Thread: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

Originally Posted by DarrettTeldemari

Captains are a bit odd in this regard, as for us, you want to take the maximum Average damage with the slowest weapon you can find. This results in less power usage (Which is our main issue), more damage, and far heavier criticals on Devastating Blow. In addition, it results in far better use of Revealing Mark when using a Pressing Attack. In addition to this, in a PvMP setting, it results in a better damage given to damage taken ratio when moving in and out of combat range.

The higher Avg Damage value is what's giving you better damage on your attack skills. Nothing odd or Captain-specific here. The fact that a slower weapon helps with your high power consumption is indeed a Captain-specific tip, at least until Turbine fixes the high power cost of Captain skills.

Originally Posted by DarrettTeldemari

Our Shouts do delay our auto-attack, but I have never had it overwrite one. Of course, I never use anything faster than 3.0 seconds, so I tend to have an easier time stacking combat abilities with auto-attacks.

This is good information, thanks.

Originally Posted by DarrettTeldemari

Unless the weapon in question has a to-hit modifier (Sword, Axe), a slow and fast weapon are comparable in auto-attack damage. Though the fast weapon will see more hits, and be less affected by a miss, it will also see more misses simply by the fact that it is attacking more often with the same to-hit chance. As a result, the average damage is what will determine which of the two deals more damage using only auto-attacks over a long fight. This means two weapons with the same average damage will deal the same damage over the course of a long fight, using only auto-attacks.

Though the argument is made that faster weapons will hurt you less on a miss, I say that they will hurt you more on a -hit-. As many abilities have a cooldown time, and those cooldowns are the same regardless of the weapon speed you're using, you have an equal chance of hitting or missing on a given special ability with a slow or fast weapon. A hit with a fast weapon results in less damage, while a hit with a slow weapon results in more damage. Especially in the case of Captains, where it's common for us to have all our special attacks in cooldown and we're simply waiting 4s for Defensive Strike to roll back around, a slow weapon benefits us. We gain the same number of special attacks with a slow weapon, with the same hit-rate, but they deal more damage for the same power cost than a slow weapon. This means that the advantage of faster weapons (allowing more special attacks to be used in a shorter period, if you ignore power use) is negated, except when our longer cooldown abilities come back up. Generally, however, the higher damage potential we gain from those abilities (Especially Devastating Blow criticals) more than makes up for this perceived advantage.

You're conflating two separate guidelines and their resultant effects: you're mixing the argument for fast versus slow weapons with the argument for using high Avg Damage for attack skills.

Let's be clear about fast versus slow. Over the course of a *long* fight, there is no difference between a fast versus a slow weapon, provided they have the exact same DPS. But it's been proven time and time again that for *short* fights, a faster weapon is superior overall. Yes it's counter-intuitive so here's an example. Say you have two players of equal level with weapons that are equal DPS. Player A has the fast weapon and it hits for 10 damage every second. Player B has the slow weapon and it hits for 30 damage every 3 seconds. Both players have 70 hit points.

• Player A needs to connect with 7 hits to kill player B. This could happen as quickly as 7 seconds with a 100% hit rate.
• Player B needs to connect with 3 hits to kill Player A. This could happen as quickly as 9 seconds with a 100% hit rate.
• If both players experience a 25% miss rate (75% hit rate) here's how long it takes each player to kill the other.
  • Player A needs 10 attacks (2-3 will be misses); that's 10 seconds.
  • Player B needs 4 attacks (1 will be a miss); that's 12 seconds.

Can you see how in all cases, Player A has the advantage? Regardless of the miss rate, Player A will win the "race" because their misses "hurt" a lot less. Missing one big attack puts you behind in the race. This has been proven time and again. And remember, this applies to *short* fights only--that's where faster weapons always have the edge. Statistically, your odds to "win the race" are better with a faster weapon.

Your entire second paragraph is focused on the effects of your attack skills, and in LOTRO, these are mostly benefitted from the Avg Damage of your weapon. Yes, the +damage modifier is based on the weapon speed (slower = higher +damage modifier), so speed is somewhat of a factor, but for most attack skills in the various classes' repetoires, the damage caused by all the "extra swings" far outweighs the damage caused by slightly larger +damage modifiers.

Originally Posted by Amoryn

It might be valuable if you are only auto-attacking, but I don't think it does, or has the ability to forsee exactly which skills you will be using with your equipped weapons. Since so much of the damage most classes do are skill based, and not from auto attack, I don't think melee efficiency holds much practical value.

I agree with Amoryn on this point, and that's why I don't even mention the "Melee Efficiency" stat in my guide. I'm pretty sure that it's just some magic number based on the total possible auto-attack DPS; this is why the value changes when you swap your dual-wield weapons from one hand to the other. It's factoring in the 60% miss rate of the off-hand weapon. If you put your larger Avg Damage weapon in your off-hand, the melee efficiency number is lower than if you put the larger Avg Damage weapon in your main hand.

In the case of a Captain, however, the situation changes.

If a target has 500 hitpoints remaining, and you're using a 2.0 speed weapon with an average damage of 20, with Defensive Strike dealing main-hand + 10, then it will take 25 seconds to kill the foe with a 100% hit, 0% critical rate.

If I use a 3.0 speed weapon with 30 average damage, with Defensive Strike dealing main-hand + 15, then it will take only 20 seconds to kill the foe with a 100% hit, 0% critical rate. This results in us taking less damage, using less power, and dealing more damage over a shorter period with a slower, higher average damage weapon.

In addition, the slower, higher average damage weapon will result in far bigger criticals on Devastating Blow, and give a better result with Pressing Attack when using Revealing Mark. Since both those abilities are also on lengthy cooldowns, the slower weapon has the advantage.

For a class which is able to use attack abilities on a chain with little to no pause, I can see your point, but in the case of the Captain, that is not reality.

Originally Posted by DarrettTeldemari

In the case of a Captain, however, the situation changes.

If a target has 500 hitpoints remaining, and you're using a 2.0 speed weapon with an average damage of 20, with Defensive Strike dealing main-hand + 10, then it will take 25 seconds to kill the foe with a 100% hit, 0% critical rate.

If I use a 3.0 speed weapon with 30 average damage, with Defensive Strike dealing main-hand + 15, then it will take only 20 seconds to kill the foe with a 100% hit, 0% critical rate. This results in us taking less damage, using less power, and dealing more damage over a shorter period with a slower, higher average damage weapon.

In addition, the slower, higher average damage weapon will result in far bigger criticals on Devastating Blow, and give a better result with Pressing Attack when using Revealing Mark. Since both those abilities are also on lengthy cooldowns, the slower weapon has the advantage.

For a class which is able to use attack abilities on a chain with little to no pause, I can see your point, but in the case of the Captain, that is not reality.

I see what you're trying to say, but again, you're somewhat conflating the speed bonus to +damage with the Avg Damage bonus to the "one main hand swing" component of Defensive Strike. You're also conflating the higher max damage (that usually accompanies a higher Avg Damage) that benefits the criticals on Devastating Blow, because criticals are based on the max damage of the weapon.

This is why my guide is a bit fuzzy in the way it says "if you're primarily using attack skills with these types of properties" as its major guidelines.

If you played a Captain a different way, relying on different skills, you might find other weapon properties more useful. In other words, the weapon guidelines shouldn't be applied blindly to any class. Some classes have defining characteristics, such as burglars having many skills that use the Max Damage of weapon, so you can make some generalizations in that regard, but even for Burglars the Max Damage might not be important depending on how they play their Burglar and what skills they use most.

This is why I keep trying to emphasize that it's not really the fact that you're a Captain that makes any real difference--instead, it's the fact that you rely on the attack skills and play style that you prefer that makes the real difference in which weapon stats are most important to you.

Originally Posted by Shannong

I see what you're trying to say, but again, you're somewhat conflating the speed bonus to +damage with the Avg Damage bonus to the "one main hand swing" component of Defensive Strike. You're also conflating the higher max damage (that usually accompanies a higher Avg Damage) that benefits the criticals on Devastating Blow, because criticals are based on the max damage of the weapon.

This is why my guide is a bit fuzzy in the way it says "if you're primarily using attack skills with these types of properties" as its major guidelines.

If you played a Captain a different way, relying on different skills, you might find other weapon properties more useful. In other words, the weapon guidelines shouldn't be applied blindly to any class. Some classes have defining characteristics, such as burglars having many skills that use the Max Damage of weapon, so you can make some generalizations in that regard, but even for Burglars the Max Damage might not be important depending on how they play their Burglar and what skills they use most.

This is why I keep trying to emphasize that it's not really the fact that you're a Captain that makes any real difference--instead, it's the fact that you rely on the attack skills and play style that you prefer that makes the real difference in which weapon stats are most important to you.

Actually, Captains only have a few attack skills. There is no other choice for what skills to use. If I choose not to use Defensive Strike, then I get to use Cutting Attack (20s cooldown) and Devastating Blow (Or Pressing Attack, shared cooldown as part of a Battle-Shout chain. Also, 20s cooldown.

There is simply no way for a Captain to rely on different skills. If you're referring to a setup as a healer/buffer Captain, then it doesn't matter what weapon you use at all, as you won't be entering melee combat.

The reason I use both Average damage and Speed as an indicator is that they both come into play in combat. Average damage will determine your output with auto-attacks, which make up a good portion of your attack damage, as well as the initial "100% of main weapon damage" portion of Defensive Strike. Speed will increase your +damage component of skills, which is included in a weapon choice. Of course you're not going to take a slow weapon with significantly lower damage-per-swing than a fast weapon, but if you're looking at weaponry with the exact same average damage, the slow weapon will outperform the fast weapon for a Captain.

In order to achieve maximum damage for minimum power as a Captain, there is no choice but a slow, high damage, two-handed weapon.

Regarding the interplay between skills and auto-attacks: I noticed on my guardian that I have a few skills that do not seem to influence the auto-attack at all, notably, the skills explicitly designated as 'fast' in the tooltip. These are 'Retaliation' and the 'sting' skill.

Regarding the weapon choice: The higher level I get, the more power consumption becomes an issue rather than threat output. I've gone for slower weapons since pacing is easier with them; 2.0-2.2 is most beneficial for me at the moment.

Two questions:

On dual wield, is the average really the effective speed? So, for example, if I have one 2.3 wep and one 1.7 wep, they are both 2.0 weps in all scenarios? I.e. auto-attacks, special skill cooldowns, special skill multiplies, etc. To clarify, they would be identical to two 2.0 weps with identical other characteristics?

For the multipliers (like %MH + X), are you sure the X is not based on damage (whether avg or max) rather than weapon speed? If I have a 2.0 15dps wep and a 2.0 10dps wep, will X be the same? I am rather dubious, because I have been noticing my X go up and I have been using the same speed weapons, just doing more damage.

Otherwise, great work. The off hand damage reduction info was especially useful.

Question 1: No, the averaging ONLY affects auto-attacks, so in essence this system doesn't really affect you in any way at all.

Question 2: X is primarily based on your level. Weapons speeds will cause it to vary within a given level, but you can certainly expect the overall value to increase as you progress independent of weapon choice.

Originally Posted by Aurimar

Question 1: No, the averaging ONLY affects auto-attacks, so in essence this system doesn't really affect you in any way at all.

Question 2: X is primarily based on your level. Weapons speeds will cause it to vary within a given level, but you can certainly expect the overall value to increase as you progress independent of weapon choice.

Aurimar has the right of it on both counts, except I wouldn't phrase answer 1 as "..ONLY affects auto-attacks..." Speed does affect how quickly the "ticks" of your auto-attacks occur, yes, but Speed also affects how quickly you can chain your weapon-based attack skills. Assuming the skill cooldowns are faster than the averaged Speed of your two weapons, you will be able to chain your attack skills at the averaged Speed.

Thanks for the quick replies. So, basically, if I want to DW and don't care at all about auto attacks, I should probably do the following:

It seems clear that I should put my hardest hitting weapon in my main hand. For the off hand, should I try to get one that brings the average speed of the two in line with the cooldown of my specials and provides some good buffs over damage, or should I still consider damage the most important factor? I am thinking not as most of my skills as a champion focus on the main hand, as it looks like other DW classes do.

I'm almost thinking I put a dagger in the off hand just to help me build fervour as fast as possible, because as a champion, I have multiple attack skills to choose from so cooldown is not as important as available fervour. Or did I read it wrong and the cooldown of the used skill will prevent use of another skill? I haven't seemed to notice this myself. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember using specials while others were recovering.

Originally Posted by Chunder

Thanks for the quick replies. So, basically, if I want to DW and don't care at all about auto attacks, I should probably do the following:

It seems clear that I should put my hardest hitting weapon in my main hand. For the off hand, should I try to get one that brings the average speed of the two in line with the cooldown of my specials and provides some good buffs over damage, or should I still consider damage the most important factor? I am thinking not as most of my skills as a champion focus on the main hand, as it looks like other DW classes do.

I'm almost thinking I put a dagger in the off hand just to help me build fervour as fast as possible, because as a champion, I have multiple attack skills to choose from so cooldown is not as important as available fervour. Or did I read it wrong and the cooldown of the used skill will prevent use of another skill? I haven't seemed to notice this myself. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember using specials while others were recovering.

If you are a champion, you will probably find that you do more overall damage with a 2H weapon, and therefore you solo better and faster with a 2H weapon. Of course, a lot depends on the weapons you have available to you.

The skill buffs that a weapon provides should always be a large consideration in any MMO. Sometimes it's worth a little lower damage output to get an important buff.

If you're a champion, in general you want your main hand to have a high Avg Damage value. If you choose to dual-wield, I'd pick Speed over Avg Damage for the off-hand weapon, because most of your champion attacks use at most one off-hand "swing". It's better to speed up the rate at which you can burn through your weapon attack skills.

Originally Posted by Shannong

You're conflating two separate guidelines and their resultant effects: you're mixing the argument for fast versus slow weapons with the argument for using high Avg Damage for attack skills.

Let's be clear about fast versus slow. Over the course of a *long* fight, there is no difference between a fast versus a slow weapon, provided they have the exact same DPS. But it's been proven time and time again that for *short* fights, a faster weapon is superior overall. Yes it's counter-intuitive so here's an example. Say you have two players of equal level with weapons that are equal DPS. Player A has the fast weapon and it hits for 10 damage every second. Player B has the slow weapon and it hits for 30 damage every 3 seconds. Both players have 70 hit points.

• Player A needs to connect with 7 hits to kill player B. This could happen as quickly as 7 seconds with a 100% hit rate.
• Player B needs to connect with 3 hits to kill Player A. This could happen as quickly as 9 seconds with a 100% hit rate.
• If both players experience a 25% miss rate (75% hit rate) here's how long it takes each player to kill the other.
  • Player A needs 10 attacks (2-3 will be misses); that's 10 seconds.
  • Player B needs 4 attacks (1 will be a miss); that's 12 seconds.

Can you see how in all cases, Player A has the advantage? Regardless of the miss rate, Player A will win the "race" because their misses "hurt" a lot less. Missing one big attack puts you behind in the race. This has been proven time and again. And remember, this applies to *short* fights only--that's where faster weapons always have the edge. Statistically, your odds to "win the race" are better with a faster weapon.

I think your reasoning is flawed here. You are assuming that it takes the time of the weapon delay to fire off the first attack. In my experience (limited to 2 days play, I'll admit) The first attack fires off as soon as you hit the attack button or get within range. I can't ever recall having to wait for the first attack to fire off. If you take this into account you see the following:

Time----------- 00 01 02 03 04 05 06
Slow Damage--- 30 00 00 30 00 00 30
Slow Cumulative 30 30 30 60 60 60 90
Fast Damage--- 10 10 10 10 10 10 10
Fast Cumulative 10 20 30 40 50 60 70

Slow always in the lead or even. In this case both would die at the same time, but if they had 80 or 90 hp, slow would win. However misses can be devastating to a slower weapon, a run of bad luck on a slow weapon is far more likely (say 3 misses in row) than a fast weapon (which would have to have 9 misses in a row to equal the loss of damage).

I could be wrong about the first strike of different weapons, but I have noticed zero difference on the first strike between slower and faster weapons.

Guiles

I know this is basically a "max dmg per given time" argument, but something that everyone fails to mention is "Fellowship manuevers"
Yeah its not a guaranteed, but for me, in my groups, such as the GB boss mobs etc where you NEED to watch your power, if im out of power, so is everyone, including the minstrel. At this point I will usually pop the fellowship manuever and it will go something like this.

Boss Mob 1 (guy that spawns blueberry adds) - RRRRRB - because everytime he spawns adds he clears effects on himself (YYYYYB would be worthless because he debuffs it/clears it) So there is another full bar of blue right there.

Boss Mob 2 - guys that spawn undead adds - Can use YYYYYB because he doesnt wipe the effects. But again, you are filling your blue bar again.

Boss Mob 3 (sambrog) - Straight DPS fight with few spirit adds. Feel free to go all out dmg on him (make sure tank points him away from group). Use fellowship YYYYYB again and hes dead (easy).

Either way, almost all big fights where power can conceivable be an issue, isnt, as long as you have a burglar. And even if you dont, you stand a very good chance of catching a random manuever starter.
To me, I go fast daggers or swords. Max DPS, not max dmg, because power is NEVER an issue.
P.S. - with trip and bag of marbles , we can start even more fellowship manuevers for more power if needed.
Power should not be an issue in most groups. ever.

Originally Posted by dunginhawk

Either way, almost all big fights where power can conceivable be an issue, isnt, as long as you have a burglar. And even if you dont, you stand a very good chance of catching a random manuever starter.
To me, I go fast daggers or swords. Max DPS, not max dmg, because power is NEVER an issue.
P.S. - with trip and bag of marbles , we can start even more fellowship manuevers for more power if needed.
Power should not be an issue in most groups. ever.

You need to group with a Captain. Our normal attack abilities use 2X to 3X the power of other classes, and with fate not functioning, we don't regenerate power quickly enough to compensate.

In a normal fight, Captains are always the first ones running out of power unless they're greatly limiting damage output.

So even in a long fight with a burglar popping fellows you are still struggling for power? I did the entire GB chain yesterday with a capt in the group and about the same time I ran OOP he did too, and we popped a fellowship and all was good. Perhaps he was conserving, but maybe not.
Either way it sounds like captains are the only class with real power issues. I was mainly commenting on how burglars, with the dagger/mace debate wasnt much of one if you ask me.
Any burglar worth their salt (im only 25, so perhaps it changes) shouldnt ever been OOP in a long fight with 2 guaranteed fellow starters, so ill go with DPS anyday and worry about power if and when its an issue. Considering boss fights encompass such a tiny portion of gameplay, and we can compensate anyway, its a NON issue. for burgs anyway.

Originally Posted by DarrettTeldemari

You need to group with a Captain. Our normal attack abilities use 2X to 3X the power of other classes, and with fate not functioning, we don't regenerate power quickly enough to compensate.

In a normal fight, Captains are always the first ones running out of power unless they're greatly limiting damage output.

Originally Posted by Kovanos

Another issue I see that will effect eventual total damage output is that auto attack and "specials" share the same timer. Only very judicious monitoring of swing rates will allow for max damage output.

I think that slower weapons will increase overall damage simply because they allow for auto attack to fire more frequently without being over written by a "special". The average player will probably not see any benefit however to an attack rotation, but someone skilled in this will.

Not all MMO out there share timers. I wish this wasn't the case in LoTRO

It is my impression, based upon a significant amount of 2h play, that (as a champion) a 2h setup is more "effective" because it involves FEWER auto-attacks. This occurs because of the timing, allowing a player to "overwrite" auto-attacks with higher damage skill plays, rather than a pure auto-attack. I also have an instant attack that will basically NOT interfere with the attack timer (thus, with judicious timing I get two attacks for one, the instant and the auto-attack, both basically fring at the same time).

With a 2h setup, I see very few auto-attacks (mainly because I usually have a skill play available before the weapon cycle completes to get the auto-attack).. my goal as a 2h champion has been to minimize or eliminate auto-attacks in my attack chain. The only auto-attacks I regularly see are the "two-fers" I get with Swift Strike.

With DW I see a fair number of auto-attacks, simply because the auto-attack timer cycles more quickly than I can make skill plays. I think this actually serves to equalize the damage between the two styles, to a degree (the auto-attacks filling in for the slightly lower damage you get from the skill plays).

I haven't really done any testing to verify or parse this, simply because I haven't had the time.. it is an "impression" and it could be wrong.

With Champions, the extra punch of a Two handed weapon with most skills is more than enough to make up for minuscule increase of Dual Weilding's DPS.

With Dual Wielding, Champions have Power issues, with Two-Handers they do not. With Furvor on,the shields near worthless without Furvor on Champions are worthless, so weapon and shield configurations are only good for traveling.

Only Dual Wielding configuration I have liked is dual clubs, just because the double chance of a stun. But I would not take anything yellow or above with dual wielding.

If taking on a red, Two-handed sword is only way to go, otherwise the miss issue is a problem.

Yellows and Oranges I prefer two-handed Hammer Solo, and Two-handed Axe in groups.

White and Below, if only fighting one, it really doesn't matter,

White and Blues and below groups I like the DW clubs/hammers for the stun ability but I have to be quick to move to next target when the stun lands.

But the Two handed Hammers/Axes AoE damages can take out groups of greens in one hit.

Champions sadly are not that great solo against Elites, they simply take too long to take down, with little defense, the morale just does not last long enough. Through a Minstrel in, and you got a Elite Killer though.

Originally Posted by siroscar

Ok just to add some numbers and thoughts.

You have a choice between

2H 8 DPS +4 Might hammer with small chance to stun.
2 1H each with 4 DPS +4 might hammer with small chance to stun.


Ok I would think the 2 1H'ers to be better, I get +8 to might plus don't I get double the chance to stun and parry or does stun and parry only work off the main hand?

What I am trying to get at is there is a lot more to weapon choice then just pure 'real' DPS, stat modifiers, skills and traits, power, roll of the character(tank/damage dealer) as well as many other factors play a very large roll in rather to use 2H or 1H and I havn't even touched on shields

Agreed. Between stat modifiers and damage type (fire, light etc) I think most issues that could be min/maxed through parsing become moot. I am a huge believer that the damage type has a rather large impact. Anecdotal evidence only, but it really seems to make a difference when I'm not using common damage. Stat modifiers also make a pretty significant difference in the equation. I don't think I need to even go into how complicated that analysis could get.

I choose to play the best stats, as I see them, and factor in looking cool, because in the end that's what's really important

Originally Posted by guiles66

I think your reasoning is flawed here. You are assuming that it takes the time of the weapon delay to fire off the first attack. In my experience (limited to 2 days play, I'll admit) The first attack fires off as soon as you hit the attack button or get within range. I can't ever recall having to wait for the first attack to fire off. If you take this into account you see the following:

Time----------- 00 01 02 03 04 05 06
Slow Damage--- 30 00 00 30 00 00 30
Slow Cumulative 30 30 30 60 60 60 90
Fast Damage--- 10 10 10 10 10 10 10
Fast Cumulative 10 20 30 40 50 60 70

Slow always in the lead or even. In this case both would die at the same time, but if they had 80 or 90 hp, slow would win. However misses can be devastating to a slower weapon, a run of bad luck on a slow weapon is far more likely (say 3 misses in row) than a fast weapon (which would have to have 9 misses in a row to equal the loss of damage).

I could be wrong about the first strike of different weapons, but I have noticed zero difference on the first strike between slower and faster weapons.

Guiles

You're forgetting to factor in the miss rate of 25%. Your table (and resultant numbers/conclusions) assume a 100% hit rate. In other words, your first three attacks all hit. Whether or not you get a freebie hit or not at the very start of your auto-attack cycle is immaterial to the general principle--all it does is give the slow weapon a small head-start, but as the following example shows, it's just not enough.

Here's what your table should really look like:

Code:

Time (secs)---- 00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10

Slow Damage---  30 00 00 xx 00 00 30 00 00 30 00
Slow Cumulative 30 30 30 30 30 30 60 60 60 90 90

Fast Damage---  10 xx 10 10 10 xx 10 10 10 10 10
Fast Cumulative 10 10 20 30 40 40 50 60 70 80 90

This *very* artificial example clearly shows how misses from a slow, but hard hitting weapon "hurt" more if you're in race for damage on a short timer. The faster weapon could miss twice but still win the race to 70 points. The big weapon had to miss only one time to lose the race.

i beg the differ... :P

in my experience, if i try to compare DW vs 2H with Fast vs Slow weapons (which is usually the case IMO); DW is more like 25's (10+15) if 2H is around 30... not 10-30 like the examples above...

thus, @Ascus, i wouldnt call dual wielding is miniscule unless u got a big a## high damage 2H... it all depends on ur preference and available weapons of course...

i have bloodhand's doom and ladgris (18 and 21DPS respectively) as main weapon, while a Brognam (23 fire) as single 2H weps....

with DW, i can deal much much, i repeat, MUCH, more damage than the Brognam can produce... auto attacks at (on avg.) 50~75 per weapon, compared to around 70~100 for the brognam at much slower pace.... If i start using Wild strike/Brutal Strike/Relentless, im looking at total 300+ damage with the DW rathen than max 250 on the Brognam... thats not mentioning the miss/evaded/parried factor...

but,

i still do carry the brognam since if i fellows with a full group and we'r up against elite/named, it will take a looooong time to bring down, and with the Brognam, my power lasts at least 3x longer.... thus altho i can deal as much damage, i can keep pounding at the sucker 3x longer rather than dealing as much damage as i can then just uppercutting (LoL) the master elite for half the fight.....

combined from Shannong's post, there are a few summaries:
- fast weapons deals more damage overtime but u cant fight too long...
- slow weapons fight longer but u might miss...

so, i believe, IMHO, the best solution is to wisely decide for each fight....

for me, champ. at lv. 37:
Solo:
vs white/blue solo: is this even relevant? lol
vs white/blue mob: DW as AoE gives out double damages....
vs yellow/orange solo: DW as i can deal alot of damage, and it doesnt take that long for solo enemies
vs yellow/orange mob: 2H (+Athelas if Elites), just incase. i need to fight longer and AoE with 2H can be pretty good (when they hit)
vs red solo: DW (+ Athelas) coz its gonna b a long fight but with 1,000 power i can take him down before i ran otu of power. Elites = Greater Athelas + 2H coz its gonna b a long one....
vs red mob: run.

FS:
vs white/blue solo/mob: DW as i can dish out damage alot in a shorter time
vs yellow/orange solo: DW, same reason as soloing
vs yellow/orange mob: 2H, i need all the power i can....
vs red solo/mob/elite: 2H, same reason as above...


but thats just me

Should I be pausing between every skill to let me get an auto-attack in? And are hunters better with slow or fast weapons?

Originally Posted by Redbeaver

in my experience, if i try to compare DW vs 2H with Fast vs Slow weapons (which is usually the case IMO); DW is more like 25's (10+15) if 2H is around 30... not 10-30 like the examples above...

Ya, my original 10-30 example was meant to be an artificial extreme just to illustrate the principle that misses on a big-hitting but slow weapon hurt you a lot more in a short fight. Point being that DPS is ultimately a bad number with which to compare weapons because DPS is based on an average over a long period of time, and most fights don't last all that long (especially in PvP for most MMOs).

Aside from all that, you posted some fine examples and numbers and guidelines in your post that highlight something I've only recently learned: DW in this game is not nearly as weak as DW in most other MMOs. On the basis of pure auto-attack damage, you can actually do better with a DW setup than most 2H setups unless you're finding really great 2H weaps and really bad 1H weaps.

But it's still a tricky choice, as you illustrate well, because *some* skills end up doing a lot more damage with those multiple (or AOE) 2H " extra swings" and higher +damage bonus, and you burn power down a lot faster with faster DW setups.

I think your general rules of thumb boil down to this:

• For fights that you know will be fairly short, you will probably kill faster with a DW setup, but you'll burn more power. So if you're hunting white or lower normal mobs that are spread out (which gives you time to recover power), you might prefer using a DW setup.
• for fights that you know will be fairly long, you need your power to last longer so that calls for using a 2H weapon. So if you're hunting yellow or higher normal mobs, or fighting any signature/elite, or fighting in a fast-respawn area, you might prefer using a 2H setup.

This also points out a side issue: Perhaps one of the better "duo" partners for a Champion, in particular, is a Lore-master, because of the LM's ability to keep charging you up with power.

Originally Posted by Shannong

You're forgetting to factor in the miss rate of 25%. Your table (and resultant numbers/conclusions) assume a 100% hit rate. In other words, your first three attacks all hit. Whether or not you get a freebie hit or not at the very start of your auto-attack cycle is immaterial to the general principle--all it does is give the slow weapon a small head-start, but as the following example shows, it's just not enough.

Here's what your table should really look like:

Code:

Time (secs)---- 00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10

Slow Damage---  30 00 00 xx 00 00 30 00 00 30 00
Slow Cumulative 30 30 30 30 30 30 60 60 60 90 90

Fast Damage---  10 xx 10 10 10 xx 10 10 10 10 10
Fast Cumulative 10 10 20 30 40 40 50 60 70 80 90

This *very* artificial example clearly shows how misses from a slow, but hard hitting weapon "hurt" more if you're in race for damage on a short timer. The faster weapon could miss twice but still win the race to 70 points. The big weapon had to miss only one time to lose the race.

This is still misleading, though. The fast weapon is missing twice in 11 swings, for about an 18% miss rate. The slow weapon is missing once in 4 swings for a 25% miss rate. Of course the fast weapon wins.

To be more fair, the fast weapon should miss 3 times in that time span, and in that case they tie to 70, but the slow wins to 90. This is because, when racing to 70 hitpoints, the slow weapon has to do 20 excess damage that doesn't count. When the race is "fair" and each player has 90 hitpoints, the slow weapon is going to win. It's the overflow damage that hurts slow, hard hitting weapons, not the miss rate (which is totally immaterial, as long as both weapons have the same miss rate, whether the fight is short or long).

It is true that slow weapons are going to suffer more from variance effects that fast ones. But this works both ways - you might do a lot more dps than you expect, or you might do a lot less (if you miss a few extra times).

Even in the (unfair, for the reasons I stated above) example you listed, though, the slow weapon usually wins. If the opponent has between 11-30, or 51-60, or 81-90 hitpoints the slow weapon wins, if the opponent has between 31-40, or 61-70 hitpoints the fast one does (for opponents with 1-10, or 41-50, or 71-80 hitpoints they tie). The slow one clearly wins more often. The free hit in the beginning makes a HUGE difference for a slow weapon in a short fight, which is why slow weapons are ALWAYS the choice for pvp, which typically consists of a bunch of short fights as human opponents move out of range and back in.

Originally Posted by abashail

This is still misleading, though. The fast weapon is missing twice in 11 swings, for about an 18% miss rate. The slow weapon is missing once in 4 swings for a 25% miss rate. Of course the fast weapon wins.

To be more fair, the fast weapon should miss 3 times in that time span, and in that case they tie to 70, but the slow wins to 90. This is because, when racing to 70 hitpoints, the slow weapon has to do 20 excess damage that doesn't count. When the race is "fair" and each player has 90 hitpoints, the slow weapon is going to win. It's the overflow damage that hurts slow, hard hitting weapons, not the miss rate (which is totally immaterial, as long as both weapons have the same miss rate, whether the fight is short or long).

It is true that slow weapons are going to suffer more from variance effects that fast ones. But this works both ways - you might do a lot more dps than you expect, or you might do a lot less (if you miss a few extra times).

Even in the (unfair, for the reasons I stated above) example you listed, though, the slow weapon usually wins. If the opponent has between 11-30, or 51-60, or 81-90 hitpoints the slow weapon wins, if the opponent has between 31-40, or 61-70 hitpoints the fast one does (for opponents with 1-10, or 41-50, or 71-80 hitpoints they tie). The slow one clearly wins more often. The free hit in the beginning makes a HUGE difference for a slow weapon in a short fight, which is why slow weapons are ALWAYS the choice for pvp, which typically consists of a bunch of short fights as human opponents move out of range and back in.

Okay look, lol, the post that you quoted was a counterpoint to a post higher up where the poster was convinced of an incorrect result based on forgetting about miss rates. My post you qouted was tweaked just a little bit from his/hers to demonstrate how no, even in that very artificial scenario, the faster weapon could miss more often yet still win the race.

Here's the real deal, to respond to your counterpoint in this thread:

If a hard-hitting, slow weapon gets "lucky" and doesn't miss too much up front, yes, it can "win" the race even in a short fight. But the ODDS of the slower weapon winning are statistically lower. You can always beat the ODDS on any one fight, but over the course of many fights, the ODDS will win out.

If you want the best odds of winning the damage race in a short fight, a faster weapon is always statistically better. This is a done deal, proven time and again in every MMO (and probably in every MUD before the MMO genre was born).

There is only one exception to this rule, and that is in MMOs where armor mitigation works on the basis of damage absorbtion instead of mitigating a flat percentage of the damage. See the Lorebook article on Mechanics: Relative Weapon Damage Factors for more information.

Meanwhile I'm done beating this horse in this thread. I know it's a counter-intuitive concept to grasp and I'm all too willing to make a few tries at helping people get over the hump, conceptually, but this thread has spun off on the topic too long now.

Originally Posted by lastalliance

Should I be pausing between every skill to let me get an auto-attack in? And are hunters better with slow or fast weapons?

The Lorebook article Mechanics: Cool-Down Timers, and its related articles, should answer your questions.

Originally Posted by Shannong

Okay look, lol, the post that you quoted was a counterpoint to a post higher up where the poster was convinced of an incorrect result based on forgetting about miss rates. My post you qouted was tweaked just a little bit from his/hers to demonstrate how no, even in that very artificial scenario, the faster weapon could miss more often yet still win the race.

I believe he was quoting a response to my posts, and I wasn't convinced of any incorrect result. In fact, over about... 20 levels since I originally posted, my belief that -for Captains- slower weapons are superior has held true.

If you disregard the combat mechanics of combat skills and the skill set available to Captains, then yes, the fast weapon is indeed the better choice for damage output. However, given the unique situation that Captains are in (Inability to endlessly chain special attacks) the slower weapon is the superior choice.

In a general, "Weapon Choices For Dummies" thread, faster weapons are going to give you a better result.

The other consideration, of course, is playstyle; though I prefer a slow weapon, there are Captains who prefer a fast one. I outdamage them and use less power in combat, but the difference is not so great as to warrant a change in what is a comfortable combat routine in order to eke out .2 damage per second.

Originally Posted by Shannong

Cooldowns, induction times, and the auto-attack cycle
(Thanks to A99Barnsey and Brat for this addition)

Speed relates only to the rate at which your auto-attack "ticks" occur. The individual cooldowns on skills, as well as the global skill cooldown, are not related to weapon Speed in any way. However, the induction time of a skill essentially suspends the auto-attack cycle. Once the induction time is over, the auto-attack cycle resumes.

You cannot really suspend auto-attacks indefinitely, however, because of the global cooldown and because of individual skill cooldowns. The global cooldown timer provides a "window of opportunity" for a suspended auto-attack tick to fire. Likewise, if the next-queued skill in your attack chain is still on its individual cooldown timer, this provides another window of opportunity for auto-attack ticks to fire.

This is not true. I've a good bit of testing on this and have not seen what you are claiming to be true. The global cooldown is dependent on weapon speed. This is easy to test as a Champion. If you use two 2.4 spd weapons, use wild attack and que blade-wall and you will get this result:
Wild Attack -> Auto Attack -> Blade-wall
With 1.7 spd daggers, you can do this even:
Wild Attack -> Blade-Wall -> Savage Strikes -> Wild Attack -> Blade-Wall -> Swift Strike -> Auto Attack

Additionally, something else I found out that is interesting for DWing is that the offhand weapon speed does not affect the global cooldown. That is to say using 2 2.0 spd weapons (avg spd 2.0) and using a 2.3 spd and a 1.7 spd (avg spd 2.0) will produce different global cooldowns. The first will have a global cooldown of 2.0 and the second will have 2.3. So, it appears at least that the offhand averaging affect only applies to the auto attacks and doesn't have anything to do with the global cooldown.

I am growing tired of the Debate on Slow vs Fast weapons since it affects the real game so little, but I would like to correct this for the sake of the lorebook.

Originally Posted by Shannong

A final note on the fast versus slow debate
(Thanks to A99barnsey and Brat for reminding me about this)

In every MMO we see a debate about faster weapons versus slower weapons. LOTRO weapon speed seems to work more or less on the same principles as AC and AC2, which means that:

• In a theoretically long fight, auto-attack damage from a fast weapon versus a slow weapon that both have the same exact DPS will be equal.
  
  
• In short fights, however, the faster weapon always does more reliable and consistent damage and is therefore better for things like PvP where whiffing one of your big 2H hits can make you lose the damage "race" in a relatively short fight. Yes, a lucky streak with the slower weapon will do more damage but in general for short fights the faster weapon has better odds for doing the most damage within that short time period. I'm not going to rehash the math for this; it's been proven time and again even though this fact seems counterintuitive at first.

And your example from the lorebookMechanics: Relative Weapon Damage Factors:

Originally Posted by Lorebook

For example, let's use an extreme and artificial comparison of two players of equal level with weapons that are equal DPS. Player A has the fast weapon and it hits for 10 damage every second. Player B has the slow weapon and it hits for 30 damage every 3 seconds. Both players have 70 hit points.

Player A needs to connect with 7 hits to kill player B. This could happen as quickly as 7 seconds with a 100% hit rate.
Player B needs to connect with 3 hits to kill Player A. This could happen as quickly as 9 seconds with a 100% hit rate.
If both players experience a 25% miss rate (75% hit rate) here's how long it takes each player to kill the other.
Player A needs 10 attacks (2-3 will be misses); that's 10 seconds.
Player B needs 4 attacks (1 will be a miss); that's 12 seconds.
Can you see how in all cases, Player A has the statistical advantage? Statistically, Player A will more often win the "race" to do 70 points of damage first because their misses "hurt" a lot less. Missing one big attack puts you behind in the race. This has been proven time and again. And remember, this applies to *short* fights only--that's where faster weapons always have the edge. Statistically, your odds to "win the race" are better with a faster weapon.

I have modeled this very scenario (among many others) in excel:



And have run it many times, the faster weapon does not have the advantage:

Run using merely average damage in a race to 105 morale:
60 2H(slow) wins (54%)
39 1H(fast) wins (35%)
11 ties

I also made the weapons have variable damage:

changed 2h to 20-40 damage spread (race to 100 damage):
95 2H wins (53%)
71 1H wins (39%)
14 ties!

changed the 2H weapon to 10-50 damage (race to 100 damage):
65 2H wins (53%)
53 1H wins (43%)
6 ties.

Originally Posted by Hakon_Stormbrow

I am growing tired of the Debate on Slow vs Fast weapons since it affects the real game so little, but I would like to correct this for the sake of the lorebook.

I disagree. It makes a great deal of difference in the game.

The argument about auto-attack damage doesn't make a big difference by itself, but it's a starting point to talk about damage with skills included. Knowing which is better when you're using skills on a class-by-class basis is very relevant.

Originally Posted by marsh9799

This is not true. I've a good bit of testing on this and have not seen what you are claiming to be true. The global cooldown is dependent on weapon speed. This is easy to test as a Champion. If you use two 2.4 spd weapons, use wild attack and que blade-wall and you will get this result:
Wild Attack -> Auto Attack -> Blade-wall
With 1.7 spd daggers, you can do this even:
Wild Attack -> Blade-Wall -> Savage Strikes -> Wild Attack -> Blade-Wall -> Swift Strike -> Auto Attack

Additionally, something else I found out that is interesting for DWing is that the offhand weapon speed does not affect the global cooldown. That is to say using 2 2.0 spd weapons (avg spd 2.0) and using a 2.3 spd and a 1.7 spd (avg spd 2.0) will produce different global cooldowns. The first will have a global cooldown of 2.0 and the second will have 2.3. So, it appears at least that the offhand averaging affect only applies to the auto attacks and doesn't have anything to do with the global cooldown.

Hey Marsh, just wondering whether you've updated the Mechanics: Cool-Down timers article in this regard yet. As I told you in our PMs on the subject, this is good refinement and useful info. However, I am out of the Lorebook business completely until Turbine puts a formal arbitration process in place.

I also wanted to see the effect of different morale targets using variable damage on the weapons.

For the baseline I used the average damage hits on of 30 and 10.

I used morale targets of 60, 70, and 80. The 60 should favor the slow weapon. The 70 should be slightly in fast weapons favor and the 80 should favor the fast weapon greatly as it is right before the slow wepaon would get its next hit.

60 morale:

31 slow wins (76%)
6 fast wins (15%)
4 ties

70 morale:
60 slow wins (54%)
45 fast wins (40%)
7 ties

80 morale:
40 slow wins (53%)
31 fast wins (41%)
4 ties

Then for the runs with variable damage I chose 60, 75, and 85 as the morale targets.

The 60 should favor the slow weapon as it is exactly 2 average hits of 30 damage. The 75 should allow them to compare equally, since it exactly in the middle of both of their damage capabilities. 85 should favor the fast weapon as it is right before the 90 damage that the slow weapon would get on average.

Results:
60 morale:
50 slow wins (55%)
36 fast wins (36%)
5 ties

75 morale:
40 slow wins (61%)
21 fast wins (32%)
5 ties

85 morale:
50 slow wins (61%)
28 fast wins (34%)
4 ties

Interesting to say the least!

It appears that variable damage evens out the perturbations caused by the choice of a morale target which would favor one or the other weapons. Not sure why the rate goes up a little though at the higher morales. I will do more runs to try to nail the %'s down better.

Originally Posted by Hakon_Stormbrow

I also wanted to see the effect of different morale targets using variable damage on the weapons.

For the baseline I used the average damage hits on of 30 and 10.

Don't use a fast damage that is a factor of the slow. Slow has a monumental advantage when you do so. Try with 20 and you should get significantly different results at certain moral targets.

Originally Posted by marsh9799

Don't use a fast damage that is a factor of the slow. Slow has a monumental advantage when you do so. Try with 20 and you should get significantly different results at certain moral targets.

Just out of curiosity, I haven't had any time to work out the reasoning behind this assertion for myself (although it would be fun). To save time, could you explain it in a nutshell? Why do the odds shift in favor of the slow weapon when the fast weapon's speed is an integer factor of the slow? Or am I misinterpreting this side discussion between you and Hakon.

Originally Posted by Shannong

Just out of curiosity, I haven't had any time to work out the reasoning behind this assertion for myself (although it would be fun). To save time, could you explain it in a nutshell? Why do the odds shift in favor of the slow weapon when the fast weapon's speed is an integer factor of the slow? Or am I misinterpreting this side discussion between you and Hakon.

Well, the intervals never swap. For instance in a 1 and 2 spd weapons, at 0 seconds, 2 has the advantage, at 1 second 1 has caught 2, at 2 seconds 2 has retaken the lead. In otherwords, 1 is playing catch up the entire time. Same thing happens at 2 and 4, 3 and 6 etc. If slow didn't go first, it would be the exact opposite and fast would win every time (or tie).

And I was pretty sure I got that from one of your posts in the original thread lol

Originally Posted by marsh9799

Well, the intervals never swap. For instance in a 1 and 2 spd weapons, at 0 seconds, 2 has the advantage, at 1 second 1 has caught 2, at 2 seconds 2 has retaken the lead. In otherwords, 1 is playing catch up the entire time. Same thing happens at 2 and 4, 3 and 6 etc. If slow didn't go first, it would be the exact opposite and fast would win every time (or tie).

And I was pretty sure I got that from one of your posts in the original thread lol

Right I gotcha now. When you say "taken the lead", you mean by the amount of the "headstart" value. Yes, this makes sense for a sequence with no misses from either weapon, but we know how likely that is ;-)

Originally Posted by Shannong

Right I gotcha now. When you say "taken the lead", you mean by the amount of the "headstart" value. Yes, this makes sense for a sequence with no misses from either weapon, but we know how likely that is ;-)

It doesn't matter what the hit rate is. The mean of a binomial distribution is proportional to the hit probability, as long as the hit rate is the same for both weapons, the mean damage done at any time with the slow weapon is always higher than with the faster, assuming the speed of one is a multiple of the other as was stated.

Originally Posted by abashail

It doesn't matter what the hit rate is. The mean of a binomial distribution is proportional to the hit probability, as long as the hit rate is the same for both weapons, the mean damage done at any time with the slow weapon is always higher than with the faster, assuming the speed of one is a multiple of the other as was stated.

I think that you're confusing "mean" with "mode" here. To make the mode of a binomial distribution match the hit probability mean, you must first ensure that the n value of the binomial distribution is properly determined based on the target number of hits you're testing for, and the resulting mode of the binomial distribution.

For example: you have an 70% hit rate.

With Weapon A you must make 5 successful hits to meet the target damage value. The negative binomial distribution for p = .7 and r = 5 shows that the most probable number of misses you'll see before you make all 5 hits is 1 miss.

Therefore the binomial distribution that will most accurately match up the mode to the hit rate mean is one where p = .7 and n = 6 (in other words, 5 hits + 1 miss).

If instead you must make 7 successful hits with that same weapon to meet the target damage value, the negative binomial distribution shows that the most probable number of misses you'll make before you see all 7 hits is 2 misses.

Therefore the binomial distribution that will most accurately match up the mode to the hit rate mean is one where p = .7 and n = 9 (in other words, 7 hits + 2 misses).

Assuming that you're comparing the binomial distributions for the two weapons after their respective n values have been determined like this, then and only then are you comparing apples to apples instead of apples to oranges.

Originally Posted by Shannong

I think that you're confusing "mean" with "mode" here. To make the mode of a binomial distribution match the hit probability mean, you must first ensure that the n value of the binomial distribution is properly determined based on the target number of hits you're testing for, and the resulting mode of the binomial distribution.

For example: you have an 70% hit rate.

With Weapon A you must make 5 successful hits to meet the target damage value. The negative binomial distribution for p = .7 and r = 5 shows that the most probable number of misses you'll see before you make all 5 hits is 1 miss.

Therefore the binomial distribution that will most accurately match up the mode to the hit rate mean is one where p = .7 and n = 6 (in other words, 5 hits + 1 miss).

If instead you must make 7 successful hits with that same weapon to meet the target damage value, the negative binomial distribution shows that the most probable number of misses you'll make before you see all 7 hits is 2 misses.

Therefore the binomial distribution that will most accurately match up the mode to the hit rate mean is one where p = .7 and n = 9 (in other words, 7 hits + 2 misses).

Assuming that you're comparing the binomial distributions for the two weapons after their respective n values have been determined like this, then and only then are you comparing apples to apples instead of apples to oranges.

Why do you keep talking about modes of the distribution? It's meaningless. Just because the mode is the most probable number does not mean that it's the only possibility. There is no justification for identifying the "binomial distribution that will most accurately match up the mode to the hit rate mean". Most probable does not mean certain. You have to consider all possibilities, multipled by their corresponding probabilities of occuring.

Let's play a game. We'll flip four coins, if they come up two heads and two tails I give you a dollar, if they come up in any other configuration, you give me a dollar. According to your reasoning it's a good idea for you to play this game, since the most probable outcome of the coin flips is two heads and two tails, so we don't have to consider anything else.

Originally Posted by Kovanos

Another issue I see that will effect eventual total damage output is that auto attack and "specials" share the same timer. Only very judicious monitoring of swing rates will allow for max damage output.

I think that slower weapons will increase overall damage simply because they allow for auto attack to fire more frequently without being over written by a "special". The average player will probably not see any benefit however to an attack rotation, but someone skilled in this will.

Not all MMO out there share timers. I wish this wasn't the case in LoTRO

good god! does that mean that i could be in "auto-attack" mid-swing, execute a skill and inadvertedly cancel the "auto-attack" that was almost complete?

If so, what makes you think that 2H weapons in this scenario fire auto attacks more frequently without being overwritten by skills? is it because the auto-attack sequence is slower for 2H weapons and easier to time your skills in conjunction with the auto-attack? I would have assumed that 2H would be worse than 1Hs because having a "long drawn-out" 2H atuo-attack get canceled would be much more substantial of a loss than having "only one" of many 1H auto-attacks get canceled.

Originally Posted by Mike000

Auto attacks happen more frequently with a slower weapon? How is that supposed to work?

Anyway, I'll take a 17.5dps weapon in one hand (+ another weapon, both 2 sec. delay, or less) over an 18.5 dps (3 sec. delay) two-handed weapon any day. (Both recieved at lvl 30, as a champion.)

Originally Posted by a99barnsey

I think what he's saying is that sometimes special attacks cancel out auto attacks.

So over 60 seconds you might get 19/20 possible attacks with a 3.0 speed weapon but only 23/30 possible attacks with a 2.0 speed weapon.

I haven't really noticed this effect, but I haven't been testing much either. Just playing the game to enjoy it.

Again though, why are we assuming a higher ratio of "auto-attack" hits with a 2H than with DW? if you are proposing a possible "auto-attack" ratio for each shouldn't it read more like:

18/20 with a 2H
27/30 with a 1H

I would expect the chances for "auto-attack" interuption when executing a skill to be at least be equal for 2H & 1H, unless the devs sequenced the skills to fit 2H "auto-attack" tempo or vice versa.