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  1. #1

    Post Tournament of the Twins Feedback

    I tried to gather all the feedback so far from the other threads and put them into one post to make it easier for the Devs. I've also added some of my own thoughts. This server has the potential to be a success in my opinion, so LISTEN TO FEEDBACK!

    • Incentivisation (incentive -> investment -> success/reward -> continued investment) That's how you keep people engaged, but only if actual investment (time and effort, not money) is required.
      - PvMP Ranks copy pasted
      - PvMP vendors copy pasted [See here]
      - Slayer deeds copy pasted
      - Add daily and weekly PvP quests at level 50 that award Honour/Virtue XP
      - Roving threats of Eriador should function like the bosses in the Delving of Frór in the Ettenmoors.
      - You get Honour/Renown from killing players starting at level 20 and ONLY if they're 5 levels or less below you and ONLY by dealing damage (NO HEAL TAGGING!!)
      - The more people hit another player, the less Honour they'll receive if he dies (Massive zergs and huge raids steamrolling people need to be discouraged at all costs)
      - If you're killed by the same person over and over again in a row, then they won't receive any Honour/Renown from you after a while. (There should also be some kind of internal cooldown. So if this "immunity" state is triggered, it will be active for some time regardless what happens after)
      - Keep the leaderboard, but let us also track daily honour gains
      All of this would ensure that if someone wanted to abuse the system, they'd have to go to great lengths to do so. Even if they did, they'd show up on the leaderboard and would be mass reported and banned.
    • Give the players of the other faction some sort of distinction to yours without needing to target them. (Red name for example or blue/red flags on people's back: https://i.imgur.com/YrzIwgp.png)
    • A server-wide -X% outgoing damage/healing debuff should be implemented to make fights last longer, give people more time to react and execute proper rotations to make the gameplay more engaging. This would also make landscape content more challenging and that's what we've been asking for! [IMPLEMENTED; should be more than 30% though; add crit magnitude reduction; debuff should stay active in instances]
    • Disable the instance finder on the server to promote more natural points of interest/conflict. You shouldn’t be able to launch an instance from anywhere. Convenient features like this really hurt MMOs. It makes sense on the live servers, but it will be “current” content on the new server. People should gather at the entrance of the instance. Makes the world feel more alive and promotes immersion.
    • Shadows of Angmar has a lot of content. It would be wise to restrict content and gradually unlock parts of the game to promote a sense of progression and longevity of the server. It gives people time to catch up and others can’t get too far ahead. Suggestion:
      -Phase 1: Epic Story until Vol. 1 Book VI. Instances: Great Barrow, Garth Agarwen, Fornost, Annúminas and Urugarth. (Should be the longest Phase imo. Leveling takes a while and CRAFTING should be relevant so that it's worthwhile to max out your professions! Another reason why Raid gear shouldn't be available at launch. Also no lootbox or essence gear. Otherwise there's no meaningful character progression and this server will suffer the same fate as the LS. Same goes for the other server SSG has planned.
      -Phase 2: Vol.1 Book VII – X, Opening of Carn Dûm and Barad Gúlaran
      -Phase 3: Vol.1 Book XI – XV, Access to Eregion Landscape and Instances
      -Phase 4: Helegrod on T1 and T2. T3 2 weeks later
      -Phase 5: Rift on T1 and T2. T3 2 weeks later
    • Please make sure to provide an even playing field for everyone. That means no pre-order items, level skip, xp boost, slayer deed boost, motes and lootboxes etc. Just make it a VIP only server to minimize the importance of the ingame shop. Also remove Virtue XP from the store. It ruins the entire point of deeding for virtues and honor points.
    • Combat rezzes proc the Invulnerability buff. That needs to go. Also remove the ability to revive using Mithril Coins
    • [Exempt toggle skills and travel skills from the postmortem cooldown. That would enable people to map, run, horse, or stealth away from rez campers] [An invisibility buff will be granted to players after defeat]
    • Disable unlocking Travel Routes with Mithril Coins. You can bypass the level restrictions and travel to locations outside of Eriador to escape conflict. People will naturally try to get to higher level areas for extra Virtue XP and challenge, but they should do so without using the Stable Master. Trying to push beyond Eriador and see how far you can get would add another layer of progression and make for interesting gameplay!
    • Please consider adding a server specific vendor next to Elladan and Elrohir who sells PvP items. Anti CC potions and maybe an item to allow tracking stealthed Burglars/Hunters and Wardens. Or add a server wide stealth detection buff. [Stealth detection implemented]
    • Take a look at the loot table. The first iteration of the Legendary Server was a failure when it comes to itemization and character progression. How it should be: (landscape/quest gear < crafted gear/low standing rep rewards < guild crafting/high standing rep rewards =< instance gear/low rank pvp rewards < raid gear/high rank pvp rewards)
    • Maybe there should be ONE safe area per zone. [IMPLEMENTED; might need to get rid of those, if people are just hugging the safe zones all day]
      - Breeland: Bree [Confirmed safe zone]
      - Shire: Michel Delving
      - Ered Luin: Thorin's Gate and Hall
      - Lone Lands: Ost Guruth
      - Trollshaws: Rivendell [Confirmed safe zone]
      - North Downs: Othrikar [Esteldín SHOULD be contested for access to the Crafting Hall in my opinion]
      - Evendim: Tinnudir
      - Forochel: Zigilgund [Confirmed safe zone]
      - Misty Mountains: Gloin's camp
      - Angmar West: Aughaire
      - Angmar East: Gath Forthnir
      - Eregion (if we're going there): Gwingris
    • Disable or remove skirmishes and skirmish camps.

    ______________________________ ______________________________ ______________________________ ______________________________ ________________

    Changelog:
    - May 26:
    • -30% outgoing damage/healing debuff implemented
    • Additional safe zones implemented
    • Stealth/Speed buff after rez implemented

    - May 28:
    • Stealth detection buff implemented

    - May 30:
    • Faction distinction added to the list

    - May 31:
    • Incentivisation added to the list

    - June 4:
    • PvP Quests and Roving Threats added to Incentivisation
    Last edited by Daenirion; Jun 09 2020 at 03:28 PM. Reason: Changed the title since people think it's ok to spam the thread with off-topic issues because it happens to have a blue name in it

  2. #2
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    May I suggest class specific damage debuffs. We all know that a -50% outgoing damage wont work for all classes, the -% damage debuff should be class specific at least.

    For example, when I create a burglar it automatically have a -50% outgoing damage debuff. But when I create a guardian, it have a -10% outgoing damage debuff.

    Same goes with heals, heals needs to be adjusted accordingly, lesser outgoing damage means lesser heals as well. Or healer wont be possible to kill.

    Otherwise, I love your suggestions!

  3. #3
    100% on all of this. These are mostly minor tweaks that could make this server unbelievable fun and set the groundwork for years of good content and fun

    (Retired... Maybe un-retired?) Arkenstone: Immanitas R12 Burg, Gorbat R12 Reaver, Sueahpro R11 Mini, Falsified R9 RK, -The Blood Hand
    Crickhollow: Orphluk R9 Warg, Orphelun-1 R8 RK. -The Blood Hand.

  4. #4
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    Post

    Solid feedback, thanks for your attention and effort there!

    Time and/or technical restraints won't let us get to several of these, but we'll get ones we can hit for now in the short term and think about how we'll tackle some of the more complex issues for a future iteration of the server event.

    -Vastin

  5. #5
    One issue I thought relevant to bring up also...
    what happens if you never approach elrohir or elladan to pick a side?
    You can reach 50 without worry and then activate either side when you get a headstart on gear and levels, allowing you to focus purely on rolling through low level deeds without a single care in the world.
    Please restrict xp gain after level 10 unless you choose a side or make it so you HAVE to pick a side somehow, it'll be completely unfair to have people just power level to 50, get the strongest gear, skipping the entire challenge in the challenge league then just deed away for massive points without harm.
    Leader of the Mitey Worriers (Laurelin)
    Purveyors of premier meats and vegan substitutes since 26/12/17


  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askelin View Post
    One issue I thought relevant to bring up also...
    what happens if you never approach elrohir or elladan to pick a side?
    You can reach 50 without worry and then activate either side when you get a headstart on gear and levels, allowing you to focus purely on rolling through low level deeds without a single care in the world.
    Please restrict xp gain after level 10 unless you choose a side or make it so you HAVE to pick a side somehow, it'll be completely unfair to have people just power level to 50, get the strongest gear, skipping the entire challenge in the challenge league then just deed away for massive points without harm.
    Yeah! This is a must!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Askelin View Post
    One issue I thought relevant to bring up also...
    what happens if you never approach elrohir or elladan to pick a side?
    You can reach 50 without worry and then activate either side when you get a headstart on gear and levels, allowing you to focus purely on rolling through low level deeds without a single care in the world.
    Please restrict xp gain after level 10 unless you choose a side or make it so you HAVE to pick a side somehow, it'll be completely unfair to have people just power level to 50, get the strongest gear, skipping the entire challenge in the challenge league then just deed away for massive points without harm.
    Im not to worried about that. The only way to level is to complete quests and kill mobs. In the course of doing that, you will naturally complete some deeds in the earlier zones (15 quests in the shire, 30 brigands in bree, etc). if you havent joined a faction, all that honor will be wasted. Considering the point of this server seams to be getting the as much honor as you can, I cant imagine to many people are going to throwing away honor points by not joining a side.

    Even people who dont power level are probably going to come back and finish some slayer deeds over level. Killing barrow wardens and spirits in the barrow downs is much easier over level and you will probably see many high level people coming back to finish their slayer deeds. Anyone who does power level will have to contend with other high level people who did it the "right way" so its not like they would have a free pass in low level zones.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkcraft27 View Post
    Im not to worried about that. The only way to level is to complete quests and kill mobs. In the course of doing that, you will naturally complete some deeds in the earlier zones (15 quests in the shire, 30 brigands in bree, etc). if you havent joined a faction, all that honor will be wasted. Considering the point of this server seams to be getting the as much honor as you can, I cant imagine to many people are going to throwing away honor points by not joining a side.

    Even people who dont power level are probably going to come back and finish some slayer deeds over level. Killing barrow wardens and spirits in the barrow downs is much easier over level and you will probably see many high level people coming back to finish their slayer deeds. Anyone who does power level will have to contend with other high level people who did it the "right way" so its not like they would have a free pass in low level zones.
    I think many people will skip to select a faction to level faster.. If you don't join a faction there is no competition, and it will just promote power-leveling to 50. The whole point of the server should be 2 factions fighting to get to level 50... If it is a true pvp server, ofc everyone should be flagged for PVP. Otherwise there will be a "passive" group that just roam through the landscape without any threat, and the server loses its purpose. That is just my opinion though..

  9. #9
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    Post

    Our assumption is that most players will be focused on accruing as much honour as possible - and any deeds completed before you take the quest are indeed lost forever, so we're guessing that while there may be a power-level first contingent, they'll lose out in the long run.

    Our other option would have been to freeze xp gain at level 10 until players chose a side, and perhaps we'll do it that way next time, but it'll be interesting to see what strategies people take this time around.

    -Vastin

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Solid feedback, thanks for your attention and effort there!

    Time and/or technical restraints won't let us get to several of these, but we'll get ones we can hit for now in the short term and think about how we'll tackle some of the more complex issues for a future iteration of the server event.

    -Vastin
    Thank you Vastin for taking the time and letting us know. Obviously it's unrealistic to expect you guys to comment "seen" in every single thread, but it really comes a long way!

    These are the important changes :

    • Forcing people to pick a side
    • Outgoing damage/healing debuff, stealth detection buff
    • Instances only accessible if you're at the entrance
    • No level skip, xp boost, slayer deed boost, virtue xp from the store
    • Fixing the Burglar stealth bug
    • Combat rezzes shouldn't proc Invulnerability
    • Stop people from bypassing the level restrictions of Travel Routes with Mithril Coins

  11. #11
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    Feedback after around 2h of gameplay.

    We had some really fun pvp, there was some solid 2v2 and even 4v4. I see big potential in this server.

    I just wish that you would use "The War" tab for ranking, and that the leaderboard connects with the personal rating in the wartab instead. Completing deeds could have it's separate leader board.

    It could be "the war" leaderboard, and "deeds leaderboard".

    Wishes for next update.
    • This has been said before, we need -% outgoing damage/healing debuffs on classes, fights doesn't last long enough IMO. Don't be afraid of this, landscape mobs die fast enough anyway.
    • Enemy players should have red nameplates.
    • The leaderboard list could use some improvements, it looks really boring. And I would suggest that instead of having to walk to the leaderboard it should be possible to see it from the UI panel.
    • Disable skirmish camp, make it so that we have to craft gear or find drops inside instances. I think, when we have solid PVP, PVE is also more fun because it makes gearing more important. Same with crafting.
    • Make it so that players HAVE to chose faction, maybe before leaving the instanced area of level 1-6.
    • I think we need more restricted PVP areas, I think major quest hubs should have PVP restrictions to avoid camping.
    • When you kill, or complete a deed it should be clearly visible how much honour you gain. Also you should be able to check your honour in the UI.
    • Another cool thing would be rewards gated by a certain rating, or honor gain.
    Last edited by LotroVidz; May 26 2020 at 06:51 PM.

  12. #12
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    Question

    Ok, so what exactly is the deal with the Burg stealth bug that you're seeing? I don't have a specific report on that one yet and need some details.

    Because as far as I know, there aren't any level limits regarding who you can attack once two players have joined respective teams, stealth or no stealth.

    Unless you're saying that a stealthed burglar can attack a neutral player?

    -Vastin
    Last edited by Vastin; May 26 2020 at 07:03 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Ok, so what exactly is the deal with the Burg stealth bug that you're seeing? I don't have a specific report on that one yet and need some details.

    -Vastin
    This was mentioned by someone else and I put it on the list. There's a mechanic in place, that prevents you from attacking players 10 or more levels below you. Apparently, if Burglars enter stealth, they're able to attack regardless of level difference. Can't confirm this, but I assumed the person didn't just make it up.

  14. #14
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    Post

    As far as getting honour directly from kills, I was hoping to add a mechanic for that as players approached 50, but we just don't have the tech needed at the moment to do that in a way that wouldn't massively encourage bottom feeding and lowbie stalking. While we don't have any rules against that, we don't want to make it the focus of the event in terms of accruing honour.

    Once we have the tech in place to properly reward on-level kills then we can look at introducing that sort of mechanic as well.

    -Vastin

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    As far as getting honour directly from kills, I was hoping to add a mechanic for that as players approached 50, but we just don't have the tech needed at the moment to do that in a way that wouldn't massively encourage bottom feeding and lowbie stalking. While we don't have any rules against that, we don't want to make it the focus of the event in terms of accruing honour.

    Once we have the tech in place to properly reward on-level kills then we can look at introducing that sort of mechanic as well.

    -Vastin


    Another really good fix for this that was mentioned was introduce renown from kills - or make the wartab collect kills,deaths etc - so people can get their k/d, killing blows and points to a rank (if it was added).

    Keep the honour leaderboard only to deeds though, as that is far easier to exploit and adding it to kills will make people multibox and club as a result.

    Failing which,make it a deed like hobnanigans reputation which gives an account wide title for reaching xyz kills on the server.

  16. #16
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    With the exponential nature of stat increases by level, killing players more than 1 or 2 levels below you really isn't sporting, probably would be frowned upon by both of the elves, and should result in "dishonour" (negative honour).

  17. #17
    Not awarding honour when lowbie farming won't stop people from killing everyone on sight. It's the dark nature of an open world pvp. Having a leaderboard and pvp (although not connected) as the centerpiece of a server will lead to ganking. Game studios even change their games around it (see New World changing their F4A pvp to a bit more nuanced killing).

    A lot of suggestions are around creating a fair playing field such as disabling xp or other pre-order items. Create more safe zones or chances to retreat from an area. In addition it might tie in the monitzation of the server, but slayer deeds accelerators kinda defeat a leaderboard function. Depending how long the server will be up one would still be able to complete all deeds (earn max honor available) or need to go ham on the playtime if there are only an finite sources of honor without pvp awarding it.

    I'm all up for a competitive side of lotro, but a deed simulator isn't that.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by LotroVidz View Post

    Wishes for next update.
    • This has been said before, we need -% outgoing damage/healing debuffs on classes, fights doesn't last long enough IMO. Don't be afraid of this, landscape mobs die fast enough anyway.
    • Enemy players should have red nameplates.
    • The leaderboard list could use some improvements, it looks really boring. And I would suggest that instead of having to walk to the leaderboard it should be possible to see it from the UI panel.
    • Disable skirmish camp, make it so that we have to craft gear or find drops inside instances. I think, when we have solid PVP, PVE is also more fun because it makes gearing more important. Same with crafting.
    • Make it so that players HAVE to chose faction, maybe before leaving the instanced area of level 1-6.
    • I think we need more restricted PVP areas, I think major quest hubs should have PVP restrictions to avoid camping.
    • When you kill, or complete a deed it should be clearly visible how much honour you gain. Also you should be able to check your honour in the UI.
    • Another cool thing would be rewards gated by a certain rating, or honor gain.
    With these changes I would play on this server! I like it! Otherwise there are not enough benefits for me to play more than a few days on this server. But I really would like to see the wishes implemented. Great ideas!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirle View Post
    Not awarding honour when lowbie farming won't stop people from killing everyone on sight. It's the dark nature of an open world pvp. Having a leaderboard and pvp (although not connected) as the centerpiece of a server will lead to ganking. Game studios even change their games around it (see New World changing their F4A pvp to a bit more nuanced killing).

    A lot of suggestions are around creating a fair playing field such as disabling xp or other pre-order items. Create more safe zones or chances to retreat from an area. In addition it might tie in the monitzation of the server, but slayer deeds accelerators kinda defeat a leaderboard function. Depending how long the server will be up one would still be able to complete all deeds (earn max honor available) or need to go ham on the playtime if there are only an finite sources of honor without pvp awarding it.

    I'm all up for a competitive side of lotro, but a deed simulator isn't that.
    It will be a challenge to reach level 50, but remember the factions will be equally split. You can still team up with other players and even communicate with the other faction. maybe everyone won't be that aggressive since you won't earn anything from just killing players below level 50. Open world pvp works in wow, when there are a lot of players of both factions in 1 area it usually is rather peaceful. Thats the case in wow classic at least. Also you can team up against gankers.

    This is the first time in lotros history we will be able to do freep pvp in more than just 1v1 scenarios. And that is awesome. Those fights we had yesterday with only level 50 players were tons of fun.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by LotroVidz View Post

    This is the first time in lotros history we will be able to do freep pvp in more than just 1v1 scenarios. And that is awesome. Those fights we had yesterday with only level 50 players were tons of fun.
    It could be a lot of fun, depending on how engaged the community is. I'm sure there are lot of places in Eriador that could serve as an Arena. We can organize our own tournaments with leaderboards. I'm sure 1v1, 3v3, 6v6 and 12v12 will be a regular thing. Even an all out war between Kinships.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daenirion View Post
    It could be a lot of fun, depending on how engaged the community is. I'm sure there are lot of places in Eriador that could serve as an Arena. We can organize our own tournaments with leaderboards. I'm sure 1v1, 3v3, 6v6 and 12v12 will be a regular thing. Even an all out war between Kinships.
    Yeah, I literally cant wait for this :P

    I also think SSG needs to market this the right way, tone down on the "limited time" server, that will put a lot of players off. This should be marketed as a PVP server capped at level 50. With adjusted PVE for longevity. They should just tone down gear that comes from quests and scaled instances, and make the gear that drops inside original SOA instances more powerful. Remove skirmish camps, to make crafted items and instance drops more rare. This will give players a lot to work for, and in the end it will be worth it since you can take that gear into PVP.

    This could be my main server literally, if they fix itemization on level 50 cap. Making instances and raids more difficult, and also gating PVP rewards behind honour/rank that are on pair or even better than PVE rewards. I think they should explain that the "limited time" will depend on players, if this gets a steady population of both PVP and PVE players, why should the server close? With a few adjustments, this pvp server could easily take over the regular PVMP mode IMO.

    Imagine having a balanced level 50 endgame, with this cool open world PVP and connect the ranking system that we have in PVMP to work on this server. That would be so cool. Then they could gate rewards like unique class items, pockets, pots, cosmetics etc behind a rank requirement. This will also give the server a purpose, rather than just pushing the leaderboard. They have the ranking system in place, it should work for this server. That in itself would be an initiative to do PVP and push ranking for better rewards.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkcraft27 View Post
    if you havent joined a faction, all that honor will be wasted. Considering the point of this server seams to be getting the as much honor as you can, I cant imagine to many people are going to throwing away honor points by not joining a side.
    You could partially finished the deeds. Have it so you only have 1 or 2 left to kill or discover. Pick up the quest and go on a mad run completing 20 deeds in record time.

    But then I guess you can't do it for 50 levels' worth.
    'A cage,' she said. 'To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.'

    [evernight] lilka : warden | gwenaëlle : champion | elorie : minstrel | cedar : hunter


  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Once we have the tech in place to properly reward on-level kills then we can look at introducing that sort of mechanic as well.

    -Vastin
    While you are at it, make sure that at level 50, player kills ALSO reward renown so we can gain rank, and also commendations. Then simply move some of the PVMP vendors to bree.
    Last edited by LotroVidz; May 27 2020 at 02:01 PM.

  24. #24
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    I still can't believe LotRO is getting an open PvP server. I thought we'd literally never see it. I have very little interest in it, but it's very exciting that people will have the opportunity! I think if you can find a way to do this but with PvMP it could be even more fun (and lore-friendly).
    Arda Shrugged : Elendilmir (RIP) -> Arkenstone -> Anor (RIP) -> Landroval -> Treebeard

  25. #25
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    Post

    One of the reasons we're doing this as a limited time server is that it's quite experimental for us, so we want to explore what sorts of issues and opportunities arise in an open-world lotro pvp environment without committing everyone to a long haul.

    If it is reasonably successful we'll be looking at running it again with more resources and updates to help develop the pvp environment, possibly in longer formats as well, but for now we just want to treat it as a special event.

    -Vastin

 

 
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