the same base price, without bloated price tags for "better editions", and it's also worth noting that the server issues are still not fixed, I have never come across another online game in my life with server problems this bad. How can you ask people to pay up for content that you can't even guarantee they'll be able to play properly?

    One last point. Apparently we are still getting a full Gundabad expansion next year. In the livestream, Cordovan pointed out that the "three peaks" in this expansion's title refer to Gundabad. Can we get some more information from SSG about how they are going to create two fully fledged expansions, each with a suitable amount of content, their own separate regions to explore, instance clusters, and more, all out of just one mountain that really is a minor location in Tolkien's work? How is this not just releasing the same expansion twice?


    I hope that everyone who has paid for SSG expansions in the past takes some time to consider these questions before shelling out for this one.
    Last edited by Morellian; Sep 12 2020 at 04:15 PM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    1,212
    I always like to see the perspective someone wondering why they should remain VIP. As a non-VIP, I can see all the things that I wish I had:

    - Access to mail anywhere. A guardian cannot send me an acorn in the middle of nowhere. Other than my personal house and the kinhouse, I cannot access anybody else's mailbox even if they give me permissions to everything. There still isn't a mailbox in one of the Rohan Housing neighborhoods. This means I have to port out of the area and then port back in.

    - VIP Services. It seems like rapid crafting is a boon to everyone except me. You can die as many times as you want during a raid without leaving to go repair (if you aren't a metalsmith or weaponsmith carrying a spare Repair Anvil). Then of course the Subscriber Town Services gives you access to nearly everything without going into town. It let's you empty your bags the moment they become full or pull something for a friend if you are in the middle of nowhere.

    - Access to PvMP. Our kin is very active in PvMP. I can still get on my reaver if I want to join up on the opposing side but I still have to pay for the other monster classes. Freep action is of course completely out for me (I will not pay for a 6-hour token).

    - Gold Hobbit Presents. I'm envious every time someone gets 5 Universal Solvents from a gold hobbit present. I was super envious when they made festival rewards exclusive as well. I wasn't able to get the Birdhouse/Festive Mount during Yule Festival or Ringlo Steed/Gold Ring Fireworks/Goose House during Midsummer Festival. Although I was able to get a couple things from the silver hobbit present, that extra box could have benefited me greatly.

    - Destiny Points. Many people forget about this feature but there are a couple things that are extremely useful. Increased damage helps in instances and increased speed can help you anywhere as a lower level. Don't forget about the Enhanced XP you can get on a daily basis.

    - VIP Bonus XP. Speaking of bonus XP, you get more of a blue bar whenever you aren't logged in with that character (up to 30%).

    - VIP Cosmetics. I do wish I had an opportunity to get a pig that shoots off fireworks. Or maybe any of those nice Rohan cosmetic sets. That one blue cape would have been cool too. Seems like there is a new thing for VIP every month.

    - VIP Points. Well it's obvious I don't get 500 points. But did you know I spent about 8000 points for all of Gondor quest packs, a stately house in Belfalas Housing neighborhood, and Mordor back in the day? That is a lot of points. I had to save every ounce I had going up to level 95 by doing all the deeds with two characters just to get that amount when returning to the game after a 3-year hiatus.

    - VIP Features. Going into premium status, there are some things I lose out on that I have to reacquire. I only have 5 AH slots (per character). I had to buy wardrobe slots since I lost my 20 from VIP status. I had to buy crafting guild access for each type to continue leveling.

    Now, it is abundantly clear that people don't care about most of this stuff. Some people don't care about outfits or cosmetics. Some people buy expansions when they first release instead of using lotro points after 4 months down the road (Mordor and Minas Morgul both cost 2495 lotro points). A lot of these don't benefit people who have already maxed out their characters. Others don't mind simply using a Valar toon.

    I remember this kind of discussion when Helm's Deep released. There were no instances. They added the Big Battle system where people of all levels could join in. It was the first time you couldn't do the Epic without the expansion. The 4295LP price tag is still controversial, now that we have the previous expansions broken down between quests and instances. I would like to see how these "missions" are utilized. Maybe they are skirmishes like Raiding Party from Minas Morgul? Maybe its a tug-of-war? Maybe you can earn tokens for a bunch of new stuff? I waited for both recent expansions to be offered for lotro points (and missed out on those lovely Mordor Ash Farms). I can do the same for this one.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    2,583
    Quote Originally Posted by WeirdJedi View Post
    I always like to see the perspective someone wondering why they should remain VIP. As a non-VIP, I can see all the things that I wish I had:

    - Access to mail anywhere. A guardian cannot send me an acorn in the middle of nowhere. Other than my personal house and the kinhouse, I cannot access anybody else's mailbox even if they give me permissions to everything. There still isn't a mailbox in one of the Rohan Housing neighborhoods. This means I have to port out of the area and then port back in.

    - VIP Services. It seems like rapid crafting is a boon to everyone except me. You can die as many times as you want during a raid without leaving to go repair (if you aren't a metalsmith or weaponsmith carrying a spare Repair Anvil). Then of course the Subscriber Town Services gives you access to nearly everything without going into town. It let's you empty your bags the moment they become full or pull something for a friend if you are in the middle of nowhere.

    - Access to PvMP. Our kin is very active in PvMP. I can still get on my reaver if I want to join up on the opposing side but I still have to pay for the other monster classes. Freep action is of course completely out for me (I will not pay for a 6-hour token).

    - Gold Hobbit Presents. I'm envious every time someone gets 5 Universal Solvents from a gold hobbit present. I was super envious when they made festival rewards exclusive as well. I wasn't able to get the Birdhouse/Festive Mount during Yule Festival or Ringlo Steed/Gold Ring Fireworks/Goose House during Midsummer Festival. Although I was able to get a couple things from the silver hobbit present, that extra box could have benefited me greatly.

    - Destiny Points. Many people forget about this feature but there are a couple things that are extremely useful. Increased damage helps in instances and increased speed can help you anywhere as a lower level. Don't forget about the Enhanced XP you can get on a daily basis.

    - VIP Bonus XP. Speaking of bonus XP, you get more of a blue bar whenever you aren't logged in with that character (up to 30%).

    - VIP Cosmetics. I do wish I had an opportunity to get a pig that shoots off fireworks. Or maybe any of those nice Rohan cosmetic sets. That one blue cape would have been cool too. Seems like there is a new thing for VIP every month.

    - VIP Points. Well it's obvious I don't get 500 points. But did you know I spent about 8000 points for all of Gondor quest packs, a stately house in Belfalas Housing neighborhood, and Mordor back in the day? That is a lot of points. I had to save every ounce I had going up to level 95 by doing all the deeds with two characters just to get that amount when returning to the game after a 3-year hiatus.

    - VIP Features. Going into premium status, there are some things I lose out on that I have to reacquire. I only have 5 AH slots (per character). I had to buy wardrobe slots since I lost my 20 from VIP status. I had to buy crafting guild access for each type to continue leveling.

    Now, it is abundantly clear that people don't care about most of this stuff. Some people don't care about outfits or cosmetics. Some people buy expansions when they first release instead of using lotro points after 4 months down the road (Mordor and Minas Morgul both cost 2495 lotro points). A lot of these don't benefit people who have already maxed out their characters. Others don't mind simply using a Valar toon.

    I remember this kind of discussion when Helm's Deep released. There were no instances. They added the Big Battle system where people of all levels could join in. It was the first time you couldn't do the Epic without the expansion. The 4295LP price tag is still controversial, now that we have the previous expansions broken down between quests and instances. I would like to see how these "missions" are utilized. Maybe they are skirmishes like Raiding Party from Minas Morgul? Maybe its a tug-of-war? Maybe you can earn tokens for a bunch of new stuff? I waited for both recent expansions to be offered for lotro points (and missed out on those lovely Mordor Ash Farms). I can do the same for this one.
    Thanks for listing these all in one place. There are certainly benefits to being VIP, but other than PvMP and the monthly TP, these are all QoL things.

    Does that make it worthless? Certainly not. But as Morelian said, if being VIP is all about QoL rather than providing access to new content, then it changes the nature of the offering significantly.

    My bottom line is that I don't play that often anymore, but I subscribe to get access to content. If the VIP subscription doesn't offer this, I'll have to think again. QoL is nice, but not what really matters to me.
    - Taravan, R12 Captain - Tirian, Tanking Guardian - Telperon, Completionist LM -
    - Afranius, R9 WL - Tolobain, R7 Weaver - Vargan, R6 Stalker -

    Ex-Leader of Lost Realm of Imladris - Evernight - Co-Founder of Beauty and the Beasts

  7. #7
    Please, let me know if you find a game that provides regular content updates for free or as part of a subscription, mandatory or optional. It's not on my radar.
    “ädvëntürës ärë nöt äll pönÿ-rïdës ïn mäÿ-sünshïnë.”

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by WeirdJedi View Post
    I always like to see the perspective someone wondering why they should remain VIP. As a non-VIP, I can see all the things that I wish I had:

    ...Long list of cool stuff...
    Yep, that's worth $100 / year to me.

    Plus having access to all quests everywhere ...no buying "quest packs"...in earlier areas.
    Last edited by Occum; Sep 12 2020 at 07:05 PM.

  9. #9
    While I am concerned as well for similar reasons, I think its probably best to hold-out judgment for a week and see if its as bleak as it looks. So long as they put it up on BR next week, we'll learn a ton more details and what's what. So far we have some teaser communications, short clips flying over landscape, and a couple of screenshots.

    I want to actually play through a mission on BR to see if this is that similar to a normal quest-pack with extra charge or not, climb through every crevice, and see what this amounts to. *shrugs shoulders*

    Minas Morgul was already a glorified quest-pack. When I compare the size of Imlad Morgul / Rath Duath with the size of Gorgoroth and factor-in the size of SA Dor Amarth, I basically find its about 1/3rd the size of Gorgoroth's content, and that was billed as a full expansion. That already shocked me. On the other hand, it helped that Minas Tirith Midsummer was for no extra charge, so that was something at least. But still... At best, MM was the size of Siege of Mirkwood's expansion.
    Landrovel Player; I am Phantion on the forums only and do not have a corresponding avatar in-game with that name on any server. Cheers! :)

    .

  10. #10
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    Jun 2017
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    2,011
    Quote Originally Posted by Morellian View Post
    This comparison is going to be more valuable when we know more about what exactly is being offered with this expansion, but I have to say right now this is not looking good at all. SoM offered more content for the same base price, without bloated price tags for "better editions", and it's also worth noting that the server issues are still not fixed, I have never come across another online game in my life with server problems this bad. How can you ask people to pay up for content that you can't even guarantee they'll be able to play properly?

    One last point. Apparently we are still getting a full Gundabad expansion next year. In the livestream, Cordovan pointed out that the "three peaks" in this expansion's title refer to Gundabad. Can we get some more information from SSG about how they are going to create two fully fledged expansions, each with a suitable amount of content, their own separate regions to explore, instance clusters, and more, all out of just one mountain that really is a minor location in Tolkien's work? How is this not just releasing the same expansion twice?

    I hope that everyone who has paid for SSG expansions in the past takes some time to consider these questions before shelling out for this one.
    Firstly, Cordovan was hardly going to show-off or mention every detail about the upcoming new areas - to my understanding, it's 2 quest areas, with missions instead of quests, missions we've been told comprise 2-3 quests, so this means we're looking at around 200 quests, which, is decently sized.

    Secondly, as far as the business model has been going for the past several years, we get a "paid" update in one half of the year, and a second "VIP" update in the other half of the year, this model has only been broken a few times, for example at 120, 105, and 100. So this is consistent with their business-content model.

    Moria Expac (60), Lothlorien VIP (60)
    Mirkwood Expac (65), Enedwaith VIP (65)
    Isengard Expac (75), Great River VIP (75)
    Eastern Rohan Expac (85), Wildermore VIP (85)
    Western Rohan Expac (95), Flooded Osgiliath / Entwood VIP (95)
    100-105 was all VIP so I guess people got used to VIP updates and less expansion paid updates.
    Mordor Expac (115), Northern Strongholds VIP (115)
    Again, 120 did also break this mould.
    Minas Morgul Expac (130), Wells of Langflood VIP (130), War of the Three Peaks Expac (130), the only difference being this time, is there is no level cap increase.

    So I really fail to understand actually the point of the thread title, because as VIPs we have always gotten at least one half of the content update each year as part of the Subscription, sure, it's the smaller part, but that's why Expansions are priced much higher, because they deliver MORE content, and 20$ is hardly unreasonable either.

    Thirdly, LOTRO has never had trouble making A LOT of content out of very small bits of information and not very much to go on - Ered Mithrin as just one example, an entire level-cap and story around something that was perhaps name-dropped in Tolkien's work.

    Fourth, LOTRO very rarely fails to deliver in its landscape content and design (if we ignore Rohan and Gondor, but that's a personal gripe), I am always continually impressed with the scale of what we get, lest you forget content and expansions are generally continuously released every 4-6months without fail, Minas Morgul came around 5 months after the Vales of Anduin, what makes you think they won't be able to deliver to the standard they have always done?

    Finally, I'm GLAD there is no new level cap increase, personally, I don't think there should have been one with Minas Morgul either, all continued level cap increases do is create dead content, which means less content for us to play which means we get bored much more quickly because we're playing the same thing over and over, we need a constant variety, and if they choose not to scale the content the have released post-100 we are constantly stuck with whatever amount of content they can release in one or two content updates, which isn't enough to keep people interested.

    I'm happy to pay 20$ for just a raid and a 6-man at the same level cap, truth be told.
    Last edited by Hephburz-2; Sep 12 2020 at 07:25 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by NeebPlayer View Post
    Please, let me know if you find a game that provides regular content updates for free or as part of a subscription, mandatory or optional. It's not on my radar.
    You serious ???

    WoW comes out with multiple raids throughout one expansion

    And new zones...

    And new gear


    All after you buy the expansion at launch you dont have to pay again... Other than monthly subscription (vip equivalent same price)

    And constant class rebalancing... actual class balance yea that’s thing.

    Not sure where you are going with this argument you must only play lotro...

    Might wanna try new things instead of this dead trash game

    Dwarrowdelf: R12 Warden Jak\ R8 Minstrell Amoxx\ R10 Runekeeper Smellslike\ R9 reaver Martiall\ R10 Defiler Tussin-1
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeebPlayer View Post
    Please, let me know if you find a game that provides regular content updates for free or as part of a subscription, mandatory or optional. It's not on my radar.
    Sure, happy to. Just off the top of my head:

    • Elder Scrolls Online (all DLC free with subscription)
    • Black Desert Online (all expansions free with base game purchase)
    • Star Wars: The Old Republic (all current expansions free forever with one-month subscription, future expansions free for current subscribers)
    • Minecraft (all updates free)
    • Grand Theft Auto V (all updates free)
    • Warframe (all expansions free)


    FFXIV and ESO also include all previous expansions when you purchase the most recent one, and WOW includes all previous expansions in its subscription. Most of the above games are comparable to LOTRO and comprise a large proportion of the MMO player base.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeebPlayer View Post
    Please, let me know if you find a game that provides regular content updates for free or as part of a subscription, mandatory or optional. It's not on my radar.
    Guild Wars 2. No subscription.

    When you buy the latest expansion (path of fire) you get the previous expansion (heart of thorns) for free. Goes on sale frequently.

    The current living world update is free to anyone who logs in while that episode is current. Previous episodes/seasons are available for purchase via the in-game gemstore. Gems can be bought for in-game gold, and are also awarded at specific achievement point milestones.

    The game is still in active development and recently announced their next expansion which will be available in 2021.
    “All that is gold does not glitter,
    Not all those who wander are lost;
    The old that is strong does not wither,
    Deep roots are not reached by the frost."

  14. #14
    3 peaks should be an update attached to MM expansion
    it should come online for free along what what ever goodies is giving in expensive packs!!!
    SSG diging again in our pockets!!!
    mini expansion...... what a lol after a summer of not able to play and giving back garbage for our time lost.........
    what a joke ..........
    lotr enthousiast since 1996, over 12 years lotro player, lifetimer, Loyal member of the Spartans Kinship and Subleader, now in Evernight imigrants from Eldar

  15. #15
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    Nov 2012
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    15,083
    "Missions"

    People making out like these are some shiny new concept, when all they are is glorified wrappers. 2 or 3 quests grouped up with a new label attached, that can be played by all levels. We get this at festivals five times a year, and also in EB's.

    "Boar mounts"

    I'll be very surprised if these are anywhere but the top packs. Anything that people have been asking for for years, will automatically be placed in the most lucrative position. Walked into Mordor anyone? Probably a good thing that they don't interest me.

    I'm very buyer beware since the hidden costs involved in Rohan housing, and will be all over this on BR, searching everywhere before considering a purchase. If I do make a purchase, it will just be the base because . . . .

    Over the last 6 months in this game, I've been shown categorically, there are much higher advantages to being a free to play player.
    Sometimes, no matter how hard you look, there is no best light.


  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeebPlayer View Post
    Please, let me know if you find a game that provides regular content updates for free or as part of a subscription, mandatory or optional. It's not on my radar.
    Star Trek Online

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Firstly, Cordovan was hardly going to show-off or mention every detail about the upcoming new areas - to my understanding, it's 2 quest areas, with missions instead of quests, missions we've been told comprise 2-3 quests, so this means we're looking at around 200 quests, which, is decently sized.
    I definitely agree that we need to wait to get more information before we make a final judgement. I think all I, like the OP and others, are doing is raising our concerns now.

    Where did you get the info about two different quest areas? I might have missed that part of the live stream.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Secondly, as far as the business model has been going for the past several years, we get a "paid" update in one half of the year, and a second "VIP" update in the other half of the year, this model has only been broken a few times, for example at 120, 105, and 100. So this is consistent with their business-content model.

    ....

    So I really fail to understand actually the point of the thread title, because as VIPs we have always gotten at least one half of the content update each year as part of the Subscription, sure, it's the smaller part, but that's why Expansions are priced much higher, because they deliver MORE content, and 20$ is hardly unreasonable either.
    I'm not sure I agree about this pattern of paid vs. free updates, it seems rather more haphazard than you are describing, but again, we are just raising our concerns that the model seems to be shifting significantly from previous years (certainly as long as I've been playing). If the next update after WoTP is free for VIPs, and there continue to be quest packs available with VIP in the future, then that's less of a concern. If there are no more quest packs, only expansions released on a ~yearly basis, with a large chunk of content, that everyone needs to purchase, then that's less of a concern too. What is a concern is that the previous pattern of a few quest packs a year (and expansions every couple years) will continue, but with all the quest packs rebranded as "mini-expansions" and also requiring subscribers to purchase.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Thirdly, LOTRO has never had trouble making A LOT of content out of very small bits of information and not very much to go on - Ered Mithrin as just one example, an entire level-cap and story around something that was perhaps name-dropped in Tolkien's work.
    I don't have any problem with lots of content taking place in obscure parts of Middle-Earth, that's not my point at all. My concern is making two whole expansions centred on the exact same place (not even two different regions in the same realm, like the Rohan and Mordor expansions), and a small place at that. Are we gonna have one Gundabad expansion that's only the top half of the mountain, and one that's only the bottom half?



    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Fourth, LOTRO very rarely fails to deliver in its landscape content and design (if we ignore Rohan and Gondor, but that's a personal gripe), I am always continually impressed with the scale of what we get, lest you forget content and expansions are generally continuously released every 4-6months without fail, Minas Morgul came around 5 months after the Vales of Anduin, what makes you think they won't be able to deliver to the standard they have always done?
    Well, Rohan and Gondor are pretty massive chunks of the game lol. But anyway, I agree that landscape design is one of LOTRO's strengths. The quality of those rapid content updates? Not so much. The landscape designers do the best with what they have but the amount of recycled assets, zones that feel identical to each other (Vales and Wells being the worst offenders), and relentless focus on releasing new areas as fast as possible instead of slowing down to focus on quality is beginning to grate with a lot of people, to put it mildly.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Finally, I'm GLAD there is no new level cap increase, personally, I don't think there should have been one with Minas Morgul either, all continued level cap increases do is create dead content, which means less content for us to play which means we get bored much more quickly because we're playing the same thing over and over, we need a constant variety, and if they choose not to scale the content the have released post-100 we are constantly stuck with whatever amount of content they can release in one or two content updates, which isn't enough to keep people interested.

    I'm happy to pay 20$ for just a raid and a 6-man at the same level cap, truth be told.
    I'm also happy there's no level cap increase, the pace of content becoming obsolete is honestly really sad. So much instance content in particular is just abandoned after a few months, or sometimes even weeks, when the new raid/update/level cap increase comes out. This is, IMO, partially the fault of a badly designed endgame system, but I don't really see how adding more level 130 content (presumably with even more stat bloat, as if the rewards were identical to MM no one would bother running it), is really going to fix the issue.


    At the end of the day some people will be perfectly happy with purchasing this expansion whilst continuing to pay VIP, and that's fine. My worry is that an increasing number of people will not be happy with this, especially if the trend continues. If less and less people are willing to pay VIP, that can't be good for SSG and therefore for the game.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Tirian-Hammerfist View Post
    I remain a VIP. However, this latest announcement has got my questioning the common sense behind this.

    You're not alone. Many of us are.

    No matter how hard some are trying to defend SSG on this latest grab, it is definitely another rug pulled out-from-under VIPs.

    And especially after everything that's happened in the last few months, subscribers who stuck with this game deserve better. MUCH better.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    2,011
    Quote Originally Posted by Morellian View Post
    Where did you get the info about two different quest areas? I might have missed that part of the live stream.
    Leaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Morellian View Post
    I'm not sure I agree about this pattern of paid vs. free updates, it seems rather more haphazard than you are describing, but again, we are just raising our concerns that the model seems to be shifting significantly from previous years (certainly as long as I've been playing). If the next update after WoTP is free for VIPs, and there continue to be quest packs available with VIP in the future, then that's less of a concern. If there are no more quest packs, only expansions released on a ~yearly basis, with a large chunk of content, that everyone needs to purchase, then that's less of a concern too. What is a concern is that the previous pattern of a few quest packs a year (and expansions every couple years) will continue, but with all the quest packs rebranded as "mini-expansions" and also requiring subscribers to purchase.
    Again. As I explained and listed in my above post, the only time they have deviated from this business model is between 100-105 and 120, all other quest zones / expansions were released as we are seeing now, this is their standard business model. Gondor was an enigma in which we didn't have any expansions but that is not their standard approach, and Ered Mithrin was just weird (it should have been an expansion tbh), but all other content has been released as such, an expansion followed by a free VIP follow-up, on repeat, as we saw throughout the entire of 60-95 redone again at 115 and 130 and I believe as such it will continue like this for now

    Quote Originally Posted by Morellian View Post
    I don't have any problem with lots of content taking place in obscure parts of Middle-Earth, that's not my point at all. My concern is making two whole expansions centred on the exact same place (not even two different regions in the same realm, like the Rohan and Mordor expansions), and a small place at that. Are we gonna have one Gundabad expansion that's only the top half of the mountain, and one that's only the bottom half?
    These two new zones we are getting are, to my knowledge the outer-areas leading towards Gundabad, and not Gundabad itself, that will come next year, so that isn't an issue or a concern.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    122
    The point is for the perks, and I guess quest packs? To tell the truth, I don't pay attention past the perks. (the new VIP daily perks are crazy awesome)

    I find it so odd that gamers call things like this a "cash grab" ..as if it is an insult. All businesses want cash! lol Of course they want to grab it!

    Businesses DO need to make money. They cannot give everything away for free. They entice, they offer sales, they do what they can to get you to spend money. If customers stop buying, they go out of business. Someone needs to pay. SSG gives much of the game away for free for those who want to play that way..those who are VIP keep the doors open.

    I'm happy to pay for new content, perks, special housing, etc. I love playing this game, and want it to keep developing...I like to do my part to ensure Lotro keeps rolling.

    tl;dr - the point of VIP and paid content is to keep the game alive for everyone. That's good enough for me.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    573
    I'll wait to reserve full judgement until we know a bit more than we do now about this mini expansion, but I'm definitely starting to hesitate on being VIP. This is despite the fact that I've only ever played this game as a VIP. I feel like most of the months I've paid for VIP this year have just been almost like money thrown down the drain. I don't have to walk into town as much now, and I have a few more LOTRO points, but that's about it. At the very least I'm going to stop subbing for more than one month at a time now, probably.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by MerryCav View Post
    Businesses DO need to make money. They cannot give everything away for free. They entice, they offer sales, they do what they can to get you to spend money. If customers stop buying, they go out of business. Someone needs to pay.

    Did you even bother to read the title of this thread?

    By definition, VIPs are ALREADY PAYING each and every month! That's what it means to have a "subscription".

    And since you've for some reason decided to share the beyond obvious fact that "businesses do need to make money", why does it make sense to drive away customers that ARE ALREADY PAYING EACH-AND-EVERY MONTH by changing the rules to shrink the already questionable benefits they're getting for their payment?

    For the past two months, there have been constant discussions among loyal long-time Subscribers wondering, "Why should I bother to still stay VIP?" And now, SSG has decided to give all these customers yet another reason to NOT continue subscribing!

    How much sense does that make?

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    2,506
    Quote Originally Posted by Narthalion View Post
    For the past two months, there have been constant discussions among loyal long-time Subscribers wondering, "Why should I bother to still stay VIP?" And now, SSG has decided to give all these customers yet another reason to NOT continue subscribing!

    How much sense does that make?
    It can actually make a lot of sense. SSG has apparently come to the conclusion that selling expansions bring in more money than subscriptions do - so they focus more on selling expansions than on giving people reasons to subscribe.
    Part of the whole trend of making games "f2p" and then selling stuff, rather than having purely subscription-based games.

  24. #24
    I suggested juicing the new release with an xp item 130
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...se-of-new-area

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Jakreal View Post
    You serious ???

    WoW comes out with multiple raids throughout one expansion

    And new zones...

    And new gear


    All after you buy the expansion at launch you dont have to pay again... Other than monthly subscription (vip equivalent same price)

    And constant class rebalancing... actual class balance yea that’s thing.

    Not sure where you are going with this argument you must only play lotro...

    Might wanna try new things instead of this dead trash game
    First and foremost, go back to WoW!

    Secondly, what do you mean AFTER you buy the expansion? So millions of players pay a mandatory sub plus they have to buy the expansion? Seems very comparable to LotRO...
    “ädvëntürës ärë nöt äll pönÿ-rïdës ïn mäÿ-sünshïnë.”

 

 
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