Fellowship Maneuvers: Crucial--Read and Comment

[reynardt]

All discussion will be continued on an identical thread, located in the Suggestions section of the forums. Please follow the link if you wish to contribute to the topic, or if you have any opinions to possible changes or balance measures. The link is provided. http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=304510


Part One: Introduction and FM Understandings—Crucial: Read

Not many people argue this, since most do not care or are ignorant of the issue. Some people or Burglars might not feel anything for the topic, but I invite everyone to at least read through the topic and decide for themselves whether this is something worth debating with the Developers. I believe it is. When I first joined the game, the Fellowship Maneuver was single-handedly one of the most appealing mechanics which distinguished LoTRO. It was a gameplay feature which rewarded group coordination. I have fond memories of pre-MoM days in Carn Dum, flashing off Breath of Freedom, the most damaging combination in the game, 90% of the time on mobs. It helped teams to focus themselves and work collectively, and did so in a gratifying and natural fashion. Each of us may hold similar stories, but we cannot deny that FMs, in general, have suffered in the expansion. The Developers have refused to scale them, since they are unable to reconcile their content with successful group management. They have chosen to abandon this feature in favor of a more traditional combat system. Complex maneuvers have lost their viability. Most players can churn out more DPS or healing in the same stun duration than in contribution. It bothers me that in a Kin fellowship, no one challenges themselves above the obvious Pure of Heart spam. What incentive is there is a more complex combination? Wings of the Windlord for the ghosts, sure, but what about the others? Who honestly considers Hope of Men? This is my point. Complex FMs were a risk to greatness—miss one color and you compromised the entire string. It was a gamble of ability and organization, and it gave the game a unique facet of excellence, control, and enjoyment that Mines of Moria seems to lack. Why shouldn’t groups who target-mark, focus fire, and prepare order/colors be separated from pug mediocrity? Shouldn’t they be rewarded? The average pug is either too unskilled to attempt something complex, or is simply unwilling to try. Any broken defense is a desperate reaction of greens, regardless of the situation.
If any of you are interested, I ask that you to take a look at the Fellowship Maneuver section in the Lorebook. Here is the link:

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Mecha...ship_Maneuvers

Before I continue, I wanted to put the gap between simple and complex maneuvers into perspective. I wanted to begin by comparing Pure of Heart with Eagle’s Eyrie. Pure of Heart’s formula is simple: three greens and two blues. It is a five-man full house. Click on it. Below the combination table is a section labeled ‘Effects.’ As we suspect, the completed maneuver is worth 3 Greens and 2 Blues—a moderate HoT and a small power restore. Now, look for Eagle’s Eyrie, located under the four-man section. It is a straight. The order is Green, Yellow, Blue, Red. Click on it. The values should a bit surprising. Eagle’s Eyrie, which requires one less contributor than Pure of Heart, is more powerful. It equals 4 Greens, 4 Reds, 2 Blues, and 2 Yellows. This one maneuver equals the combined strength of Call to Arms—GGGG, Hail of Blows—RRRR, Planned Attack—BB, and Misdirection—YY. Essentially, this simple trip around the wheel encompasses the power of four flushes at once. This is true for any other straight. If you look, no flush on the list goes beyond a power of four. In a full flush of 6 Greens, only Call to Arms is activated. The other two greens, in places 5 and 6, are wasted. They do not contribute to the AoE and only afford a small 400-550 morale heal to the individual. In a group trying to complete Whispers Under the Mountain—GYBRGY, a failed input of only four colors is more efficient than Pure of Heart or all Greens.
Actually, we can go even smaller. Go back to the main listing. Select Will of the Strong, a three-man straight. The combination is Green, Yellow, and Blue. Here are the readings, in regards to power:

Red: N/A

Blue: Each member of the fellowship recovers power.

Yellow: Each yellow player does a simple melee attack. The target also takes powerful damage over time with 3 second tick and 42 second duration.

Green: Each member of the fellowship receives an AOE morale heal over time with 2 second tick and 14 second duration.

Instead of an actual numerical value, all measurements are treated with the symbol #. This can be confusing at first. This is because the maneuver operates on a fraction and not a whole value. Still, we can compare the group effects. At least for Green and Yellow, we have numbers we can draw on to estimate the range of power that color has within the arrangement. Mustering the Troops---GGG, is a three-man flush. The healing is only on a 12 second duration, instead of the 14 second duration offered by Will of the Strong. So, we must move up one tier, into the four-mans. Refer back to Call to Arms. To the right of the effect number, look at the description. It should be identical to the Green component of our three-man straight. Somehow, a three-man is able to muster as much healing power as a four-man flush, in one color. Yellow is only slightly different from its flush counterpart, Chaos in the Ranks. It only inflicts a single wound, instead of a double wound, but still shares the same duration as the four-man. While it is only slightly substandard to Chaos in the Ranks, it is vastly superior to Deception, a three-man flush of Yellows. A value of 3 ½ might be considered. Because the description of Blue is so vague, we can only go by the pattern of previous colors. It might range between 3 ½ to 4. Still, if we line up the combined output of this maneuver, we can see that it even challenges the five-man Pure of Heart. 3 Greens and 2 Blues are triumphed by a combination which requires the attention of only half a fellowship. Keep this in mind.

Further in succession, a straight can only become more powerful. Find Entish Justice, a five-man straight. The order is Red, Green, Yellow, Blue, and Red. Now, look at the values. The first color, red, has an effect power of 5. Green, Yellow, and Blue all have a value of 4. All colors besides Red, which caps the beginning and end of the maneuver, are just as powerful as any four-man flush. Dissected, it is equivalent to Power in Numbers—BBBB, Call to Arms—GGGG, Chaos in the Ranks—YYYY all firing off at the same time. The Red cannot be expressed in any comparable flush, since it has taken a level beyond any possible flush. At levels 5 or 6, a color becomes empowered, meaning it adopts a new function outside of its original script. While the Red still delivers direct damage (more than a full flush), it also multiplies and spreads the damage in an AoE format.

Finally, let’s return to one of the more popular FMs of the listing. Locate Wings of the Windlord, under the six-man section. The pattern is Blue, Red, Green, Yellow, Blue, and Red. Check the values. Red and Blue have a power of 6. Green and Yellow have a power of 5. The secondary ability of every color of the Wheel is available in a fully-completed six-man straight. It is the reflective product of successful group coordination.

Part 2: Suggestions and Wishful Thinking

If you’ve toured through Part 1 of this post, hopefully you can understand what I’m getting at. Ideally, it will inspire two things. First, that it will force players to reconsider their opinions on Fellowship Maneuvers in general, and that, by understanding the mechanics behind the system, it will encourage groups, in either pug or Kin, to begin practicing Fellowship Maneuvers actively. Every group has the potential and means to engage in a feature that was meant to be experienced. Every group deserves to know the enjoyment and rewards of perfect synchronization. If you find your group becoming frustrated with constant failure, remember the breakdown above and weigh your partial success against simpler combinations. Even the smallest straight can boast a power comparative to Pure of Heart. Don’t give up. Keep trying. Your persistence will be rewarded. Second, by understanding the potential of Fellowship Maneuvers, you also have the ability to petition their current state. As I’ve mentioned, the Developers have failed to scale Fellowship Maneuvers on basis that their implementation might render new content too easy for players. Without keeping the system on-level, Fellowship Maneuvers will die with Siege of Mirkwood. 15 levels of intentional neglect will starve them of any future viability. Without your voice, they will ultimately be scripted out of any meaningful use. If you honestly want to support the effect, /sign or /agree yourself in any comments you might provide. Even you if you don’t agree with the situation, please state why you disagree. Any and all feedback is welcomed. I’m tired of scouting through forum sections to find similar proposals.

Possible Suggestions:

Advanced tier rewards.
1. Whispers of the Mountain , besides its normal effects, bestows a 20 second pre-rez buff, similar to the Rune-Keeper’s Do Not Fall This Day.

2. Thunder of the Oakenshield empowers all nearby members with an additional +10% damage and -10% incoming damage for 30 seconds. Stackable.

3. Dawn of the Deep blesses the fellowship with a Lay of the Hammerhand effect for 15 seconds, except that all consumed power is siphoned from the affected mob. Great for bosses.

Make your own suggestions. Play with the topic and give your opinions on my post. And above all, have fun.

[geoboy]

In before the lock!

[lf2536]

Originally Posted by geoboy

In before the lock!

why? thread is so worthy of deraling it's screaming Derail Me! harder then the thread with that name.

mmmm... cooky!

[Belaeren]

Holy wall of text, Batman!

While this was interesting content, why was it posted in the Warden forum, and not in General Discussion?

[rent85]

He getting support.

/signed again.

[Asilonde]

I support changing the Waden contribution buttons to cookys.

[reynardt]

Originally Posted by Belaeren

Holy wall of text, Batman!

While this was interesting content, why was it posted in the Warden forum, and not in General Discussion?

I apologize again for the forum spam. Rent85 summed up my point. I just want the issue known, even though I did so in a misguided manner. I have since reviewed forum policy, and I can assure you this won't happen again. Still, hopefully you will take the opportunity to read and discuss this thread. I would welcome any and all opinions on the topic.

[Coryn]

Just today I had an interesting incounter with fellowship manuvres on my warden. I was trying to do the quest "fighting the brood" which involves killing elite spiders in the northern trollshaws. In the group there was me (level 36 warden) a level 36 champ and a level 37 burgler. the spiders were around level 40 and 41. since we had no healers we just decided to go green or blue on the fellowship manuvers. the one time though I was at almost full health and the spider was soon dead so I hit yellow instead. the oerson before me hit green and the person after me hit blue .Will of the Strong was the result and I was very pleased with it as it was able to heal both my morale and power which normally were quite low( I was the main tank by the way and I think I did a great job ) and it also applied a DoT which allowed us to kill the think much quicker ensuring that I wouldnt die before it did. shortly after the group disbanded due to a hungry champ and we never got to try it again.

signed/.

[reynardt]

Originally Posted by Coryn

Just today I had an interesting incounter with fellowship manuvres on my warden. I was trying to do the quest "fighting the brood" which involves killing elite spiders in the northern trollshaws. In the group there was me (level 36 warden) a level 36 champ and a level 37 burgler. the spiders were around level 40 and 41. since we had no healers we just decided to go green or blue on the fellowship manuvers. the one time though I was at almost full health and the spider was soon dead so I hit yellow instead. the oerson before me hit green and the person after me hit blue .Will of the Strong was the result and I was very pleased with it as it was able to heal both my morale and power which normally were quite low( I was the main tank by the way and I think I did a great job ) and it also applied a DoT which allowed us to kill the think much quicker ensuring that I wouldnt die before it did. shortly after the group disbanded due to a hungry champ and we never got to try it again.

signed/.

Funny thing. I think my love for FMs began in the Trollshaws as well. I believe we were in the same area you were (Wovenvales or something). People enjoyed the overall experience of the teamwork, and it helped our crew tackle the encounter with ease. Another place we used to visit was the troll caves of Book 4. You could say those were our training grounds.

Thank you for your input. I'm glad to see that the system is working for you. Hopefully, you'll be able to find a group willing to try a more complex arrangement. If anyone has any questions or comments, feel free to post them under this thread. All opinions are welcome.

[Belaeren]

Originally Posted by reynardt

I apologize again for the forum spam. Rent85 summed up my point. I just want the issue known, even though I did so in a misguided manner. I have since reviewed forum policy, and I can assure you this won't happen again. Still, hopefully you will take the opportunity to read and discuss this thread. I would welcome any and all opinions on the topic.

Sorry, I didn't realize you posted this in EVERY class forum. Hehe... Now I understand. No harm done, it was an interesting post regardless.

[Valinus]

I think maybe the system needs an overhaul. They have made changes to BPE and mitigation to improve long-term scaling. Maybe they need to do the same with FMs.

It will end up being a nerf on the low-end, but would probably be worth the hit to shore up long-term viability.

[Boogey383]

If warden's were designed off of fellowship maneuvers, then we should never expect any new gambits. Or something.

[lf2536]

Originally Posted by Boogey383

If warden's were designed off of fellowship maneuvers, then we should never expect any new gambits. Or something.

I don't get it.

[Coryn]

Originally Posted by lf2536

I don't get it.

The way fellowship manuvers work is a combination of different attacks that lead up to one big attack just like warden gambits. The big difference is warden gambits are used by the warden only and fms need the whole fellowship

[LtDiablo]

Not to put a big hole in your bubble, but the Burgs have discussed this in length since the launch of MoM, and we were flat out told by the dev, sorry. They fear the Burg's power and thus fear the CJ.

Would it be nice to have the big flashy CJs more? Sure, start a group and set the FM, but frankly CJs still make content very easily manageable. I don't think a Burg (yes I did this) should be able to be considered as main heals using Pure of Heart.