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  1. #176
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    We need immense more figths vs 10+ foes and not just trash, bossfights too.

  2. #177
    I finished all new 6 mans now as a champ and the only situation i felt really useful were when i removed corruptions from morloth.

  3. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldifrith View Post
    I finished all new 6 mans now as a champ and the only situation i felt really useful were when i removed corruptions from morloth.
    Tonight i finish Ghashan also only need Nazguls now,i will do after Thursdays reset probably.We are useful and i dont say that often since Mordor.We can remove corruptions, we can interrupt inductions,we can offer at least some support with rend,we can make some decent AOE and even ST with proper group setup and support.The instances are good for champions,the problem is that the others are stronger and can do better what we do and more easily.Like i said before,the instances are good for as but perfect for them.A bit attention from developers and then they will equally including as also to the groups.
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  4. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    Tonight i finish Ghashan also only need Nazguls now,i will do after Thursdays reset probably.We are useful and i dont say that often since Mordor.We can remove corruptions, we can interrupt inductions,we can offer at least some support with rend,we can make some decent AOE and even ST with proper group setup and support.The instances are good for champions,the problem is that the others are stronger and can do better what we do and more easily.Like i said before,the instances are good for as but perfect for them.A bit attention from developers and then they will equally including as also to the groups.
    So champs can help the tank to do their job. And makes support.
    And with a for a champ palned group ( a lot support) the can do decent dmg. I guess there is another problem with champs that they need another sort of support as the others dpser do. e.g. hunter, warden, rk give them the raven firedebuff and all are supportet, champs not.
    Champs must get rip off this dependence off support and must be able to do unsupportet decent dps as the others do.

  5. #180
    I haven't had the time to finish Bar Nirnaeth yet (last run a burg bugged the first boss out.)
    I have run Black Lore and Kings though.

    Black Lore is... a colossal pain in the ### for melee of all stripes. My damage was totally outclassed by the groups Burg, but having 6 people in meant that my numbers were a bit better since I had the support of the other 5 fellows.
    The ice puddles are a pain on Nurzum, buts that a tank improperly positioning and group dps being lower than it should be issue. I do feel as though I can contribute, but I also feel as though Warden can contribute more group DPS than I can, and Burg can do what I can do but better. Having corruptions to remove and things to interrupt is good for champs, but bad from a design standpoint until corruption removal is standardized (i.e. hunters can only remove when enemy is sub 50% hp). Same with interrupts.
    Final boss is... just terrible. But I have a feeling thats at least partly due to the friendly ghosts not properly despawning when healed to full and continuing to drops puddles of melee love and friendship all over the room. The pull is physical damage which is very nice as we have a ton of physical mit so we're comparatively sturdier but are often caught in a more dangerous location than the ranged during pulls. Wind-up 10m instakill AoE remains a giant middle finger to all melee classes. Wish they'd get over their hard on for that stupid mechanic and implement variations like donut AoEs or cascading AoEs that aren't solely a giant middle finger to melee dps.

    Kings is pretty easy from what I experienced, but I had a warden, beo & a guardian was shielding me (as I stayed alive longest) so I think that slants my perspective a bit. Outgoing damage from the Nazgul isn't terrible, puddles are well-telegraphed. Targeted AoEs are excellent and allow for active interaction with the mechanic. Interrupts feel meaningful, second target allows for AoE cleave in redline and better yellow damage. Honestly, I just like Kings. I haven't yet experienced getting fearlocked for a minute at a time, thats the same issue as we've got in solo mode on the second boss in black lore this week.
    My only real issue with Kings is that damage wise, Burgs and Wardens simply outclass what I can do. Support wise with Interrupts and Corruption removal I feel closer to parity with Wardens, but I feel completely outmatched by Burgs contributions.

    Edit: Kings puddles are mostly well telegraphed. Final pair before the witch king do a less-than-well telegraphed puddle underneath everyone in the fight which can really screw with the melee if there are more than one or two of us on the bosses.
    Last edited by mrplaneswalker; Jan 28 2020 at 11:38 PM.

  6. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by mrplaneswalker View Post
    Melee also generally have lower tactical mit than ranged classes so fights which have a predominance of tactical damage usually fall into melee unfriendly terms for me as well.
    This is interesting because I think you don't view stats in their entirety but rather pick and choose one and then draw invalid conclusions from it

    Let's examine the TactMit argument for a second:
    Melee classes gain either 4.5 (Captain, Champion, Burglar) or 5 points of morale per vitality, ranged 4 points of morale and 1 point of TactMit
    1 Moonlit Essence of Tact Mitigation is 16983, 1 Moonlit Essence of Vitality is 1605

    If I wanted to get 1 Essence worth of TactMit from Vit as a ranged class I'd need 16983 Vitality, that's 16983/1605=10,58 Vitality Essences = 16983 Vitality
    If I wanted the same TactMit as a melee class I'd have to use 1 essence slot for Tact Mit, so I'd only have 9,58 Vitality Essences = 15378 Vitality

    The 16983 Vitality I'd get as a ranged class would get me 16983x4 = 67932 morale (and 16983 TactMit)
    The 15378 Vitality I'd get as a Champion/Burglar/Captain would get me 15378x4,5 = 69201 morale (and 16983 TactMit)
    The 15378 Vitality I'd get as a Guardian/Beorning/Warden would get me 15378x5 = 76890 (and 16983 TactMit)

    Vitality is already a stronger stat on all melee classes than on ranged classes. For Hunters we can stop right there. All the other stats work exactly the same (3 Mastery/1 Crit per main stat and same benefits from Fate)
    TactMit in fights is needed to balance melee vs Hunters, to make melee invest in TactMit and balance out the free stats (morale) they gain elsewhere

    Now let's look at RKs because their main stat works differently:
    Will gives 3 Mastery/1 Finesse/1 Tact Mit. On paper that looks stronger than Might/Agi, in practice it isn't. The reality is that attacks that pass resistance checks need SIGNIFICANTLY higher finesse to hit than attacks that pass BPE checks (same is true for Wardens). So while RKs technically get 5 points from their main stat as opposed to 4, we currently have around 70k main stat, so that's 70k extra Finesse. BUT you need about 210k Finesse to reach similiar hit % with tactical skills than physical skills do with 140k. So all that extra Finesse gets eaten up by resistance being OP compared to BPE. That's btw also why Warden's need their very powerful stat boosts (>50k Finesse and Mastery) because they too check against resistance and would not reach the same stats as physical classes because they need ridiculous finesse levels
    So if we ignore the Finesse on Will (which gets eaten up completely) that leaves us with 3 Mastery and 1 TactMit. So if a fight features TactMit the RK has a ~70k advantage, that Might and Agi classes need to compensate. BUT the might and agi classes have a 70k crit advantage, that the RK needs to compensate. Without TactMit might and agi classes can run glasscanon builds and enjoy the advantage of free crit from mainstat

    CONCLUSION:
    If a fight features TactMit: Melee = Ranged = Tactical
    If a fight does not feature TactMit: Melee > Ranged > Tactical

    (This is obviously a purely stat based analysis, just because a fight does not have Tactical damage does not always mean melee wins - mechanics and class balance still play a big role in class effectiveness - but it means that without TactMit melee is most stat efficient and with TactMit it's about equal)

  7. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    This is interesting because I think you don't view stats in their entirety but rather pick and choose one and then draw invalid conclusions from it

    Let's examine the TactMit argument for a second:
    Melee classes gain either 4.5 (Captain, Champion, Burglar) or 5 points of morale per vitality, ranged 4 points of morale and 1 point of TactMit
    1 Moonlit Essence of Tact Mitigation is 16983, 1 Moonlit Essence of Vitality is 1605

    If I wanted to get 1 Essence worth of TactMit from Vit as a ranged class I'd need 16983 Vitality, that's 16983/1605=10,58 Vitality Essences = 16983 Vitality
    If I wanted the same TactMit as a melee class I'd have to use 1 essence slot for Tact Mit, so I'd only have 9,58 Vitality Essences = 15378 Vitality

    The 16983 Vitality I'd get as a ranged class would get me 16983x4 = 67932 morale (and 16983 TactMit)
    The 15378 Vitality I'd get as a Champion/Burglar/Captain would get me 15378x4,5 = 69201 morale (and 16983 TactMit)
    The 15378 Vitality I'd get as a Guardian/Beorning/Warden would get me 15378x5 = 76890 (and 16983 TactMit)

    Vitality is already a stronger stat on all melee classes than on ranged classes. For Hunters we can stop right there. All the other stats work exactly the same (3 Mastery/1 Crit per main stat and same benefits from Fate)
    TactMit in fights is needed to balance melee vs Hunters, to make melee invest in TactMit and balance out the free stats (morale) they gain elsewhere

    Now let's look at RKs because their main stat works differently:
    Will gives 3 Mastery/1 Finesse/1 Tact Mit. On paper that looks stronger than Might/Agi, in practice it isn't. The reality is that attacks that pass resistance checks need SIGNIFICANTLY higher finesse to hit than attacks that pass BPE checks (same is true for Wardens). So while RKs technically get 5 points from their main stat as opposed to 4, we currently have around 70k main stat, so that's 70k extra Finesse. BUT you need about 210k Finesse to reach similiar hit % with tactical skills than physical skills do with 140k. So all that extra Finesse gets eaten up by resistance being OP compared to BPE. That's btw also why Warden's need their very powerful stat boosts (>50k Finesse and Mastery) because they too check against resistance and would not reach the same stats as physical classes because they need ridiculous finesse levels
    So if we ignore the Finesse on Will (which gets eaten up completely) that leaves us with 3 Mastery and 1 TactMit. So if a fight features TactMit the RK has a ~70k advantage, that Might and Agi classes need to compensate. BUT the might and agi classes have a 70k crit advantage, that the RK needs to compensate. Without TactMit might and agi classes can run glasscanon builds and enjoy the advantage of free crit from mainstat

    CONCLUSION:
    If a fight features TactMit: Melee = Ranged = Tactical
    If a fight does not feature TactMit: Melee > Ranged > Tactical

    (This is obviously a purely stat based analysis, just because a fight does not have Tactical damage does not always mean melee wins - mechanics and class balance still play a big role in class effectiveness - but it means that without TactMit melee is most stat efficient and with TactMit it's about equal)
    You ignore in your calculation 2 points.
    1. no dps can atm and later would (if we don´t get the opportunity to overcap extreme) spend slots in vitality or mitigations. So all passive we get from the vita on the gear, which is allways on it, rangeclasse get more 4+1>4.5.
    2. rangeclasses have less incoming dmgsources, no 360 aoe and especially auras which are allways tactical. So all melee get infight more dmg as range. Not even mention the scenario of lost aggro, turn around and hit (melee) vs turn around and run to the target so the tank have a chance to taunt (range) or the danger to stay in the frontdmg (well both failure playerwise but possible)

    If you calculate it down without fails of the players. Incoming dmgsources:
    Range: randomhits
    Melee: random hits, 360, auras
    Tanks: all kind of dmg

    So for this you can see the morale factors 4, 4.5 and 5 as balanced only the tac mit for range destroys it. So adding 1tac mit/vita for all classes would be a matter of balance.

    besides this not all classe get from their main stat 3 mastery + 1 crit. e.g. guards onkly get 3 mastery or cappies 2.5 phy and 2.5 tac mas.

  8. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    You ignore in your calculation 2 points.
    1. no dps can atm and later would (if we don´t get the opportunity to overcap extreme) spend slots in vitality or mitigations. So all passive we get from the vita on the gear, which is allways on it, rangeclasse get more 4+1>4.5.
    No I don't ignore anything..you do math wrong

    Vitality is strongest for classes with 5, then classes with 4,5, then classes with 4+1, because 0,5 morale is still stronger than 1 TactMit - as my calculation shows clearly

    To be more precise, it's stronger for Tact damage..it's much much stronger for Phys damage

  9. #184
    It will be nice if battle frenzy gives tactical mitigation for Red line too instead only for Yellow.Also a bit more points from heavy armor to tactical mitigation would be nice too.
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  10. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    It will be nice if battle frenzy gives tactical mitigation for Red line too instead only for Yellow.Also a bit more points from heavy armor to tactical mitigation would be nice too.
    The mitigation comes from fervour, not from battle frenzy alone.
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  11. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    The mitigation comes from fervour, not from battle frenzy alone.
    I know its bonus from yellow line, i just say that would be very useful if they can find a way so we can have it for red line too.Maybe when they try to change the Red tree a bit so they can give us the mitigations they can do that too some way.It would be very useful.
    Arandour Champion Rank 12-Nerien Hunter rank 11-Runendir RK Rank 7
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  12. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    This is interesting because I think you don't view stats in their entirety but rather pick and choose one and then draw invalid conclusions from it
    And I could say the same thing to you.

    What I was speaking to regarding tactical mit is the significant amount of tactical damage present in all instances. Indeed, I wouldn't hesitate to guess that at least 90% of all raidwide damage AoEs, puddles, or other unavoidable AoEs are tactical damage. The primary issue with this comes to range. Melee must be in melee range of the boss in order to do damage (bows are... not a viable source of damage for melee). Ranged need to be within a certain arbitrarily large distance of the boss in order to do damage.

    In an ideal world, this doesn't matter. Puddles are never dropped on a boss. In reality (where we live) this does matter. Puddles are frequently dropped in places where they shouldn't be. On bosses, in the middle of rooms, on healers, on tanks, on other melee dps... etc. Puddles are inherently more dangerous to melee than they are to ranged dps and the reason for this is the maximum engagement range available between those classes. If a melee class has 4 meter range, then they have a circle with a radius of 4 meters they must stay within in order to deal damage. If a puddle has a 5m radius and is dropped directly on top of a boss then that melee can no longer do damage without taking (supposedly avoidable) damage. A ranged character usually has a 30m range. This means they have a circle with a radius of 30m from which to do damage. If a puddle drops with a radius of 25m (5 times that of the one affecting the melee) the ranged can simply move to the open spot and continue to dps *WITHOUT* taking damage.

    Heres the key part. Tactical Mit (and vitality, and physical mit) are LESS EFFECTIVE on ranged characters because they don't take as much damage. Tactical Mit (and vit & phys... etc) are MORE EFFECTIVE on melee dps because they have a smaller engagement range.

    If we're all clear on that point then we come to the other part of this. Tactical damage is far more frequent than physical damage for dps. (I acknowledge that I'm completely omitting tanks here). For any % of tactical damage greater than 51%, tactical mitigation is worth more than physical damage. Tactical damage IS more prevalent than physical damage for dps. Tactical Mit IS more effective than physical mit for dps. But heres the problem, for the classes which need tactical mit more, they don't get as much.

    Lets now take a moment and look at your numbers. You use periods and commas interchangably, and you don't use commas as thousands breaks so I'm going to simplify your numbers slightly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    Let's examine the TactMit argument for a second:
    Melee classes gain either 4.5 (Captain, Champion, Burglar) or 5 points of morale per vitality, ranged 4 points of morale and 1 point of TactMit
    1 Moonlit Essence of Tact Mitigation is 16983, 1 Moonlit Essence of Vitality is 1605
    So we'll look at 2 classes. Champ and Hunter. Per your numbers Champ gets 4.5/1 Morale per Vitality. Hunter gets 4/1 Morale per Vitality and 1/1 TacMit per Vitality. For a single Moonlit Essence of Vitality a Champ gains 7,222.5 Morale, and 7,222.5 effective HP (eHP) against a tactical attack. For a single vit essence a hunter gains 6,420 morale, but (assuming 0 Tact Mit for simplicity) actually gains 6,421.926 eHP against tactical damage.

    Lets keep using your numbers now, but we'll use whole numbers as those are whats available to us.. Ranged classes gain 11 essences of Vit. Melee gain 10 essences of Vit plus one of Tact Mit. 11 essences of vit equates to 17655 vitality, or 70,620 points of morale and 17,655 points of tactical mit. (From 0) that is 3.6% tactical mitigation. so your eHP against tactical damage is 73.162.32.
    Melee gain 10 essences of Vit and one of Tactical Mit. 16050 vit, 16983 tactical mit. 72,225 Morale, 16983 Tact Mit (3.5%) so 74,752.875 eHP against tactical damage.


    Effectively, both classes have around the same eHP against tactical damage. So heres where the big one comes out to play. When you avoid damage, you take no damage. Sounds simple right? except it totally ####s up effective survivability. Lets say a boss has a passive aura of 3k tactical damage per 3 seconds. Lets also say this aura has a 20m range. A champion MUST be within this range in order to attack the boss so the champion takes 1k per second. The hunter does NOT need to be within this radius to do damage so the hunter takes 0 per second. Effective survivability of the hunter is a divide by 0 error (aka infinite), effective survivability of the champion is measured in seconds, their eHP for Tactical /1,000. If the champion has 200k health the champion can survive unaided for 200 seconds.

    The other thing you're missing from your earlier work is that damage is no longer calculated in small increments.

    Lets use the numbers from above, ranged have 73k eHP against tactical and melee have 75k eHP against tactical. 2k damage is 2 seconds of extra life against a 3k/s dot. 0 seconds of extra life against a 5k/s dot.

    The issues I have with tactical damage are less-so simply about the comparitively massive amounts of tactical mit that ranged can get with minimal investment (though this is a problem. With larger amounts of vitality, ranged 4 morale/1 tacmit split becomes more and more valuable as tacmit is a multiplicative increase.) And more-so about the preponderance of damage in instances that melee have no tools for dealing with. Melee don't have >4m attacks. Melee don't have high tactical mit baseline (without neutering our crit which present a whole nother issue of champion balancing). Champions specifically don't have powerful defensives to sustain ourselves. Ebbing Ire (which costs a legacy slot) boosts our tactical mit by less than 10k when fully maxed. Thats less than a 1% damage reduction increase. Continuous Blood Rage is 50% increased resistance rating, I've got 7.3% right now. Bracing Attack heals for an utterly pathetic value of 14k without legacy on a 30s cooldown. Fight On is on the GCD, heals for 3% hp per 2 second for 20s (30%) but doesn't assist with quick spike damage recovery. 3% of 200k is 6k. The simple existence of a healer invalidates this skill. Fear Nothing increases our incoming healing (with legacy) by 6300 at max. Again, scaling issues as this is less than half a % increase.

    If you want to really understand what I'm trying to say, look up the loldrg memes in FFXIV and Dragoons and low magic defense in second coil. Can it be worked around, yes. Can it be managed, yes. Does it require more from the group to boost the struggling players, also yes. You shouldn't cost your group something for simply existing. Right now you cost your group both lower dps and lower survivability simply by being in the group. Because of the way fights are designed.

  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    No I don't ignore anything..you do math wrong

    Vitality is strongest for classes with 5, then classes with 4,5, then classes with 4+1, because 0,5 morale is still stronger than 1 TactMit - as my calculation shows clearly

    To be more precise, it's stronger for Tact damage..it's much much stronger for Phys damage
    All dmg which a range doesn't get.
    Not to forget that range have gar more survivalbility skillwise as melee especialely champs. Rks steady hands and bubble or self motivation. Hunters blood arrow and press onward. All strong heals or moralepool increasements with short cds.
    What does a champ have fight in 3% morale all 2s for 20s, ob 30% morale but as a hot when some auras doting higher and bracing attack which 12k you can forget.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    It will be nice if battle frenzy gives tactical mitigation for Red line too instead only for Yellow.Also a bit more points from heavy armor to tactical mitigation would be nice too.
    Or this make armozr grant 1/1 tacmit too and remove it completely from vita.

  14. #189
    It would be nice to have a flurry-like buff but invert it from mitigation bypass to mitigation bolster. Maybe put it low in Blue Line so tanks have something to look for and we can have a reason to spend points in blue.

    Something like: dealing damage with strike skills has a 33/67/100% chance to grant "Close Quarters" which increases your tactical mitigation by 5%. Lasts for 10s and stacks 1/2/3 times. Buff % to make it relevant to all levels, NOT RATING. Putting it in Blue creates an opportunity cost against things in lower redline/yellow line and its only maintained in close quarters combat so you feel sturdier while you close to melee range to whale on something.


    A lot of the problems champions have (with survivability and damage) can be boiled down to feeling weak in-the-moment offensively and defensively. Redline can force crits on Merciful Strike. But until we reach that threshold our damage is at the mercy of RNG. We can throw out as many attacks as possible but if they don't crit we're not doing damage.
    Yellow line bleeds are kinda pathetic. Most of the damage comes from AoE spenders with cooldowns. Same issue with the crits but they aren't waiting for sub50%, they're waiting for cooldowns to finish on Fury of Blades. Blue Line is all about Riposte. If you aren't B/P/Evading you aren't getting to use your higher-damage oGCD skill.

    Defensively 30% health sounds good on paper, but with a 2 minute cooldown and a 20s application period it doesn't FEEL like its a powerful defensive cooldown as you can easily die in those 20s while its healing you. Fear Nothing sucks and needs a massive overhaul.

    Blood Rage feels good for Redline. It feels like you're spreading your feet, raising your swords and declaring "here I am and damn the consequences!" And for a short while you can ignore altered states. It feels good to use. You use it and you break out of the combat state and you gain immunity to combat states for a short while. You get both immediate feedback and delayed feedback. Thats good design. We need to feel like that for the other parts of our kit. When we use a skill it should feel like we used a skill. When we Battle Frenzy we gain 5 fervour. All the problems with Battle Frenzy aside, it immediately jumps us to our higher-damage skills. Where is the same Feedback for... champions duel for example?

  15. #190
    Mobs in T3 - T5 instance content have 142497 armour penetration, please be aware, that this will reduce your physical and tactical mitigation by 142497, all tactical mitigation from vitality, Will and Fate stats is eaten by this debuff, so most dps classes are doing this content with 0% tactical mitigation, no matter if they have tactical mitigation buff from their primary stats or not. Any kind of Morale buff is much better than tactical mitigation rating buff for dps classes, so 5 morale from vitality is much better than 4 morale and 1 tactical mitigation.

    Note: I have tested armour penetration with my warden and penetration debuffs both mitigation by 142497, some people thinks, that this penetration affects tactical mitigation by only 20% of this value, but they are wrong, even information on lotro wiki is incorrect.
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  16. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by mrplaneswalker View Post
    Effectively, both classes have around the same eHP against tactical damage. So heres where the big one comes out to play. When you avoid damage, you take no damage. Sounds simple right? except it totally ####s up effective survivability. Lets say a boss has a passive aura of 3k tactical damage per 3 seconds. Lets also say this aura has a 20m range. A champion MUST be within this range in order to attack the boss so the champion takes 1k per second. The hunter does NOT need to be within this radius to do damage so the hunter takes 0 per second. Effective survivability of the hunter is a divide by 0 error (aka infinite), effective survivability of the champion is measured in seconds, their eHP for Tactical /1,000. If the champion has 200k health the champion can survive unaided for 200 seconds.
    I honestly think auras and so on can be ignored for the most part..ALL healers produce at least 10k AoE HPS per target completely for free just with the AoE heals they use in their single target rotation, since damage always kinda comes in bursts this does not cancel out 10k DTPS but at least 6-7k. There's no difference whether you take 6k damage per second or nothing because healers just deal with it without even targeting you

    From my practical experience as a healer I notice little difference between, say, Wardens and Hunters in terms of extra healing needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrplaneswalker View Post
    The issues I have with tactical damage are less-so simply about the comparitively massive amounts of tactical mit that ranged can get with minimal investment (though this is a problem. With larger amounts of vitality, ranged 4 morale/1 tacmit split becomes more and more valuable as tacmit is a multiplicative increase.) And more-so about the preponderance of damage in instances that melee have no tools for dealing with. Melee don't have >4m attacks. Melee don't have high tactical mit baseline (without neutering our crit which present a whole nother issue of champion balancing). Champions specifically don't have powerful defensives to sustain ourselves. Ebbing Ire (which costs a legacy slot) boosts our tactical mit by less than 10k when fully maxed. Thats less than a 1% damage reduction increase. Continuous Blood Rage is 50% increased resistance rating, I've got 7.3% right now. Bracing Attack heals for an utterly pathetic value of 14k without legacy on a 30s cooldown. Fight On is on the GCD, heals for 3% hp per 2 second for 20s (30%) but doesn't assist with quick spike damage recovery. 3% of 200k is 6k. The simple existence of a healer invalidates this skill. Fear Nothing increases our incoming healing (with legacy) by 6300 at max. Again, scaling issues as this is less than half a % increase.
    Look, I agree that Champions need buffs..I think I said so around 10 times in the forums within the last month or two. What I dispute is that melee need buffs. Wardens are totally fine and Burglars are OP, those 2 classes need no help whatsoever.
    The issues you are experiencing are Champion issues, not melee issues

    The biggest issue is obviously lack of damage. The whole TactMit debate would go away if just the damage was fixed, if Burglars and Wardens have to switch to 3-4 TactMit essences they don't have a problem, they are still great dps.

    I think if you want to balance dps classes first all need to do the same single target damage, and then in a second step they need a balanced amount of utility. Surviveability is utility, as is extra AoE targets or CC or offheals or whatever
    That's why Wardens vs RKs are balanced right now, they do similiar single target damage and RKs have Selfmotivation/DNF/a ranged interrupt and so on, while Wardens bring a lot of AoE damage as their utility
    Both classes have similiar strength in their primary role (single target damage) and also a balanced amount of utility

    Burglars have OP single target damage and great utility as well

    The issue is a) the Champion does not do enough damage, that needs to be increased by ~30% and b) the utility in redline needs to be examined too (in yellow Champs have Rend, that's pretty good)

  17. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krindel View Post
    Mobs in T3 - T5 instance content have 142497 armour penetration, please be aware, that this will reduce your physical and tactical mitigation by 142497, all tactical mitigation from vitality, Will and Fate stats is eaten by this debuff, so most dps classes are doing this content with 0% tactical mitigation, no matter if they have tactical mitigation buff from their primary stats or not. Any kind of Morale buff is much better than tactical mitigation rating buff for dps classes, so 5 morale from vitality is much better than 4 morale and 1 tactical mitigation.

    Note: I have tested armour penetration with my warden and penetration debuffs both mitigation by 142497, some people thinks, that this penetration affects tactical mitigation by only 20% of this value, but they are wrong, even information on lotro wiki is incorrect.
    The problem is in the code we get 0.2 tac mit/armour but the mops and creeps top get 1 tac mit/ armour. There is the difference and our armour reduction/ Penetration reduces thus armour. X of tac mit and phy mit. Not 0.2x tac mit. And the foes penetration/ reduction works as our, so either this should get corrected or we should get 1 tac mit/armour too.
    So the armour Penetration should only penetrate the armour value and the mit given by it not the mit we get elsewere as direct value or vita....
    So as you explained melee stand without tacmit in auras and range don't stand in auras with x tac mit.

    The code is wrong you can see it on captains too. Defensive strike adds phy mit directly not armour.
    If the cord work correctly it would take 142497 armour from your warden and then reduce the mits to their value without this armour. If you habe less armour the value goes cero but all direct values/ others sources should stay.

    And even the false code doesn't improve the position of melee, range would habe a better stand with factor1 to morale cause they have no inc dmg sources and much strenger survivalbility skills.

  18. #193
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    3,588
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    I honestly think auras and so on can be ignored for the most part..ALL healers produce at least 10k AoE HPS per target completely for free just with the AoE heals they use in their single target rotation, since damage always kinda comes in bursts this does not cancel out 10k DTPS but at least 6-7k. There's no difference whether you take 6k damage per second or nothing because healers just deal with it without even targeting you

    From my practical experience as a healer I notice little difference between, say, Wardens and Hunters in terms of extra
    The problem starts with a lm as heal or running without a heal.
    For threemen it means with a melee you need a heal with range not.
    So we're at a point when you've to choose a slow run with tank,heal 1 worse dps or a fast Progress run with tank and two better dps.

  19. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    The issue is a) the Champion does not do enough damage, that needs to be increased by ~30% and b) the utility in redline needs to be examined too (in yellow Champs have Rend, that's pretty good)
    Agree.Definitely need that amount for Red line and also at list proper up scale of horn of Gondor so can offer some kind of support.
    A friend here made a good suggestion,if they give as 10/15% mitigation penetration for Red and also a amount of that like 5% can be given for the group also it will make Red champions very useful for the group.
    Another thing i want to mention even that some from other classes will not agree is that Yellow need to buffed up too.Not like 30% like Red ofc but at least a 10% for sure.We cannot focus at ST targets and make AOE at the same time like other classes,we have to go ether AOE or ST at high tiers.Because of that both lines should be equally strong and also we dont provide much support to the group like the others does.If a champion goes Yellow in a boss fight the others have the advantage cause they focus to boss and AOE everything down at the same time.The content very rare have more than 8 targets to been hit at the same time,that makes Yellow line only useful for thrush pulls between bosses and in very rare occasions that there is a boss fight that spawns many adds.
    Rend buffed up to 65k with legacy and thats very good so at least we can offer some support to the group but i think its not enough to make Yellow champions very useful,the line need more dps too.
    Some people from other classes disagree and say that we shouldn't do big ST and big AOE.I say they are wrong cause their classes already do that anyway and we have to do ether single or AOE cannot do both at the same time so in 9 of 10 occasions burglars,RKs and Wardens still will have the advantage anyway even if the Yellow line buffed up a bit also along with Red line.
    Right now buff of Yellow line is a luxury of course and even if they dont do it Yellow still will have place to a content when needed cause at least its decent and offers Rend for support.Priority is Red line and there should be given all the attention but if they want to help as more then i think a bit boost for Yellow line will be very nice too.
    Arandour Champion Rank 12-Nerien Hunter rank 11-Runendir RK Rank 7
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  20. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    The problem is in the code we get 0.2 tac mit/armour but the mops and creeps top get 1 tac mit/ armour. There is the difference and our armour reduction/ Penetration reduces thus armour. X of tac mit and phy mit. Not 0.2x tac mit. And the foes penetration/ reduction works as our, so either this should get corrected or we should get 1 tac mit/armour too.
    So the armour Penetration should only penetrate the armour value and the mit given by it not the mit we get elsewere as direct value or vita....
    So as you explained melee stand without tacmit in auras and range don't stand in auras with x tac mit.

    The code is wrong you can see it on captains too. Defensive strike adds phy mit directly not armour.
    If the cord work correctly it would take 142497 armour from your warden and then reduce the mits to their value without this armour. If you habe less armour the value goes cero but all direct values/ others sources should stay.

    And even the false code doesn't improve the position of melee, range would habe a better stand with factor1 to morale cause they have no inc dmg sources and much strenger survivalbility skills.
    Thank you both for this information! I shall update my ratings calculator. I wish that I could change Wiki too, but recently it doesn't let me log in anymore.

  21. #196
    Well.. burglars are the selling point of the new stout-axes dwarves so they buffed them (most likely) to give more motivation to buy the new race. Anyway champions are so broken and if you dont break your finger to reach the decent level (not event the best)then its almost imposible to play content.

    Nasguls seems to need some mitigations in ordeer to survive without healing puddles. So if you put mitigation you lose damage. One more problem is that Physical mastery is hard to maximazed (at least for me) with maxed critical raiting so if we need to put mits essence its extra problem. The instance also does lot of fears and eyes that you have to run away from group and bosses while range dpsers are already far and they don't lose damage.

    In general some champions skills doesnt work properly i m not sure if its only me but fear nothing doesnt remove anything sometimes even whe i do quests on landscape and some dps skills need to be repeated in order to make damage therefore you casuing lose dps. I believe champs need a more stronger Immune to everything skill like blood rage but stronger and a self heal puddle should be stronger than fight on's 3%.

    Apart from damage increased update that champ should be the number 1 melee damage class even on SOLO because champs doesn't have any other role while burglars can debuffs and wardens can tank champions need:

    1)Better immune to everything for period of time skill (so we can press it before certen events) and dont take any kind of no dispelable fear/stun/slow/etc effects.
    2)Better penetration buffs so they can have support on their own by using proper rotations meaning independence.
    3)Better Self heals and buddles.

    Champions need to be a class that dont need much support and heals so they can be beneficial option for group and a plus over other classes. Burglars need more heals but debuff well that benefits the group or chose champ that do more damage and dont need much heals . its a fair trade.

    P.S: I also noticed some skills on YELLOW working better than other skills. Its realy wierd champs seems to be the only class in lotro that has bugged skills.... GIVE US ATTENTION DEVS
    Last edited by Aleziana; Feb 03 2020 at 01:18 PM.
    REMOVE Rohan Kingstead Homestead from the open world map it ruins the immersion and a shame for the ART.

  22. #197
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    6,014
    I'll add my voice to this thread (Was going to make my own)

    - The deep strikes bug is horrendous. Please address. Easy buff to dps is to make the bleed stack as has been suggested.

    - My champ has 150k more mastery than my burg and 40k more crit and I do 60% of my burg's damage. ????????

    - Inherent tact mitigation is anemic. T3 mobs deal bonus damage to you because of the mit penetration. While this is fine for a berserker class, Champs don't have the damage to accept this trade off.

    My personal theory of how classes should perform in terms of ST DPS (Hunters --> Champs --> RK --> wardens/Burgs/Bears). Hunters/Champs literally don't do anything except dps (And don't say tank, i've tried it with full T5 gear and it's atrocious. Your TPS is higher, your dps is lower and you add nothing to the group as a guard/cpt would).
    .

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  23. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by cwswim03 View Post
    My personal theory of how classes should perform in terms of ST DPS (Hunters --> Champs --> RK --> wardens/Burgs/Bears). Hunters/Champs literally don't do anything except dps (And don't say tank, i've tried it with full T5 gear and it's atrocious. Your TPS is higher, your dps is lower and you add nothing to the group as a guard/cpt would).
    Hunters-Champions-Wardens-Rks-Burglars and whole the rest in my opinion and i will say why and not only for ST but for AOE too.

    1.Hunters indeed offer nothing else than dps and low support,Yellow line is useless and have no AOE.They should be the best ST in game.Difficulty of the class advanced if you want to be competitive.

    2.Champions are melee means harder to do dps some times than range cause of the mechanics.Have only 2 working lines Red for single and Yellow for AOE.Blue line is almost useless and in a bit better conditions than Yellow line is for hunters.
    Champions at high tiers can do efficiently only ST or AOE damage not both,also offer less support than other dps classes and the class is very hard to master cause of the weapon swapping mostly.In my opinion should be second after hunter in ST and best for AOE no matter if the targets are to many or not.(Burglars do more dps than Champions for 3-4 targets?I mean come on).

    3.Wardens.They have better tanking abilities and offer better support to group than champions but the class is very hard to master.Because of their better tanking abilities and also cause they can focus to ST and AOE everything down at the same time i put them a bit lower than Champions for ST and AOE but in front of the Rks cause its harder class and also melee.

    4.Rks.Good healing abilities,good Red line,good Yellow line.Can do with both lines ST and AOE damage,easy to master in every spec and also better support for the group from the other dps classes.In my opinion if you except the OP broken burglars RKs is the most complete dps class.

    5.Burglars.They offer better support and have better survival abilities from all the other classes above.Should go below Red Rks for ST and much lower for AOE.Was mainly support class for 13 years and now,become the most powerful dps class.
    It was the easy way to give them so much dps but was not the better way and that create huge gap between dps classes and not only.Its good for them to have some decent ST and AOE damage ofc so they can do instances as a dps but not so OP like that.
    I think the serious old school burglars prefer more that attention to be given for the other 2 specs instead of that huge dps upgrade.Now they have lost their identity and become an OP easy to play "dps class" nothing more.
    The whole game is full of new Valard Red Burglars.That was the developers intention just to sell Valars at any cost?
    Arandour Champion Rank 12-Nerien Hunter rank 11-Runendir RK Rank 7
    Kinship PRIME-Evernight Since May 2007
    Borzol R12-Mauhnakh R9-Varcolac R9-Sumnor R8-Orcapo R8 (Creep status retired)
    Discord: Arandour #1742

  24. #199
    Arandour, I completely agree with your analysis

  25. #200
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    6,014
    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    Hunters-Champions-Wardens-Rks-Burglars and whole the rest in my opinion and i will say why and not only for ST but for AOE too.

    1.Hunters indeed offer nothing else than dps and low support,Yellow line is useless and have no AOE.They should be the best ST in game.Difficulty of the class advanced if you want to be competitive.

    2.Champions are melee means harder to do dps some times than range cause of the mechanics.Have only 2 working lines Red for single and Yellow for AOE.Blue line is almost useless and in a bit better conditions than Yellow line is for hunters.
    Champions at high tiers can do efficiently only ST or AOE damage not both,also offer less support than other dps classes and the class is very hard to master cause of the weapon swapping mostly.In my opinion should be second after hunter in ST and best for AOE no matter if the targets are to many or not.(Burglars do more dps than Champions for 3-4 targets?I mean come on).

    3.Wardens.They have better tanking abilities and offer better support to group than champions but the class is very hard to master.Because of their better tanking abilities and also cause they can focus to ST and AOE everything down at the same time i put them a bit lower than Champions for ST and AOE but in front of the Rks cause its harder class and also melee.

    4.Rks.Good healing abilities,good Red line,good Yellow line.Can do with both lines ST and AOE damage,easy to master in every spec and also better support for the group from the other dps classes.In my opinion if you except the OP broken burglars RKs is the most complete dps class.

    5.Burglars.They offer better support and have better survival abilities from all the other classes above.Should go below Red Rks for ST and much lower for AOE.Was mainly support class for 13 years and now,become the most powerful dps class.
    It was the easy way to give them so much dps but was not the better way and that create huge gap between dps classes and not only.Its good for them to have some decent ST and AOE damage ofc so they can do instances as a dps but not so OP like that.
    I think the serious old school burglars prefer more that attention to be given for the other 2 specs instead of that huge dps upgrade.Now they have lost their identity and become an OP easy to play "dps class" nothing more.
    The whole game is full of new Valard Red Burglars.That was the developers intention just to sell Valars at any cost?
    Stout axe aria'd burglars
    .

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