While I don't have a ton of seals saved up, I'm not particularly pleased by this. Right now, I run the various endgame instances/raids not because I need the armor/gear, but because the seals give me some payoff for running something the nth time to help other people get the gear they need.
With this reset, the next time I find myself finished gearing up, I'm am going to be much less likely to run that content, because even the meager currency incentive will ultimately be pointless. Instead, I'll either level a lower level alt, or more likely, spend more time in another game.
A better solution would be to lock the armor pieces behind deeds (insuring new content has to be run at least once) and raise the seal cost for the new pieces. Yes, some people would only have to run the stuff once to get the armor, but so what? Those people were running this content non-stop to accumulate those seals, and would likely be running the new stuff non-stop as well. I think this is going to actually have a negative impact on the endgame.
Therein lies half the problem. I don't have 3500 seals because I'm hording them for the new armor. I have 3500 seals because there is nothing to spend them on. Everything I need or want can be bought with marks/medallions. Give use useful stuff to spend the currency on before taking it away because we're "hording" it.
So, the objection is that they're converting an essentially useless currency into a useful one?
Those FIENDS....
The forums are not an accurate representation of the thoughts and feelings of the whole player base. Those who like a particular feature are in the game enjoying that feature. Those who don't like it log out to mention it on the forums. It is a relevant but biased source of feedback, and any claims of community desire should take this fact into account.
So yes, even though this was known in like update 6 with the original consolodation the whole point of this thread is another forum crying post.
Come on people. Its a game, you arent loosing anything, and everything stated in the OP's link was already knwon in like update 6 or 7? So why cry now?
What I am curious about: how many seals were considered too much by Turbine?
100? 1,000? 100,000?
I have 212 seals. Is that too much? How many pieces of raid gear would I have been able to purchase with those if they wouldn't be taken away from my account?
It makes sense. The idea that you could buy level 85 raid gear with currency you earned running level 75 content is silly. If it doesn't strike you as a bit ridiculous, extrapolate that: imagine buying level 105 gear in 2016 with the seals you earned running level 75 content in 2012.
If you don't feel that you should have to beat level 85 content to get level 85 gear, then say so. Also, push for a single currency so that you can use skirmish marks you earned at level 20 to buy raid gear at 85, because that's nearly the same thing (just taken in the other direction).
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
It makes sense. The idea that you could buy level 85 raid gear with currency you earned running level 75 content is silly.
Why is that silly? I can work at McDonald's and use my low-paid dollars as part of the payment for my shiny new car. Thank god there are no McD's dollars, Honda's dollars and GeneralElectrics dollars.
Last edited by LadyDena; Feb 05 2013 at 03:00 PM.
The only thing worse than a company making bad decisions, is the apologists who cheer it on.
I'm confident everything that currently costs seals is or will be available for marks/medallions. In fact, you will probably be able to purchase MORE items with the 1 seal = 20 medallions conversion.
For new items like the raid sets and 1st Ages that cost seals, everyone will have an equal start. Also I'm sure they want people to, you know, actually play the new content.
I'm confident everything that currently costs seals is or will be available for marks/medallions. In fact, you will probably be able to purchase MORE items with the 1 seal = 20 medallions conversion.
For new items like the raid sets and 1st Ages that cost seals, everyone will have an equal start. Also I'm sure they want people to, you know, actually play the new content.
Why should everyone have an equal start? Why should someone who raids everyday have to start on the same foot as someone who raids long enough to get the new gear and then disappears from the game for 3-4 months?
There are ways to make someone need/want to run the new content (deed-gating, for starters) without having to invalidate the past efforts of players who play the game consistently.
You know, some of you might have a point of getting stuff with level 75 earned seals and that they need to be converted except for the fact that I've received quite a few seals from level 85 content. I've been earning those seals for a few months now from running level 85 content and yet they are going to be treated just like level 75 seals. That alone is enough to refute your reasoning.
I agree with another poster that there should be no conversions. It makes sense to leave all currencies alone and increase the costs as well as the rewards on the new level cap content to make up for the difference. So what if some people get a head start on the currencies? Aren't those the very people who are likely to be sticking around for a while playing the new content? They obviously stuck around long enough to play the old content quite a lot and likely the new, old content in order to earn the currencies they have.
Why should everyone have an equal start? Why should someone who raids everyday have to start on the same foot as someone who raids long enough to get the new gear and then disappears from the game for 3-4 months?
There are ways to make someone need/want to run the new content (deed-gating, for starters) without having to invalidate the past efforts of players who play the game consistently.
The person who raids every day will have the head start of not being rusty. Our kin took about 3-4 months off from raiding, and it showed.
Nothing you did in the past, other than refining your skill rotation and whatever gear you've earned from past efforts, should be applicable towards obtaining gear from a new raid.
I'm glad that there does appear to be a T2 gate to acquire the best new armor sets (at least according to early reports about the current BR build), though. Otherwise, the position you're advocating states that someone who currently has 10,000 seals and facerolls T1 somehow deserves to get the gear sooner than someone who has zero seals but clears T2C.
Originally Posted by DrnknElf
You know, some of you might have a point of getting stuff with level 75 earned seals and that they need to be converted except for the fact that I've received quite a few seals from level 85 content. I've been earning those seals for a few months now from running level 85 content and yet they are going to be treated just like level 75 seals. That alone is enough to refute your reasoning.
I agree with another poster that there should be no conversions. It makes sense to leave all currencies alone and increase the costs as well as the rewards on the new level cap content to make up for the difference. So what if some people get a head start on the currencies? Aren't those the very people who are likely to be sticking around for a while playing the new content? They obviously stuck around long enough to play the old content quite a lot and likely the new, old content in order to earn the currencies they have.
Fair point about the level 85 seals - someone else pointed that out to me in another discussion. I completely forgot about those, considering that I've barely run any of the level 85 content in Rohan (hit each new 3-man to see what they're like, ran BG T2C, and that's about it - I'm not a fan of recycled content (skrimish raids, DG) or poor itemization (3-mans)).
The conversion probably should've been done at the start of Rohan, but it also should've been accompanied by the raids being released at that time as well. It does seem inequitable that seals earned for beating level 85 content are treated the same as seals earned for beating level 75 content, but I understand the conversion nonetheless.
Now that I think about it, it was quite silly that one could get the Orthanc gear by zipping through T1 once than never setting foot in the raid again and, instead, grinding out even easier content. Here's hoping that the alleged T2 deed gate that I'm hearing about makes it into Live.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
You know, some of you might have a point of getting stuff with level 75 earned seals and that they need to be converted except for the fact that I've received quite a few seals from level 85 content. I've been earning those seals for a few months now from running level 85 content and yet they are going to be treated just like level 75 seals. That alone is enough to refute your reasoning.
I agree it becomes a little tricky with seals earned from the level 85 Erebor 3-mans especially. However, those are something like 4 seals each.
Originally Posted by Sthrax
Why should everyone have an equal start? Why should someone who raids everyday have to start on the same foot as someone who raids long enough to get the new gear and then disappears from the game for 3-4 months?
There are ways to make someone need/want to run the new content (deed-gating, for starters) without having to invalidate the past efforts of players who play the game consistently.
I don't think anything is invalidated, nobody has played the new cluster (aside from the 3-mans). Current raiders still get plenty of rewards, just not the new rewards. In the past, acquiring tons of currency from a previous/lower level raid has never been usable for a newer raid, why should that change now?
Now that I think about it, it was quite silly that one could get the Orthanc gear by zipping through T1 once than never setting foot in the raid again and, instead, grinding out even easier content. Here's hoping that the alleged T2 deed gate that I'm hearing about makes it into Live.
Unfortunately since it's a scaling instance, the deed can be completed with just a couple people running the instances at 20. It won't net you the seals needed, but it unlocks the requirements pretty easily.
Unfortunately since it's a scaling instance, the deed can be completed with just a couple people running the instances at 20. It won't net you the seals needed, but it unlocks the requirements pretty easily.
Yeah, I've seen that mentioned.
I know that many of us would like to see that adjusted so that only a level 85 clear unlocks the deed, but I'm willing to bet that won't happen because "the tech for that doesn't exist yet" - a claim which I would believe, by the way, but it makes for a pretty pointless gate.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
I know that many of us would like to see that adjusted so that only a level 85 clear unlocks the deed, but I'm willing to bet that won't happen because "the tech for that doesn't exist yet" - a claim which I would believe, by the way, but it makes for a pretty pointless gate.
Honestly it'd be pretty easy if they gated it behind the challenge quest (though it would then be harder to actually complete it), assuming they disabled the challenge quest below level cap like they've done with literally every instance besides the Erebor three-mans.
Maybe they could gate one behind T2 and gate the other behind challenge (since each instance gates two armour pieces of the six). It'd essentially work like BG did then, with one of those armour tokens coming from the regular chest and one coming from the challenge chest at each boss. Of course, since the challenge quests aren't disabled on the 3-mans below cap, I doubt the raid ones are, which puts us back in the same situation.
I'm a casual player, don't like to grind, don't play a lot of the larger instances often (we have a small kin), and have worked hard to get my seals. I would really hate to see them simply wiped out just because other people may have a few hundred seals that they have been collecting.
What's the solution to this?
Simple. Keep the seals, but require an instance token to purchase the gear as well. A T1 instance token (plus SMs, seals, medallions, whatever) will get you purple/teal gear and a T2 token (plus SMs, seals, medallions, whatever) will get you teal/orange gear and if there's a T3, well then the same, but it would get you the orange gear.
Got the T1 gear already? Use that plus a T2 token and some seals/medallions to get the T2 gear. Same goes for T2 to T3 (if it exists).
This can work for every current instance and every instance from here on out.
I don't see why Turbine has to change things around, wipe currencies or add a new currency (that quickly becomes obsolete with the next level increase) every time a new instance cluster comes out. It's going to be mind-boggling how much "currency" we're going to have by the time we hit Mordor.
I can't tell you how many Medallions of Moria, Medallions of Lothlorien, Medallions of the North Men, Orthanc Sigil Fragments I would love to get rid of, but probably never will because they are pretty much obsolete. Furthermore, it would be a waste to use them on an alt because the armor would only be good for a few levels. Now, if we were allowed to convert THOSE to marks, medallions or seals, I would love to be able to do that (along with my Anorian Coins and Lothlorien Branches and whatever other obsolete currency I have on my max-level characters).
I can't tell you how many Medallions of Moria, Medallions of Lothlorien, Medallions of the North Men, Orthanc Sigil Fragments I would love to get rid of, but probably never will because they are pretty much obsolete. Furthermore, it would be a waste to use them on an alt because the armor would only be good for a few levels. Now, if we were allowed to convert THOSE to marks, medallions or seals, I would love to be able to do that (along with my Anorian Coins and Lothlorien Branches and whatever other obsolete currency I have on my max-level characters).
Moria Medallions can be traded for relics, useful for any level. Northmen medallions can be traded in for Stat scrolls. Sigil Fragments can be turned in for Seals.
Unfortunately for most of us, Northmen medallions will probably be converted as soon as U10 comes out, like the Mirkwood tokens were.
Question. For what exactly are you saving seals? If you don't raid, it's not to get the raid armour, since that's also gated behind raid completion. Everything else is available with marks and medallions. You literally have no reason to have seals to begin with, and you're getting 10x the amount of medallions vs converting them manually. I literally see no reason why you should be complaining.
I have a question for the OP. Is your avatar the bad guy from Superman II?
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
Civ II rules after all these years......
Moria Medallions can be traded for relics, useful for any level. Northmen medallions can be traded in for Stat scrolls. Sigil Fragments can be turned in for Seals.
Unfortunately for most of us, Northmen medallions will probably be converted as soon as U10 comes out, like the Mirkwood tokens were.
Question. For what exactly are you saving seals? If you don't raid, it's not to get the raid armour, since that's also gated behind raid completion. Everything else is available with marks and medallions. You literally have no reason to have seals to begin with, and you're getting 10x the amount of medallions vs converting them manually. I literally see no reason why you should be complaining.
Thank you for explaining this and fr capturing so well in your post what is so wrong with this thread. most of the people here are crying because they think they are going to lose something, when in all honesty they will GAIN.
Also the Moria Meds ect will probably be converted as those instances are scaled. so just hold onto them.
Also to the person who asked for a new Barter token then say's we have to many tokens now... bravo... just Bravo.. Thanks for that laugh.
What's the solution to this?
Simple. Keep the seals, but require an instance token to purchase the gear as well. A T1 instance token (plus SMs, seals, medallions, whatever) will get you purple/teal gear and a T2 token (plus SMs, seals, medallions, whatever) will get you teal/orange gear and if there's a T3, well then the same, but it would get you the orange gear.
Got the T1 gear already? Use that plus a T2 token and some seals/medallions to get the T2 gear. Same goes for T2 to T3 (if it exists).
This can work for every current instance and every instance from here on out.
I don't see why Turbine has to change things around, wipe currencies or add a new currency (that quickly becomes obsolete with the next level increase) every time a new instance cluster comes out. It's going to be mind-boggling how much "currency" we're going to have by the time we hit Mordor.
It makes sense. The idea that you could buy level 85 raid gear with currency you earned running level 75 content is silly.
Even when some people have been playing this game for several years they still don't notice that RPG means Role Playing Game not Rocket Propelled Grenade. This is a RPG game, not a Nintendo plataform.
If you want to gate that equipment, fine, find a way. But stop messing with my characters stuff.
Originally Posted by LadyDena
Why is that silly? I can work at McDonald's and use my low-paid dollars as part of the payment for my shiny new car. Thank god there are no McD's dollars, Honda's dollars and GeneralElectrics dollars.
Exactly.
That's why accepting any currency change (or deletion) for something of a lower tier is open the window for future currency resets or even deletions.
The previous currency consolidation was indeed a change, but a system change, and players had the chance to choose.
Originally Posted by spelunker
Now I'm doubly confused. You are lamenting the loss of seals as they are very hard to obtain solo. What do you need seals to buy items with currently? You can't 'solo' for the ToO armour as it requires completing a raid to barter for, everything else in game is available for just medallions, or landscape barter. How does this have any impact on a soloers 'purchasing power'? I'm genuinely not sure what I'm missing here.
You are missing what I wrote above, this is not about if the medallions are more usefull than seals.
I don't need seals to buy anything, I have a few seals because I earnt seals not medallions, it is my choice to spend them or not.
----------------------------------- note: logged off by 8th time. The forum is not responding.
The whole reason for the introduction of Marks, Medallions, and Seals was to have fewer currencies. Adding another tier would be completely counter to that point.
Anyone who doesn't see what the result of either letting everyone keep their Seals and releasing items at close to the current rates, or just inflating the Seal cost of items based on those that have stockpiled tens and hundreds of thousands of Seals is simply being obtuse.
Anyone who doesn't see what the result of either letting everyone keep their Seals and releasing items at close to the current rates, or just inflating the Seal cost of items based on those that have stockpiled tens and hundreds of thousands of Seals is simply being obtuse.
Inflating what? you can't even sell the items to other players. The "inflated prices" is an artificial argument made by Turbine.
Inflating what? you can't even sell the items to other players. The "inflated prices" is an artificial argument made by Turbine.
/not sure if serious...
Inflating the cost of the gear which you barter for with Seals... Just in case that was a real question.
And if you don't see a problem in having that gear either cost 400k Seals for each piece, or having 99% of the raiding community have the gear on day one, then I really don't know what to tell you.
Raiders are the only group of players who Seals have a direct affect on.
The warm/fuzzy feeling you get simply by having Seals in your barter wallet is not something which should influence how Turbine manages the currency that allows the community to acquire end-game gear.
I have a question for the OP. Is your avatar the bad guy from Superman II?
Who is your avatar.
Hehe... couldn't resist. And yes, that's a statement, not a question.
Anyway, when I first read this thread I was a little concerned. I have 300+ seals. Now, I have everything I would want on Jilla (85 second agers, the Hybold gear I want, etc), but I've also been away for over a year so I wasn't sure anymore what could be gotten with seals. I also have an alt that I want to gear up as I level her (hope I didn't curse myself by saying that. I've tried alts before, but I don't get them past mid level 20s before I get bored with them). I've gotten this one to 43! Maybe a champ is a good match for me. It's almost the opposite of the minstrel.
Anyway, I looked. There is nothing to buy right now with seals for a fully decced out "raiding" character. Plus, there is nothing I can't buy for my leveling alt (none of the old raid gear, jewelry, etc takes seals).
So as best I can tell, the seals aren't needed for anything right now and will probably only be needed for the new raids. Chances are, I will run those new raids many times (as will most raiders), so in time we will all get the seals we want. Heck, in a few months, we will probably be stockpiling them again.
I guess my long winded response to all this is, don't worry--nothing is really changing. Raiders will still get gear and everyone can still buy the old gear (doesn't need symbols).
I sure will have a heck of a lot of medallions though. I forget how many I have, but I think it was 80,000 or so. So I will have even more now! Of course, I will probably start spending them on my alt as I level her.
For what it's worth, I agree with the poster who said it would be nice if Turbine gave us things to spend the seals on. I too didn't purposely "horde" symbols. I just have nothing to buy with them, so they pile up. Some ideas of things to sell with symbols could be those horse-lord recipes, those old Helegrod crafting scrolls that gave you a +9% crit chance for 5 minutes, cosmetics, war-horse skins, Maybe even things like a hope buff... like people used to get in Rivendell before fighting the Balrog (but make it more for whatever raids are there... so maybe a fire mitigation buff if there is a fire boss in one of the raids, etc.)
Last edited by Jilla; Feb 06 2013 at 10:08 AM.
Vilya's Ambassador of Happiness, Goodwill, and Fuzzy Kittens' and Somesuch!
I agree it becomes a little tricky with seals earned from the level 85 Erebor 3-mans especially. However, those are something like 4 seals each.
Actually, I've only completed IP three times and Scuttledells once as I really don't like 3 mans very much. However, I have done quite a few skirmish raids, SGs, Helegrods, BG t1 and t2c as well as other things and have accrued around 1000 seals since hitting 85. I just looked at my pool of seals last night and was surprised to see that since I was thinking I had only earned around 400-500. 500 seals or 1000, neither of those numbers is exactly a small amount from running 85 content and I don't appreciate at all having them wiped out at someone's whim which is exactly what this is. If ToO armor costs are anything to go by I couldn't have purchased more than three or four pieces of armor with those seals. Considering I have five level 85s already, that's not going to go far much less get even one character geared out in armor which would require those seals.
As for getting medallions for them, I don't personally care. I've been bouncing between 12k and 15k medallions since the expansion launched with the vast majority of the medallions used for scrolls of empowerment. I don't need a ton more medallions which I have already been accruing through current content. I wouldn't expect to see the rumored conversion of 1 seal into 20 medallions to hold up either. I haven't once yet seen a generous conversion go from Bullroarer to live. The conversion rate is always nerfed badly by the time the update goes live. I'd be surprised if the conversion rate on live is anything better than 1:5 seals:medallions.
I also expect to see the Northmen medallions get turned into medallions at a 1:1 ratio which is why I'm grinding a few more Northmen medallions at the moment and will barter for stat scrolls before the update hits. 30 Northmen medallions for a stat scroll is a much better deal than 250 medallions which is what they cost at the old DG barterer in Ost Galadh.
Is a MMO socialist by nature? No, of course not. If you make it to 85 and takes me 4 weeks to get there, should you stop and wait for me? No, again of course not.
"equal start" is just an excuse. Turbine wants to create/prolong the grind, thats why they nullified our highest tier currency that can be used to barter for their new content, content that WAS supposed to be released 6 months ago. Imagine if the government goes into everyone's bank account and convert their dollars to pesos *by force* just to give new immigrants an equal start on things, picture the justifiable uproar we'll have.
The only thing worse than a company making bad decisions, is the apologists who cheer it on.
1) I don't have an issue providing all stuff currently needing seals gets converted to medallions (I suggest at the same rate you are giving us 20-1)
2) Let's stop doing this mid way through expansions. If you want to do a reset at the new level cap then do it at the start of the expansion. So next when you change the level cap to 95, change all the seals to Medallions and change over all the items to need medallions day 1.
on another note, this isn't day 1 of the expansion, it's about 6 months into it, don't penalize me for turbine not being able to get it all done at one time.
2) Let's stop doing this mid way through expansions. If you want to do a reset at the new level cap then do it at the start of the expansion. So next when you change the level cap to 95, change all the seals to Medallions and change over all the items to need medallions day 1.
This and and for this specific case, leave some amount of seals unconverted. This resolves much of the issues from my perspective as a part time raider.
Fairness has a broader range of meaning than you give it credit. For instance, it is not 'fair' that you should be given a lifetime sentence in jail for a parking violation. Nor is it 'fair' that a person who commits murder be fined $25 and let go. Closer to home, fairness means that I treat each of my daughters equally. I don't favor one over another. The same goes for Turbine. A decision to convert seals to medallions is fair in the sense that it applies to all players equally. If they gave you a better conversion rate than me that would not be fair.
I can assure you that the conversion to medallions has nothing to do with socialism (and I doubt that the Turbine Dev's are closet Marxists). Now if they were taking your seals and giving them to someone else .....
Imagine if the government goes into everyone's bank account and convert their dollars to pesos *by force* just to give new immigrants an equal start on things ...
I really like your analogy here; I just don't think it quite fits. If Turbine were devaluing your gold and silver then I might agree, but they are not. Seals are not a universal currency. They are a specialized currency for a very specific group of items (RAID armor). As the game progresses, level caps change and RAID armor changes as well. Given the specialized nature of the currency, I have to believe that Turbine has a right to regulate the value of the currency to suit their goals. In this case the goal is to get people to play the new content and offer a rewards that (hopefully) equal the challenge. I don't see anything unfair about that.
To put it another way, since the RAID armor changes it seems reasonable that the value of the currency used to obtain it would also be subject to change.
As you have said, if they were to put their hands in my pockets and convert all of my gold and silver to pesos then I would be first in line with my pitchfork knocking on Turbine's front door.
I really like your analogy here; I just don't think it quite fits. If Turbine were devaluing your gold and silver then I might agree, but they are not. Seals are not a universal currency. They are a specialized currency for a very specific group of items (RAID armor). As the game progresses, level caps change and RAID armor changes as well. Given the specialized nature of the currency, I have to believe that Turbine has a right to regulate the value of the currency to suit their goals. In this case the goal is to get people to play the new content and offer a rewards that (hopefully) equal the challenge. I don't see anything unfair about that.
The analogy does not fit at all. In-game economics are nothing like real-life economics. If Turbine wanted to go in and remove all gold over 1000 from all characters, they could certainly do so.
As you have said, if they were to put their hands in my pockets and convert all of my gold and silver to pesos then I would be first in line with my pitchfork knocking on Turbine's front door.
They're not your pockets, they're Turbine's. Obviously such a drastic step would require some pretty dire in-game circumstances because it would lead to a great deal of player ill-will.
I really don't see the issue here. They have priced the raid armour so that it is obtainable within a reasonable amount of time after release of the raid. They consolidated currency for many reasons, but not so people could hoard rewards from previous content and redeem them for the current.
That would be like me hoarding Rift boot gems long after I already had a pair, and then trying to trade them with the guy in 21st Hall for my Vile Maw boots.
20 medallions is a very fair conversion rate. Run the raid to get the raid reward.
Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
They're not your pockets, they're Turbine's. Obviously such a drastic step would require some pretty dire in-game circumstances because it would lead to a great deal of player ill-will.
Why do you waste so much time arguing semantics. Obviously nobody (or at least not the quoted poster) thinks that they have any real legal recourse for losing an in-game item.
His post was a very good explanation of why a relatively standard currency is subject to different rules than a currency that has its value changed every time a new raid is released would be. No need to nitpick over a little hyperbole.
Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
I get the reasons behind this decision, but it would have been better to do this at the beginning of the rohan expansion or at least with the instance cluster part one. Because now all sigils from the new instances and deeds are lost mid season. This leaves a bad taste behind. Bad timing again like the warden agility changes midseason.
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