Thread: The raiding community

Originally Posted by Evelwyn

He seemed! Then we are in agreement that your remark was speculative.

My only character is level 7. I have just started. FTP. Because the remarks don’t apply to me doesn’t mean that I cannot respond to them, nor does my responding to your remarks imply that “I am one of those”.

So you're just going to argue about semantics, and actually bring nothing substantive to talk about? Have fun, then.

Originally Posted by Loreineth

So you're just going to argue about semantics, and actually bring nothing substantive to talk about? Have fun, then.

I am very confused by your post. Is not semantics the essence of communication? Is it not important to accurately portray what one says and do the same for what others say? Oh well, I guess you are ending the discussion, so there is not much more to be said.

Originally Posted by Lothirieth

You know... the same thing could be said about soloers, who have whinged and complained to get the game changed to suit them. It can go both ways. But I have a better idea: how about we respect all playstyles and wish that different people can find something in lotro that suits them. Wishing for a segment of the population to be shown the door is never a good thing. It's downright rude and selfish.

And the post you think is so wonderful? I find it rude and wrong and generalising. The raiders I know kept on at challenges until they beat them even though they were completely geared up. They went back again and again to get other people certain titles or deeds. They also were extremely serious about not exploiting, anywhere in the game. Doing so would get you kicked from the group. Good, honest behaviour is expected and required. Really, a lot of you have some biased, hateful and simply wrong opinions about raiders.

Couple things:

First of all, the types of raiders I refer to has no respect for any player who plays any other type of playstyle other than their own. They think that they should have a certain level of gear that is both better than anything else out there and only is gotten from what they do (which is essentially the very hardest content only doable with 12 other people), which basically makes it little more than a status symbol. Which is something they want, so they can show off to others and use it as a status check for inspects and such. These people actively seek to take away paths to the best gear in the game from other players, and tend to care way too much as to how and where someone gets something (generally by being butthurt that some other player got a lucky gold drop that they still haven't gotten). Their complaints basically amount to saying: "I don't like the way things are going because a lot of people can now get what I have, and I won't feel special anymore!". Wishing for these types of selfish, arrogant players (the ones who seek to elevate their sense of self-worth at the cost of opportunities for other players) to be shown the door is always a good thing, no matter the circumstance. They don't contribute anything positive to the community or to the people in it, and don't help either the community or the experience of belonging to said community as a whole progress in any way. In fact, they never should have been let into the building in the first place, but the nature of the MMO industry is such that they had to be tolerated and at times catered to in it's infancy. We are better than that now, and need to show it by doing away with that once necessary evil that is no longer necessary.

Second of all, don't presume to speak for the raiding community as a whole or try to wave away people's negative opinions of raiders as figments of their imagination. Because as a raider myself, I can tell you that those negative opinions people have of raiders exist for a very vaild reason. Is it unfortunate that they exist? Of course. Does that mean that all raiders are that way? Of course not. But those bad apples exist, and they tend to have a very loud voice. In fact, look back through this thread and you'll see quite a few examples (like, say, the OP). Maybe your raiding alliance doesn't have these types of people in it, and if so, you should be commended for actively seeking to keep these types of players out of your alliance, as they bring nothing but problems and trouble. But they exist elsewhere, and for my part I can say that I've seen more raiders that bring shame to the raiding community than ones that bring credit to it through their actions and attitudes.

And lastly, no, it doesn't go both ways. Soloers don't want things to be taken completely away from raiders and be given only to soloers. They generally only want an alternate option and path to working towards the types of things raiders can get (or something analogous to it). Raiders do want to take things completely away from soloers and give them no path to work towards it, since in their minds those players don't deserve it. One group of people wants to expand paths and options towards rewards and character progression for all, without depriving another group of thier path and option. The other group wants to reduce those paths and options and actively seeks to deprive opportunity and progression for every other type of player except for themselves and those like them.

Opening up opportunity vs. closing it off. The two are not similar; in fact, they're diametric opposites.

Originally Posted by Evelwyn

I am very confused by your post. Is not semantics the essence of communication? Is it not important to accurately portray what one says and do the same for what others say? Oh well, I guess you are ending the discussion, so there is not much more to be said.

Semantics can be defined as the interpretation of the meaning of words. (among other things) I don’t know about “essence”. I would not argue against such an interpretation though.

The importance of accurately portraying one’s/another’s words comes into play when seeking truth or when having an honest debate/discussion. It does not necessarily have much function in a forum such as this; although it can, depending upon the participants.

Edit: by the way; welcome to LOTRO and to the forums.

The loot system is pretty fail for a mmorpg IN MY OPINION.

Generally in an MMO, you acquire tiers of gear.
1. Quest gear.
2. Reputation barter gear.
3. Crafted gear.
Two and Three can go either way.
4. Instance gear
5. Heroic instance gear
6. Raid gear

Generally this is how its done. Yes, turbine has strayed from this path a bit. However, I BELIEVE the solution to all of the Angst players are feeling about most of the gear, is that the scroll cases/rare world drops are acquirable from raiding and world loot.
I for one enjoy playing with a completely geared out character. Regardless what I play. That is just my opinion. I for one do not enjoy standing around killing thousands of mobs to get the best pocket item, helmet, and bracelet in the game.

With my experience in LotRO, the best loot system was that of the Angmar days. Gear was good from crafting. Gear was good from all the 6 mans. Gear was good from all the raids.
BUT in all of the Kinships I've raided with, Having the best gear drop in the raid was NEVER the reason we raided. We did it for the titles such as Challenger of Saruman, Challenger of Gortheron, Bane of the Lieutenant. Etc. I remember the day we got the doormat from my kinship BG weekly raid. Things like this are what excites people. My current kinship STILL is raiding OT to get items like these.

Gear is dandy, but what hardcore raiders, real hardcore raiders, care about is the feeling of: Wow, we spent 100 hours figuring out that boss, now we can say we got server first on the hardest fight in the game. Things like that are what stick with raiders and keep them around.
The majority of people complaining about noobs having the same gear as them, really are not hardcore raiders. Even with turbines current loot system, I can still distinguish my stats and skills from that of most everyone I group with.

Regardless of what the loot system is in the game, hardcore raiders, who spend days figuring out the hardest fights will always have better gear than the rest of the rabble.

The general populace that is complaining about there not being enough loot from t2's really aren't this games(or any mmo's) hardcore raiding community.

Raiding is about completion and teamwork. Not having an Eighteen inch Epeen.


In saying this, I also feel that turbine REALLY should make the current beta raids much more difficult. I can name 4 kinships off the back of my hand, and one pug group that have already completed T2c for the Battle of Erebor in beta. Raids being as easy as this is what will push away the raiding community.

My advice. Make 1 raid that is doable by all. One doable by most non casual, semi-hardcore, and hardcore player. And one of such difficulty that only few kinships can do them in the hardest difficulty.
Don't give us another draigoch and orthanc. Draigoch being the easiest raid I have ever done. Orthanc being cleared by about 20 kinships worldwide on level.
Thats too much of a split in difficulty to hold a raiding community.


My two cents.

Originally Posted by RKL

Semantics can be defined as the interpretation of the meaning of words. (among other things) I don’t know about “essence”. I would not argue against such an interpretation though.

The importance of accurately portraying one’s/another’s words comes into play when seeking truth or when having an honest debate/discussion. It does not necessarily have much function in a forum such as this; although it can, depending upon the participants.

Edit: by the way; welcome to LOTRO and to the forums.

I think I see your point. You make it sound like there might not be much reason to be posting on this website. I hope that does not turn out to be the case.

Thanks for the welcome.

Originally Posted by Specterace

Wishing for these types of selfish, arrogant players (the ones who seek to elevate their sense of self-worth at the cost of opportunities for other players) to be shown the door is always a good thing, no matter the circumstance.

I respectfully and completely disagree. Though, you could at least extend this to some of the most vocal and rude casuals/soloers. Whilst this is a game, it has real people populating it. As long long as people aren't being outright insulting or harassing, etc, you have to learn to put up with them just as you do in real life. You can't just ban people because you don't like or approve of them. Well.. you can, as is done here but in my opinion that's pretty darned wrong and not a good way to run things.

Second of all, don't presume to speak for the raiding community as a whole

I do not. Do not put words in my mouth.

or try to wave away people's negative opinions of raiders as figments of their imagination. Because as a raider myself, I can tell you that those negative opinions people have of raiders exist for a very vaild reason. Is it unfortunate that they exist? Of course. Does that mean that all raiders are that way? Of course not. But those bad apples exist, and they tend to have a very loud voice.

Of course those people exist. I never claimed otherwise. I still assert they are the minority. Yet, arguments about the community or how the future of raiding should go are routinely and entirely based on that vocal minority. Quite frankly I'm getting sick of my friends and I being lumped in with them and continuously assumed to be jerks just because we take part in a certain activity. There are bad apples in the soloer/casual camp, yet that "side" isn't routinely assumed to be a bunch of horrible people like raiders are.

Perhaps it's becoming apparently that generalising is one of my big pet peeves no matter what the topic. ^^

But they exist elsewhere, and for my part I can say that I've seen more raiders that bring shame to the raiding community than ones that bring credit to it through their actions and attitudes.

I think that's because most raiders keep to themselves and their kins/alliances and enjoy the game. I think I'm the only person in my alliance who posts here regularly. I know others read. Sometimes I think I should stop visiting these forums entirely as the raiders vs. soloers thing is so tired, stupid and old.. but at the same time I don't want Turbine thinking that only the only perspective that matters is the casual side.

And lastly, no, it doesn't go both ways. Soloers don't want things to be taken completely away from raiders and be given only to soloers.

Haha, oh yes it does. I suppose you've missed casuals stating that raids should be done away with in general as they're a drain on resources. That money shouldn't be put towards a minority (same for PvMP). I guess you missed the uninhibited glee that was displayed when a dev made a statement that was something like.. Turbine not focusing on raids so much, raiders will just have to wait (ugh, can't find the quote!) Many people were downright happy that raiders were now seemingly being pushed aside.

Anyway, that's it for me in this thread. We'll just be arguing in circles I think.

Originally Posted by Jarvisdoom

Regardless of what the loot system is in the game, hardcore raiders, who spend days figuring out the hardest fights will always have better gear than the rest of the rabble.

Then why is there so much concern over where and how the 'rabble' get their gear?

I'm not really certain why we, to include myself, sometimes get caught up in defining for others the "whole who deserves what loot" fight. I've come to the conclusion, for myself, that in the end it really doesn't matter who has or doesn't have what and when they "deserve" it. It also doesn't matter how they earned it and it is not for us to decide the means by which these 1s and 0s are obtained.

The noob that can't function in a group, the middle of the ground player, or the 3P33N stroking elitist all will find something shiny in their hands - as will the 20 other categories of players out there. It doesn't matter b/c the "phat loot" will be obsolete within a year or sooner depending where we are in the rotation of content release.

It does matter how we individually choose to conduct ourselves in the situation. I think it's best to simply congratulate the person that found/won a great item and ignore the temptation to engage in conflict. You might feel the person is a noob and doesn't deserve it/didn't earn it. You might think the elitist doesn't deserve it b/c he already has 3 and you are still waiting to get it. You might bang your head against the wall as you watch an average player that will never raid again walk away with a shiny you've been trying to get for 3 months. It isn't going to do you any good to start fighting nor is it productive to let these things eat you up.

Again I'm simply expressing a personal preference and opinion; in the end we all have to make an individual choice.

Originally Posted by JeauxLOTR

Then why is there so much concern over where and how the 'rabble' get their gear?

In defense of the person you replied to, I think his point was that he wasn't part of that debate, *because* of the part you quoted; i.e. he doesn't care what others get or how. He's going his way, and others can go theirs. He's not going to try to limit others simply because they don't play the game his way.

Edit: He's saying "I'll be ahead of you anyway, because of how I play, not because I'm going to try to restrict others from getting gear," which is perfectly ok.

Originally Posted by Evelwyn

I think I see your point. You make it sound like there might not be much reason to be posting on this website. I hope that does not turn out to be the case.

Thanks for the welcome.

Sorry if I made it sound that way. You will find many people who value honest communication here. For all I know, it could be the vast majority. Also, some basically honest people, if they feel ego threatened, can lose it for a while and be perfectly fine later.

Originally Posted by Loreineth

In defense of the person you replied to, I think his point was that he wasn't part of that debate, *because* of the part you quoted; i.e. he doesn't care what others get or how. He's going his way, and others can go theirs. He's not going to try to limit others simply because they don't play the game his way.

Edit: He's saying "I'll be ahead of you anyway, because of how I play, not because I'm going to try to restrict others from getting gear," which is perfectly ok.

Yep, you got what I meant.

Thanks

My 2 cents: The design of most ALL mmorpg's has been that you level up, hit endgame and raid. You don't have to level to craft, and soloers have always been a small percentage, hence Mmo. As stated before, gear rewards have always been based on difficulty and there is no difficulty involved soloing unless doing Group content, which defeats the purpose of why it was designed. Do I think raiders deserve better gear rewards? Yes, they put the time and a LOT of money in (consumables, scrolls, etc..) and the lack of any intelligent Turbine decisions towards that has made sure myself and a slew of other raiders look to other games.

Originally Posted by Kryptes

the lack of any intelligent Turbine decisions towards that has made sure myself and a slew of other raiders look to other games.

i agree, i cant understand why they do not want to give us any incentive to do stuff or put any effort into instances, i mean what MMO ships with no instances?........we all should have known, oh well fool me once...........

Originally Posted by Kryptes

Do I think raiders deserve better gear rewards? Yes, they put the time and a LOT of money in (consumables, scrolls, etc..) and the lack of any intelligent Turbine decisions towards that has made sure myself and a slew of other raiders look to other games.

With that kind of attitude, the game will be better off if you and your kind *do* move on. Rift has exactly what you're looking for. Only raiders can get the best gear. No one else is even close w/o raiding.

1st age weapons will be gated behind raids in U10.

They will drop from the new raid instances, with a higher chance on T2.
In addition, they can be battered for at the skirmish camp, but only by players that have unlocked T1 raiding deeds.
They are battered for seals on Bullroarer but I guess that could change before going live.

It's more or less the same as ToO with the extra chance for the unlucky players to get FAs through multiple raids by acquiring seals.

3 months late but LOTRO is back on track

I don't have a problem with soloers and crafters getting the best (or equivalent) gear, but as a fan of instances I'm not happy with the design of the last instance- and raid-clusters. There is just nothing to explore or discover! There are no alternate paths, secret rooms, labyrinths, optional encounters, amazing places to find, etc. Since Angmar, there were only rail instances added to the game.

And in case of the new Erebor-raids, you really can't say, that they correspond to a wing in the Orthanc. All three raids consist of one single encounter and only the third raid has a boss battle. In opposition to the title you don't even flee in the first raid. You just stand there and fight incoming enemies for ten minutes. This may be difficult, but it's an extremely simple design, which will bore pretty fast. There is nothing to discover, nothing to explore, just running on your rail or standing on the same place.

The same can be said for all 6men-instances since Mirkwood. You just run on a rail. It's especially disappointing in the Dale instance, where you aren't even allowed to walk in side alleys that aren't blockaded by anything.

I'm afraid, that existing great instances like Carn Dum or Urugath will loose their charm with one of the following updates, too, when developers try to make them more "casual friendly" (no exploration; no discovery; just one way, so people won't be confused). Even after Fornost showing, that splitting an instance up in different rail levels won't make them more popular but only more boring (that nobody runs these instances (or Annuminas) has little to do with the loot).

Dear developers, please please please reconsider the design of your instances. You don't have to make all instances open and complex, but one Carn Dum-like instance in a while would be awesome.

Originally Posted by RKL

Sorry if I made it sound that way. You will find many people who value honest communication here. For all I know, it could be the vast majority. Also, some basically honest people, if they feel ego threatened, can lose it for a while and be perfectly fine later.

... ...

Originally Posted by Loreineth

With that kind of attitude, the game will be better off if you and your kind *do* move on. Rift has exactly what you're looking for. Only raiders can get the best gear. No one else is even close w/o raiding.

Me and "my kind" as you put it, are the reason for games like this. You want a non-raid mmorpg, play second life.
A good compromise would be same stat armour/weapons, with different skins as raid reward.

Originally Posted by Kryptes

M=
A good compromise would be same stat armour/weapons, with different skins as raid reward.

That would actually be fine. You can have your unique look or sets for raiding. I just want to advance my character over time, as you want to. I just don't care to do it the same way you do. I've spent years doing raids, and I've grown bored of them.

'your kind' was a reference to people who feel they must be 'special' by keeping others from having what they themselves have access to. I don't begrudge you access to good gear in raid chests. I'm not trying to prevent you equal access to stats on gear. The people I referred to do want to keep others from equal access purely because they don't play the game in a certain way.

You yourself in the post I replied to said raiders 'deserve' better rewards than others, so I responded as I did. Now you're willing to compromise. I raided for 10+ years. Raiders don't 'deserve' better stats that others can't get. Deeds of doing the raids themselves, and/or titles/cosmetic things from same is fine; i.e. something that clearly says you defeated X or Y raid(s). Better stats are not.

I didn't say "better gear" I said better gear rewards...a unique skin would fit that, like the moors LIs. I never said we deserved better stats or raid-only acquirable setups, but dear god, give us something worth the difficulty and time or there's no reason to run any raid more then once.

Originally Posted by Loreineth

With that kind of attitude, the game will be better off if you and your kind *do* move on. Rift has exactly what you're looking for. Only raiders can get the best gear. No one else is even close w/o raiding.

Ow dear i knew it would come to this : D

Sorry buddy , but it's you who needs to look for another game since U10 brings better raid-gated gear/weapons
and most likely jewels as well. ( those haven't been added yet so no promises )

As you said , while advertising your 10-year raiding experience(several times) and the time you don't have now ,
you won't be able to get that gear yourself : (

I am sorry mate , i understand it makes you sad that we won't all be gear clones anymore by rebuilding happy Hytbold.
I really hope you manage to shallow the grief , since this is a wonderful and unique game and it would be a shame
if you quited.
Don't allow the fact that someone else has better gear than you bring you down on your knees.

Balance is restored and the formula that kept this game going all these years will be complete in only a few days , by restoring rewarding group content , the thing/factor that wins in every MMO.

But by all means , keep going , perhaps Turbine will bring another hytbold in the next expansion if you try long enough.

<3

Originally Posted by Loreineth

With that kind of attitude, the game will be better off if you and your kind *do* move on. Rift has exactly what you're looking for. Only raiders can get the best gear. No one else is even close w/o raiding.

Originally Posted by BotLike

Ow dear i knew it would come to this : D

Sorry buddy , but it's you who needs to look for another game since U10 brings better raid-gated gear/weapons
and most likely jewels as well. ( those haven't been added yet so no promises )

As you said , while advertising your 10-year raiding experience(several times) and the time you don't have now ,
you won't be able to get that gear yourself : (

I am sorry mate , i understand it makes you sad that we won't all be gear clones anymore by rebuilding happy Hytbold.
I really hope you manage to shallow the grief , since this is a wonderful and unique game and it would be a shame
if you quited.
Don't allow the fact that someone else has better gear than you bring you down on your knees.

Balance is restored and the formula that kept this game going all these years will be complete in only a few days , by restoring rewarding group content , the thing/factor that wins in every MMO.

But by all means , keep going , perhaps Turbine will bring another hytbold in the next expansion if you try long enough.

<3

A plague on both your houses. You both undermine your positions by resorting to cheap attacks on the other side.

Much better if you could just agree to disagree. Neither side of this argument is "right". I applaud Turbine's attempts to introduce balance, or rather to re-introduce the balance of the long-lamented comparable incomparables.

There are times when I think the only solution to this endless wrangling is to remove the "inspect" function from the game. Then no-one would be able to get bent out of shape over what other folk have, and how they got it.

Most of the raiders I've talked to, their issue is not being butt hurt about being able to epeen exclusive gear. It's concern over the future of raiding in this game.

Most raiders choose to tackle the most difficult content for the feeling of teamwork, skill and strategy overcoming large obstacles. The first time. After you've done it a few of times and it gets to be old hat, why else would you keep going back except for gear?

And if that gear is just as easily attainable by running small group stuff that requires far less time, organization and effort, guess what the majority of people are going to do? It's natural that most people will gravitate to the easiest method of reaching their goals. That's why when an instance cluster is released, the one that's easiest to beat/exploit is run over and over while the hardest and most time consuming are largely ignored. How many people were doing BG challenge when symbols were dropping from Durchest T1?

Without incentive, fewer people will want to run challenge content. The less traction those encounters get, the less Turbine feels compelled to release new challenge content. The less challenge content, the more raiders gravitate away from the game. This is already happening.

Personally, I don't care if everyone is running around with a 1st age. 3% extra dps isn't going to make you a good player. I also don't care if ultra rare recipes have a .5% drop rate from landscape mobs.

I just think it makes sense to offer rewards for beating the more difficult content. Put the gold recipes on a reasonable drop rate from T2 challenge chests and I bet a lot of these complaints go away.

Can I ask one quick question? other then for show what do soloers even "need" these gold drops for?

I get that raiders don't "need" them either, you can still do raids without them, but like I have said before, having better gear allows raiders to do some of the harder content of the game without as much stress. But I don't get what soloers need these for. Having higher agility doesn't make your hunter a better cook, or makes it a lot easier to do Solo Skrims (Im sorry but these are a joke, If I can solo a 3-man on my Loremaster, im sure almost anyone can do a solo with ease). My big point is this, the people that would be most benefited by this gear is raiders because higher stats make our lives easier, as higher audacity makes PVPers lives easier. However in solo play more stats, really is just an E-peen. I don't care if anyone can get it, I just care that the only way to get it is through dumb luck.

Originally Posted by Vulcan583

Can I ask one quick question? other then for show what do soloers even "need" these gold drops for?

I get that raiders don't "need" them either, you can still do raids without them, but like I have said before, having better gear allows raiders to do some of the harder content of the game without as much stress. But I don't get what soloers need these for. Having higher agility doesn't make your hunter a better cook, or makes it a lot easier to do Solo Skrims (Im sorry but these are a joke, If I can solo a 3-man on my Loremaster, im sure almost anyone can do a solo with ease). My big point is this, the people that would be most benefited by this gear is raiders because higher stats make our lives easier, as higher audacity makes PVPers lives easier. However in solo play more stats, really is just an E-peen. I don't care if anyone can get it, I just care that the only way to get it is through dumb luck.

As far as need goes; I can’t think of anything other than having equal equipment ability to spar.

Originally Posted by RKL

As far as need goes; I can’t think of anything other than having equal equipment ability to spar.

So then why is the only to get this equipment(which in my opinion is meant for raiding) is through soloing? I don't even see multiple ways to get gear here, I see soloing crafting instances ATM and nothing else.

From what I can currently gather via dev-speak, there will be no direct loot benefit to completing challenges other than basically getting a double dip in the T2 loot table via the challenge chest.

The only other benefit (over time) to completing challenges that I know of is the lower Seal cost of First Ages at the skrim camp. Not sure if this is unlocked by one raid (Erebor) or all 3.

Haven't heard any word on a hidden title or anything.

So those things - and the sense of accomplishment at an increased difficulty appear to be the sole reasons/incentive to complete challenges. I think it's fair to say that the reward disparity between the 3 levels of difficulty has further shrunk from the previous instance cluster. I believe the one exception being there will be T1 and T2 armor (correct me if I'm wrong).

What also remains to be seen is the difference in the T1 and T2 loot tables. I would actually be fine if they offered the same loot, albeit at properly adjusted rates per tier. I am a bit dismayed by the idea that challenge chests may not hold anything unique to them over the T2 chest. That was always kind of exciting... and sometimes even satisfying.