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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    36

    Stating the obvious is NOT "Keeping us updated"

    I have loved and supported this game since it launched. I have talked countless friends that never would have played it otherwise into playing it and many of them have now been playing it for years. I understand that from the host company's perspective it is a business and that's why I never had qualms about spending real money for my account and additionally for fun things from the LOTRO store.

    I understand that the people running this game are human, and everyone occasionally runs into problems and everyone makes mistakes. I can easily forgive and forget all that, even if it means weeks or months when this game is unavailable.

    Even though I've never met any of them, I always assumed I liked the people running this game (they chose to surround themselves with Tolkieny stuff every day...how could you not like them?).

    That being said, I also believe that what defines people (and businesses made up of people) are not the mistakes they make or problems they have, but rather, how they deal with those mistakes/problems when they occur.

    A lot of people in this forum keep saying things about Standing Stone Games like "I'm sure they are working hard", and "I'm sure they're doing their best", and "they're doing everything they can". I would have liked to believe those things too, and did right up until this morning when I realized that we've actually been flat out, plain and simply being lied to for several days. So I don't know if I believe those things or not.

    For over a week now the message from SSG on my LOTRO login page has said "WE WILL KEEP YOU UPDATED". That has been a 100% false statement. Telling us (usually after the fact) that the "worlds are down" or "worlds will be brought down", and saying it's for "maintenance" is not informing anyone of anything, and it's become in my eyes a series of knowingly false statements.

    Finally, and perhaps foremost in my mind lately has been sympathy for the fact that these problems are occurring just as the developers released a veritable masterpiece of new content that I am very sure many people put a tremendous amount of effort into. I've been a Tolkien fan my whole life, and can tell when content is created by true fellow fans of the genre, and I can think of no greater compliment than to acknowledge that new content has obviously been created by people who love Tolkien and his creations. And, I say that after having finished (in spite of the issues with the game being down) ALL the new quests, including the 20 day "final" wrapper quest.

    But instead of the triumph that it should be, this whole thing is turning sour. As for me, it's not because of the problems, or the fact that the game was down, but because the people in charge have decided to treat me and everyone else that supports them with disrespect by keeping all of us in the dark.

    I don't want a cookie, I don't want a glass of milk. What I do want is a little bit of information about what's going on (so I can make a decision about keeping my support here, or moving it somewhere else). And finally, I don't like being lied to.

  2. #2
    White Knight, lol, hadn't heard that used in several years! I gotta visit the forum more often, this is pretty entertaining.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    489
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazzlohollyfeld View Post
    For over a week now the message from SSG on my LOTRO login page has said "WE WILL KEEP YOU UPDATED". That has been a 100% false statement. Telling us (usually after the fact) that the "worlds are down" or "worlds will be brought down", and saying it's for "maintenance" is not informing anyone of anything, and it's become in my eyes a series of knowingly false statements.
    A genuinely interesting perspective. I don't say that with malice or sarcasm, I can understand and appreciate the sentiment.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    15,083
    They haven't lied to anyone.

    They said they would keep us updated and they have.

    They've told us which worlds have been down and when.
    They've told us they are working with their service provider and a hardware issue.
    They told us when they took all worlds down.
    They told us they would be down over night.
    They have promised to tell us when they will be back up again.
    They have said that they are making progress.

    Expect the next update soon, but it will likely be similar if they still haven''t solved the issue. Keep in mind that they are not solely in control as far as the servers go. They rent that service, so the provider is in the mix. Perhaps this may encourage them to seek a different provider a little later down the line, perhaps not. If depends on what the problem is and what the hold up is.

    We haven't had any specifics, but that could be for a number of reasons. They may not legally be allowed to say something. They may be waiting for info from their provider so that they can confirm something. They may not yet know what the problem is if the provider hasn't notified them of it. But they never promised us any of that info to begin with, so it's not as if they've gone back on their word or anything.

    I'd rather hear what we're hearing than have a guessed uptime date/time, which then has to be extended.
    Sometimes, no matter how hard you look, there is no best light.


  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    489
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    They haven't lied to anyone.
    Such black and white thinking.

    The OP is saying that SSG aren't informing us of anything we can't reveal ourselves. That being "updated" in such a situation, isn't really being updated at all. It's a valid assessment, even if you disagree, and it isn't so far removed from the concept of the illusion of choice.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    They've told us which worlds have been down and when.
    They've told us they are working with their service provider and a hardware issue.
    They told us when they took all worlds down.
    They told us they would be down over night.
    They have promised to tell us when they will be back up again.
    They have said that they are making progress.
    cmon, you cant be that naive... all your points listed are the usual blabla, just say something to try to calm people like you...

    the fact that you are trying so hard to defend this on so many topics in this forum... is pretty sad

    i mean in your perspective: "They have promised to tell us when they will be back up again." is keeping players updated for you... are you for real?? lol
    Hecki Hecki Pateng ~ Soldurii ~ Thelyn Ennor ~ Bandit0s // Vanyar & Gwaihir (EU-DE)

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    They haven't lied to anyone.

    They said they would keep us updated and they have.

    They've told us which worlds have been down and when.
    They've told us they are working with their service provider and a hardware issue.
    They told us when they took all worlds down.
    They told us they would be down over night.
    They have promised to tell us when they will be back up again.
    They have said that they are making progress.

    Expect the next update soon, but it will likely be similar if they still haven''t solved the issue. Keep in mind that they are not solely in control as far as the servers go. They rent that service, so the provider is in the mix. Perhaps this may encourage them to seek a different provider a little later down the line, perhaps not. If depends on what the problem is and what the hold up is.

    We haven't had any specifics, but that could be for a number of reasons. They may not legally be allowed to say something. They may be waiting for info from their provider so that they can confirm something. They may not yet know what the problem is if the provider hasn't notified them of it. But they never promised us any of that info to begin with, so it's not as if they've gone back on their word or anything.

    I'd rather hear what we're hearing than have a guessed uptime date/time, which then has to be extended.
    This may be the most reasonable post on the topic yet.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    15,083
    Quote Originally Posted by Sovereign50 View Post
    Such black and white thinking. The OP is saying that SSG aren't informing us of anything we can't reveal ourselves. That being "updated" in such a situation, isn't really being updated at all. It's a valid assessment, even if you disagree, and it's isn't so far removed from the concept of the illusion of choice.
    Not giving specifics is not lying. They didn't promise updates on specific elements of the problem, they just said they would let us know when "worlds would be back up", and they've done that. NO lies happening.You may think I have black and white thinking, and so be it, but for me, saying that they are not giving the information that one wants and saying they are lying when they are not has a very clear line down the middle.
    Last edited by Arnenna; Jul 23 2020 at 12:11 PM.
    Sometimes, no matter how hard you look, there is no best light.


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    6,070
    What exactly do you consider "Updated"? I mean if there is one thing clear about this all is that the problems are big enough to not be able to give us an exact ETA, so if that is what you wanted.... you're not going to get it. It's also a lot worse than what they have done so far. This isn't a patch, this is a serious problem.... so if they were to give time/date ETA's every day, and then just push them forward.... I bet a lot more people would be screaming with sentences that start with: "But you promised...."

    Some information would be nice, such as "New replacement hardware has arrived today, and our engineers are travelling to the data center to install it". That would be the kind if updates that I would like to see in all of this.... but Arnenna has a point: Although a little infrequent, they have given us basic updates.

    So here's my question, with "keeping us updated", what type of information would you like to hear?

    - Technical? (We're doing this, and that is the technical reason we are doing it, etc)
    - Timelines? (We've now completed roughly one-third of the work, we're sending our engineers home for the night to get some sleep and we hope to make progress tomorrow)
    - An actual ETA? (We promise the servers will be up around Noon EDT today!)
    - A plan? (We have ordered new hardware, and we have a documented approach on how to reconnect each component, etc)
    - Frequent Mundane updates? (Engineers have now unpacked the new server boxes. (2 hours later) The engineers are now racking new hardware. (2 hours later) The engineers are now having lunch.)
    Moved from Riddermark to Arkenstone on 9/29/2015!
    -----
    Disclaimer: The definition of "Soon™" and "In The Near Future™" is based solely on SSG's interpretation of the words, and all similarities with dictionary definitions of the word "Soon™", "Near", and "Future" are purely coincidental and should not be interpreted as a time frame that will come to pass within a reasonable amount of time.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
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    15,083
    Quote Originally Posted by Zariliv92 View Post
    cmon, you cant be that naive... all your points listed are the usual blabla, just say something to try to calm people like you...

    the fact that you are trying so hard to defend this on so many topics in this forum... is pretty sad

    i mean in your perspective: "They have promised to tell us when they will be back up again." is keeping players updated for you... are you for real?? lol
    People like me are already calm and we're not busting a gut over not being able to log in for a week. We're not worried about lost VIP time or event/schedule end dates either, because we've already been informed by SSG that they will reshuffle and address all that.

    Pretty sad for who? I'll defend what I think is fair and against what I think is unfair. And yes, that's for real. If you don't like it, there is a perfectly good ignore feature on the forums. Use it.
    Sometimes, no matter how hard you look, there is no best light.


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    157
    If there's one thing the complaint threads have demonstrated, it's that some people *do* need the obvious stated -- over and over -- because they just aren't getting it.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Zariliv92 View Post
    cmon, you cant be that naive... all your points listed are the usual blabla, just say something to try to calm people like you...

    the fact that you are trying so hard to defend this on so many topics in this forum... is pretty sad

    i mean in your perspective: "They have promised to tell us when they will be back up again." is keeping players updated for you... are you for real?? lol
    It's only "blabla" because you keep putting your hands over your virtual ears and ignoring the logic contained in Arnenna's post. The paragraph right after the part you highlighted contains some valuable information that may be playing a significant role in this situation.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by maartena View Post
    What exactly do you consider "Updated"? I mean if there is one thing clear about this all is that the problems are big enough to not be able to give us an exact ETA, so if that is what you wanted.... you're not going to get it. It's also a lot worse than what they have done so far. This isn't a patch, this is a serious problem.... so if they were to give time/date ETA's every day, and then just push them forward.... I bet a lot more people would be screaming with sentences that start with: "But you promised...."

    Some information would be nice, such as "New replacement hardware has arrived today, and our engineers are travelling to the data center to install it". That would be the kind if updates that I would like to see in all of this.... but Arnenna has a point: Although a little infrequent, they have given us basic updates.

    So here's my question, with "keeping us updated", what type of information would you like to hear?

    - Technical? (We're doing this, and that is the technical reason we are doing it, etc)
    - Timelines? (We've now completed roughly one-third of the work, we're sending our engineers home for the night to get some sleep and we hope to make progress tomorrow)
    - An actual ETA? (We promise the servers will be up around Noon EDT today!)
    - A plan? (We have ordered new hardware, and we have a documented approach on how to reconnect each component, etc)
    - Frequent Mundane updates? (Engineers have now unpacked the new server boxes. (2 hours later) The engineers are now racking new hardware. (2 hours later) The engineers are now having lunch.)
    THIS

    The majority of the people complaining about "frequency or quality of information" clearly don't have a single clue about data centres and software. The myriads of possible issues that come with it and how difficult it is to finally find the culprit. Please stop, you are making a fool of yourself.
    **Lifetime VIP Player** (since 2007)
    Hope dies last, but it dies.

  14. #14

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    People like me are already calm and we're not busting a gut over not being able to log in for a week. We're not worried about lost VIP time or event/schedule end dates either, because we've already been informed by SSG that they will reshuffle and address all that.

    Pretty sad for who? I'll defend what I think is fair and against what I think is unfair. And yes, that's for real. If you don't like it, there is a perfectly good ignore feature on the forums. Use it.
    No, You're so calm, cool, and collected, you need to respond to every single post that shows concern, or dissent, by telling everyone how wrong they are.

    Yeah, You're good.
    Cheesiepoofs Bane of Vilya

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by padraxus View Post
    THIS

    The majority of the people complaining about "frequency or quality of information" clearly don't have a single clue about data centres and software. The myriads of possible issues that come with it and how difficult it is to finally find the culprit. Please stop, you are making a fool of yourself.
    I would suggest the White Knights are making fools of themselves...


    Here Ill put it so its easier for you guys lapping up what little bits SSG are tossing, translated for reality:


    "We at SSG have no idea whats wrong, No idea how to fix it, but well keep blowing smoke so you dont all cancel your subs and put us out of a job"...followed of course by: "Were taking all the servers down....because we dont have a choice...and our F2P players are screaming that the Pay servers are still up, so they might stop buying overpriced digital goods when we can maybe, sometime...SOON...actually figure out what we screwed up in the first place"...followed by "Well get the servers up maybe...not sure...but still trying to figure out a way to milk the playerbase"....

    Did I miss any?

  17. #17
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    489
    Quote Originally Posted by maartena View Post
    - Technical? (We're doing this, and that is the technical reason we are doing it, etc)
    - Timelines? (We've now completed roughly one-third of the work, we're sending our engineers home for the night to get some sleep and we hope to make progress tomorrow)
    - An actual ETA? (We promise the servers will be up around Noon EDT today!)
    - A plan? (We have ordered new hardware, and we have a documented approach on how to reconnect each component, etc)
    - Frequent Mundane updates? (Engineers have now unpacked the new server boxes. (2 hours later) The engineers are now racking new hardware. (2 hours later) The engineers are now having lunch.)
    Or, something simpler?

    - Sympathy / Empathy (+Cordovan: We understand that the extended downtime has impacted our playerbase in different ways. Rest assured, we are listening. We're gamers too, and we know what it's like to look forward to something that is out of reach due to unforeseen issues. Unfortunately, our technical team is still troubleshooting the issues, and while we can provide no firm answer on when the servers will return, or whether they will even be stable, we have all hands on deck attending to the issue.)

    Of course, this is an idyllic response, a personalised forum reply that doesn't make grandiose promises that players can and will hold to ransom. Customer Service that nurtures the forums like a caretaker, tending to the ground in a way that a prevents a wellspring of weeds from needlessly propagating. You'd be amazed how well this can work even in the absence of every single point you posted, despite not having any real substance. People like to be heard, especially by those that can actually do something, even if those people can't actually do anything about the situation.

  18. #18
    When any of our systems run into problems and we have to take them offline, we pretty much tell users what SSG has as far as keeping them informed. We'll give them advance notice that the system is coming down, an expected availability time (sometimes this is possible, sometimes it is not) and an announcement when it is back up. We do not communicate with users about the technical aspects of the problem. It's not like any of our users are going to want to, our are qualified to, get in contact with our DBAs, network admins or systems engineers, and say, 'have you tried this?' Although, I suspect that if SSG were to share the technical aspects of the problems, many of the users here would jump at the chance to do so.
    Last edited by Nouri; Jul 23 2020 at 11:06 AM.
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  19. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
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    15,083
    Quote Originally Posted by Seglord View Post
    No, You're so calm, cool, and collected, you need to respond to every single post that shows concern, or dissent, by telling everyone how wrong they are.

    Yeah, You're good.
    It's quite simple really. I don't like misinformation. If no lies are told, no lies are told, and I respond no more frequently than you do on your side of it. I'm calm - about the downtime (even though I really would like to see the servers back up, especially as I have a week off work starting tomorrow), not so much the crazy stuff going down on the forum over it, and especially the black speech.

    Now, do you have anything to add to the actual debate? Or do you just want to debate the posters?
    Sometimes, no matter how hard you look, there is no best light.


  20. #20
    I found the first post in this thread well written and obviously from the heart by someone who has played the game from the start however pretty much straight away it is drowned out by a vocal few and one in particular who constantly states that anyone who raises issues are both fools and receiving full and regular information on what is going on.

    If the issues of the last week+ and the lack of communication from Ssg weren't enough to do it you seem to be determined to drive people away by belittling people and your claims that all is well. Can you reign it in a bit, given the situation people should be able to raise their concerns without being attacked in this manner.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    489
    Edit: Removed for goodwill. My reply was a response to an acknowledged error.
    Last edited by Sovereign50; Jul 23 2020 at 12:17 PM.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    15,083
    Quote Originally Posted by Seregnole View Post
    I would suggest the White Knights are making fools of themselves...


    Here Ill put it so its easier for you guys lapping up what little bits SSG are tossing, translated for reality:


    "We at SSG have no idea whats wrong, No idea how to fix it, but well keep blowing smoke so you dont all cancel your subs and put us out of a job"...followed of course by: "Were taking all the servers down....because we dont have a choice...and our F2P players are screaming that the Pay servers are still up, so they might stop buying overpriced digital goods when we can maybe, sometime...SOON...actually figure out what we screwed up in the first place"...followed by "Well get the servers up maybe...not sure...but still trying to figure out a way to milk the playerbase"....

    Did I miss any?
    Yes, you did. The sky is falling, hell is raining fire on us, we are all doomed. For someone with such a flat and poor opinion of the game company, you sure are in a hurry to get back into the game or find out when you can get back into the game. I'll come back to this post when the game worlds are back up and running smoothly, and reflect
    Sometimes, no matter how hard you look, there is no best light.


  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by maartena View Post

    So here's my question, with "keeping us updated", what type of information would you like to hear?

    - Technical? (We're doing this, and that is the technical reason we are doing it, etc)
    - Timelines? (We've now completed roughly one-third of the work, we're sending our engineers home for the night to get some sleep and we hope to make progress tomorrow)
    - An actual ETA? (We promise the servers will be up around Noon EDT today!)
    - A plan? (We have ordered new hardware, and we have a documented approach on how to reconnect each component, etc)
    - Frequent Mundane updates? (Engineers have now unpacked the new server boxes. (2 hours later) The engineers are now racking new hardware. (2 hours later) The engineers are now having lunch.)
    Honest answer, all of these, each & every one.
    Plus confirmation that they will extend subs, are working on a "consolation" gift, etc.
    I'd love to see this company get a grip of the situation and run the narrative, silence some of the usual grinchy mouths.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    It's quite simple really. I don't like misinformation. If no lies are told, no lies are told, and I respond no more frequently than you do on your side of it. I'm calm - about the downtime (even though I really would like to see the servers back up, especially as I have a week off work starting tomorrow), not so much the crazy stuff going down on the forum over it, and especially the black speech.

    Now, do you have anything to add to the actual debate? Or do you just want to debate the posters?
    Debate? This is no debate. You're just pooping on people who are venting.
    Cheesiepoofs Bane of Vilya

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    we're not busting a gut over not being able to log in for a week. We're not worried about lost VIP time or event/schedule end dates either, because we've already been informed by SSG that they will reshuffle and address all that.
    thats good for you, that you dont care about the money you have spent and therefore have lost, that must be an amazing feeling to not give a single ####....

    most of the people dont like money being thrown out of the window...
    Hecki Hecki Pateng ~ Soldurii ~ Thelyn Ennor ~ Bandit0s // Vanyar & Gwaihir (EU-DE)

 

 
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