Legendary Server PvMP?

[fiedra]

Hey guys! I recently returned to playing with the introduction of the "Legendary servers." I must say, the large player population and the general excitement I've witnessed on Anor has been great! (Not to mention exposure from streamers such as Shroud.)

However, one looming question that I and many others have is in regards to PvMP. Will there be PvMP on the Legendary Servers (and if so, is there a time-table for this)? I know that many of us would be thrilled to see a renewal of LOTRO PvMP, and the Legendary Servers would just be that much more legendary in my book should the Ettenmoors be opened for level 50s!

I'm not looking to start a debate about whether PvMP is trash or not. Some people like it and some people don't, so please take your arguments to your local world chat....

I hope we're given an update on this soon!

[Tiempko]

My guess is that, since SSG is using the same code on all servers (and only altering a few settings on each computer), they cannot have Level 50 PvMP on one server and level 120 PvMP on another. It is either all Level 50 or all Level 120. Which means, it is Level 120 on the Legendary Servers with the lands being prohibited.

It is just a hypothesis, and I have been wrong before.

[maartena]

My guess is that, since SSG is using the same code on all servers (and only altering a few settings on each computer), they cannot have Level 50 PvMP on one server and level 120 PvMP on another. It is either all Level 50 or all Level 120. Which means, it is Level 120 on the Legendary Servers with the lands being prohibited.

It is just a hypothesis, and I have been wrong before.

Not a bad assumption though.... Since a level 10 can (technically) enter the moors and be scaled up to 120, it is reasonable to think that IF the moors were active on the Legendary Servers, this would also mean anyone there would be scaled up to 120.

And that doesn't really jive with the idea of the legendary server, and it may allow for some exploits by being able to 120-strong, and able to buy say level 50 or level 60 armor to wear in PVE. So they MAY be able to seperate the two in the future and more or less "toggle" the level for Ettenmoors, it isn't enabled right now, and I am not sure if this will ever happen. For now, there is no PVmP on the Legendary Servers.

[Skoch]

Hmmm, I wonder if they could alter the Osgiliath PvMP area into a lvl 50 scale-able zone (permanently or tied to some sort-of "Legendary" progression).
Would that be a possible means for PvMP on both non-legendary servers and these?
That's assuming PvMP zoning is stuck at lvl 120, as suggested here, as a possible reasoning behind it not being included.
In this case, the current Ettenmoors zoning would remain, as is, inaccessible on Legendary Servers, but able to be kept as is on the non-Legendary Servers.
...or Vise versa?

[istvana]

I am quite happy with no pvmp.

I know letting other people do it doesn't hurt me a bit but I get *so* tired of the pvmp players talking trash endlessly on world chat - it is a pleasure to be free from that.

That said - the Osgilliath map is enormously underused to put it mildly and if it can be changed into a lower level area for both types of servers it will add a *lot* for the new servers and probably will also improve things on the other servers. Good idea!

[HJS123]

Hmmm, I wonder if they could alter the Osgiliath PvMP area into a lvl 50 scale-able zone (permanently or tied to some sort-of "Legendary" progression).
Would that be a possible means for PvMP on both non-legendary servers and these?
That's assuming PvMP zoning is stuck at lvl 120, as suggested here, as a possible reasoning behind it not being included.
In this case, the current Ettenmoors zoning would remain, as is, inaccessible on Legendary Servers, but able to be kept as is on the non-Legendary Servers.
...or Vise versa?

couldn't agree more, LOTRO pvp was always bleh... if it comes cool if not oh well

[Nonde]

The pro-pvmp players on Anor pvp world chat repeatedly and at length and is to point I would like no pvmp on Legendary servers ever. At the same time it is desirable to support all game styles and suggest establishment of a cross-server pvmp instances - or one for all US and one for all EU servers if coding issues preclude just one - to support those who struggle to find sufficient populations for it to be enjoyable. And/or create a pvmp LS - should be profitable as according to the latest 90 minutes of pvp in Anor world chat we owe the existence of the game to pvp as it provided 75% of Lotro's income in past years and without which servers would comprise only unskilled snowflakes.

Bottom line: Do Something to channel these folk into something that supports their game style as first preference, or make a definitive decision as to if and when pvmp will be introduced on the LS to End Hours of Trolling. If the former can't be implemented - or as a means to ascertain demand to determine if the investment is worthwhile - I would welcome a survey emailed to accounts with characters on the LS. With apologies to the actual pvp'ers, ie those who pursue it for skill and challenge, the pvmp troll contingent on Anor has changed my vote to NO.

[PANZERBUNNY]

The pro-pvmp players on Anor pvp world chat repeatedly and at length and is to point I would like no pvmp on Legendary servers ever. At the same time it is desirable to support all game styles and suggest establishment of a cross-server pvmp instances - or one for all US and one for all EU servers if coding issues preclude just one - to support those who struggle to find sufficient populations for it to be enjoyable. And/or create a pvmp LS - should be profitable as according to the latest 90 minutes of pvp in Anor world chat we owe the existence of the game to pvp as it provided 75% of Lotro's income in past years and without which servers would comprise only unskilled snowflakes.

Bottom line: Do Something to channel these folk into something that supports their game style as first preference, or make a definitive decision as to if and when pvmp will be introduced on the LS to End Hours of Trolling. If the former can't be implemented - or as a means to ascertain demand to determine if the investment is worthwhile - I would welcome a survey emailed to accounts with characters on the LS. With apologies to the actual pvp'ers, ie those who pursue it for skill and challenge, the pvmp troll contingent on Anor has changed my vote to NO.

There aren't many of them. It's the same people over and over saying the same thing.

[sapienze]

There aren't many of them. It's the same people over and over saying the same thing.

There isn't many of anyone playing on Anor or Ithil. So it may very well be that PvMP could make these servers profitable in the longer term. The player numbers are down 75% from the first 10 days.

[MAWorking]

There aren't many of them. It's the same people over and over saying the same thing.

Yup, and pro-PvPers always talk in the royal we (ie: myself and others, many people, the majority etc).
End of the day, no one can actually prove the demand one way or the other.... so they should simply say, "in my opinion".

[djheydt]

Yup, and pro-PvPers always talk in the royal we (ie: myself and others, many people, the majority etc).

Not only pro-PvPers, whom count me not among, but people do this. We reason "I like X, my friends like X, therefore everybody likes X." It's called situational bias and there's no real cure for it, except to observe the people who love an X that you wouldn't have if it were dipped in cheese, and shrug and say "Different strokes" or something.

End of the day, no one can actually prove the demand one way or the other.... so they should simply say, "in my opinion".

Or, as Benjamin Franklin put it:

I made it a rule to forbear all direct contradictions to the sentiments of others, and all positive assertion of my own. I even forbade myself the use of every word or expression in the language that imported a fixed opinion, such as "certainly", "undoubtedly", etc. I adopted instead of them "I conceive", "I apprehend", or "I imagine" a thing to be so or so; or "so it appears to me at present".
When another asserted something that I thought an error, I denied myself the pleasure of contradicting him abruptly, and of showing him immediately some absurdity in his proposition. In answering I began by observing that in certain cases or circumstances his opinion would be right, but in the present case there appeared or seemed to me some difference, etc.
I soon found the advantage of this change in my manner; the conversations I engaged in went on more pleasantly. The modest way in which I proposed my opinions procured them a readier reception and less contradiction. I had less mortification when I was found to be in the wrong, and I more easily prevailed with others to give up their mistakes and join with me when I happened to be in the right.

[djheydt]

There isn't many of anyone playing on Anor or Ithil. So it may very well be that PvMP could make these servers profitable in the longer term. The player numbers are down 75% from the first 10 days.

That was the original assumption behind adding PvMP to LotRO: that it would attract more players. It didn't.

[MAWorking]

That was the original assumption behind adding PvMP to LotRO: that it would attract more players. It didn't.

First, great points on my post djheydt, and agree.

PVP is a third rail for two groups.
(third rail is an old phrase that refers to the 3rd rail of a trolly car. 2 rails are not charged with electricity, the 3rd one is and that made the trolly go voom voom)

Some like player vs player combat.
Some do not like player vs player combat.
And some people tolerate it if it is not forced on them.

I do not mind playing a game that has PvP but will not play a game that is only PvP.

LOTRO has never been a pvp focused game and most likely never will be.

[sapienze]

That was the original assumption behind adding PvMP to LotRO: that it would attract more players. It didn't.

Original assumption? By who?


Actually it did, and they came in droves. Though for the lack of foresight and priority, those numbers diminished significantly. I see correlation directly between pvp and pve. As PvMP declines so does the total playerbase including PvErs. The two are almost an exact match.







Sight and projection are always strong in these threads.

[Bohemond71]

That was the original assumption behind adding PvMP to LotRO: that it would attract more players. It didn't.

You don't know that. No one knows how many players were attracted to lotro via PvMP ... the data just does not exist.

Given how poorly lotro has been marketed, we couldn't even reliably claim X people came for LOTR

We do know that it kept a lot of players though. For many years, PvMP was a thriving end-game. It engaged many people who were done with PvE content and would have otherwise left.

Turbine admitted several times that PvMP was vastly more successful than they had ever anticipated - they had initially never even considered that a significant number of players would make it their solo focus and play nothing but creep.

An interesting stat to see would be total /played for every lotro character, split between moors and not moors. I think the % of moors would be much higher than many anti-pvpers would assume.

[maartena]

This whole "pro-pvp" and "anti-pvp" talk needs to stop, it's just silly. Some people like it, some people don't. And that's that.

As for it working on the legendary server.... the legendary servers work on the EXACT same code as regular servers, only certain things have been enabled and/or disabled to be more in tune with the level 50 cap. As such, if they simply flip the enable switch for PVP, a level 50 would be upscaled and you would become a level 120 freep in the ettenmoors. The PvP environment would then be *identical* to regular servers.

What people want, is a level 50 capped PvP, and that is a little more challenging. As the code needs to be identical to the regular servers, they need to change the code to allow for different levels, along with different cap level ettenmoors maps (with the right tier level crafting nodes and such). It's probably not impossible to come up with a system that would allow SSG to set the cap level for ettenmoors on a server on the same code, but it will take some coding.... and that will all depend on how much time SSG wants to dedicate to it.

The bad news: It will not happen soon, if ever....
The good news: They haven't 100% ruled it out either, which means they may have an idea on how to get it to work on live code, but haven't attempted the work.

So, we'll have to stay tuned until the devs have some time for it. I'm thinking they have way too much other stuff to do for it to happen soon. Likely not before Moria for sure....

[Bohemond71]

This whole "pro-pvp" and "anti-pvp" talk needs to stop, it's just silly.

It isn't and it doesn't.

They are very accurate categories of posters. Not talking about them doesn't magically make them go away.

[Gutterat]

I am quite happy with no pvmp.

I know letting other people do it doesn't hurt me a bit but I get *so* tired of the pvmp players talking trash endlessly on world chat - it is a pleasure to be free from that.

That said - the Osgilliath map is enormously underused to put it mildly and if it can be changed into a lower level area for both types of servers it will add a *lot* for the new servers and probably will also improve things on the other servers. Good idea!

No point. Osgiliath is totally useless for PvMP. Thats why its underused.

[sapienze]

Not only pro-PvPers, whom count me not among, but people do this. We reason "I like X, my friends like X, therefore everybody likes X." It's called situational bias and there's no real cure for it, except to observe the people who love an X that you wouldn't have if it were dipped in cheese, and shrug and say "Different strokes" or something.

What people want...

This whole "pro-pvp" and "anti-pvp" talk needs to stop, it's just silly. Some people like it, some people don't. And that's that.

A thread about PvP doesn't become a Pro-Anti discussion until someone declares they are against it. It's kinda like someone jumping into a thread about Guardian class changes and saying "No You".
It is indeed silly, however someone saying it needs to stop is even more silly. Discussions are always going to have opposite views though many just blurt out "No You" and offer little to represent their point of view on the matter. Then there are always the additions which barely offer supposition weighted by facts.

I haven't seen a pvp thread, outside of the pvp section of these forums, where someone hasn't jumped in and made it a Pro-Anti, Us verses Them thread. Some are more subtle and some not so much but the goal is always the same. To suppress anything that doesn't concur with their view. Now that is full on silly, in my opinion.

[Lathius]

A thread about PvP doesn't become a Pro-Anti discussion until someone declares they are against it. It's kinda like someone jumping into a thread about Guardian class changes and saying "No You".
It is indeed silly, however someone saying it needs to stop is even more silly. Discussions are always going to have opposite views though many just blurt out "No You" and offer little to represent their point of view on the matter. Then there are always the additions which barely offer supposition weighted by facts.

I haven't seen a pvp thread, outside of the pvp section of these forums, where someone hasn't jumped in and made it a Pro-Anti, Us verses Them thread. Some are more subtle and some not so much but the goal is always the same. To suppress anything that doesn't concur with their view. Now that is full on silly, in my opinion.

I have never understood that approach to an argument on these things. If pvp is done correctly then it should have little to no effect on those who do not want to engage in it. It normally ranges to dev time is neglected in other areas, but that is true of many things that not all players enjoy. Everyone has different tastes, but I have never argued for them to remove cosmetics or festivals just because I do not see the value in them. People enjoy their own type of play styles and having more styles available only benefits the game as a whole. I would love to see a bunch of stuff in this game and I really am hoping that SSG plans to take advantage of new interest in the genre with the release of the new series in production.

This game, even as old as it is, still has the potential to be something special. I know alot of people would reinvest in the game itself if they showed the same promise as this game showed at release. They did such a great job with the world and stories, but think they did not plan the progression out the way it should have been. They caved to alot of demands from the community in making things easier, more solo friendly, more levels, etc. and destroyed the original vision they had of the game. There will always be things the playerbase does not agree with you on, but part of the greatness of the game was the original content up to Mirkwood was that it was challenging and rewarding.

[maartena]

If pvp is done correctly then it should have little to no effect on those who do not want to engage in it.

Exactly. Literally NO ONE playing PvE is affected by people playing PvP. Okay, so there might be a few less users online because people log in their creeps and move their freeps to Ettenmoors, but I don't see why people shouldn't be able to do PvP if they want to.

The issue at hand here is that people want a level 50 capped PvP environment. And while the PvE setup was easy to do, and the code for it mostly existed already, the PvP environment is a bit more difficult. At the end of the day, I think it will require loading 2 Ettenmoors maps into the code. One for current cap level on regular live servers, and one for current cap on Legendary servers. It will likely also need coding changes to allow admins to set the maximum level per server independently, instead of everything (in current code) scaling up to level 120.

Also not un-important: The creep environment might not scale all that well, they just get born (and raised) to cap level each time the cap level is changed, whereas freeps level up and get scaled up. With a level 50 and level 120 creep setup, its possible two concurrently running creep environments will have to be loaded into the code to make it all possible.

At the end of the day, I don't really know all the technical details, but I am beginning to see it is not a "flip the PvP switch on" easy-button on the legendary servers, there is more work to do to make it work.....

[Gutterat]

Good point. When you think about it freeps have innate skills, essence armour, legendaries etc. etc. which always get reinforced with every level change. The myriads of combinations for damage, healing and aoe effects that can be used would be very difficult to level the opposition too. Audacity was a pretty good try, but that's gone by the wayside now. It looks like there's been no attempt to remedy the imbalance, probably cos no-one would have a clue how to. I feel this is a great shame as IMHO the pvp system in Lotro is the best I've encountered.

[Beorthnoth]

Exactly. Literally NO ONE playing PvE is affected by people playing PvP. Okay, so there might be a few less users online because people log in their creeps and move their freeps to Ettenmoors, but I don't see why people shouldn't be able to do PvP if they want to.

The issue at hand here is that people want a level 50 capped PvP environment. And while the PvE setup was easy to do, and the code for it mostly existed already, the PvP environment is a bit more difficult. At the end of the day, I think it will require loading 2 Ettenmoors maps into the code. One for current cap level on regular live servers, and one for current cap on Legendary servers. It will likely also need coding changes to allow admins to set the maximum level per server independently, instead of everything (in current code) scaling up to level 120.

Also not un-important: The creep environment might not scale all that well, they just get born (and raised) to cap level each time the cap level is changed, whereas freeps level up and get scaled up. With a level 50 and level 120 creep setup, its possible two concurrently running creep environments will have to be loaded into the code to make it all possible.

At the end of the day, I don't really know all the technical details, but I am beginning to see it is not a "flip the PvP switch on" easy-button on the legendary servers, there is more work to do to make it work.....

I venture to disagree. I would argue that the constant demands for "balance" in PvMP have led to some changes which adversely affect aspects of PvE play, particularly where the attractiveness or otherwise of certain classes among players creating groups is concerned. Or, putting it in other words, changes have been made in response to demands from PvMP players which have had unintended consequences in the open world.

[TearMaker]

I venture to disagree. I would argue that the constant demands for "balance" in PvMP have led to some changes which adversely affect aspects of PvE play, particularly where the attractiveness or otherwise of certain classes among players creating groups is concerned. Or, putting it in other words, changes have been made in response to demands from PvMP players which have had unintended consequences in the open world.

I would love to hear your list of "constant" changes that have been made for pvp that have had such a huge negative impact on pve:
Start at 2007 and list in order by year?

[Beorthnoth]

I would love to hear your list of "constant" changes that have been made for pvp that have had such a huge negative impact on pve:
Start at 2007 and list in order by year?

I said constant demands, not constant changes. I'd suggest, for a start, that a lot of the changes that have made the burglar more or less redundant in pve have the origins in creep qqing - ditto hunter nerfs.