Buying Mordor from UK - TAX? I was just charged £20 TAX for the Ultimate Fan Edition

[Ranatuor_Erutron]

More info for SSG -

In-game on Laurelin, chatting in world chat - UK based player (Dedhil) has been charged tax on a debit card purchase - "i bought the 29.99 basic paid Order Total: 35.99GBP"

[Beorthnoth]

Accountant here.

The tax charges are correct.

The confusion is arising because of differences in the way prices are routinely displayed in the EU (including the UK) and the USA.

In the US, prices are always shown before any applicable taxes.

In the EU, for retail purchases at least, prices are usually shown as inclusive of VAT.

Digital River are quoting their prices the US way, so for an EU person they are misleading. You won't be told about the tax until the last minute in the USA. In a store in Florida, for example, if you buy something marked $10, they'll ask you for $10.70 at the till. For a European, this comes as a shock the first time it happens. Digital River are doing things the US way.

The reason why it's done like that in the States, by the way, is that not all states have sales tax, and it's not the same in all states.

[Gripn]

Accountant here.

The tax charges are correct.

The confusion is arising because of differences in the way prices are routinely displayed in the EU (including the UK) and the USA.

In the US, prices are always shown before any applicable taxes.

In the EU, for retail purchases at least, prices are usually shown as inclusive of VAT.

Digital River are quoting their prices the US way, so for an EU person they are misleading. You won't be told about the tax until the last minute in the USA. In a store in Florida, for example, if you buy something marked $10, they'll ask you for $10.70 at the till. For a European, this comes as a shock the first time it happens. Digital River are doing things the US way.

The reason why it's done like that in the States, by the way, is that not all states have sales tax, and it's not the same in all states.

There's a discrepancy between the way the site has been coded and the text displayed on the web page. The LOTRO store reads, "Price Incl. VAT where applicable". It then prompted me to enter my credit card details. Nowhere did it say that the final price would be £119.99. I'm hopeful that SSG will sort this out. If not, I'll complain to my credit card company as I only authorised £99.99 to be deducted from my credit card.

[Beorthnoth]

There's a discrepancy between the way the site has been coded and the text displayed on the web page. The LOTRO store reads, "Price Incl. VAT where applicable". It then prompted me to enter my credit card details. Nowhere did it say that the final price would be £119.99. I'm hopeful that SSG will sort this out. If not, I'll complain to my credit card company as I only authorised £99.99 to be deducted from my credit card.

Yes - if they say that's a VAT inclusive price, then that is what they should charge. It's all down to US people totally not understanding EU tax and cultural practice. A few hundred chargebacks for the incorrect tax element might concentrate their minds.

[Wibz]

Just to confirm, if I go to the site and just change the currency to GBP, tax gets added later in the process to make it £120. But by clicking the Flag icon at the top first, the price is shown as £ rather than GBP and the price paid is only £99.99. So it's definitely a bug on the website, probably due to Digital River, they are possibly the worse online payment portal I've ever seen.

Edit: This definitely needs to be fixed and refunds paid to those screwed by it. (I'm glad I read this thread before purchasing!)

[Giseldah]

The problem has just been recognized in the livestream (https://www.twitch.tv/lotrostream). It's being looked into.

[Wibz]

SSG have confirmed in the live stream that they are investigating this and will be fixing it. If you've paid extra tax, contact account support to fix it apparently.

[Altair6]

https://help.standingstonegames.com/hc/en-us is probably where you contact account support, I guess.

[Niapants]

Brilliant news =D I'm buying it as soon as we have confirmation that this issue has been dealt with.

[Wibz]

Brilliant news =D I'm buying it as soon as we have confirmation that this issue has been dealt with.

You can buy it now, just make sure you click the flag at the top first, then it clearly states the price includes vat and in my experience it only charged me the correct amount.

[Ranatuor_Erutron]

Cord is running a live stream on Twitch now and has mentioned there is a store issue, it should be inclusive of VAT, and contact Account Support to let them know you have the issue on your order whilst they look into it.

[Ranatuor_Erutron]

Just to confirm, if I go to the site and just change the currency to GBP, tax gets added later in the process to make it £120. But by clicking the Flag icon at the top first, the price is shown as £ rather than GBP and the price paid is only £99.99. So it's definitely a bug on the website, probably due to Digital River, they are possibly the worse online payment portal I've ever seen.

Edit: This definitely needs to be fixed and refunds paid to those screwed by it. (I'm glad I read this thread before purchasing!)

Glad posting it helped someone else not get messed up That was my intention and also to get it sorted from my side

[Ranatuor_Erutron]

I got in touch with SSG customer account services to explain I am on of the people affected by the VAT issue, and I just got the following reply -

Dear ><,

Thank you for contacting the online store.

We are able to issue a refund for any taxes charged when you provide the
required documentation verifying your tax exemption status.

After your order has been placed, please send in a copy of your
tax-exempt certificate using one of the methods below. Be sure to
include your order number.

I thought this issue was from THEIR side, not a matter of me proving anything. Suggestions?

[Amorey]

I thought this issue was from THEIR side, not a matter of me proving anything. Suggestions?

To be honest with you, I think the issue is on us ( as un in the UK ) rather than on SSG side. I could be wrong of course , so I hope someone with more knowledge in VAT will explain better. I did find this earlier (emphasis is mine) . So to me it seem like the 20% VAT is always applied for goods from the US . I am not an accountant though, so as I said, I could be wrong.

I did pay 20% VAT on my Collector Edition, which I was kind of expecting as other games I bought in the past.

Importing goods from the USA

There is no requirement for a VAT-registered business to account for VAT on imports into the UK from the USA in the same way as from other EC states.

The United States has a system of sales tax that is charged at the state level rather than at the federal level. Most states choose to charge it, and the rate varies considerably, from 1% to 16%. However, this should not be added on goods that are exported from the USA into the UK. Instead, UK VAT at 20% is normally paid on import, and a UK VAT-registered business can reclaim that same amount from HMRC by including it as input VAT in box 4 of their regular VAT return, subject to the normal rules about recovering input tax.

[Old_Relic]

The UK workflow is now correct as it starts by showing a cost of £29.99 inc of VAT, which for a paypay payment becomes £24.99 + £5 vat.

I'm not that sure why I need to create and remember a Digital River account if I pay with paypay.

[Ranatuor_Erutron]

Hey, I would totally go with that (and pay it) but Cord said specifically on the web chat before that the prices we see initially should be right, no more extra VAT, for anyone. He also told us to contact customer services and let them know, and they came back with that weird one - I've never had a TAX exemption form in my life, this is about their own website adding things up wrong! I'm getting stressed, especially since I've sent two PMs now to Cord, not one reply nor visible presence on the forums regarding this issue, we had to ask on the twitch feed for feedback.

Plus, there are people who are being charged and some who aren't - all from the same country, all using different methods.

I absolutely love SSG, the people who work for it, the in-game GMs, but right now I am feeling a little let down by the customer service and the lack of official response anywhere outside of a video that not everyone watches. People are still ordering and falling into this mess

[Altair6]

I got in touch with SSG customer account services to explain I am on of the people affected by the VAT issue, and I just got the following reply -



I thought this issue was from THEIR side, not a matter of me proving anything. Suggestions?

I don't know what you've already told them but I'd just send them a copy of your receipt from Digital River and/or your Paypal/whatever account in reply. Say you just want refunding for the extra VAT you've been charged and quote QuartermasterU as your source for the request.

[Altair6]

To be honest with you, I think the issue is on us ( as un in the UK ) rather than on SSG side. I could be wrong of course , so I hope someone with more knowledge in VAT will explain better. I did find this earlier (emphasis is mine) . So to me it seem like the 20% VAT is always applied for goods from the US . I am not an accountant though, so as I said, I could be wrong.

I did pay 20% VAT on my Collector Edition, which I was kind of expecting as other games I bought in the past.

The displayed price is supposed to be the price including VAT. So, £29.99 for Standard is £24.99 plus £5 VAT. If you paid VAT on top of the displayed price you've been overcharged. I only paid £29.99 for the Standard and, as you can see in my earlier post in this thread, the receipt broke the price down as above.

[Amorey]

The displayed price is supposed to be the price including VAT. So, £29.99 for Standard is £24.99 plus £5 VAT. If you paid VAT on top of the displayed price you've been overcharged. I only paid £29.99 for the Standard and, as you can see in my earlier post in this thread, the receipt broke the price down as above.

I will try to write to Account Support tomorrow and see what they say, thanks for the clarification

My invoice

Subtotal: 59.99GBP
Shipping: 0.00GBP


Tax: 12.00GBP
Total: 71.99GBP

If 59.99GBP was already with VAT then yes, I was overcharged on PayPal, I am just not sure who would be responsible for a redound, PayPal or SSG ?

Hopefully it will be clearer tomorrow

[Ranatuor_Erutron]

Hi Amorey,
You were overcharged, 100% certain because...

I took some time away from the PC, in the meantime Cord and SSG have started the ball rolling on sorting this all out. Cord replied back to my PM, saying he'd pass on what I had sent him. Soon after I got an email from CS apologising and they refunding the extra VAT that should not have been added. They've also said I can apply the codes I have, I was holding back from doing that, just in case.

So first thing to do Amorey is to contact SSG Help - https://help.standingstonegames.com/hc/en-us/ (no UK version)
1) You'll have to create an account for there, it's not your normal login details for your LOTRO account, though it will ask you for your username for your LOTRO account as part of the registration.
2) Let them know you pre-ordered Mordor (whichever set) and you have been wrongly charged extra VAT and were told by SSG community manager Cordovan and also by QuartermasterU to contact SSG help to get the refund on the incorrect VAT addition. I gave them my order number and email address I use for the LOTRO account and the order.
3) Any problems, I'd recommend getting in touch with Cordovan via PM, but try the above first. It was only when they started saying I need a tax exemption form that I hit a wall.

[Amorey]

Hi Amorey,
You were overcharged, 100% certain because...

I took some time away from the PC, in the meantime Cord and SSG have started the ball rolling on sorting this all out. Cord replied back to my PM, saying he'd pass on what I had sent him. Soon after I got an email from CS apologising and they refunding the extra VAT that should not have been added. They've also said I can apply the codes I have, I was holding back from doing that, just in case.

So first thing to do Amorey is to contact SSG Help - https://help.standingstonegames.com/hc/en-us/ (no UK version)
1) You'll have to create an account for there, it's not your normal login details for your LOTRO account, though it will ask you for your username for your LOTRO account as part of the registration.
2) Let them know you pre-ordered Mordor (whichever set) and you have been wrongly charged extra VAT and were told by SSG community manager Cordovan and also by QuartermasterU to contact SSG help to get the refund on the incorrect VAT addition. I gave them my order number and email address I use for the LOTRO account and the order.
3) Any problems, I'd recommend getting in touch with Cordovan via PM, but try the above first. It was only when they started saying I need a tax exemption form that I hit a wall.

You are a star, thanks

I will do that tomorrow, it is passed midnight in London so time to get some sleep soon

[Shazzbot]

wow thank you for the helpful information. I didn't realise that they had their own website help thingy. (lotro website is awful and doesn't tell you anything at a glance) Used the ticket thingy so hopefully will get things resolved soon.

[KappaTau]

I can confirm that if you were charged additional VAT in the final checkout process that you were overcharged. I've just been refunded for the extra VAT paid via a ticket from SSG support. Thanks, Morty!

I explained that I was charged extra VAT on my purchase where the item was supposed to be INCLUSIVE of VAT and asked that the extra charge of VAT be refunded.

Don't forget to include your order number in the communication with SSG.

[Ranatuor_Erutron]

The refund to my PayPal account appeared this morning.

There is something that concerns me. While behind the scenes things are moving and being resolved (and I'm ever grateful once they realised how distressing this is), SSG really need to get an official statement on the website and forums regarding the issue and how to resolve it. This is technically fraud and there may well be lots of UK/EU customers thinking the VAT is correct and above board and not even bothering to look into it, Amorey and myself almost did until someone in world chat on Laurelin insisted they hadn't been charged. Not the best way to launch what is the most anticipated expansion for LOTRO in all it's history.

[Gripn]

So first thing to do Amorey is to contact SSG Help - https://help.standingstonegames.com/hc/en-us/ (no UK version)

Thanks for that link, Ranatuor_Erutron. I sent an email to contact@standingstonegames.com (the contact email given in the order confirmation) yesterday, but got no reply. I contacted SSG help using your URL this morning, and got a reply 3 minutes later stating they've now refunded the extra charge on my order and that I should see this returned to my payment method soon. That's a very quick response!