"drifting back towards individual loot" - PLEASE DON'T!

[Eruadarion]

So in the recent interview (link) Dr. Octothorpe said the following:

part of that is that in the future we have some big plans about how we want to change the way we give out loot and really seriously rethink the loot that is given out through challenge content like raids. We started to look seriously at starting to break some of that ground, and as he said, we decided not to at this time but those plans definitely apply to future endeavors. We want to look at drifting back towards individual loot and do some other ways of getting stuff. He said articulately; “other ways of getting goods to players that will leave everybody feeling good about the experience and rewarded for taking on the content [quoting Severlin from earlier -ed].

In my opinion this would be a terrible decision if we're talking about challenging content like raids, specifically new T2C raid content. We already had the individual loot system in RoR (level cap 85) and it was one of the main reasons why the Erebor raid cluster recieved a lot of negative feedback. A lot of players I know left LOTRO for exactely that reason. It was utterly frustrating for the vast majority of the T2C raiding community.

Individual loot works well for landscape mobs or T1 PUG raids, but for raiding kinships it's just awful. First of all, I want to explain how indiviual loot works:
After defeating a boss / looting a chest, every player automatically recieves loot, ususally based on his/her class. For example if I'm playing a Captain, I will have a let's say 15% chance of looting a barter coin for a Captain armour piece, a 25% chance of looting some Might jewellary and a 100% chance of looting some general raid currency and runes and relicts. So in theory, it's possible that I will recieve awesome loot multiple times in a row, whereas my kinmates are unlucky and recieve nothing but relics. And this is exactely the huge problem of this whole individual loot idea: Your group has zero control over who get's what!

This will inevitably lead to situations such as:
- some players recieving great loot all the time.
- some players never recieving the items they want.
- some players recieving unique items they already have.
- some players recieving items (e.g. armour barter tokens) even though other players/classes had a much more urgent need for these items for the raid group's progression.

It will also make all these well-established systems like DKP reduntant. In my opinion, having control over loot distribution is actually part of what makes raiding both a more social as well as a more competetive experience. A good raiding kinship will even have it's own "loot distrubution strategy", for exampe armour pieces for DPS classes first, class items for healers first,... etc. Why do you want to take all of this away from us and instead let us suffer (again) from this terrible RNG.


Now, if the main reason for this step into the wrong direction is because you are unable to fix the T2 locks spreading in T1 instances bug, I have simple solution for you:
Get rid of T1/T2 version of the instance and instead simply dublicate the instance in the instance finder panel. Name the first instance "TotDT -- Tier 1" with a fixed T1 difficulty and the second one "TotDT -- Tier 2" with a fixed T2 difficulty. Now you have two seperate instances in the instance finder panel which are accessed indepentently et voila, no raid locks shared in the T1 version. It's not the most beautiful solution but it will work.


Thank you for reading!

[Pontin_Finnberry]

I like this idea Dr. O posted, i wouldn't mind seeing loot change its not bad in my opinion, unlike what your saying. an also none will have control, where does it say we won't? I'm sure we will still have control in some way

[Eruadarion]

where does it say we won't? I'm sure we will still have control in some way

Well, having no control over someone else's loot is essentially the definition of individual loot, isn't it?

[Oelle]

if everyone gets tokens from every bosskill and one needs several tokens to trade in for one piece of equipment, its individual loot, has no RNG and is fair. Nothing wrong with that imo.

[Eruadarion]

if everyone gets tokens from every bosskill and one needs several tokens to trade in for one piece of equipment, its individual loot, has no RNG and is fair. Nothing wrong with that imo.

It would be fair but also the most boring thing I can imagine.

In my opinion it is an essential part of the the whole "raiding experience" if you finally kill some big bad boss after hours of wiping and then /roll on some rare shiny loot. The classic Master Loot system is just perfect for raiding kinships and I see zero need for a change. We already went through this once (RoR and HD era) until Turbine finally decided to bring back a reasonable loot system with the Osgiliath Cluster. Why go a step backwards and do the same mistake again?

[Oelle]

some like rng. some dont.
if i were to make an mmo, id put in a choice for everyone which of two lootsystems he wants to use.
both would in average lead to the same number of loot, but one definitite (like one token per boss, one item per 3 tokens) and the other with rng (like 1/3 chance for an item per boss).
but thats just me dreaming. i dont think ill ever make an mmo.

and if someone now says: but first-boss-farms... there are lots of ways to make that useless. like loot getting better the further you are in instances.
or locks. or just one final chest for finishing the whole instance. or boss-specific-loot.

one can even combine both systems. like getting half number of tokens plus having half dropchance of items directly.

[Denhith]

if everyone gets tokens from every bosskill and one needs several tokens to trade in for one piece of equipment, its individual loot, has no RNG and is fair. Nothing wrong with that imo.

+10. The OP seems to be in favor of a system that is even more RNG than the one the devs are proposing for the future. Which, to me, makes no sense whatsoever.

It's about time and effort put in vs. the rewards being commensurable. So, if in addition to folks having a chance of individual loot dropping for them, they also get tokens for raid completion (which can be used to acquire additional gear) that is a much better system.

[Marancil]

if everyone gets tokens from every bosskill and one needs several tokens to trade in for one piece of equipment, its individual loot, has no RNG and is fair. Nothing wrong with that imo.

As long as the boss is not behind a T2C Raid, perhaps?

I see, and hope, this as a way to actually make content available for the casual player who makes "an effort" to get it. I looong thought Crafting was that effort, but with the recent development in to Morgul Crests for High end armour, well, that is just not so. Crafting needs a boost and it must be worthwhile doing this. After all, hypothetically speaking, even Faramir's Armour must have been crafted.

[NeebPlayer]

For starters, they said no.

[Arnenna]

It's about time and effort put in vs. the rewards being commensurable. So, if in addition to folks having a chance of individual loot dropping for them, they also get tokens for raid completion (which can be used to acquire additional gear) that is a much better system.

Agree totally.

[siipperi]

Agreed with Eru. All raid loot should be classic style box roll, which everyone roll for. Individual loot not only spoil fun and excitement of rolling but also completely destroy attempts to doing fair DKP and doesn't award people who show up on planned time from night after a night.

Individual loot barely works on smaller 3 and 6 man instances, and it's just disaster on the raid scale. They should just drive more for armor/item token drop per chest (like now on totdt) and everyone rolls for it. Individual loot is just a pain when you see one guy receiving wanted armor piece 3 times in a row and he doesn't even need it.

Collecting barter tokens in style of (recent example) Osgiliath is just a pain. I rather take system where we know we get loot rather than run this tens of times to get item. Kins can work loot distribution with pre planned token sharing and DKP. There is absolutely no need to make people grind for items for tens of runs, even when some people might not need more tokens. This just makes gearing of an alts absolutely a pain. Instead of getting easily group together with some of mains and some of alts and getting item on few runs you are forced to do exactly same grind again. In case of Osgiliath, another 120 runs...

[Denhith]

Agreed with Eru. All raid loot should be classic style box roll, which everyone roll for. Individual loot not only spoil fun and excitement of rolling but also completely destroy attempts to doing fair DKP and doesn't award people who show up on planned time from night after a night.

Individual loot barely works on smaller 3 and 6 man instances, and it's just disaster on the raid scale. They should just drive more for armor/item token drop per chest (like now on totdt) and everyone rolls for it. Individual loot is just a pain when you see one guy receiving wanted armor piece 3 times in a row and he doesn't even need it.

Collecting barter tokens in style of (recent example) Osgiliath is just a pain. I rather take system where we know we get loot rather than run this tens of times to get item. Kins can work loot distribution with pre planned token sharing and DKP. There is absolutely no need to make people grind for items for tens of runs, even when some people might not need more tokens. This just makes gearing of an alts absolutely a pain. Instead of getting easily group together with some of mains and some of alts and getting item on few runs you are forced to do exactly same grind again. In case of Osgiliath, another 120 runs...

You're not making any sense here at all. Not flaming you, not trolling, just being blunt.
The point is, you don't know that you will get loot. The RNG is so all over the place a full raid can do a single run 20 times (with master loot in full effect) and 1 item will drop for 1 person. What is the point of actually having master loot if it's not guaranteed that each run at least 1 item will drop? You're complaining about people grinding for "tens of runs" under the barter system, when in reality under the system you prefer it could take someone "hundreds of runs" due to the awful RNG. Again, that just makes no sense.

Have individual gear drop in the raid. On top of that, you gain coins for each run so that you can barter for guaranteed additional gear. In the final box at the end of the raid, put in a unique housing item, steed, armor/weapon cosmetic or pet for the folks that are still clinging to the old school "fun and excitement of rolling".

[Arnenna]

You're not making any sense here at all. Not flaming you, not trolling, just being blunt.
The point is, you don't know that you will get loot. The RNG is so all over the place a full raid can do a single run 20 times (with master loot in full effect) and 1 item will drop for 1 person. What is the point of actually having master loot if it's not guaranteed that each run at least 1 item will drop? You're complaining about people grinding for "tens of runs" under the barter system, when in reality under the system you prefer it could take someone "hundreds of runs" due to the awful RNG. Again, that just makes no sense.

Have individual gear drop in the raid. On top of that, you gain coins for each run so that you can barter for guaranteed additional gear. In the final box at the end of the raid, put in a unique housing item, steed, armor/weapon cosmetic or pet for the folks that are still clinging to the old school "fun and excitement of rolling".

Again, agreed. They could even do both. Individual loot drop and barter tokens, and still have the RNG based chance piece for a roll in the chest, along with chances of the other fluff you mentioned. More options - more people want to complete it.

And I disagree that kins can control it themselves, because sometimes - they don't, and are very biased about it. Ever see a kin run that is short on numbers take in a couple of stragglers then they start logging their alts at the final chest and exclude the non kinnies so they can gear their own alts? I have. Oops, we forgot to say you were only here to help us get our gear. That sort of thing should never be possible, but it is.

[Eruadarion]

The OP seems to be in favor of a system that is even more RNG than the one the devs are proposing for the future. Which, to me, makes no sense whatsoever.

Not at all, actually.

I'll explain it to you in more detail:

Scenario 1 - Classic Master loot system in Saruman T2C during Isengart expansion:
A kinship finally defeats Saruman after many hours wiping, everyone is excited for the loot.
Raid leader: "Awesome, we have 2 SotEKs, 2 Cloak Clasps and 1 teal Might Earring! We'll roll on the Clasps first!"
Player 1 and Player 2: "We got our Clasps last week, we'll pass!"
Player 3: "I'll be on holidays in the next three weeks, I think it's better for our raid if someone else gets it!"
Player 4: "I'm a tank and I won't use the shiny cloak for tanking, better give it to some DPS class!"
Raid leader: "Great, so Players 5 - 12 please /roll for the Clasps now".
Everyone is thrilled and hopes for high numbers.
Raid leader: "Player 7 and Player 9 have the highest numbers! Congrats!"
Everyone: "Congrats, well deserved!"
Raid leader: "Now we will roll on the SotEKs!"
Player 7 and Player 9: "We already got Clasps today, we'll pass on the SotEKs!"
...
...etc.

EVERYONE IS HAPPY!

Scenario 2 - Individual loot system in Battle for Erebor T2C during RoR expansion:
A kinship finally defeats BFE after many hours wiping, everyone is excited for the loot.
Raid leader: "Good job everyone, I'll loot the challenge chest now!"
Everyone recieves his/her individual loot.
Player 1: "Oh this is my fifth golden class item, too bad my class doesn't really need it."
Player 2: "Wow only relics for me, this is the third week and I'm looting nothing but relics. I wish I had at least one golden item because it would be awesome for my class"
Player 3: "Nice I got a golden item as well, I'm a Minstrel and it's not viable for healing spec but at least I can use it in the moors. Oh wait, I don't actually PvP."
Random dude in GLFF: "Look at me guys, I have only gold items equipped because I'm super lucky and you're not. Deal with it. Haha!"
...
... etc.

EVERYONE IS FRUSTRATED (except the random dude in chat).

Scenario 3 as suggested by Oelle:
Raid currency for everyone.
Player 1: "Cool I only need 7 more runs until I can barter my first armour piece."
Player 2: "Good for you, I still need 11 more runs."
Raid leader: "Guys? Aren't you excited?"
Player 3: "Yeah no, not really. Can we continue with the next boss already?".
...
... etc.

EVERYONE IS BORED



Now, which scenario do you prefer?

[Arnenna]

Not at all, actually.

I'll explain it to you in more detail:

Scenario 1 - Classic Master loot system in Saruman T2C during Isengart expansion:
A kinship finally defeats Saruman after many hours wiping, everyone is excited for the loot.
Raid leader: "Awesome, we have 2 SotEKs, 2 Cloak Clasps and 1 teal Might Earring! We'll roll on the Clasps first!"
Player 1 and Player 2: "We got our Clasps last week, we'll pass!"
Player 3: "I'll be on holidays in the next three weeks, I think it's better for our raid if someone else gets it!"
Player 4: "I'm a tank and I won't use the shiny cloak for tanking, better give it to some DPS class!"
Raid leader: "Great, so Players 5 - 12 please /roll for the Clasps now".
Everyone is thrilled and hopes for high numbers.
Raid leader: "Player 7 and Player 9 have the highest numbers! Congrats!"
Everyone: "Congrats, well deserved!"
Raid leader: "Now we will roll on the SotEKs!"
Player 7 and Player 9: "We already got Clasps today, we'll pass on the SotEKs!"
...
...etc.

EVERYONE IS HAPPY!

Scenario 2 - Individual loot system in Battle for Erebor T2C during RoR expansion:
A kinship finally defeats BFE after many hours wiping, everyone is excited for the loot.
Raid leader: "Good job everyone, I'll loot the challenge chest now!"
Everyone recieves his/her individual loot.
Player 1: "Oh this is my fifth golden class item, too bad my class doesn't really need it."
Player 2: "Wow only relics for me, this is the third week and I'm looting nothing but relics. I wish I had at least one golden item because it would be awesome for my class"
Player 3: "Nice I got a golden item as well, I'm a Minstrel and it's not viable for healing spec but at least I can use it in the moors. Oh wait, I don't actually PvP."
Random dude in GLFF: "Look at me guys, I have only gold items equipped because I'm super lucky and you're not. Deal with it. Haha!"
...
... etc.

EVERYONE IS FRUSTRATED (except the random dude in chat).

Scenario 3 as suggested by Oelle:
Raid currency for everyone.
Player 1: "Cool I only need 7 more runs until I can barter my first armour piece."
Player 2: "Good for you, I still need 11 more runs."
Raid leader: "Guys? Aren't you excited?"
Player 3: "Yeah no, not really. Can we continue with the next boss already?".
...
... etc.

EVERYONE IS BORED



Now, which scenario do you prefer?

I prefer option 2, where trade in is possible for duplicated items.
After that I go for option 3 - I have no quibble with working hard for something at the end of the slog.

Option one is ideal for organised kin runs. A lot of people pug though, and then it doesn't go as you presented it.

[Eruadarion]

What is the point of actually having master loot if it's not guaranteed that each run at least 1 item will drop? You're complaining about people grinding for "tens of runs" under the barter system, when in reality under the system you prefer it could take someone "hundreds of runs" due to the awful RNG. Again, that just makes no sense.

Except that IT IS GUARANTEED that each run at least 1 item will drop. Did you ever do Rift, DN, OD, BG, ToO?
Let's use ToO as an example, there will ALWAYS be a SotEK in the challenge chest!
Same for Throne of the Dread Terror T2C. There will ALWAYS be at least one armour piece in the challenge chest to /roll on.

[Egilric]

Scenario 3 as suggested by Oelle:
Raid currency for everyone.
Player 1: "Cool I only need 7 more runs until I can barter my first armour piece."
Player 2: "Good for you, I still need 11 more runs."
Raid leader: "Guys? Aren't you excited?"
Player 3: "Yeah no, not really. Can we continue with the next boss already?".
...
... etc.

EVERYONE IS BORED

Disagree with this representation totally.

A Raid Token is the perfect solution to the issue of loot rules affecting lock, AND a solution the ever-present problem of RNG loot being unuseable, or already obtained.

If every boss rewards a Token to every player, and if Tokens are rewarded at the end of run depending on completion goals then EVERYONE makes tangible progress towards their desired gear goals EVERY TIME they take part. This is the most effective method of keeping the most number of players engaged for the longest period of time.

RNG Loot - group wide or at the individual level - is by and large the most frustrating aspect of MMORPGs because it simply doesn't reward effort in an equitable manner. You may get the loot you want first run, other players won't get it for 20 runs, but most won't last 20 runs, they'll be bored to death of the content by then AND frustrated at never getting any loot they can use.

IMO the very best "loot reward" system LOTRO has ever had was with Hytbold.
Everyone made tangible progress towards their own desired loot set every time they engaged with the Hytbold dailies.

People DON'T want hings handed to them for no effort (that would be boring) but they do want to see that every time they make the effort they are tangibly closer to their goal than before, and RNG (Individual or Group) simply does not achieve that.

Look at SWTOR - with Data Crystals everyone knows exactly how many crytsals they need for their gear, and they also know exactly how many crystals will be given as Quest/FP/Etc Rewards for their efforts. Thus they know that they are always making tangible progression towards their gear-set.

RNG Raid Loot is just a cheap and lazy way to manufacture false replayability - but it actually turns players off from replaying the content.

All The Best

[Denhith]

Except that IT IS GUARANTEED that each run at least 1 item will drop. Did you ever do Rift, DN, OD, BG, ToO?
Let's use ToO as an example, there will ALWAYS be a SotEK in the challenge chest!

That is simply not true. Sorry, I realize it may have been awhile for people but I have very distinct memories of completing ToO on T2C and a SoTEK not being in the challenge chest.

[Eruadarion]

Option one is ideal for organised kin runs. A lot of people pug though, and then it doesn't go as you presented it.

This is exactely my point. Option one is ideal for organised kin runs. As I stated in my very first post, this thread is about T2C raid rewards. Now, who does most (successful) T2C raid runs? Organised kins, obviously.

Current system in Throne of the Dread Terror:
T1 uses individual loot, T2 and T2C uses classic loot. So we already have the best solution for everyone, don't we?
This thread is all about the fact that a developer said they plan to re-introduce individual loot for T2C raids. And I strongly disagree with this idea.

[maxjenius]

OP spins 3 goofy hypothetical scenarios and then offers them as "evidence."

[DisplTru]

IMO the very best "loot reward" system LOTRO has ever had was with Hytbold.

[Denhith]

In my humble opinion the loot system currently in FFXIV is simply the best (especially for the "T2C crowd"--yet another label this game doesn't need if I'm to be honest)
I won't bore you too much with the details, but it relies heavily on the barter system. But they also include additional, unique items in the final chest of the instance.
However (and this is probably the key to it's success)...they have the luxury of having multiple avenues (granted, all group content) of acquiring those barter tokens (at least 4 to 6 4-man dungeons, 2 24-man raids, and 4 8-man raids)
In addition, each one of those pieces of group content drops separate gear or items that can be acquired for even more gear.
I won't even get into the Savage content, which is a another whole tier of group content and rewards.

BLUF, I know that at the end of 2-3 months I am guaranteed to have a fully kitted (with high ilvl gear) toon. Work=Reward. Period.

[Geventh]

Agree with everything Eru! Please dont make the same mistake again.
What I would like suggest is adding normal coins, relics, ixp maybe even crystals, remembrance & solvents to a third chest as individual loot with some RNG. Noone will complain about that because you can trade the rare ones anyway and its less pain for the leader to distribute them.

[Eruadarion]

OP spins 3 goofy hypothetical scenarios and then offers them as "evidence."

Scenario 1 is not at all hypothetical. I'm in raiding kinship since I started playing LOTRO years ago and this is exactely how loot distribution works in organised raiding kins.
Scenario 2 might be exaggerated but I've witnessed countless similar scenarios during RoR times. Someone getting the same shiny loot again and again and others running instances literally hundreds of times without ever seeing a shiny.
Scenario 3 is of course hypothetical because it's based on a theoretical suggestion.

[Denhith]

Someone getting the same shiny loot again and again and others running instances literally hundreds of times without ever seeing a shiny.

LOL, which is happening right now, under the system you prefer.

/facepalm.