So, is everyone gonna ignore the fact that the new Virtue System is the Biggest Grind this game has ever seen?

[Snobs]

Note: I know that it might not be finished yet but the current Beta Build is very concerning.

1. There are now 60 levels instead of 20 per virtue.
2. You now receive a passive bonus for every virtue that is not equipped, meaning you might want to level every single Virtue to the maximum level to get its passive bonus. It might not be much of a bonus but it is a bonus regardless.
3. There is a new virtue (Wit) that will be Level 0 at the beginning.
4. You only get 1000 Virtue XP per deed and at a certain point you need more than 1000 XP per virtue per level which means you need more than 1 Deed per Virtue Level.
5. I'm pretty sure there aren't even enough Deeds in the game to get all 21 Virtues to Level 60 from Level 0 if you're a new player.

The new Virtue System doesn't even address the most relevant point in my opinion. Why are Virtues not Account-Wide? Does anyone really think that people will do the entire Deed Log for maximum virtues on multiple chars? This has always been the argument why people disliked doing Virtues. I don't have a problem doing virtues once ... but once per character is unfun.
All of this combined and we've got the single most grindy system that has ever existed in this game, forget about LI Scroll of Empowerment Grind, that is nothing compared to this.

[DiogoVP]

Who is ignoring that fact? Us, the players, or the devs?
I don't think we're ignoring anything, but it's hard to feel motivated when devs don't address the issues that we point out here in the Bullroarer forums and then fix nothing when we get a new build.

[Elmagor]

Note: I know that it might not be finished yet but the current Beta Build is very concerning.

1. There are now 60 levels instead of 20 per virtue.
2. You now receive a passive bonus for every virtue that is not equipped, meaning you might want to level every single Virtue to the maximum level to get its passive bonus. It might not be much of a bonus but it is a bonus regardless.
3. There is a new virtue (Wit) that will be Level 0 at the beginning.
4. You only get 1000 Virtue XP per deed and at a certain point you need more than 1000 XP per virtue per level which means you need more than 1 Deed per Virtue Level.
5. I'm pretty sure there aren't even enough Deeds in the game to get all 21 Virtues to Level 60 from Level 0 if you're a new player.

The new Virtue System doesn't even address the most relevant point in my opinion. Why are Virtues not Account-Wide? Does anyone really think that people will do the entire Deed Log for maximum virtues on multiple chars? This has always been the argument why people disliked doing Virtues. I don't have a problem doing virtues once ... but once per character is unfun.
All of this combined and we've got the single most grindy system that has ever existed in this game, forget about LI Scroll of Empowerment Grind, that is nothing compared to this.

1)And you ignore the fact what players who have 20+ virtues have 50+ levels.
2)We yet to see correct passive bonus, just placeholder. You want to level them all, or you don't want to level them all. It's all up to you, it's your decision. Also you can create virtue trees and switch between them.
3)You live without it in the past, and you can live without it now, right?
4)1000 XP for 1-10 level. ~1400 XP for 58+ level. That means what if SSG change numbers, new player can level them even faster when he gets 1000 virtue xp per deed. To solve that problem, they just need to change low level virtues from 1000 xp per level to something like 500-700 XP per level.
5)And how can you prove it? Complectionists have all virtues except Wit on 58-59 level. I yet to see any player who complete ALL deeds in the game and Bullroar have ~40-50 players maximum. You even can't say about your levels as example.

[Moln]

Given that there are several threads on this topic ongoing, I'd say we are not all ignoring the situation.

One problem is that the devs decided to keep the feel of 'finish a deed, earn a virtue' we currently have with this virtue xp system. If the xp has to be spent as soon as earned rather than go into a pool for us to spend later), then you run into a problem once you max everything and still have deeds (or other vxp sources) to go, potentially putting us in the position of wasting vxp. I think we can conclude from that that the devs have set the maximum available virtue levels to a point we shouldn't be able to max out everything. Which introduces a new can of worms as existing players are locked into previous choices (that we didn't make) because we've earned specific virtues from the deeds we did.

The devs also want to respect past accomplishment so they're giving existing characters virtue levels in the new system based on what we had, but folks in other threads have already pointed out the math on this means that existing characters are going to have a massive vxp advantage over new (or even relatively low) characters once everyone has a chance to fill their deeds out.

We don't know all the other sources of vxp, so our current view of the system is (may be) artificially bleak.

I really hope they take the advice they're getting to pool vxp and let us spend them like unimbued LIs or trait trees, and give us a free 'respec' when the system goes live.

[Cordovan]

We have been digging into the state of the Virtue system that was just on Bullroarer to help us parse out some of your feedback on the expected amount of work involved, and there were some sources of Virtue XP that weren't available on Bullroarer this time. Expect to see a better picture of this system, our intentions with it, and your intended use of it in the near future as this gets better polished.

[Moln]

We have been digging into the state of the Virtue system that was just on Bullroarer to help us parse out some of your feedback on the expected amount of work involved, and there were some sources of Virtue XP that weren't available on Bullroarer this time. Expect to see a better picture of this system, our intentions with it, and your intended use of it in the near future as this gets better polished.

It's probably worth pointing out that an earlier clarification suggested that some of these other sources would include festival activities, which presumably won't be obvious at this point unless you have a festival active on Bullroarer. So some quantity may be floating there.

I guess my big question is whether there are any repeatable sources of vxp? Daily or weekly endgame quests?

[Ballie]

You devalued the "currency" making it 60 rather than 30ish but halved the earning at even the lowest cost level, double whammy. Then also ramp up the cost 'til it's half as much again. Even store advance is just the 1000 VP which isn't enough by itself to add a whole rank above rank 10. Sounds like a third world country in debt to the world bank with these economics.

I can get that there might be some deeds adding virtue exp but not advertising the fact, it would explain my 51 virtue deed completions adding 60k rather than 51k VP. Even so it's 51 deeds , plus hidden extras from wrappers maybe, to make a virtue rank 50 rather than live of 22 completions. The maths is screwed or can you explain how a rank 20/22 virtue can end up as rank 50 on BR. 22 completions under this new system would only raise it to rank 21/60, is that what's instore for us in the "polished" release? To say there are other sources is just saying it requires more deeds to progress.

We've got 12 year vets of the game on youtube trying to get their heads around this change and the intent is to make it easier? It's hardly going to encourage you guys who never bothered with virtues before.

I'd rather hear from a dev, every time the CM gets involved it just seems like damage limitation, plausible denial time. Please read your tooltips before another stream!

[zeroxes]

I haven't spent much time with it on Bullroarer, but on the face, I like the idea; even if multiple deeds are required to attain a level because (presumably) the system allows me to select which deeds I'm completing. The current virtues require me to complete specific deeds that often don't interest me at all to attain new ranks. With this new system, I get to decide which deeds I'm interested in and customize the reward.

[webrender]

I guess I'm not looking at this as a grind as much as a long-term reward/reputation system that provides ongoing and growing benefits as a character proceeds through middle earth. I would expect that it would take a long time to ever get close to max VXP.

[Mukor]

It's probably worth pointing out that an earlier clarification suggested that some of these other sources would include festival activities, which presumably won't be obvious at this point unless you have a festival active on Bullroarer. So some quantity may be floating there.

I guess my big question is whether there are any repeatable sources of vxp? Daily or weekly endgame quests?

Truly Festival activities as a source of virtue XP?
Yeah max the grind and let them grind more boring stuff.

[Thornglen]

We have been digging into the state of the Virtue system that was just on Bullroarer to help us parse out some of your feedback on the expected amount of work involved, and there were some sources of Virtue XP that weren't available on Bullroarer this time. Expect to see a better picture of this system, our intentions with it, and your intended use of it in the near future as this gets better polished.

Any chance you will bring back the Dev Diaries format for a look at the new system once things are worked out? How it operates, why things are done the way they are done, etc? I liked how those often went a bit deeper into a game mechanic than the general announcements.

[Ballie]

I haven't spent much time with it on Bullroarer, but on the face, I like the idea; even if multiple deeds are required to attain a level because (presumably) the system allows me to select which deeds I'm completing. The current virtues require me to complete specific deeds that often don't interest me at all to attain new ranks. With this new system, I get to decide which deeds I'm interested in and customize the reward.

The thing is rather than going to do one deed in Great River to add one to your determination you get to choose 2 or 3 deeds, that earn VP, instead. If many more deeds provided VP then you would possibly level virtues up without having to put much though in it. But in BR#2 it's only the old virtue deeds that are earning you VP. Are they going to back track and add VP rewards to older deeds in the game? Unlikely, possibly only when LSs reach an area could the add new deeds but they couldn't add VP benefits to existing deeds later because they'd have to propagate the points to those who have already completed them and the system as it is will max your selected earning virtue then cycle left to right on your current chosen slotted virtues then what, alphabetically? They haven't provided us with the tools to "re-virtue" so we could rank up a suddenly more attractive virtue over a one that now is lacking.

I'm guessing the thinking was more on going forward beyond 120 and not so much the ranking up virtues from scratch under the new system.

We'll have to see how they handle the Store bought trait, used to be you could buy 20 (in theory) and be at cap, now you can buy 75 to get you to max 60.

[Mukor]

The thing is rather than going to do one deed in Great River to add one to your determination you get to choose 2 or 3 deeds, that earn VP, instead. If many more deeds provided VP then you would possibly level virtues up without having to put much though in it. But in BR#2 it's only the old virtue deeds that are earning you VP. Are they going to back track and add VP rewards to older deeds in the game? Unlikely, possibly only when LSs reach an area could the add new deeds but they couldn't add VP benefits to existing deeds later because they'd have to propagate the points to those who have already completed them and the system as it is will max your selected earning virtue then cycle left to right on your current chosen slotted virtues then what, alphabetically? They haven't provided us with the tools to "re-virtue" so we could rank up a suddenly more attractive virtue over a one that now is lacking.

I'm guessing the thinking was more on going forward beyond 120 and not so much the ranking up virtues from scratch under the new system.

We'll have to see how they handle the Store bought trait, used to be you could buy 20 (in theory) and be at cap, now you can buy 75 to get you to max 60.

It's not just that.
We need more XP per deed or more virtues should get benefied with completing, the numbers of foes to slay must become reduced not to say halfed, we need other ways to earn XP as killimg mops/completing quest.

With the current system we' re forced to grind things which were skipped with reasons. it's fells like use the Tools we give you or be punished

[Elflord410]

Any chance you will bring back the Dev Diaries format for a look at the new system once things are worked out? How it operates, why things are done the way they are done, etc? I liked how those often went a bit deeper into a game mechanic than the general announcements.

But that would mean... you know... explaining themselves.

[Lord.Funk]

Is anyone really surprised about this ???

I'm not really surprised. I knew there was some hidden agenda to this revamp. If it wasn't to remove earning LP from deeds, well then it had to be something like this. They don't pay devs to revamp something without thinking it will generate more revenues. It's just how business works.

It is a clear push to get people to buy valars and get the 12 ranks included (or maybe it will be 12 x 1000 VXP spread out on all virtues with a valar after this, not even giving 12 ranks in each). Also to encourage people to buy VXP in the store to max the virtues to also get the passive bonuses. It was all about making them relevant to be sold in the store. That was what the propaganda spin "make virtues more relevant" meant. How they could be more monetized.

It's not all about making good games anymore, it's more about how to monetize them and turn them into slot machines and store fronts. To make the investors happy, not the gamers.

Here is a good video kind of explainig the currenty situation within the gaming industry and why it is going to in the direction it's going. Very relevant looking at how LoTRO have been changing in design under SSG/Daybreak.

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7UX1VoBNwM



What these companies, venture capitalists and investors don't seem to realize is that they are pushing current gamers away and long term it seems like bad business. All they see is fast revenues and potentially to weane a new generation of gamers into thinking all this is how it is supposed to be. Us that have been playing games since before it turned into this will never simply silently accept it, but a new more weaned in generation might, as they will not know anything else. A generation grown up with mobile games as the norm. That might be the long term business they hope for and that it in that way will be good long term business. Not sure how that will turn out. Too early to say. Right now though it looks like long-term bad business as gamers are getting more and more fed up and not jumping on this band-wagon without a backlash.

As for this latest store push with the virtues we will see where it lands, but looking at it atm, it is clear that the agenda was exactly that, make it more dependant on the store and more of a grind. There have to be big tweaks and changes for it not to be that as it looks now in it's current state.

With enough backlash they might have to react a bit and at least tone down the grind a bit, but not totally as then it will not push people to the store. Let's hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst.

As for those requesting deeds to be account wide, well that would simply play into the companys hands, as that would also mean people could only earn the LP from deeds once on each account. Not exactly a good solution for the gamers, but I'm sure Daybreak and the investors would Luv it.

[Aedfrith]

Is anyone really surprised about this ???

I'm not. Your post makes perfect sense. This is the only reason they did this.
We asked them to reduce LI grind and instead we got this.

[Aedfrith]

our intentions with it

Despite your mealy-mouthed answer, your intentions are crystal clear. Make another intolerable grind which will either drive people to the store, or to leave the game.

The strategy seems to be to milk the whales for all they are worth. A very large number of people play this game because it is set in Middle-Earth, not because it is an MMO. And, newsflash, not all of us are whales.

The rewards also seem to go hand-in-hand with increased tiers of instance difficulty which will make the gap between haves and have-nots even wider, particularly if the instances themselves are full of the catastrophic flaws that plagued Naerband and Thrumfall. Credit where credit is due - Thikil-Gundu is an example of an instance done right (apart from stupid levels of trash morale). Those two are instances done very, very wrong.

[Hephburz-2]

The best solution going forward with this new system is just to make virtues account wide. It can't really be expected for players to grind this out on every single one of their characters.

[Bighanson1]

The best solution going forward with this new system is just to make virtues account wide. It can't really be expected for players to grind this out on every single one of their characters.

i would prefer that solution too. make the grind harder and longer - but account-wide.

and deeds in high-end level regions should give more xp imo.

In the end we have more or less nothing to do for at least 6 more months - better to do anything than nothing ^^

[Ranmazu]

In the end we have more or less nothing to do for at least 6 more months - better to do anything than nothing ^^

Definitely not. I preffer good content over unnecessary grinding.

The comunity is crying about the ridicolous empowerment scroll grind and what we might get looks like an even bigger grind.

I understand that virtues need a kind of a revamp, but that doesn't mean that the grind has to increase significantly (or increase at all).

Virtues are already very grindy and alt unfriendly, but this will probably be the biggest grind the game has had so far.

Just make the Virtues account-wide. It would be a fair solution for everyone, for those who only have a single character and for those who have countless alts.

PS: I don't think it would be a good decision to give the Virtue passiv % buffs, because that would just make them kind of a must have.

[Lord.Funk]

The best solution going forward with this new system is just to make virtues account wide. It can't really be expected for players to grind this out on every single one of their characters.

i would prefer that solution too. make the grind harder and longer - but account-wide.

and deeds in high-end level regions should give more xp imo.

In the end we have more or less nothing to do for at least 6 more months - better to do anything than nothing ^^

Seriously ??? Would that not also make it so that deeds becomes account wide. You realize that then You can only do deeds once on an account and that's it. which means only earn a finite number of LP and then nothing more. Doesn't matter if You make or have alts, no more LP to be earned, except a very limited new number that might come with new deeds from new expansions. Talk about playing right into the arms of the investors and company. Give them the excuse they want.

I can already see how this will be presented "We have listed to Your feedback and will now make deeds account wide". Thus NERFing the way to earn LP dramatically. So just another push to buy LP with cash. Great idea...NOT... Maybe that was the intention all along. Make people so desperate with this new virtue system that they wish for something like this and then they can implement it and even using some peoples request as an excuse to do it. Killing two birds with one stone. A new grind to push us to the store and at the same time NERF LP earnings in-game. Wonderful idea !!! Brilliant !!! Truly. *rolleyes*

[Hephburz-2]

We're (At least I) not talking about making the deeds themselves account-wide, rather making the virtue xp that they reward account-wide.

[Lord.Funk]

We're (At least I) not talking about making the deeds themselves account-wide, rather making the virtue xp that they reward account-wide.

Yes I agree that that would be nice, but also too good to be true.

I think there is a saying that propaganda works best when those who are being manipulated are confident that they are acting on their own free will, or something to that effect. Meaning that You manipulate and push people with something else into thinking they want some other changes when that was acctually the goal all the time. Works better than simply forcing it directly upon them. It's basically what all marketing is based upon. Make people think they want something. Even willingly part with their hard earned money to get it.

If they would simply make virtues account wide then sure. While still keeping deeds to be able to be done by each alt to earn LP, but why would they ??? Then they can not sell VXP in the store for all our alts. That would be lose lose for them. Instead they could have win win by implementing this new system/grind and also make the acctual deeds acct wide (attribute that to some peoples requests) and people will earn less LP and also pay for virtues. A brilliant strategy and people seem to fall right into the trap. Mission accomplished.

I'm sorry to sound so cynical, but having seen how the gaming industry in general has changed for the worse over the last 8 to 10 or so years. Starting slowly, trying to weane us into accepting the changes but accelerating alot the last few years has made me really lose alot of hope. It's like watching a kid let lose in a candy store and just want more and more. Never having enough. That is how many of these gaming companies now act. Eventually the parents has to put limits on their greed. Parents as in official regulations by law. Sad but true. These companies have been given so many years now to regulate themselves, put some kind of limit on themselves but instead they just grab after more and more. Obviosuly they are not capable of self control, just like kids most often are not. We as gamers/customers suffer as an effect of that.

The investors and venture capitalists behind publishers like EA, Activision, Daybreak (columbus nova, the renova group) do not share the passion for gaming with us gamers or the passion that the devs have. To the investors this is nothing but an investment they want as much return on as possible. An unregulated gaming industry they see as a gold rush, grab as much as possible before possible regulations hit and the gold vein runs out. They see no difference between the gaming industry or other sectors they invest in like aluminium, oil, energy, telecoms etc. This is just one of many sectors they invest in. To them it's not about passion, but all about the money.

[Palenen]

Note: I know that it might not be finished yet but the current Beta Build is very concerning.

1. There are now 60 levels instead of 20 per virtue.
2. You now receive a passive bonus for every virtue that is not equipped, meaning you might want to level every single Virtue to the maximum level to get its passive bonus. It might not be much of a bonus but it is a bonus regardless.
3. There is a new virtue (Wit) that will be Level 0 at the beginning.
4. You only get 1000 Virtue XP per deed and at a certain point you need more than 1000 XP per virtue per level which means you need more than 1 Deed per Virtue Level.
5. I'm pretty sure there aren't even enough Deeds in the game to get all 21 Virtues to Level 60 from Level 0 if you're a new player.

The new Virtue System doesn't even address the most relevant point in my opinion. Why are Virtues not Account-Wide? Does anyone really think that people will do the entire Deed Log for maximum virtues on multiple chars? This has always been the argument why people disliked doing Virtues. I don't have a problem doing virtues once ... but once per character is unfun.
All of this combined and we've got the single most grindy system that has ever existed in this game, forget about LI Scroll of Empowerment Grind, that is nothing compared to this.

You gain 5 or 6 points per zone running its content, The deeds whether is being quests or slayers or exploration yadda yadda. If the new system allows that much XP per zone to at least gain 5-6 ranks, It appears to be similar? I would be okay with that I guess. If it's anything more then I'll have to ask 'why' kill the game even more?

[eanamdar]

We have been digging into the state of the Virtue system that was just on Bullroarer to help us parse out some of your feedback on the expected amount of work involved, and there were some sources of Virtue XP that weren't available on Bullroarer this time. Expect to see a better picture of this system, our intentions with it, and your intended use of it in the near future as this gets better polished.

Generally, what we've seen is good. I think the concept is good. I dearly love the player suggestion to make this account wide, but beyond that I have one concern. I'm deeply concerned about how existing deed completions transition. How this is handled will determine if we have a fabulous new system, or have been saddled with a new grind. We need credit for the specific deed completions, and be credited with the new rewards for each specific deed completion; and other method of conversion will screw the long term player over in a serious way.