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  1. #1
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    U18.1 - Guardian Changes

    Recently, there have been a number of changes that affect the Guardian class. We'd like to share some of our thoughts on Guardian design, and clarify some of our goals.


    1. The Guardian is not an AOE DPS class.


    The intended design for the Guardian is that the class should be a top-flight tank with great survivability and reasonable DPS, but with less ability to burn down groups of mobs like a Champion can. Traits like the old Insult to Injury and Radiate made it so that Guardians could produce AOE DPS numbers similar to a Champion in some content. The recent changes are intended to leave Guardian single-target damage unaffected, while reducing their ability to quickly kill multiple mobs at once.


    We recieved feedback showing that before the Radiate and Insult to Injury changes, it was easy for a Guardian to pull several mobs and burn them down very quickly, meaning that a class that was not designed for high DPS was running through solo content faster than a Champion. This is not intentional, given our current class balance direction.


    2. Guardian self-healing was a little out of control.


    Guardian self-healing was much higher than we wanted it to be, and one major goal for these changes was to bring that healing more in line with where we want it.


    The recent changes on Guardians affect their healing in two main ways: directly and indirectly. A direct change was the Thrill of Battle internal cooldown. By having an internal cooldown on Thrill of Battle, you can't have it proc several times at once with a single Whirling Retaliation, reducing the maximum burst value of Guardian heals. The number of heals that a Guardian could get at one time with Whirling Retaliation was much higher than we intended. An indirect change was with Prey on the Weak. Since Radiate and Insult to Injury give you less bleeds in general, Prey on the Weak will proc less.


    As an aside, we’re aware of the bug that makes tiered-up Radiated bleeds do far less damage than they should. We’re working on a fix, which should be up soon.


    Thanks,
    EdgeCase
    Definitely a human.

  2. #2
    What is reasonable dps?

    Should a red traited guard hit 60% of a top dps class damage, 80%, 90%, 95% ? If you only use metrics like "reasonable" then it just seems like your being intentionally vague. Guardians have a trait line dedicated to doing dps, it would seem from a player perspective that if you use that for your build that one would end up with character that it should be fairly competitive with other classes doing dps (for me that means 95% of top tier, you can pick single target or aoe, doesnt have to be both).

    Healing definitely needed to be toned down, singe target damage though is really weak, and hammer down as the highest tier skill in the dps tier is really weak compared to other single target skills and does nothing to help out out single target dps on signature mobs or higher.

  3. #3
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    Can you account for the drop in bleed criticals we are seeing and if a bug will these be addressed at the same time? See posted combat logs in the guardian forums.

    Have you read the last minstrel dev diary, Blue was for single target heals and Red for single target damage, are you going to #### them too?

    You may think Guardian AE DPS was coming close to that of a Champ AE champ but this is far from the case as my poorly equipped champs mows through a target rich environment, the Guardian has half the damage output even before the changes.

    Can you acknowledge the broken threat copy of taunts? See videos posted on the Guardian Forums by several including a disillusioned ex lotro streamer. The intention of the revamped Guardian with the change in HD of the threat mechanics tied our damage output to threat. Why is it that we then continue to have poor dps on a single target. Even with 300% or 400% threat to damage we don't deliver the numbers that DPS Wardens and RK's put out. With the Imbuement system we have severely reduced target numbers, yet Champs' target numbers increase.

    This combination leaves us with a ever so boring taunt spam when we tank, the solo DPS feats were to combat this boredom and you are suggesting we suck it up or play another class.

    Mac

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    757
    Quote Originally Posted by EdgeCase View Post
    Recently, there have been a number of changes that affect the Guardian class. We'd like to share some of our thoughts on Guardian design, and clarify some of our goals.


    1. The Guardian is not an AOE DPS class.


    that Guardians could produce AOE DPS numbers similar to a Champion in some content.


    Thanks,
    EdgeCase

    DPS number were not even close... I know champs who can do 40k DPS AOE parse on some pack of mobs (in dome of stars, just before entering the dome)...

    As for healing, you nerfed the only thing that wasn't healing us. I have no pleasure to say this, but it seems you don't know the guardian well. In order to nerf our hability to self heal, you should have remove our 6th red line bonus.

    Anyway, when I see what a warden can do : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYSqulkNXTo I don't understand why guardian needed to be nerf. We were just having fun in T1 instances and open world orc camps...

  5. #5
    Isn't warden supposed to be primarily a tank class too? But they are 2nd best at AoE and 1st/2nd at ST DPS.
    Im fine if you want to bring back the old class balance but self-healing on guard is still too high.
    Pray on the Weak should be just removed for actual damage increase/Critical Damage Multiplier increase of our skills.

    What I didnt like about my guard since HD revamp was RNG proc damage/heal with ridiculous initial bleed spam fest. Our actual skills were doing way too less damage compared to Tier 10 inital bleed & pray of the weak damage. The other thing I hate is the "new" threat system, which is also why wardens got that insane DPS boost to hold aggro...

    Bring on the Pain trait esp. coupled with 2 2-sets reducing CD down to 20s is broken in PvMP.

  6. #6
    So you thought you were nerfing our self healing, but really just nerfed our DPS, especially ST DPS. Our AOE DPS is nothing compared to champs and wardens. Not even close. You really should look at nerfing Wardens DPS and self healing, if you are trying to get classes more reasonably balanced. Why would you not test these changes before going live with them? It is obvious that they were not tested because of the bleed bug.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Gardhik View Post
    Anyway, when I see what a warden can do : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYSqulkNXTo I don't understand why guardian needed to be nerf. We were just having fun in T1 instances and open world orc camps...
    I dont have any Guardian experience, but i will chime in and say i went through that instance with my hunter and my friend using a guardian, we were level 105 with pretty good gear, all teal and above with a few gold and top essences, and we were not able to beat that instance without getting a minstrel with us at the very end.

    Having a warden able to fully tank that whole thing at T2 does make me feel like i should have just rolled a warden, and then i wouldn't even need a fellowship when my friends arent online.........

  8. #8
    if you only wanted to have only one heal by thrill of battle per skilluse, a 1 sec internal cd would have been enough.
    btw: i can not remember thrill of battle multiple times on one skilluse and that is not in the talent description. so 1 sec internal cd would be totally fine.

    what i do see is, that prey on the weak procced and still procs 3-5 times on one sweeping cut. and it heals 5% per healtick, not only 2.5% per tick like thrill of battle did.
    so, if you want to nerf absurd selfheal in red, put an internal cooldown on prey on the weak.
    20sec internal cooldown on thrill of battle just makes the talent totally useless. i agree, that it should not proc several times on one skill. but that could be fixed with 1 sec internal cd. not 20. 20 just destroys the talent completely.


    if you want, that guards are no aoe dps class, then thats fine. its a decision i can understand. i felt the aoe dps to high as well for a tanking class with high survivability. single target dps is one of the weakest if not the weakest, aoe was quite big, but not top like champ.




    still, wardens selfheal is MUCH stronger and needs a nerf much more than guardians. and they do MUCH more damage. aoe and single target.
    Diskutierer, Fragenbeantworter, Twinker, Händler, Handwerker und Gründer der 'Gemeinschaft der freien Völker' auf Belegaer.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by EdgeCase View Post
    Recently, there have been a number of changes that affect the Guardian class. We'd like to share some of our thoughts on Guardian design, and clarify some of our goals.

    1. The Guardian is not an AOE DPS class.

    The intended design for the Guardian is that the class should be a top-flight tank with great survivability and reasonable DPS, but with less ability to burn down groups of mobs like a Champion can. Traits like the old Insult to Injury and Radiate made it so that Guardians could produce AOE DPS numbers similar to a Champion in some content. The recent changes are intended to leave Guardian single-target damage unaffected, while reducing their ability to quickly kill multiple mobs at once.

    We recieved feedback showing that before the Radiate and Insult to Injury changes, it was easy for a Guardian to pull several mobs and burn them down very quickly, meaning that a class that was not designed for high DPS was running through solo content faster than a Champion. This is not intentional, given our current class balance direction.

    Thanks,
    EdgeCase
    We have a Red DPS trait line for a reason. If you don't want us to clear through content solo faster than a Champion then remove our Prey on the Weak heals or implement the pseudo-code that I sent you for diminishing returns on PotW and leave our Radiate alone. At the very least you could've increased our single-target DPS since you nerfed our AoE DPS.

    This code is only for PotW heals;
    iH = heals.length;
    healFactor = 1;
    minHealFactor = 0.35;
    while (iH) {
    heals[iH] *= healFactor;
    if (healFactor > minHealFactor) healFactor *= 0.85;
    else if (healFactor < minHealFactor) healFactor = minHealFactor;
    iH--;
    }

    This diminishing returns code would guarantee that our first PotW heal would heal us at 100%, while each subsequent heal in the battle round tick (where each battle round tick may have several PotW heals queued up) would heal us at reduced heals down to a minimum diminishing returns heal factor. This solution is a heck of a lot better than nerfing Radiate.

    The nerf to Thrill of Battle was unnecessary as critical hit heals did not give us nearly the amount of heals you thought they gave us. Now in a 3 minute battle we're lucky to get 7 heals which equates to nothing. I am the most influential Guardian both in-game (I host my own Guardian channel on Arkenstone) and in the Guardian forums and by me telling people not to trait Thrill of Battle what do you think the majority of the Guardians here will do? Thrill of Battle is nerfed so badly that there is no point in traiting it, not when you can invest the points in more valuable class traits. As of today every single effort every single day by me will be spent telling Guardian in the forums and in-game, and across my YouTube and Twitter accounts to not trait Thrill of Battle. Is this REALLY what you guys want? Because nobody traiting a class trait skill seems like a REALLY BAD IDEA by the Devs.

    This certainly was not the response that I was expecting as there is zero remorse for nerfing our DPS except for stating that T10 bleeds are not consistently doing their intended damage, nor is there any remorse for causing a class trait skill (ToB) to be untraited by every single Guardian that reads these forums and also in-game on Arkenstone for which I have a heavy hand in.

    What about our criticals from our bleeds, currently we are only seeing 3-5% criticals on our bleeds, making our LI legacy Bleed Critical Damage legacy useless. Are you going to fix the bug that is causing our bleeds not to crit?

    As it stands now I cannot recommend that any Guardian trait points into Thrill of Battle, nor can I recommend any Guardian to slot the Bleed Critical Damage legacy. Unfortunately every Guardian including myself already have this legacy slotted, by the way, don't waste money or Turbine Points on an Imbued Legacy Replacement Scroll as Turbine should be giving EVERY GUARDIAN a FREE Imbued Legacy Replacement Scroll.

    And what about Wardens. Wardens were NEVER designed to be DPS or Healing classes, their role first and foremost has always been that of a tank. Why is it then that Wardens can solo more content than Guardians, and I'm talking about Tier 2 Challenge content that Guardians cannot solo. Everything that a Warden can solo they can solo faster than ANY Guardian currently in the game. And why is it that a Warden specialized in Blue can out-dps most classes and don't require any healing. How is it that Wardens can run with over 100k Physical Mastery UNBUFFED and still be able to roflstomp through Tier 2 content? How is that balanced?

    For any new Guardians it is completely pointless for them to continue level their Guardians unless they ONLY want to tank, because with your nerfs there is no reason or motivation for any new Guardians to want to DPS with their Guardian.

    You didn't nerf the class, you destroyed the class.




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  10. #10
    Im really confused, either the dev in question really dosnt understand the guard or im a wombat cosplaying the tooth-fairy.

    Edge, your whole argument is made void by the existence of Wardens(massive heals,massive single+AOE damage?), and healing classes that DPS better than classes that are suppose to have a secondary role as dps.

    If this is what you indend to leave the guard as, the game will be crippled by people not wanting to lvl a guard due to NO DPS, and therefore a lack of "real" tanks at end game.

    I give up.

  11. #11
    So Turbine has spoken very clearly, they want guards to only be tanks. The red line was in a good state, not overpowered, very fun to play for a change of simple taunt tanking, and you take that away. Less guards will be online now.

    The lack of testing have brought very poor changes, going from 50% insulto injury to 15% is too drastic, nerfing our already 1st-2nd LOWEST single target DPS in the game. I know, you want to reduce PotW procs, but a middle term (25-30%) will surely be a lesser evil.

    In the same way, you have nerfed radiate from 100% to 30%. This is nerfing AoE DPS around 2.5x, and this is TOO DRASTIC and you simply broke redline guards, they will never be useful in t2 instances in that state. Red line now only for levelling. And when we see at warden, the other big tank class, having soo much DPS and self heals too, I just can't understand or justify the direction you want to take guards, other than promoting a premium class over a free class. Again, would not be better a middle line, like 50% radiate? And let's not talk about presumably new raid set bonus that increases radiate...

    When you say you want to nerf our self heals, I will assume is our red line heals, because blue and yellow heals are not really great. The impact of recent changes on red line self heals are low. Thrill of battle is really a very very minor source of healing, now I just don't trait it anymore, not worth. Just leave ToB as it was, or else you can entirely remove it because it is worthless now. You have to nerf PotW healing MAGNITUDE, and not reducing so much the PotW procs, which in turn nerf too much our AoE DPS.

    These are my thoughts on the changes, if they are of some help.

  12. #12
    Calling the dev publicly "stupid" is clearly the way to go:

    [05/24 00:33:41 AM] [World] Zonfluxw: 'My reply to +EdgeCase, who is an idiot btw; https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...=1#post7599381'

  13. #13
    Sigh.

    I have been down this road so many times.
    Always people gunning for the guards to be nerfed.
    No one ever looks at the fact that these great feats that guards can do are being done by a very few good and knowledgeable players.
    Not everyone can do the same things even when traited and geared the exact same way but because one guard can do something we all can.

    Sorry Edgecase but guards are and have been an AOE DPS class for YEARS.
    AOE targets legacy says we were.
    But this was changed by removing that legacy thus making us less AOE DPS already.
    But we still have many skills that are AOE and Yellow line is HEAVY in the AOE department, it is how that line tanks.

    We can not and do not parse champ AOE DPS numbers.
    If a guard can do a 20k DPS parse I can find you 10 champs that can do 30k or more and with much easier go of it.
    And us being 2/3's of a champ in aoe fights doesn't seem to be OP for guards, but it does make us more able to fill that roll when needed.

    Prey on the weak heal was too strong they say but nerfing radiate and insult to injury was not the right way to "fix" PotW.
    Reduce PotW's heal by 50% and TEST IT and see how it goes.

    But what is done is done, based on 9 years of playing a guard.

    Please fix the bleed bug sooner then later and please look into why our bleeds are not critting.
    Please revamp thrill of battle because 5 trait points for 2.5% heal 3 times a minute is not very useful.
    Make it use less trait points or increase the % heal on it.

    And really at the end of the day it is not guards that are OP in running certain content, it is the broken nature of the scaling that is underwhelming.

    Ashendoon of Gladden (formally Vilya)
    Last edited by AS1476; May 23 2016 at 07:46 PM. Reason: Typo

  14. #14
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    Ya know, the combination of being a Guard without a shield never sat well with me even back when they implemented Overpower. I never went down that path.

    I will say after reading some of these threads about 2h Red Guards, solo'n things, etc.. I can say this, It appears you really had tweak your character to be where it needed to be to do such things. It wasn't easy and a challenge FOR that type of result. Interesting thought. Then again, I could be wrong.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdgeCase View Post
    Recently, there have been a number of changes that affect the Guardian class. We'd like to share some of our thoughts on Guardian design, and clarify some of our goals.

    1. The Guardian is not an AOE DPS class.

    Thanks,
    EdgeCase

    This is really funny.
    This shows how little they have thought about this.
    This show that warden is "teachers pet" and "cash cow".

    /flipdesk.

  16. #16
    Of course.

    Don't bother playing a class in today's LOTRO if it isn't a premium one (or possibly minstrel and captain).

  17. #17
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    To paraphrase:

    1 The Guardian is not a paid for premium class.
    2 We will continue the stifle any who push he boundaries of their basic class.
    3 We'll continue to break something when we make a change to the Guardian.
    4 You'll play it how we tell you to play it.
    5 Lalalalala I can't hear you.

    Mac

    Really once the bleed damage and bleed crit gets fixed I don't see a whole lot of difference. I never got a DPS role in a six man T2, I still won't. I don't get a DPS role in a T1 SS first boss run, I still won't. I'll continue to do some old T1 three and six man content for little or no reward taking 5 or 10 times as long as a full group would and kid myself I'm as good as any Warden.

    A Warden, Beorning and RK will get any slot they want. It's bleak for other classes if this trend continues.

    Mac

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macdui View Post
    Really once the bleed damage and bleed crit gets fixed I don't see a whole lot of difference. I never got a DPS role in a six man T2, I still won't. I don't get a DPS role in a T1 SS first boss run, I still won't. I'll continue to do some old T1 three and six man content for little or no reward taking 5 or 10 times as long as a full group would and kid myself I'm as good as any Warden.

    A Warden, Beorning and RK will get any slot they want. It's bleak for other classes if this trend continues.

    Mac
    Yup, exactly this. Trying to get in a group as "DPS" using your guardian even BEFORE the nerf was greeted with "Guardians aren't DPS". Yay.

  19. #19
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    Jul 2007
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    2,015
    Before posting, I want to clarify that I don't play a guardian. However, I do play a champ. There wasn't even a contest as to which class had more AoE DPS. Nobody brought a guardian as AoE DPS into any instances, and I can tell you that guardians weren't oneshotting warleaders in the moors with captain buffs and a single AoE skill.

    I think that regarding class balance, developers need to be relying on their player base a little more. There are a fair number of extremely skilled players that can simply give you raw numbers as far as parses go for endgame DPS. Any of those players would have told you that guardian DPS does not approach champion dps in any way.

    I do, however, want to applaud you guys on your recent responsiveness. The number of constructive posts by devs looking for opinions on this forum now in comparison to two years ago is staggering. Just the fact that this thread exists, regardless of its outcome, is a good thing. Keep it up.

    Tarahimal

    The King's Own

    Landroval since 2008.

  20. #20
    I wrote about all of this with my idea I put in the player suggestion forums just this morning.

    Titled - [Game balance] A Proposal. https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...91#post7599191

    The dreaded one size fits all class balancing storm is back. Solo players, group players, and MVMPs need a better and more permanent fix for the problems of balance and class roles.
    I'd rather play the game, but once again as over the past 7 years, this time around, I'm going to park my guardian and put her on the shelf due to the needs of "game balancing" destroying various types of solo play fun.

    I’ve had so much fun over the past several years thanks to help from dedicated players like THATABGUY who wrote so much that has given insight into the guardian class play mechanics and has posted so many videos to help show the way to such awesome superhero content in this pure fantasy game. Thanks for the incredible ride Zonflux!

    At least for a while I've played this game and felt that I really was almost like super hero. As opposed to killing things for various quest givers over 100 levels.

    However, I now wait and cringe. I fear that my other characters will also get sucked into the destructive balancing storm that is here.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by EdgeCase View Post
    Recently, there have been a number of changes that affect the Guardian class. We'd like to share some of our thoughts on Guardian design, and clarify some of our goals.


    1. The Guardian is not an AOE DPS class.


    The intended design for the Guardian is that the class should be a top-flight tank with great survivability and reasonable DPS, but with less ability to burn down groups of mobs like a Champion can. Traits like the old Insult to Injury and Radiate made it so that Guardians could produce AOE DPS numbers similar to a Champion in some content. The recent changes are intended to leave Guardian single-target damage unaffected, while reducing their ability to quickly kill multiple mobs at once.


    We recieved feedback showing that before the Radiate and Insult to Injury changes, it was easy for a Guardian to pull several mobs and burn them down very quickly, meaning that a class that was not designed for high DPS was running through solo content faster than a Champion. This is not intentional, given our current class balance direction.


    2. Guardian self-healing was a little out of control.


    Guardian self-healing was much higher than we wanted it to be, and one major goal for these changes was to bring that healing more in line with where we want it.


    The recent changes on Guardians affect their healing in two main ways: directly and indirectly. A direct change was the Thrill of Battle internal cooldown. By having an internal cooldown on Thrill of Battle, you can't have it proc several times at once with a single Whirling Retaliation, reducing the maximum burst value of Guardian heals. The number of heals that a Guardian could get at one time with Whirling Retaliation was much higher than we intended. An indirect change was with Prey on the Weak. Since Radiate and Insult to Injury give you less bleeds in general, Prey on the Weak will proc less.


    As an aside, we’re aware of the bug that makes tiered-up Radiated bleeds do far less damage than they should. We’re working on a fix, which should be up soon.


    Thanks,
    EdgeCase
    1. The Guardian is not an AOE DPS class.

    This argument is one I see thrown around in LOTRO a lot, and I do not understand it at all. Think about it from the perspective of healing and tanking classes. Champions/Beornings/Captains have tanking trait lines that would be considered secondary roles. Instances are designed with the assumption that you will have a tanking class in your group. If you make these secondary tanks weaker by design, then no one will ever use them and their trait lines are completely pointless. I've mained a guardian for years, but have recently started tanking on a captain, and I don't notice the class being any weaker as a tank and in fact there are a lot of situations where I think I would prefer to tank on my captain. The same is true of healing classes. If every healing spec that isn't a minstrel was by design, weaker than a minstrel, then there would be no reason for a non-minstrel healer to exist. And as it stands, blue minstrels are a little OP, but I don't think any healing class is lacking throughput to heal any content that exists in the game.

    So then why should this logic apply to dps specs as well? You say the guardian is meant to be more single target focused? Then where is our single target damage? Because I guarantee you, if you take a guardian as dps into SST2 or Dome T2 or any T2 instance for that matter. That guardian will be getting carried by the other dps in the group who will be doing several times as much damage.



    You're also saying that guardians could produce similar aoe dps numbers to champions? I would really like to see some data on that. In my own experience of playing both classes, my champion is easily in the range of 30-40k sustained aoe dps and as much as 60k in short bursts. Whereas on my guardian I can only manage around half to two thirds as much. And I don't have full 105 gear on either character yet, I only expect the gap to widen as champions seem to scale much better with gear than guardians do.



    Guardian is well and truly at the bottom of the dps food chain. Our somewhat passable aoe dps was the only redeeming quality of the spec. I am totally confused as to why it would be the target of multiple nerfs



    2. Guardian self-healing was a little out of control.


    This is actually fairly accurate and I don't mind that nerf at all. I would gladly trade self healing for more damage. But you kind of goofed on that one and nerfed our dps at the same time.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdgeCase View Post
    Recently, there have been a number of changes that affect the Guardian class. We'd like to share some of our thoughts on Guardian design, and clarify some of our goals.


    1. The Guardian is not an AOE DPS class.


    The intended design for the Guardian is that the class should be a top-flight tank with great survivability and reasonable DPS, but with less ability to burn down groups of mobs like a Champion can. Traits like the old Insult to Injury and Radiate made it so that Guardians could produce AOE DPS numbers similar to a Champion in some content. The recent changes are intended to leave Guardian single-target damage unaffected, while reducing their ability to quickly kill multiple mobs at once.


    We recieved feedback showing that before the Radiate and Insult to Injury changes, it was easy for a Guardian to pull several mobs and burn them down very quickly, meaning that a class that was not designed for high DPS was running through solo content faster than a Champion. This is not intentional, given our current class balance direction.

    2. Guardian self-healing was a little out of control.


    Guardian self-healing was much higher than we wanted it to be, and one major goal for these changes was to bring that healing more in line with where we want it.


    The recent changes on Guardians affect their healing in two main ways: directly and indirectly. A direct change was the Thrill of Battle internal cooldown. By having an internal cooldown on Thrill of Battle, you can't have it proc several times at once with a single Whirling Retaliation, reducing the maximum burst value of Guardian heals. The number of heals that a Guardian could get at one time with Whirling Retaliation was much higher than we intended. An indirect change was with Prey on the Weak. Since Radiate and Insult to Injury give you less bleeds in general, Prey on the Weak will proc less.


    As an aside, we’re aware of the bug that makes tiered-up Radiated bleeds do far less damage than they should. We’re working on a fix, which should be up soon.


    Thanks,
    EdgeCase
    First off, thank you for engaging with the community on this - I recognise that it is a rather brave thing to do, given the rage that has been exhibited on the guardian forums for the last few days, and while I can see where they are coming from, I do hope that guardian community members (including Zon, as much as I've appreciated all your help in the past!) remember that the best way to go about this isn't to scare the dev away by getting angry or ranting at them.

    I'd suggest that instead, we take the points that Edgecase has made, and show the ways in which we, the players, disagree with the claims made in this post, and the changes made. Hopefully we'll then be able to see some of these changes reversed or nuanced, rather than the slightly unfortunate approach which was taken.

    However, while I am glad that Edgecase has come to the community with these reasons, I feel that this whole problem could have been avoided if these changes had simply been released on Bullroarer in a public build for guardians to test, and to give structured and developed feedback - then a compromise could have been reached, as opposed to the rather harsh nerf that has been imposed without consultation with the players, who, after all, are the ones who know the class best, simply based on the fact that we play our characters so frequently.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I've decide to follow a pattern of paraphrasing or quoting what Edgecase has said, and then disputing said claim, or why I believe that it is misguided or incorrect:

    Claim A: Guardian AoE dps in solo situations was higher than Champion AoE dps, therefore it needed to be reduced ('given our current class balance direction'):

    - Issue 1: Champion AoE dps was much higher than Guardian AoE dps before these changes anyway, so this claim was incorrect.

    - Issue 2: Guardian AoE dps might have been good (although not as good as champs) before 18.1, but its solo dps was and is mediocre at best. The AoE compensated for that - but now, killing anything has become a slog of a fight - a bit like levelling a captain (as much as I love the class, the dps is pretty dire).

    - Issue 3: If you're comparing things in a solo environment, why would it matter even if guardian AoE dps was higher than champion AoE dps? Surely class balance is unimportant in a solo situation? And if it is important, how did wardens slip through that net?

    - Issue 4: If the truth is that guardians are being nerfed, not because of their solo capabilities (which, as established, doesn't really make much of a difference in PvE), but because of their survivability/dps combo in the Ettenmoors, then why was an Ettenmoors - only solution not imposed? We've heard repeatedly from Turbine that they will not make any class balance changes because of the balance situation in the Moors - so why does it feel that this was the reason for the change here? (And in the Ettenmoors, the problem was the self-heals, not the dps - see later point).

    - Issue 5: If the solo situations referred to were feats such as soloing T2 instances, please keep in mind that it is only a very small part of the guardian population that are doing this/are able to do this. Don't base your assessment of the class on the best player, nor the worst player - try and find somewhere in between (and those are the players who suffer the most with changes like this).

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Claim B: The Guardian should be a top flight tank, with great survivability and reasonable dps.

    - Issue 1: With Helm's Deep, we were given a dps line, a tanking line, and a hybrid line. If the purpose of the dps line wasn't to provide the class with an opportunity to do dps, what was the purpose?

    - Issue 2: Taking the example of wardens, they can have great survivability (with larger self heals than guardians), with greater dps. Why should they get both abilities in the same trait-line, when guardians are prevented from having anything more than mediocre dps in their dps trait line?

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Claim C: Guardian self-healing was out of control.

    - Issue 1: I agree! But if you intended to nerf the self healing, why did you choose to do it by reducing skills which play a relatively small part in self-heals anyway?

    - Issue 2: Why not simply nerf the self healing, by reducing Prey on the Weak heals, and leave the dps alone (given the points made above, and by other posters?) Approaching the problem 'indirectly' has done you no favours here.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    TL;DR Summary:

    + We agree with you that guardian self heals were overpowered.

    - We disagree that Thrill of Battle was responsible for this.
    - We disagree that guardians had dps which exceeded champion dps.


    = We believe that a nerf to guardian AoE dps greatly reduces the classes' overall dps, and the dps capabilites should not have been reduced.
    = We believe that if changes are to be made, it should be to Prey on the Weak's healing capabilities, to reduce our survivability, but not concurrently with reducing our dps.


    Hopefully, that summarises the general beliefs about the class and these changes from players on this thread.
    Last edited by Tirian-Hammerfist; May 23 2016 at 09:12 PM.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    4,279
    Quote Originally Posted by Macdui View Post
    1 The Guardian is not a paid for premium class.

    A Warden, Beorning and RK will get any slot they want. It's bleak for other classes if this trend continues.
    The Beorning is probably the buggiest class around and almost never gets asked to join a group in any of the 3 roles that is supposed to be capable of, any issues of class balance have nothing to do with being a premium class or not.

  24. #24
    I did a little digging back to the dev diary that was released when we went from the old system to the current trait tree system we have currently. I copied/pasted a small section for you to see, and linked the full diary for reference. Seems to me back when this all went into place a few years ago the red line was changed to put guardian MORE in line with champion DPS, not to make us even further apart.

    https://www.lotro.com/en/game/articl...E2%80%99s-deep


    Developer Diary : Guardian Class Changes in Helm’s Deep

    By: Verizal





    Hey all, Verizal here to talk to you about all the fun, new changes coming up with the Guardian. I was pretty pumped when I found out that I was going to have the opportunity to work on this class, given both my experiences in LOTRO, and my inclination towards heavier classes in other MMOs. For whatever reason, the idea of charging headlong into battle, covered in plate, and swinging a giant axe appeals to me much more than hanging out on the outskirts of the fight, plinking away at the enemy and hoping they don’t look my way (sorry Hunters). It was with this sort of mentality that I tried to approach this rather sizeable revamp.

    When I started this process, a fair amount of pre-planning had already been done for me. That is, I was able to look at what we currently had in game and say, “Sure. There’s already a DPS tree so I may as well attempt to flesh that out. And they certainly need to keep their tank tree, so I’m gonna work with that as well.” The third tree, however, was the threat tree. As many of you know, threat will be seeing some significant changes in the future, so I needed to build out a new play-style for the Guardian that was unique enough to warrant its own tree, and interesting enough to bring in players that have already become so accustomed to the standard methods of Guardian tanking and dps. Once this was done, I also had to make sure that the other two trees were just as exciting.



    The Keen Blade

    So for all of you returning players, you probably recognize the name of this tree as being the Guardians’ former DPS trait set. While not necessarily focusing on any specific means of damage dealing, this set offered some forms of skill-specific crit chance and increased damage, as well as some general improvements to survivability. My initial hopes were to somehow combine these bonuses with the essence of the Overpower stance (high base and crit damage) to create a fully functional DPS option for the Guardian. I wanted the Guardian to be able to hold his own when it came to damage numbers and not simply be viewed as a wannabe Champion. My first iteration, however, didn’t really accomplish this goal. I found myself left with a bunch of useful traits that did not really meld together into any singular play-style. The Guardian had high base damage, but that was about it. So I took a step back. I needed to find a feature of this class that I could actually turn into a fully formed play-style, where players would be forced to think through their actions, rather than simply hit the first button that lit up. And that’s when it came to me – bleeds. The Guardian has always had access to them, but I feel has never really utilized them as anything more than a secondary feature. It is from there that I decided on the bleed application/cashout mechanic.

    As players progress further and further down this line, they will gain access to more bleeds on skills, as well as the ability to stack more bleeds on a target. Starting out, for instance, a Guardian is only able to maintain a stack of three bleeds on a target and only has one means of applying them. As they begin to invest more points, however, they will eventually gain the ability to stack up to ten bleeds, apply double bleeds on crit, and even occasionally heal through their application. Guardians will also receive an improved version of Overwhelm when spec’ing into this tree that allows them to ‘cash out’ any bleeds that are present on a target. To put it simply, they will remove all bleeds on the target to deal high burst damage that is relevant to the number of bleeds removed. It is up to the player to decide when to best utilize this ability.


    I know things change over time, but this seems to have been a drastic change from the vision we were told about a few years back.

  25. #25
    My opinion coming from an outside perspective of someone who has only played Guardian a little:

    The classes self-heals are still over the top. Either from Thrill of Danger being easily accessible in Red Line and the AoE/Single Target healing potential of Prey on the Weak, Guardians solo capabilities are still insane- just at a much slower pace since the nerf. Instead of directly addressing Prey on the Weak's broken capabilities, you addressed it indirectly, hurting several other aspects of the class that were, quite honestly, not nearly as broken.


    From what I see, you watched a few Guardian videos and saw how they can take on entire Skraids, Raids of Creeps, and solo T2 content with ease. But LOTRO's dev team, after seeing this, came to the wrong conclusion: they see Guardians soloing stuff and go "wow, they can kill all those Mobs, what insane DPS!" instead of what they should be doing if they had been paying attention: "Wow, how are they surviving that long against so many Mobs!" The AoE DPS of Guardian isn't really all that significant- it's far from the best in the game. The DPS numbers are only insane when you account for the fact that Guardians can pull DOZENS of mobs at the same time and survive long enough (through heals) to kill them all.



    Also, as others have said, the Warden "nerf" was a total joke, and didn't even come close to fixing the wildly broken aspects of this class. If you're actually interested in restoring class balance, Wardens STILL need a serious adjustment.


    Thank you for asking for feedback. If you actually take the time to ask for feedback and you attempt to create discussion, you automatically have my respect- it's refreshing to see a Dev actually doing this after so many years of total silence.
    Last edited by Spilo; May 23 2016 at 09:28 PM.

 

 
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