An open letter to the new Standing Stone team

[KitsuneGirl]

I'm talking gear that takes months of dedication and raiding to get. Give us challenging, fun 3-man and 6-man content. Give us some sort of end game that isn't grinding the same quests over and over each day. Nobody wants that and I think you know it.

This is literally the same thing just presented differently.

Here's my wishlist:

I would like for the devs to honestly really consider giving RKs the option to equip daggers cosmetically at the very least.

I would like for the devs to redo the run and walk animations.

I would like the devs to adjust the way elves stand.

I would like the devs to fix the bug when your character is sitting and they halfway rise up to do that silly hip scratching emote.

I would like them to add click to sit to chairs and benches.

More hairstyles for all the races, and maybe redo the Boerning's hair styles, they look rushed to me.

[Eruadarion]

Right now we'd like a raid in Mordor's follow up patch - considered part of the expansion itself - but that's a long time between raids. We realize that. We are excited to create more raids in a variety of scales, and the best thing you can do to support that effort is to play the raids we put out.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Severlin!

May I suggest one thing? As you've mentioned, more than one whole year is indeed a long time between new raid content. How about releasing a liar-type raid in between the yearly big updates? Developing single boss encounters (such as Watcher, Draigoch, Battle for Erebor,...) are pobably significantly less expensive to develop than big Multi-Boss raids, but they may be enough to keep the raiding community growing in LOTRO and most importantly staying with LOTRO until the next big release. Please note that I do NOT suggest to replace one Multi-Boss raid a year with several Single-Boss raids released throughout the year. Not at all! What I would like to see is something small in addition! Do you consider this within the realms of possibility?

[ainor]

I was going to ask almost the same thing as Hurin. But first, best of luck to the LOTRO-team, with the new and the old!

As this thread and many other threads has shown, I'm not the only one with canceled VIP still checking the forums from time to time, looking for some good news.

So, my question to Cordovan and the team;

What has been done recently to improve performance?
Are there any plans to improve performance in the near future?
Does the new situation give you more possibilities to focus on this.

A update in this matter would be much appreciated.

/a

[Fantomex]

TL;DR - bring back epic riad gears

Personally I'd just like to see a increase in quest density to landscape and the return of the fog of war. Haphazardly exploring the region and stumbling across random new characters and quests was always my favorite part of new content, somewhere along the line that got lost without much upside.

[REEMUS]

I've been playing this game since 2008 so I've seen a lot of changes over the years. Sure, I'd love to see what the OP suggested (If we can't get a proper redo of the game from SoA), but what I really want is a redo of the classes.

All of the classes are shadows of what they used to be. Turbine claimed that they removed skills due to "skill bloat", but I have never seen anyone complain about that, ever. In fact, I see quite the opposite. Give the classes more skills to use. It is incredibly lame that a Burglar can't have all the skills he used to have because they're split up among three mediocre trees. On top of that, some classes can't even get into groups because they're so inferior in comparison to others.

The landscape content is too easy, as well. I'm pretty sure I could go the whole game without dying if I avoided the book quest that force kills you. A lack of challenge is not fun, in my opinion. I haven't played the new raid, but I'd actually like to run out of power again. I want my LM to actually have a job to do instead of being another mindless DPS class.

I made a lot of great friends on this game and 90% of them are entirely inactive now since WB bled this game dry. I'd love to see some of them come back again if SSG does a good job.

[Severlin]

This is literally the same thing just presented differently.

Here's my wishlist:

I would like for the devs to honestly really consider giving RKs the option to equip daggers cosmetically at the very least.

I would like for the devs to redo the run and walk animations.

I would like the devs to adjust the way elves stand.

I would like the devs to fix the bug when your character is sitting and they halfway rise up to do that silly hip scratching emote.

I would like them to add click to sit to chairs and benches.

More hairstyles for all the races, and maybe redo the Boerning's hair styles, they look rushed to me.

What if I let it slip that we are looking at substantial avatar revamps for the Mordor expansion?

I think we can all agree that prospect can be both exciting and scary. Avatar preference is super subjective, and even some of the best received game revamps have a percentage of players who prefer the old look. We are looking at providing an option to use the old avatars so we are not forcing players to use newly updated models and animations if they don't want to.

Having two avatar paths then becomes a design challenge if we add new hairs or facial options; the old avatars wouldn't have an equivalent option.

These are the types of design and art challenges we are wrestling with as we work on the expansion.

Sev~

[Severlin]

Lag continues to be a priority. As an example, we just had a rework of the client side effect system to fix lag associated with singular creatures with stacked effects.

The key thing we need from players when talking about lag is specifics on where and how they are seeing problems. It is extremely problematic for us to take action on vague declarations. The more specific the report, the more we have to track it down.

Sev~

[ainor]

Avatar revamps, beautiful landscape, a hundred raids/ year, crafting update etc. etc.

What does it matter if we have stuttering graphics, lag spikes, fps -5 and crash to desktop?

[Ethirielll]

The work you guys did with lag caused by lots of debuffs/buffs on a target was very helpful, I can raid without turning those options to be hidden now.

Also, i've asked a lot before but never really can get an answer, any plans to fix red line guardians?:P not enough to be viable dps for raids/groups but to stop being a vegetable and useless, especially in pvp.

[Pontin_Finnberry]

What if I let it slip that we are looking at substantial avatar revamps for the Mordor expansion?

I think we can all agree that prospect can be both exciting and scary. Avatar preference is super subjective, and even some of the best received game revamps have a percentage of players who prefer the old look. We are looking at providing an option to use the old avatars so we are not forcing players to use newly updated models and animations if they don't want to.

Having two avatar paths then becomes a design challenge if we add new hairs or facial options; the old avatars wouldn't have an equivalent option.

These are the types of design and art challenges we are wrestling with as we work on the expansion.

Sev~

I've always wanted to see some sort of avatar revamp glad your looking to do that and hope it turns out well!

[Silmelin]

What if I let it slip that we are looking at substantial avatar revamps for the Mordor expansion?

I think we can all agree that prospect can be both exciting and scary. Avatar preference is super subjective, and even some of the best received game revamps have a percentage of players who prefer the old look. We are looking at providing an option to use the old avatars so we are not forcing players to use newly updated models and animations if they don't want to.

Having two avatar paths then becomes a design challenge if we add new hairs or facial options; the old avatars wouldn't have an equivalent option.

These are the types of design and art challenges we are wrestling with as we work on the expansion.

Sev~

Yes, this is both exciting and scary! Will there be an option to switch freely back and forth between new and old if this actually happens? Because that would make everyone happy, I think

That way we can all try out the new look, and if we change our mind we can go back, and then if new cool changes are made that makes it our preferred look we can change back to the new one again, etc etc

Also, very important: remember that all men aren't huge muscle-men with square faces and a chin that is wider than the forehead I will be very very sad if my male elves turn into lumberjack humans with pointy ears.

And just so you know: every time I see the thin waist of my elf men I remember that the last revamp changed that so that both slender and muscled male elves had wide waists and a strong muscled look, and that after some of us complained it was changed to slender again, and for that I'm still very grateful

[SnowCrasher]

We are looking at providing an option to use the old avatars so we are not forcing players to use newly updated models and animations if they don't want to.

That is great that you're providing the option to use old avatars for those who may prefer it! That is very thoughtful of you. (I for one am all for new hairstyles)

Now for my highest priority that nobody on this thread probably cares: will we ever get a fiddle or any sort of sustained string instrument?

[Hurin]

Lag continues to be a priority. As an example, we just had a rework of the client side effect system to fix lag associated with singular creatures with stacked effects.

The key thing we need from players when talking about lag is specifics on where and how they are seeing problems. It is extremely problematic for us to take action on vague declarations. The more specific the report, the more we have to track it down.

Sev~

Perhaps the first step is to ditch the term "lag" which is used by this community so broadly as to be almost meaningless.

I documented my own experience with client-based fps issues in this thread. Which was isolated to the client somehow being CPU-bound.

If there can be a solution (or just improvement) for the client being inexplicably CPU-bound where we would normally not expect it to be so, that would "fix" a lot of the complaints of "lag" in one blow.

CPU-usage just seems inordinately high given the complexity of the scenes and environments being rendered. Though I'm loathe to fall back on the "other games look better and run faster!" trope.

Of course, any discussion of such things is often overwhelmed by other discussions of "lag" in the Moors, skill lag, hitching, etc.

Any substantial optimizations to the client would be extremely welcome. But determining why the client uses so many CPU cycles while leaving the graphics subsystem spinning its wheels would be, in my opinion, the best place to start.

Thanks!

--H

Note GPU Usage


Note Core #7 pegged at 100% - it's 4.5GHz Haswell

[JyiigaQuinn]

If you believe anything he says I have some bridges to sell all of you.

[Hurin]

If you believe anything he says I have some bridges to sell all of you.

Thanks for dropping by!

[Incognitas]

LOTRO is not an MMO clone with a different skin. It should remain unique. And what makes it unique is not top tier raider focus but instead having content available for all players. Asking for exclusive rewards only for a tiny fraction of players is not a good idea in my view. "Exclusivity" grants nothing useful except for bragging rights, and this is not the sort of game to head to for people who want bragging rights. No on here ever celebrates server firsts, most players have no idea what the top raiding kinships are and they don't really care as long as there are PUG raids still available. Content gating was almost universally disliked when it was done in Moria. When the game was new anyone could go along to the Rift raid, there were PUGs being run for it all the time, there were very few gear checks (the players who insisted on exclusivity either stuck to their kinship or got onto ignore lists). The raid rewards didn't do much for the base game instead they make the raids easier, which is why some people kept two sets of gear, one for normal instances or soloing and one for the raids. And that was back before LOTRO really found its footing. Yes, there are indeed very very loyal players in this game who want to see the classic raid progression style, but I do not think there are enough of them to keep a game alive by themselves, the game must cater to all the players to survive.

What I see now and I find a huge problem, is T1 instance/raids can be extremely easy even for casual players with somewhat average gear, especially for the scaled content, but T2 is nearly impossible without devoting immense amount of time to it (weekend warriors need not apply). Yes this may be due to the method of scaling I agree there. The Pelennor instances do feel much more challenging at T1 at least. The problem is that there's nothing in between. So you run a super easy instance with a slim chance of getting something you can use other than relics and IXP runes, or you make an attempt at T2 and get nothing except a repair bill. I would like to see this like skirmishes, have a T1 + T2 + T3. Make T3 be tough for the toughest players. Make T1 easy for people who just want to see the content. And then T2 is for those who want to try something more challenging, where you have to do more than just DPS and soak up damage.

The other main thing that is really making me hate the game right now are essences. Ugh. I skipped end game for a couple years because I was getting tired of it, and all the fun stuff is back at the beginning anyway. Now that I'm catching up these are an interminable and pointless grind. Since I'm really only in the game on weekends it feels like I'm never going to catch up. And the ONLY reason this feature is here is to make players grind. And I used to be the guy who said that grinding was optional, but now it isn't if you want to set foot inside the instances and not get one-shotted. Grinding is NOT gameplay, it is a way to keep people spending money without adding new content. I get a 4 slot armor drop for me in an instance and the rest of the group says "wow, lucky!" and I am feeling like I didn't get anything worth keeping. They may as well give away slotted armor for free because it shows up so often for me but getting enough essences of the right type is the hard part. I'm ready to drop end game again. Even as a lifteime account I still hit lots of moments where I just want to delete all my characters and leave forever.

One thing we could have which I've asked for before: an alliance mechanism. Not just social channels, but a way to get multiple kinships linked, see who's logged on, see who's running what, etc.

[Hurin]

"Exclusivity" grants nothing useful except for bragging rights,

This is the foundational premise upon which so many other faulty arguments are built. And it's been explained why this is not the case so many times that I simply can't bear to explain it all over again. Doing so clearly serves no purpose. Because it will only reappear in the very next thread that pretends to discuss such issues seriously.

[NeebPlayer]

What if I let it slip that we are looking at substantial avatar revamps for the Mordor expansion?

I think we can all agree that prospect can be both exciting and scary. Avatar preference is super subjective, and even some of the best received game revamps have a percentage of players who prefer the old look. We are looking at providing an option to use the old avatars so we are not forcing players to use newly updated models and animations if they don't want to.

Having two avatar paths then becomes a design challenge if we add new hairs or facial options; the old avatars wouldn't have an equivalent option.

These are the types of design and art challenges we are wrestling with as we work on the expansion.

Sev~

New character models will definitely take some getting used to for everyone. I'm saying this from the perspective of someone who absolutely thinks the old male elf was way way better than the one you changed it to. I hated the new one from the start, but I got used to it and it doesn't bother me any more. So if the majority of players want updated character models, and I believe we do, we'll just have to stand behind the devs when they come forward with them, because we asked for them. Even if some of us may not like the new models, we can't blame you for not being able to please everyone. I guess this is just my way of saying, make up your mind and do it. And don't support 2 systems cuz that's just gonna cause problems in the long run and stand in the way of further development. Just my 2 cents.

Plus they would have to make some difficult decisions:

1) They would have to commit to making the game perform. Performance, I believe, is a key metric for player retention.

2) They need to let the players control the loot systems. Every instance, one chest, one roll. Let kinships determine who rolls when. It gives raiding kins a reason to exist

3) You can't let us burn ourselves out on raiding. We will. Every instance should have a lock.

4) You have to remove the barriers to lapsed players returning. Keeping levels is fine, but the super grindy things like Essences, and Imbued LI's, have to go. If you have to grind 3 months before you can play with the guys who you want to play with, you're just going to quit. They need to create a metric of play hours to take a character from 75 to the very pinnacle of geared at 105. And then figure out what it will take to reduce those play hours by 75%.

5) You have to fix PVP. That's improve performance, remove audacity, remove outposts, add ranks probably. PVP is where many raiders go to try out their gear they got while raiding. Even if they don't actually go, they think about it, and that alone can be enough of a compusion to keep playing

6) You have to tone down the dps and stat inflation. The numbers are getting so big, they are becoming meaningless. There are so many stats, and so many different stats that contribute to dps, that it's impossible to keep up with unless you're a full time player, and there just aren't that many full time players left.

7) Related to 6, you have to find other ways to beat bosses besides DPS races. Maybe it's different in the new raid, but the problem with the old ones were they were all the same. All of the daily runs are the same.

@Sev still:

I would prioritize every single one of these things before a new raid. #4 and #7 especially.

[zeroxes]

One thing we could have which I've asked for before: an alliance mechanism. Not just social channels, but a way to get multiple kinships linked, see who's logged on, see who's running what, etc.

This is my favorite part of your post. I more or less agree with your sentiments about appealing to a large player base -- not just gear-hungry raiders. The Alliance idea is wonderful though. I really think it could add a layer of depth and interactivity in a game that often feels kind of empty.

[wispsong]

What if I let it slip that we are looking at substantial avatar revamps for the Mordor expansion?

I think we can all agree that prospect can be both exciting and scary. Avatar preference is super subjective, and even some of the best received game revamps have a percentage of players who prefer the old look. We are looking at providing an option to use the old avatars so we are not forcing players to use newly updated models and animations if they don't want to.

Having two avatar paths then becomes a design challenge if we add new hairs or facial options; the old avatars wouldn't have an equivalent option.

These are the types of design and art challenges we are wrestling with as we work on the expansion.

Sev~

Please NO.

I have gone in wow through the model/animation changes. Yes, the option for the old was there for one xpac. Now new animations and in some cases new models are forced. I will never return there because they murdered my characters. I can't stand the new animations/models.

[Yuffie67]

What if I let it slip that we are looking at substantial avatar revamps for the Mordor expansion?

I think we can all agree that prospect can be both exciting and scary. Avatar preference is super subjective, and even some of the best received game revamps have a percentage of players who prefer the old look. We are looking at providing an option to use the old avatars so we are not forcing players to use newly updated models and animations if they don't want to.

Having two avatar paths then becomes a design challenge if we add new hairs or facial options; the old avatars wouldn't have an equivalent option.

These are the types of design and art challenges we are wrestling with as we work on the expansion.

Sev~

With so many players on Min end of req (my 3gb machine CTD new content, and I have pretty much been left behind...) for this game, low poly models kinda need happen anyway...

Honestly, New hairs in general would be awesome, and dinky step towards making world abit more varied.

As for new character models, its always touchy, cause as someone pointed out in older thread (they remade the models) and happen to do many of options I had used on my Hunter, And i was just... "ugh... are we even looking at same thing?"

You could just revamp that whole thing, give everyone 1 or 2 revamp character makers, and let us rebuild who we are. And have menu show are old one, next to new one.
Heck even leave old ones alone, and let people use them under rule set of nothing new for you. (for now!)

[Incognitas]

And it's been explained why this is not the case so many times that I simply can't bear to explain it all over again.

I have seen all of those arguments. They don't convince me. Different people have different assumptions that they assume are true, and you can't build an argument on top of them until everyone agrees. And no one will ever agree as the issues are political and sociological in nature so that you can't apply logic to prove anything anyway.

(and another request, some way that it doesn't accidentally log me into my f2p account when I want to post...)

[Incognitas]

This is my favorite part of your post. I more or less agree with your sentiments about appealing to a large player base -- not just gear-hungry raiders. The Alliance idea is wonderful though. I really think it could add a layer of depth and interactivity in a game that often feels kind of empty.

Right now we use a chat channel for this but is clumsy. I have to use my friend's list but I can't remember who's an alt of who. Right now we can have members from a light RP kinship, a crafting kinship, a group content kinship, a music kinship, and a couple with no kinships at all, all grouping weekly for content. Plus there are players who have alts forming their own kinship because they want to buy a personal kinship house. Hard to keep track of everyone.

[beorf]

Lag continues to be a priority. As an example, we just had a rework of the client side effect system to fix lag associated with singular creatures with stacked effects.

The key thing we need from players when talking about lag is specifics on where and how they are seeing problems. It is extremely problematic for us to take action on vague declarations. The more specific the report, the more we have to track it down.
Sev~

One thing I think would help a great deal is to look at how client-server acknowledgements work for character movement: there seems to be some requirement for a server acknowledgement before the client-side updates, which results in laggy movement.

In contrast, World of Warcraft does not seem to have this server-side verification for movement: character movement is instantaneous and client-side only. You can test this in WoW by disconnecting your LAN cable while playing: you can still move around normally for quite a while before you get a disconnect message.

My guess is this would eliminate a huge amount of the lag perception and complaints.

[Dolamrothdame]

What if I let it slip that we are looking at substantial avatar revamps for the Mordor expansion?

I think we can all agree that prospect can be both exciting and scary. Avatar preference is super subjective, and even some of the best received game revamps have a percentage of players who prefer the old look. We are looking at providing an option to use the old avatars so we are not forcing players to use newly updated models and animations if they don't want to.

Having two avatar paths then becomes a design challenge if we add new hairs or facial options; the old avatars wouldn't have an equivalent option.

These are the types of design and art challenges we are wrestling with as we work on the expansion.

Sev~

So excited to have you say this! I love my characters, but I'd love them more if they didn't look so rubbery.