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[thefamilyosc]

At this point in time there is no more discernible profit by making the move to trait trees than they make from our current system, which makes your snark about it unfounded.

Mostly true(at least as I understand it). The turbine profit motive for these changes isn't in monetizing the trees from the store, at least not enough to make the changes worthwhile in themselves. Their motive was to update the classes and the way they play as one levels to attract and retain new players. Knowing you have to wait until lvl 50 to use skill x and then having to use it 1500 times to make it useful does new players absolutely no good. Some will find a reason to stay and eventually get their classes to a useable pt, but many will see only grind and leave. I've always said you need to play to at LEAST 30 before you get any kind of feel for how fun a class is to play, even higher for some classes(warden esp). If the changes inject even just a little fun and a proper glimpse into the class at alower level then it may help retain new players. Without noobs the game dies, simple as that, because existing player bases are never enough to fund new content on their own. People always leave(admittedly turbine has played a role in driving some away), if we don't replenish then we end up with no game.

[Minquinn]

the buffet system was unique... in SoA... since set bonuses it's basically been a stupid tree system with a derpy visuals. it has very cookie cutter builds that have there FTOM every expansion. the "players need choice" argument is kinda moot when I look at how I trait in the real game.

My own experience in MMO's is when changes to the trait system are revamped, players leave.
My own reasons for leaving WOW after 5 years was due to this. I had a couple toons that had a hybrid spec. With their revamp I was forced to spend x amount of points in a single tree before dipping into others. (basically 90% of the points)
Lotro's current system was nice because you could pick any trait from any tree at any time.

My other concerns about this xpac is that tanks will become used far less and ultimately become a useless class. I play tanks and an RK healer. I think this xpac is going to bring more of the new holy trinity into play. That holy trinity is 8 dps and 2 cappies. Since the mobs will hit like wet noodles any dps champ will be able to tank the harder mobs. The way the game is now pretty much every 6 man can be run without a proper tank or healer.

What role will these classes play in the future. Will they in fact become dps classes? If that's the case I gotta say I'm not buying it. I rolled a guardian and Warden for a reason. To tank instances. To me it's more enjoyable than having to figure out which 4 button spam is going to give me the most dps.

[redgold9]

Once again, no housing update. *sigh*

[Thorwyn99]

Seems interesting too bad there wasn't any way for them to see the Big battles that one would really interest me.

As for the class tree revamp i'm still wary, not that i mind the trees but i have seen such revamps go bad as often as good. I do hope it will make the small group content more challenging though.

[TheNightAngel]

new classes will change the difficulty in the instances. which is one of the big 2 issues atm. difficulty and the reward system. there is enough group content out there and BB is basically new instances. if your not classing that as new group content, your being too fussy imo. even a new instance would have mechanics many people might not like, so BB will do.

1) I never said I'm not classing it as new group content. I just said its highly likely Turbine wants us to spend a lot of time doing BB instead of scaled instances
2) True, class changes could change the difficulty. But you assume that just means making them harder, they could also be made easier.
3) Again, true. However, in a perfect world, Turbine would devote resources to building the new BB system and making classic instance clusters to please as many as possible, like they did back in the day. But alas, this is an aging MMO and they never receive as much funding at this point in their lifetime as they did at launch.

[djheydt]

My LM is rubbing her hands together, looking forward to Sic 'Em. I wonder how many
critters one can summon at once? Which shall I choose? (Will I have more quickslots
available to put them in? I bet I will.)

[bohbashum]

1) I never said I'm not classing it as new group content. I just said its highly likely Turbine wants us to spend a lot of time doing BB instead of scaled instances

they want us to spend a lot of time on the game in general. I don't think it'll make instances complete useless.

2) True, class changes could change the difficulty. But you assume that just means making them harder, they could also be made easier.

the simple fact there changing classes will mean people will need to relearn the classes. so it will make it harder.

they have said something along the lines of "our current classes can do to much which makes instances too each. our updated classes won't be able to do everything and have people make some serious choices". which sounds like a nurf in some sence imo.

3) Again, true. However, in a perfect world, Turbine would devote resources to building the new BB system and making classic instance clusters to please as many as possible, like they did back in the day. But alas, this is an aging MMO and they never receive as much funding at this point in their lifetime as they did at launch.

your point being?

[TheNightAngel]

they want us to spend a lot of time on the game in general. I don't think it'll make instances complete useless.

the simple fact there changing classes will mean people will need to relearn the classes. so it will make it harder.

they have said something along the lines of "our current classes can do to much which makes instances too each. our updated classes won't be able to do everything and have people make some serious choices". which sounds like a nurf in some sence imo.


your point being?

1) Past design decisions would suggest that you're wrong about where they want us to spend time. Plus, when there is a new system designed, they really want players to use it so it wasn't a massive waste of dev time and effort (and money to top it off).
2) Possibly, but something can still be scaled so horribly that its easy even with re-learning classes. And once you know your class, it could be trivial. A week buffer of something being hard due to class changes is not a good way to make content difficult.
3) My point was in reply that some people won't like mechanics. Which was a non point in and of itself. Just because some people don't like mechanics won't change Turbine's goals with the content they're producing.

[Vexendynamus]

"Sic 'Em" In a way, that exemplifies everything I expect from the class redesign. Whereas lore masters were once philosophers of nature, versed in secret lore, able to beguile enemies and control the battlefield, speaking the elusive languages of wild animals, convincing them to fight the darkness, now, they are gangsters with pit bulls.

I am trying very hard not to judge, but each new piece of information about the class redesign makes my heart sink further. That tree makes me think we are not getting 9 adjusted classes, we are getting 9 completely new, very dumbed down replacements. I hope I am wrong.

[bohbashum]

My own experience in MMO's is when changes to the trait system are revamped, players leave.

good luck trying to find something to back that up. the opposite is easy however.

don't compare WoW too. WoW changed it's traits every expansion it seems. lotro is doing it's first big one since MoM.

My other concerns about this xpac is that tanks will become used far less and ultimately become a useless class.

remove your tin foil hat please.

do you really think they would change a class so drastically?

a tank is for tanking. what mechanics is uses it up to devs. but I suspect guardian will be more reactive now than it has been, and warden stay pro active. but it will probably need more support from other classes to keeps it's survival up.

[Gondalen_Drake]

So thats it... "the big bad brother of skirmishes" and "that it'll be the new endgame, replacing the typical expansion addition of new skirmishes, instances, or raids."

REALLY??????

If thats true im really gone from this game. infinte and forever.

[Iozeph]

the buffet system was unique... in SoA... since set bonuses it's basically been a stupid tree system with a derpy visuals. it has very cookie cutter builds that have there FTOM every expansion. the "players need choice" argument is kinda moot when I look at how I trait in the real game.

And by that reasoning all such trees are stupid - something I'll agree with. But even so, there's cookie cutter builds, yes, and builds to drive toward certain threshold bonuses of a traits set. Yet what we have now doesn't necessarily shove you into slotting certain traits within a set that you don't want. A tree -one, which from the capture I see linked here- will make you choose. You build toward the bottom of talent trees, and in so building have worthless traits shoved on you just get to the one or two you truly want; stupid!- just as you've said. And if they're so bloody stupid I have to wonder why we're even keeping traits, virtues, and even trees?

Throwing in talents trees now -these latest- seems more about flash and show -See! This is where the money went! We didn't abscond!- and less about giving players choices. Out of the blue, now, we're needing more rigidly defined roles. Truly? And yet in the same breath Turbine says to massively they aren't making newer contents calling for those sorts of roles to be played.

Right. So we've trees coming now for what then -tarting up contents many of us have been playing on and off over the last six years? Contents I know I don't want to see yet again. Or is it the new talent trees for those three hundreds worth of single-player questings- the sort of drudgery the lot of us could do without slotting a single trait ever?

As they're at it - why not have rid of legendaries, traits, virtues, and even stats? Simply pare our characters down to their roles, the few buttons needing pressing to play them, and the kit they wear. Have it so the hardest choices a player should ever make are character race, class, sex, and then face. After that, once they've logged in, the worst should never come more than the costuming of the day and what colours to dye it.

I'd pay for that. Not much for something so long in the tooth, mind you, but I'd give it go.

[Thorwyn99]

remove your tin foil hat please.

do you really think they would change a class so drastically?

a tank is for tanking. what mechanics is uses it up to devs. but I suspect guardian will be more reactive now than it has been, and warden stay pro active. but it will probably need more support from other classes to keeps it's survival up.

I don't think the fear is unfounded, at the moment real Tanks are already pretty useless, at least in 3 and 6 mans. I actually do hope the revamp will make them more relevant again though.

[bohbashum]

1) Past design decisions would suggest that you're wrong about where they want us to spend time.

where?

2) Possibly, but something can still be scaled so horribly that its easy even with re-learning classes. And once you know your class, it could be trivial. A week buffer of something being hard due to class changes is not a good way to make content difficult.

it's took ~4 years of most classes having roughly the same rotation. many people's play style will have to change a lot, remember it's not just the trait system but skills and mechanics being fiddled with too.

the contents mechanisms are still working find. just the damage figures don't seem to match up. I suspect a nurf to how open classes are will massively nurf overall survival in the group and cause classes to really think about supporting the group instead of just "how high can my dps be" or "how high can my heals be".

3) My point was in reply that some people won't like mechanics. Which was a non point in and of itself. Just because some people don't like mechanics won't change Turbine's goals with the content they're producing.

but there is still a vast choice of instances around. don't like the mechanics of one instance, don't do it. simple. in RoR it's been very obvious that a complete solo'er can get great gear. just doing 3/6 instances you can also get great gear that can be slightly better. I don't expect BB to be the focus point of group content when they've told us it's just an alternative to instances and skirmishes. BB will probably give choices of gear and maybe a few better peices, but will not be the only thing viable to do.

when RoF came out, foundry was still good. when ToO came out, dracoch was still good. when OD came out, BG was still good. when revamped helegrod came out, BG was still good. when battle feild stuff in SoA came out, CD and Helegrod were still good. when skirmishes came out, MoM/SoM instances were still good. when erebor came out, hytbolt was still good. when loth came out, moria was still good. when OD came out, watcher was still good. when turtle came out, watcher was still good. when wildermore came out, hytbolt was still good.

do I need to mention more?

sure, we might get more people doing it. sure it might be shiney and new and might have BiS gear. but that doesn't mean it'll be the only one. especially with how much effort they've put in revamping and scaling other content.

[Namesse]

Mostly true(at least as I understand it). The turbine profit motive for these changes isn't in monetizing the trees from the store, at least not enough to make the changes worthwhile in themselves. Their motive was to update the classes and the way they play as one levels to attract and retain new players. Knowing you have to wait until lvl 50 to use skill x and then having to use it 1500 times to make it useful does new players absolutely no good. Some will find a reason to stay and eventually get their classes to a useable pt, but many will see only grind and leave. I've always said you need to play to at LEAST 30 before you get any kind of feel for how fun a class is to play, even higher for some classes(warden esp). If the changes inject even just a little fun and a proper glimpse into the class at alower level then it may help retain new players. Without noobs the game dies, simple as that, because existing player bases are never enough to fund new content on their own. People always leave(admittedly turbine has played a role in driving some away), if we don't replenish then we end up with no game.

It may be best that new players learn early on that there is a lot of grind involved (every MMO, tbh).

The plus side of use x skill is that the player has time to observe the effects, tho 1500 is rather extreme in that regard; without the stick to have players use the skill, how many will just use the basic skills they got in the beginner instance because they can kill mob quite easily with only those? We already see people at level cap who don't know important aspects of their class. Not to say that some of those skill usages couldn't be improved or revamped in some way (thinking of some of the burg skills/traits).

[bohbashum]

I don't think the fear is unfounded, at the moment real Tanks are already pretty useless, at least in 3 and 6 mans. I actually do hope the revamp will make them more relevant again though.

it's the knee jerk reaction we always see when any class changes are mentioned. people forget turbine devs actually like the game (and play it!) and don't change stuff just to annoy people...

[Sapience]

Lastly, the TP symbols are on the visual that has been released. Therefore its a reasonable assumption to say that its a driver in the decision to make the change.

Actually it's not. We stated repeatedly to the press (I know, I was there and actually typed it out in explicit detail) that the in game screen we showed them at the time of their preview was place holder and that the turbine point icons on the left hand column were entirely place holder art and would be replaced in the next build. Which we sent them a screenshot for.

THIS is the correct screen shot that we sent them after the tour. The skills on the left unlock as you progress through the trees. They're not gated by Turbine Points.

Once again, no housing update. *sigh*

The housing update is not part of the expansion. That doesn't mean we aren't still planning on making changes this year (after the expansion launches).

[thefamilyosc]

where?


sure, we might get more people doing it. sure it might be shiney and new and might have BiS gear. but that doesn't mean it'll be the only one. especially with how much effort they've put in revamping and scaling other content.

Precisely. Like it or not, they spent the time/effort to scale past instances to give us more to do at a lower future cost to them. True, the scaled instances have been far too easy, but disagreement on the exact nature of the class revamp/instance difficulty dynamic will only end when we get in and can actually play the bloody things.

[bohbashum]

See! This is where the money went! We didn't abscond!- and less about giving players choices.

remove your tin foil hat please and calm down.

read the posts here. think rationally. look at the picture. remember lotro is already in a ###### state. stop day dreaming.

what we have now doesn't necessarily shove you into slotting certain traits within a set that you don't want

depends what class tbh. warden is very cookie cutter at times. other classes have completely useless lines and completely useless traits. hunter for example, can live 100% play time in one line maybe changing 1/2 traits for raiding. that, is terrible, terrible depth in choice.

As they're at it - why not have rid of legendaries, traits, virtues, and even stats?

they have got rid of legandaries iinc. there at the bottom of the line now, capstones. I guess other lesser legandaries have just been converted into traits in lines. for example, you see the eagle picture in the blue line. you see the bog learker in the blue line. I suspect others like maybe hunters bards arrow and rain of thorns will be gated to yellow for example.

class traits are all on the picture I presume. no more

race and virtue traits are apparently having a little work over. but I don't expect much.

stats are a form of reward system. armor rewards bigger stats, biggers stats makes us happy. we're humans, watching numbers go higher seems to make us happy.

[Vexendynamus]

My own experience in MMO's is when changes to the trait system are revamped, players leave.

A certain number of old players will find the class redesign completely untenable and leave. A certain number of new players will try out the redesigned classes and stay. Will the latter exceed the former? Only the long lens of history will one day reveal that answer.

While I am new to MMOs, my closest friends have played many over the last two decades. They universally agree that class redesigns almost always end badly. From my personal perspective, nothing revealed by Turbine regarding class redesigns indicates they intend to continue supporting my personal play style. In fact, the information thus far revealed indicates they intent to ruthlessly excise my play style from the game. I expect to end up in the "untenable and leave" column, but hold out hope otherwise.

[bohbashum]

interesting...

[redgold9]

The housing update is not part of the expansion. That doesn't mean we aren't still planning on making changes this year (after the expansion launches).

Good to know!

[Elderban]

Is it me, or are there seven store buttons on the left hand side of the trait tree?

[Eartholloth]

Is it me, or are there seven store buttons on the left hand side of the trait tree?

I guess you missed what Sapience said.

[thefamilyosc]

Place holder icons. A regrettable choice of icon, but still, just placeholders.