Thread: Update 10 Developer Diary -- Itemization Information

"Hello all, RockX here! Today I’ll be talking about the Itemization changes being introduced with Update 10. There’s two main areas which have seen some major changes for this update – Scaling Instance Loot and Set Bonuses."

Read more in our latest developer diary from Jonathan "RockX" Steady, and post your feedback here!

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http://www.lotro.com/en/game/article...on-information

Try that link. It's how I got there.

Will the Barter Gems only drop from the Raids or from the 6 man also? Will they drop in the Erebor 3 mans?

"Each instance cluster is now focused on a handful of different gear types, so DPS looking for a necklace would want to run instances and raids from cluster X, while Tanks looking for a necklace would want to run cluster Y."

To recite Nobody (Dead Man): "Is this a lie or a white mans' trick?"

Are we expected to do 12 tank raids now? Even with 3mans there is the eternal question for a lot of people - why bother (because for example a healer will get nothing worthwhile from one, whilst a tank may get nothing worthwhile from any other instance).

To get more people run instances, you absolutely need to have something for everyone in all instances.

Originally Posted by Jullandar

... Even with 3mans there is the eternal question for a lot of people - why bother (because for example a healer will get nothing worthwhile from one, whilst a tank may get nothing worthwhile from any other instance).

To get more people run instances, you absolutely need to have something for everyone in all instances.

Because our Kin runs to gear each other we don't really have this issue. Having said that, I do agree with you, it's not the greatest feeling knowing there is absolutely no drop in the run for the majority of people. I can see this making getting pugs together harder.

One way around might be if there were things like Scrolls/Tomes/etc. Still not always the greatest but often needed/wanted and always good AH fodder.

It is a really bad idea to separate up the loot types by instance group.

Some instances will be more difficult and therefore won't be run as often.
Some classes will get their loot first/easier and therefore won't want to run other instances.

It'll cause a cascading effect.

Make it so everyone has a reason to go into every instance. A GOOD reason like good loot!

403 Forbidden

Originally Posted by Jullandar

"Each instance cluster is now focused on a handful of different gear types, so DPS looking for a necklace would want to run instances and raids from cluster X, while Tanks looking for a necklace would want to run cluster Y."

To recite Nobody (Dead Man): "Is this a lie or a white mans' trick?"

Are we expected to do 12 tank raids now? Even with 3mans there is the eternal question for a lot of people - why bother (because for example a healer will get nothing worthwhile from one, whilst a tank may get nothing worthwhile from any other instance).

To get more people run instances, you absolutely need to have something for everyone in all instances.

Yeah quite, so now our little 3 man group we have levellling has to wait to the point of, presumbly, 3 scaling instance clusters being available to us before we can equip us all, and what level are we first at to get 3 clusters available anyone ?

And its not like its going to prevent us farming instead we will be constantly farming X for a single item with no chance for several of us to get a single thing useful to us. Not to mention how are they splitting it, unless they plan on splitting these across 6 clusters we are still going to have issues as "dps" encompasses all 3 armour types for a start.

Are skirm raids getting new loot? How about more loot? 2 teals for 12 people isn't enough.

(are skirmishes "scaling Classic Instances"?)

Originally Posted by Nakiami

Are skirm raids getting new loot? How about more loot? 2 teals for 12 people isn't enough.

(are skirmishes "scaling Classic Instances"?)

As it says "apart from Helegrod which is a skirmish" or words to that effect, I would assume not.

Looking petty good to me, though I do have one question - the new crafting recipes mentioned at the end, are these going to be available from raids, or continuing to drop off any random level 85 mob? Because these random drop recipes are extremely unpopular with a large part of the player base due to the requirement to farm easy content repeatedly, and they are a reward for those that haven't earned them. Putting these recipes in the chests of 3-mans, 6-mans and raids (as tiers increase, so do the drop chances) would provide a worthy challenge to acquire these items.

Each instance cluster is now focused on a handful of different gear types, so DPS looking for a necklace would want to run instances and raids from cluster X, while Tanks looking for a necklace would want to run cluster Y.

Unless each cluster is based around this concept (i.e. cluster X is a group of instances that requires all classes to focus on DPS and requires minimal healing/tanking, cluster Y is all about surviving a set amount of time) I can see this being a bad idea very quickly. If cluster X still requires a tank and healer, and even support, it's going to get pretty nasty out there. Mercenary tanks and healers selling their services in exchange for doing instances that will yield them nothing good, compared to gold items for their DPS mates. Or, more likely, healers and tanks just not running the stuff, and glff filling up with "5/6 for X, need Mini/RK please please I beg you, don't join the other 43 groups looking for a healer. We have pie! *cries*".

I'm not sure how to put this constructively...
The phrase that resonates within me after reading this Dev Diary is "out of touch".

Segregating loot according to class/instance is the worst possible option I can think of. Truly. And this is coming from one of those fortunate enough to have altruistic friends in this game...

I also don't agree with the armor change reasoning. While it would appear that a change like this was being done because you really have your finger on the pulse of the numbers in this game, recent events have proven otherwise (IDOME comes to mind). Stats are always secondary to set bonuses so long as said bonus is appealing. Nothing had to change and the logic employed in removing them is really kind of confounding. But whatever - as long as we're all getting the collective finger, it's cool.

I guess.

Originally Posted by Jullandar

"Each instance cluster is now focused on a handful of different gear types, so DPS looking for a necklace would want to run instances and raids from cluster X, while Tanks looking for a necklace would want to run cluster Y."

To recite Nobody (Dead Man): "Is this a lie or a white mans' trick?"

Are we expected to do 12 tank raids now? Even with 3mans there is the eternal question for a lot of people - why bother (because for example a healer will get nothing worthwhile from one, whilst a tank may get nothing worthwhile from any other instance).

To get more people run instances, you absolutely need to have something for everyone in all instances.

Agreed 100%

This was my instant concern on reading this. Why will DPS want to run any cluster that only gives tank gear? they wont, or will certainly be a LOT less inclined to. Yes kinnies can do stuff to gear each other, but surely GLFF and pug runs would've benefited by the gear being spread evenly?

Any devs wanting to comment on the reason for the loot being done like this would be great!

First of all, thanks for sharing the reasons behind the changes.
Some questions, though...

Originally Posted by RockX

Each instance cluster is now focused on a handful of different gear types, so DPS looking for a necklace would want to run instances and raids from cluster X, while Tanks looking for a necklace would want to run cluster Y.

• Will there be a way to know which cluster gives which rewards in-game, other than the community gathering the information outside of the game?
• Don't you fear that this policy of focusing the rewards of a particular cluster on a specific kind of gear (either DPS, or tank, or healing, etc) will make running those instances uninteresting for good part of the players that don't need the kind of loot that drops there? I understand that the motivation behind this could be that old clusters are always going to have a reason to be replayed, regardless of what is the level cap, because they always will drop the best gear for a specific role. But still, as posters have commented before, there are some concerns.

Originally Posted by RockX

More recent sets, such as Ost Dunhoth, Orthanc, etc. have handed out both pure stats and skill-altering effects. This leads to a situation where once you get a set, you can only replace it with the next set to avoid losing stats. In addition, each set had to give stronger and stronger doses of stats in order to be an upgrade.
In the end, this isn’t sustainable. In addition, we want to allow players to have and make impactful choices in what they wear. To that end, we’ve made the following changes:

So far, stat amount inflation is not only happening on the armor set bonuses, but also on the armor pieces themselves. If raid X chestpiece gives me 150 Will, next raid Y chestpiece is expected to give me at least 155 Will, to use a random example. In the end, armor set N is expected to give more of everything (in absolute terms) than armor set N-1.
If the Ost Duhnost armor gives me X overall, and the Barad Guldur one gives me X+10, and the Erebor one gives me X+20, most are going to go for the Erebor one, regardless of skill modifiers bound to set bonuses.
Are you changing that? Are all scaled armor sets from different clusters going to give the same amount of stats (at least overall), only the skill-modifying set bonuses being different? Because otherwise, I see the stat inflation problem not being solved.
And if you do, would we be in a situation in which with every level cap raise, all scaling raids and instances loot and armorsets are scaled too, then making the latest armorset never being an upgrade in respect of the previous rescaled ones, but a sidegrade? Do you expect complaining voices from the raiding community about loosing interest on raiding within the newest space if the armor set is always a sidegrade in respect to the rescaled old ones?

Originally Posted by matalan

Agreed 100%

This was my instant concern on reading this. Why will DPS want to run any cluster that only gives tank gear? they wont, or will certainly be a LOT less inclined to. Yes kinnies can do stuff to gear each other, but surely GLFF and pug runs would've benefited by the gear being spread evenly?

Any devs wanting to comment on the reason for the loot being done like this would be great!

What I took this to mean was that the specific item would drop in a specific cluster, and so therefore if you were searching for a tank necklace, you would go to a certain instance and another for a dps - however, this does not mean that on the same instance which the tank found his necklace, there is not a dps ring, for example: I didn't read this as 'this is the tank reward raid cluster', 'this is the dps reward raid cluster' etc - but I could be wrong.

Yet clarity on the issue would be very much appreciated, as if Matalan's concerns are correct, it rather disincentivises those with only one character from running varied content, and as such will make it harder for the rest of us to find groups for specific instances.

Guys, I think you're reading it incorrectly. Certain instances dropping certain pieces is actually how it functions right now.

Instance Cluster A will drop a tank necklace. However, the ring that drops from there will be say, a DPS ring for agility classes. It might also drop a cloak for healers. Instance Cluster B will drop the DPS necklace, but it'll have say, a tank ring.

He's not saying the whole cluster will drop only tank gear, or only DPS gear. He's saying that if a tank wants to fit all their slots, they go to one cluster for one piece, and do a different cluster for a different piece.

Originally Posted by Tirian-Hammerfist

What I took this to mean was that the specific item would drop in a specific cluster, and so therefore if you were searching for a tank necklace, you would go to a certain instance and another for a dps - however, this does not mean that on the same instance which the tank found his necklace, there is not a dps ring, for example: I didn't read this as 'this is the tank reward raid cluster', 'this is the dps reward raid cluster' etc - but I could be wrong.

That would be a good way to go a bout it, and I hope it's true. Though that almost limits the most useful stuff to one cluster. If DPS gear for healer classes drops in an instance where tank stuff drops for tanks, there will be far more tanks wanting to run it than healers. Wherever DPS stuff drops for DPS classes will be the most popular instance. It'll be interesting to see how stuff is spread out, and how much variety there is.

Personally, what makes me unhappy is that the only way to get the best stuff for my characters is to run content that I already got bored of years ago when I played it at level. That, and the fact that scaling content rarely keeps any of the original fun or difficulty of the instance, and relies on whatever old, tired mechanics the instance used back when it was novel and fresh. Scaling is lazy developing, and it makes me wonder every time I hear how much revenue has increased since F2P: why are we getting less new content?

First, about the stat bonus removal on armor.

I really don't think that the reason players weren't upgrading armor was because of the lack of desire to break up the set for those extra stat bonuses - it was much more for the skill modifier bonuses which still remain. Also, the slices of stats from set bonuses did not change since 75, they were always 10 points, from 61 will on the Draigoch set to 38 will and 388 crit on the 85 Hytbold sets. Now players will be even less compelled to upgrade their perfect six-set of armor. If the sets had enough inflation in them that players were forced to upgrade to be effective, players would upgrade - In the same way the level 65 sets aren't viable at level 85.

Second, about Legendary gear drops.

At first it was really cool and exciting to see legendary gear available via crafting, but now it's becoming a serious problem. A large portion of the best gear in the game now has to be farmed, and cannot be earned. I know people who farm the crafting instances now for 6 hours a day, striving to get their characters as good as they can be. The best gear tells players where to expend their play time effort. I completely support having it be very rare random drops from instances, or recipes be very rare random drops from mobs, but a path to earning them, even at extreme cost, is what the system is lacking.

Third, I'm really glad to see all the old instances get some new Teal loot. I love running some of those older ones, and I've very happy to see that there will be renewed interest in them.

The ONLY way I can see this working (one loot for one class only from each instance) is if you make the instance so that a group of 12 minis or 12 hunter or 12 tanks can run it.. how ridiculous.

Getting a group together to run something that has absolutely NO gain (?) in terms of armor for 10 of the 12 or 11 of the 12 players running it is going to be next to impossible.

Please consider this: random loot drops for *all* classes in *all* instances but make the boss/bosses or chest drop *guaranteed* for one particular class.

So out of instance X, you have the armor pieces given at the end boss for mini with random drops from random mobs for other classes but from instance Y, the boss/bosses/chest will have an armor piece drop for guard with random drops from mobs for other classes....I suggest this IF you just have to have specific instances have specific drops for specific classes.

Originally Posted by BigLotroFan

:/ I don't really have a problem with the loot system or the way legendary quality items/recipes drop. I just understand them to be items that not everyone is supposed to have. More like a treasure some lucky person finds. So if it happens it happens. Everything shouldn't be attainable via a simple A to Z route. Especially when there already is plenty of gear that is attainable that way is and is more than good enough to do all the content in the game. It's like being Bilbo (or Gollum) and coming across the One Ring by chance vs giving them a guaranteed path of acquiring it.

Well, considering Turbine's favorite raid tactic has become DPS RACE MOAR DOTS!!1one!, we've had to become more and more concerned with that 1% improvement than before. If they go back to more creative raid tactics, where groups can be just as successful with a balanced group as they can by bringing 4 Burgs, then this itemization is fine with me. There will always be min-maxers for PvP, and just because, but it feels like they created even more of a stigma against A-minus Grade gear when they decided to balance T2C around having A-plus gear.

Obviously, each piece is just a small bonus in itself (though some of the class-specific pieces are pretty clearly game-changing), but together, they are pretty powerful. Hopefully the content is designed so that the new stuff is something you'd *like* to have, but not necessary for completing the content.

Originally Posted by Allorn

The ONLY way I can see this working (one loot for one class only from each instance) is if you make the instance so that a group of 12 minis or 12 hunter or 12 tanks can run it.. how ridiculous.

Getting a group together to run something that has absolutely NO gain (?) in terms of armor for 10 of the 12 or 11 of the 12 players running it is going to be next to impossible.

Please consider this: random loot drops for *all* classes in *all* instances but make the boss/bosses or chest drop *guaranteed* for one particular class.

So out of instance X, you have the armor pieces given at the end boss for mini with random drops from random mobs for other classes but from instance Y, the boss/bosses/chest will have an armor piece drop for guard with random drops from mobs for other classes....I suggest this IF you just have to have specific instances have specific drops for specific classes.

Please read Rowan's comments - what you suggested will not happen, as in each cluster there will be, for example, a tank neck, a might earring, an agi bracelet and a will pocket.

Originally Posted by Tirian-Hammerfist

Please read Rowan's comments - what you suggested will not happen, as in each cluster there will be, for example, a tank neck, a might earring, an agi bracelet and a will pocket.

Sure, but will they all be desirable?

Or will it be like the current instances, in which groups of 3 casters are running Iorbar's Peak, and Champ/Guard/Captain groups are running Warg Pens?

It does no good to have a might earring in the same cluster as a will pocket if a better version of either can be found somewhere else. Each cluster needs to have a best-in-slot item for every class, or it won't matter, especially since every cluster (save the new Erebor instances) will be years old recycled content.

Originally Posted by Lestache

Sure, but will they all be desirable?

Or will it be like the current instances, in which groups of 3 casters are running Iorbar's Peak, and Champ/Guard/Captain groups are running Warg Pens?

It does no good to have a might earring in the same cluster as a will pocket if a better version of either can be found somewhere else. Each cluster needs to have a best-in-slot item for every class, or it won't matter, especially since every cluster (save the new Erebor instances) will be years old recycled content.

Different spaces will drop gear with different focuses. Some pieces might be more focused towards being a glass cannon, some with more of a focus on survivability.

As to desirability, well, what's not desirable to you may be to someone else. Or might become desirable in the future.

Thanks for clarifying Rock. It doesn't sound so bad... Options are appreciated.

Originally Posted by RockX

Different spaces will drop gear with different focuses. Some pieces might be more focused towards being a glass cannon, some with more of a focus on survivability.

As to desirability, well, what's not desirable to you may be to someone else. Or might become desirable in the future.

Ok 1st this isn't a criticism rockx, but I do hope you give the following some thought

a. If fornost, Bg, Hele and other scaled content(that people ran ad infinitum already) showed anything it showed that old content only really gets run often for it's loot. You guys should have ample metrics to show that.

b. If the tank classes have no incentive to run instance/cluster A due to loot options, your going to have an issue. Good luck to the poor puggers who need/want whatever digital widget is in there. Same for heals/cc/dps, the recent loot dramas should have told you guys something about allot of this games pop. Your relying on people running old content out of the goodness of their heart to help gear others. My guess is that particularly on smaller pop servers there will be *issues*


I implore you guys, hire a behaviorist or someone with a psych degree or someone with working experience in group dynamics, it will save allot of headaches all around