Thread: Official Discussion: A letter from Kate Paiz 2013

Would like to add my two cents worth

Focusing specifically on the player council, and having played Eve for a number of years, I wish to throw a cautionary tale out there to anyone thinking that they are going to help change the (game)world...
It's not going to happen. Fact

The concept of a player council in any type of MMO game is intriguing - it is a game..a collection of pixels that makes a company money and is a way you spend your free time. This game does not have any relevance to anything else in your life - except to share quality time doing something with like-minded people that enjoy a good story (that's the only reason I play). When it comes to removing the bugs out of the game or determining direction of the game surely those facts are easily found in the posts on the forums. What difference would a person standing in front of the relevant producer telling him/her going to make? Surely they will still ignore the fact. Unproductive time is what I call it.

To those that want to be on the council
Regardless of the fantastic and game changing ideas that you come up with, you must keep in mind that Turbine is a business governed by financial constraints and shareholders. The producers are next in line with you and your ideas given priority No.5. Nothing will change that. I would be surprised if you influenced anything.
If you are on the council - you will get to know inside information, but if you speak one word of what you "know" you could go to prison or worse ... banned from the game if you tell anyone about that.

A suggestion - go on youtube and entertain yourself with some CCP recorded CSM (their player council name) presentations at their annual conference. Then have a look and judge for yourself exactly how much useful input (not just lip service) the CSM gave to Eve - then see how this player council can be any different

/rant over

Originally Posted by JohnDoe1000

To those that want to be on the council...

but if you speak one word of what you "know" you could go to prison or worse ... banned from the game if you tell anyone about that.

I like your post, JD. It is truth in a fantastical world. The council, even as idealistically broad-range representative as Turbine is planning it, will have an infinitely small effect on game production and development. As others have posted and pointed out, it's basically a panacea being thrown at the forumites, or a possible way for future finger-pointing on behalf of the devs-- "It's what you told us you wanted (through the council)."

I do have to question this, though: being banned from the game is worse than being sent to prison? I somehow don't really see that.

Originally Posted by Abiyah

I do have to question this, though: being banned from the game is worse than being sent to prison? I somehow don't really see that.

I think he meant that prison would not be as bad as being banned from the game because in prison you could still play Lotro.

I think it would all be worth it:
Apply and get on the council; get flown to iceland; go on CNN and tell all; then go to prison.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before

but Helms deep didn't have orcs. Saruman made Uruk-hai, Mordor had orcs.
There were no orcs in Saruman his army.

So if turbine is populating helms deep with both orcs and uruk-hai they are making a huge mistake from lore perspective

Originally Posted by Cindir

I think he meant that prison would not be as bad as being banned from the game because in prison you could still play Lotro.

I think it would all be worth it:
Apply and get on the council; get flown to iceland; go on CNN and tell all; then go to prison.

You might be able to play LotRO in prison, for an hour a day. But speaking as someone who's been in one, no, you don't get to play computer games.

I like your scenario, though : fly to a wasteland, talk to a talking head, and lose all your civil rights and freedoms. A possible prize on "Wheel of Fortune"!

As I posted before, those who most want to be on the council are by definition the least suited to be on the council. They want to be on the council simply because they want to be on the council and receive all the imagined accolades that go with it.

I am fairly new to LOTRO but what I seen so far has been very good. Although I don't know much about the gaming world I am fairly verse in RL (real life) system process and dynamics to say that what I seen has been great. LOTRO has done alot of little things that people might easily not notice, but cummatively, all those adds up to add to a smooth game process...although, there are a few things I would add or change from a system perspective.

A players council or group is always a good idea but the success will depend on mix and procedure (procedure entails communication and how your feedback loop will work). A mix of players for example like all veterans, might seem like a good idea but might lack new perspective. You might also take into consideration the RL expertise of your mix as industry specific background might bring different point of view.

Housing...never really got into it as I find too hard for newbs to enjoy. There is a big world out there to still learn....meaning, housing is not newb friendly? And by the law of large number, I am probably not the only one.

Just my input.

Originally Posted by maxjenius

As I posted before, those who most want to be on the council are by definition the least suited to be on the council. They want to be on the council simply because they want to be on the council and receive all the imagined accolades that go with it.

Why does the song, "From every kind of man obedience I expect" from the Mikado come to mind?

Originally Posted by Abiyah

I like your post, JD. It is truth in a fantastical world. The council, even as idealistically broad-range representative as Turbine is planning it, will have an infinitely small effect on game production and development. As others have posted and pointed out, it's basically a panacea being thrown at the forumites, or a possible way for future finger-pointing on behalf of the devs-- "It's what you told us you wanted (through the council)."

I do have to question this, though: being banned from the game is worse than being sent to prison? I somehow don't really see that.

This is how i see it. It takes a lot less effort to answer questions put by players on this forum than to manage and deal with a player council. It would be like herding cats, so what is the point? A players council isnt going to come up with anything different than whats been posted here for years. Again, what is the point? It has also been stated that it isnt off the table yet as to whether or not turbine might fly the council out and put them up in a hotel, etc, nothing has been decided. But i must ask the question: that costs money. Why is it they will pay the tab for that, but wont spend in other places that i think most here would prefer they would do, like fixing these forums. Again, what is the point? None of this makes sense.

I cant see any other motive behind the thought except for what you have elluded to here, a pure PR move.

Originally Posted by Feraxks

Why does the song, "From every kind of man obedience I expect" from the Mikado come to mind?

I think of Zaphod Beeblebrox. I've never heard The Mikado other than the snippets in Topsy-turvy.

The player council will be an interesting exercise.

I look forward to our new CTQ Six Sigma overlords.

Originally Posted by hallasan

The player council will be an interesting exercise.

I look forward to our new CTQ Six Sigma overlords.

Welp, i am not the type to be overlorded upon. Guess thats gonna pretty much put me at the top of the hit list.

Originally Posted by OnyxSoulbane

Welp, i am not the type to be overlorded upon. Guess thats gonna pretty much put me at the top of the hit list.

Nah, no such thing as a hit list, just reclassified as part of a decelerating cash contribution market segment enabling a recalibration and realignment of development dollars focused upon high yield and low opportunity conversion cost player profiles.

Adjustment of skills is the biggest change that I see the EP was talking about. I'm not entirely sure about this reduction of skills idea. Sure I'm a RK and I have too many skills over flowing, but I use mostly all and I don't want to see my skills that I worked hard for vanish. As long as its not a HUGE change I believe I'll be fine with it. Also the housing... Meh not really a big deal to me... Might be for some others thought. The updates sound cool and I'm glad to see they are coming out soon.

My question is will there be a level cap increase? And how much of an increase will it be? Any ideas?

Overall I'm glad turbine is working hard to perfect the game. No one can should get mad when they are working hard to make LOTRO the most enjoyable game it can be.

Originally Posted by Nallaglor

In my opinion there should't be too much changes on the skills, because I think the high number of skills we have in LOTRO make the game better than most other MMORPGs. I've played many games where you have very less skills and this is boring...
Moreover you should not worry about the number of skills... You did a nice job by explaining all the skills and the gameplay ingame. LOTRO has one of the best intro/tutorials I've seen and many tooltips which help understanding...
What could be done is to combine some skills, e.g. the hunters skills to search for mobs. I think they should be combined to one skill which effects all kinds of mobs.
But please don't try to make the gameplay less and less challenging just to satisfy players who can't play their class (to exaggerate it a bit^^)

Agree. We'll see what exactly this pruning is about.

As for Rohan, needless to say, I'll be waiting impatiently!

I'm also curious about the Council, I hope it will bring us good results and not just polemic as I often see in this forum, so I really hope you'll find a wise way to find the best suited players around.
Maybe they'll serve to evaluate good proposals such as the kinship revamp one.

Thanks and, above all, good luck, this community seems to be one of the most demanding in the MMORPG world.

Originally Posted by Sapience

You'd be surprised how much of this is in the planning documents.

I wouldn't expect any less.

Quick Question: Can we expect to have some kind of European representation on this player council? Sometimes we do feel a little left out and it would probably be a good move. Don't know how communication would happen when we have to put Timezones and real traveling distance into account, but it would still be a move of good will on Turbine's part. :-)

Originally Posted by Galahadur

I wouldn't expect any less.

Quick Question: Can we expect to have some kind of European representation on this player council?

Yep EU is included.

Originally Posted by Sapience

Once everything is in place and we have approval from all the right people, we'll make it very clear where, when and how to apply and participate. Unless something crops up that makes it impossible, the intent is to include ALL players, whether NA or EU, or any other supported territory.

Originally Posted by hallasan

Nah, no such thing as a hit list, just reclassified as part of a decelerating cash contribution market segment enabling a recalibration and realignment of development dollars focused upon high yield and low opportunity conversion cost player profiles.

If we were playing BS Business Buzzword Bingo, I'd have just won. Good show.

I appreciate the effort to be more "inclusive" on feedback via a Player Council, but what's different (in substance) from what you have now? If the Council is under an NDA, I don't understand why Palantir wouldn't serve the same purpose (without any particular PR benefits ). If it's not under an NDA and the Council is public, they won't be any more informed than we are now, and their benefit will be reduced.

As for process, I have a few suggestions:

• Don't even consider allowing player "voting" for a Council... that way lies certain disaster. Pick them strictly by your own criteria from the pool of people who ask to be considered.
• Very deliberately pick some people who are routinely critical without being antagonistic/uncivil.
• Avoid hardcore bias (which won't be easy since casual players tend to be time-constrained, making it likely that fewer will even sign up for a Council).
• Keep the terms short - maybe 6 months. That will help keep things fresh and limit turnover, particularly if the Council is made public... I suspect it won't be a stress-free position .
• Err on the side of "too small" instead of "too large"... large committees / focus groups just don't work as well in my experience. I'd think 10 or 12 people would be enough, and if some particular class or subgroup isn't represented this time, try to make sure they are for the next group (in 6 months).

If you want structured feedback from a larger group, I'll propose the "Producer for a Day" suggestion again:

1. Send players a Survey (or do a login survey) where they have 100 "points" to spend and 30-50 different potential features to spend them on.
2. Each feature is given a "cost" of 1-100 points, depending on size and complexity. They can choose lots of tiny features, a few medium-large ones, or 1 huge one.
3. Offer people a small reward (50-100 TP?) for completion to help increase participation rates.
4. Slice and dice the data at your leisure, and have a Producer write a Letter about some of the key insights from the survey later.

Khafar

Originally Posted by Khafar

I appreciate the effort to be more "inclusive" on feedback via a Player Council, but what about that is different in substance from what you have now?...

As for process, I have a few suggestions:
...a whole bunch of good ideas and input...

Khafar

To these excellent ideas Khafar presents I'd add this: if council term is limited (and I really hope it is), have a new set come in at the halfway or 2/3 mark of the term so as to limit time for new members getting caught up with where the council is. New and fresh ideas from new members is key, but continuity is a good thing, too.

Originally Posted by Khafar

I appreciate the effort to be more "inclusive" on feedback via a Player Council, but what's different (in substance) from what you have now? If the Council is under an NDA, I don't understand why Palantir wouldn't serve the same purpose (without any particular PR benefits ). If it's not under an NDA and the Council is public, they won't be any more informed than we are now, and their benefit will be reduced.

As for process, I have a few suggestions:

• Don't even consider allowing player "voting" for a Council... that way lies certain disaster. Pick them strictly by your own criteria from the pool of people who ask to be considered.
• Very deliberately pick some people who are routinely critical without being antagonistic/uncivil.
• Avoid hardcore bias (which won't be easy since casual players tend to be time-constrained, making it likely that fewer will even sign up for a Council).
• Keep the terms short - maybe 6 months. That will help keep things fresh and limit turnover, particularly if the Council is made public... I suspect it won't be a stress-free position .
• Err on the side of "too small" instead of "too large"... large committees / focus groups just don't work as well in my experience. I'd think 10 or 12 people would be enough, and if some particular class or subgroup isn't represented this time, try to make sure they are for the next group (in 6 months).

If you want structured feedback from a larger group, I'll propose the "Producer for a Day" suggestion again:

1. Send players a Survey (or do a login survey) where they have 100 "points" to spend and 30-50 different potential features to spend them on.
2. Each feature is given a "cost" of 1-100 points, depending on size and complexity. They can choose lots of tiny features, a few medium-large ones, or 1 huge one.
3. Offer people a small reward (50-100 TP?) for completion to help increase participation rates.
4. Slice and dice the data at your leisure, and have a Producer write a Letter about some of the key insights from the survey later.

Khafar

This way lies many good ideas.
There's certainly a lot of food for thought, here.

Originally Posted by Khafar

I appreciate the effort to be more "inclusive" on feedback via a Player Council, but what's different (in substance) from what you have now? If the Council is under an NDA, I don't understand why Palantir wouldn't serve the same purpose

Palantir, from my understanding, is more about squishing bugs and refining game play. The Player Council seems more like an advisory board on design choices/features. Two different animals.

Whatever you do with housing please make sure it doesnt create lag in the real world by keeping it in the housing instances. Ive seen too many mmos brought to a halt when crossing server lines. Instances will then allow people to get very creative without worrying about lag.

While the player council seems fine as long as it is only something to bounce ideas off, I hope Turbine doesnt give up on the idea of sending out ocassional surveys to random players so that opinions can be widespread.
I agree as others have said with the sentiment that the membership to the council should be flushed periodically to prevent members getting an overwhelming sense of entitlement.

Land Areas: I'm excited about the new zones coming, Wildermore and western Rohan. Very intrigued to hear of "thousands" of orcs somehow being visible, if not interacted with. I wonder if the new tech they were working on for this is being used? Whatever happens, I hope the battle of Helm's Deep is something more than just the cheesy "three orcs attacking at a time" representation that I've long expected.

Housing: I hope it's a complete overhaul and removal of the hook system, toward as much a free form placement system as is possible with the engine. Housing could be so much more than it is, both in terms of player enjoyment and Turbine revenue. If it's just "more" of the same system we have now, it will be a waste of time and effort. People won't spend money on the exact same system, it has to be new.

Player Councils: Like someone else suggested, I suspect this is little more than a well-intended PR move, to make a social connection with the playerbase and make them feel more involved. Yes, the suggestions of this "council" will no doubt be considered, but no more so than what has been posted on the Suggestion forums all these years. Other than that, there's no real use for it. Having a "council" doesn't mean that someone can speak any more succinctly or knowledgably than the many eloquent posts in the Suggestion forum over the years.

I suggest that the members be changed at regular intervals, like maybe you spend 2 weeks on it, then someone new replaces you. This eliminates the potential conflicts, gives lots of players a special way to speak their minds, and brings in a wider range of input.


Rip

Originally Posted by TMatus

This was my thoughts exactly when I read this...great their going to look at the forums find the people who have posted the most "positive" comments and tell us all these fanboys represent the whole.

They're surely not going to simply browse posts on the forums and use that to make some subjective judgment about who is "best" to pick for some special panel. I'm guessing it will be a random process based one some criteria on a survey (sort of like a beta invite), and the members will be rotated out in some way after a period of time.

It's just a nice way of getting a little input from players -- it isn't the appointment of some elite group to decide the direction of the game. I don't think we should attach so much importance to it.


Rip

We have a starting tutorial and a skirmish tutorial. Can we also have a fellowship tutorial with some NPCs just to go through the different modes, options and functions and see who can do what? Or perhaps there is one and I simply skipped it? One of the first quests you need a fellowship for, would be a good place to have this.

Thanks for a great game. I especially like the new travelling options.

Originally Posted by JohnAwesome12

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before

but Helms deep didn't have orcs. Saruman made Uruk-hai, Mordor had orcs.
There were no orcs in Saruman his army.

So if turbine is populating helms deep with both orcs and uruk-hai they are making a huge mistake from lore perspective

Not at all true. Saruman bred orcs with men to make half-orcs that could stand the sunlight. Both Mordor and Isengard fielded Uruk-hai, a larger breed of orc (almost as tall as men).

Great to hear positive news on game development. The LOTRO world and player community are awesome and have a fantastic feel.

As a general theme, perhaps the developers could keep in mind the goal to keep the game fun, engaging and Epic. I know I am not alone in being frustrated by the very, very heavy grind required and many quests seeming very mundane and repetitive. Think quality over quantity on quests.

Also in redesigning classes, could I suggest trying to make characters feel more powerful against general mobs. Heroes should be able to cut through 5-20+ snaga orcs, etc. but fighting a troll should require much more effort and a powerful group (think of the chamber of Mazarbul in the movie). Instead of constantly scaling monster levels why not add more to fights and require more tactics in dealing with large mobs and difficult bosses.

One last point, please add much more sound and ambience to places and quests. Places like Bree still feel like empty movie sets apart from the players and interaction of NPCs in quests is pretty poor overall.

Thanks for listening (I hope)!

Originally Posted by Rippentuck

Housing: I hope it's a complete overhaul and removal of the hook system, toward as much a free form placement system as is possible with the engine. Housing could be so much more than it is, both in terms of player enjoyment and Turbine revenue. If it's just "more" of the same system we have now, it will be a waste of time and effort. People won't spend money on the exact same system, it has to be new.

I would like the idea of more customizable layouts including much more freedom to place furniture and decorations.

Housing upgrades I would to see:

1. Removal of dead houses, if rent has not been paid for a period of say 90 days or maybe 6 months real world time, the house becomes available for sale. This would cure the problem with dead neighborhoods and would allow newer players to live in older areas.

2. Balancing between deluxe and regular houses - since gold has become so relatively easy to come by, there is an abundance of available regular houses compared to luxury houses. I would suggest new areas should spawn with much fewer regular houses and more luxury houses.

3. Non-generic housing areas. I would love to see some random generation of terrain and layout in housing areas, it is a bit boring that all elf areas look identical.

4. Skin changes, all houses look the same. The same way wall paper and floor surfaces can be changed, lawns, garden layout and exterior house surface and color should be customizable as well to break up the monotony.

5. Gold sink - housing could be and should be more of a gold sink, either by introducing rare but valuable decorations that are not strictly acquired as random rare drops, but through loot boxes or a similar rare loot drop mechanic or as automated auctions in the AH that are randomly generated.

6. Active decorations, right now the only decoration I can think of that works automatically is the lothlorien lanterns, they turn on at night and turn off during the day and the dormouse that comes out. More items should be like this, trees and flowers could change over time. Fireplaces that turn on when you get close, how about a firepit with a rotating rotisserie.

7. Option for a horse stable, many players at higher levels have a ton of mounts and often some rare ones. Having a stable next to your house where all your mounts could be displayed passively would be nice, or maybe a pasture where they could walk around and graze.

8. Updated house cosmetic drops from instances, most of the drops you get from instances such as the moria, angmar or GA drops are pretty morbid and only works for certain types of decor. It would be nice to have a better selection, many instances have items that could easily be "looted" and make for nice decorative items without the morbid theme.

A lot of words to say very little. A council? Isnt that what the forum is? Housing? There are so many requests here in the forum regarding housing, why would you need more input? Scaling skills down? ok, thats nice, my wrist hurts all the time from hitting so many skills.

Now the question is when will the updates happen? And whats in this next 12 hour update?


Housing:
Every character gets a free house when the character is created, with 20 vault spaces. You can purchase bigger homes and more vault space from the store, earn rewards, gifts from festival drops and quests.

Only having one house per account is the craziest thing I had heard of. So why do i want to craft furnishing, or buy furnishing , or earn furnishings from the festivals, and, or run instances over and over for stuff that has no place to go? You have limited the game's attraction, attraction = put more money into lotro? Nah. Why would you add mounted combat, and not correct housing?

Each characters house is an instance. If allowed, any character can enter another characters home. Enter house via a menu window from clicking on a house npc, found in every major town, (no more travel to homestead) type in the characters name or click the name in your friends list that is listed below the blank and hit enter (if you want to keep homesteads fine, but its a waste of space in my opinion).

Each player gets 15 free slots for furnishing, more are rented on a monthly basis using points.

All home furnishings are movable, even to the point of putting a bed on the ceiling, no hooks, in dumb places. You can purchase as many chests (a variety of look and space) as you want, receive them as drops from boss fights and festival quests.

Originally Posted by 0Pinger

Player’s Council

How about an extension to player helping players, voluntary player GM's or more likely Knowledge masters KM's than Gamesmaster. Thinking of the Ark program from Anarchy Online which is mostly staffed by voluntary players.

They start out as a Greeter, who popups in starter zones helping the cannon fodder. Only powers they have is to port players to them, but monitored as it was a skill that was to be used only when required, if abused they got kicked from the program.

Next rank they take ticket/petition reports, a bit like your current crop of first line support but more so, help with what they can and pass on to someone higher up if they can't.

Next rank they have gained the trust and knowledge to have more commands at their disposal, item/mob spawning. Also character quest/mission flag inspecting. Guess much like you senior GM's but they Know what they are talking about, they aren't using a known faults database and using copy/paste replies, but actual game knowledge as they have played the game for years, not just 15 mins that most GM's seem to have

Higher ranks above those as well, mostly Training/ Policing the GMs and Event organisers, they mostly ended up as paid employees

I like this Idea

Regarding housing, would it be possible to have a design function which could allow for the basic housing lot to be manipulated to create heights and depths?
I currently have had from the start the only island house style with a single bridge accessing it(dwarven neighbourhood).
If the housing overhaul will remove the old neighbourhoods I would like to be able to choose or create a new housing spot that similarly would be inaccessible except for a bridge and surrounded by water below the cliffs from where I could sit and fish.

I find it interesting how the lion's share of feedback seems to be hung up on this Players' Council. Not on content as it exists, or refinement of developers' living ideas, but on the actual creation of material in the first place. Having played this game and been thoroughly invested (moreso formerly than of late due to real life commitments and the waning of in-game friends and acquaintances) since the days of SoA pre-launch beta, it actually pains me to see this as a vieled (albeit more skillfully than not) attempt to hide the dwindling talent pool at WB Games, er I mean Turbine.

With the tens of thousands of player posts on the forums, the countless logs of in-game chat from all the servers, and the innumerable webpages containing commentary/suggestions/wishlists on LotRO or any other game you can imagine, there is no shortage of source material to integrate into the game to create a product that would turn gamers into consumers.

Obviously there is the matter of narrowing the scope and combining those results into a functional whole, to be combined with a preexisting amalgam of the work of Turbine employees of yesteryear. But quite frankly there are no shortage of shoeless kids in India who would do this for a fraction of what the original development team was making (that's not a racist comment, there are in fact many, very intellegent, yet destitute people in India who fit this description; I've even had the privelege of meeting and befriending a few). But when it comes down to it, even the meager pay that someone in that condition would seek in compensation is too much when you weigh it against the prospect of "free" labor. Just spruce it up and give it a sexy name like Players' Council. It has the lore tie in of Council and the personalization of Player ("hey that's me!" says #BolboBiggins) and you literally have hundreds of rubes duped into fighting over who gets the "honor" of giving away their intellectual property potential and their personal time to convey it clearly.

This, in and of itself, might be met with a skeptical, "that sounds a bit cynical," but when you factor in the host of other data just waiting in the wings to be connected, the profundity of the situation becomes a bit harder to deny. There are many more successful, in terms of subscribing customers, games out there (the evidence for this rests plainly in the fact that Turbine refuses to give hard numbers for their active player account roles, if they were competitive in this regard, it would be a huge selling point in terms of advertizing a large pre-existing playerbase to join, and they would deservedly use it to the benefit of garnering new players by heralding their success), even if you want to limit the scope to MMOs, if the goal is to implement features into the game that are attractive to players, there's no shortage of places to look for those.

And did the Free-to-Play conversion perform it's purported goal of opening up access to the game to a wider range of people who would then hopefully further fill the coffers of Turbine in order that they might hire more talent to keep expanding the game? Well, I'm not ashamed to say that as a Lifetime Subscriber that I have spent a couple hundred more over the last couple years above my original purchase price, and not just for the expansions themselves. But it sure doesn't appear that the money has gone to staffing a vibrant and growing development team. Just look at the preponderance of bugs in the game. And I don't mean the chronic complaintants who couldn't be happy if their very souls depended upon it. Any honest observer sees that the way bugs are dealt with are the 1-2 knockout punch of 1. relegating the bug to the Known Issues list followed by 2. releasing new content to draw players away from the content where the bug existed in order that fewer people will complain about it.

"But releasing new content, doesn't that mean there's people there thinking up new things to introduce into the game?" Well let's see, the works of the Tolkeins spans two lifetimes. So what? 8? decades and counting of source material upon which to develop? Content is not lacking. "But what about Legendary Items?" Double-down time/money sink. It's not truly Legendary if you trash it every 3 months because "oh look Second Ages are available" "Oh look, First Ages are available" "oh look another level cap increase" rinse-repeat-fail Visual illustration here. But you sure spent all that time harvesting the right legacies off of other "Legendary Items" and more time getting the right currency to tier up those legacies, and all the in-game gold combining relics, or even better just go to the Turbine Store and Pay-to-Win all that right now, the true definition of Legendary if I ever saw one. Oh and instant gratification is new to,o right? "But mounted combat looked awesome" Really? you mean the staged videos that didn't have the rubberband-fest that is riding War-steeds in town? the complete lack of useful/engaging content involving the mount? *by the way, it's (insert-every-time-of-day-here), Bugud's up* the open-tapping that lets you drive by and get loot from mobs you spend no effort on defeating, but ensuring you get unshared loot resulting in server-wide gold value inflation on a scale rivaled only by the economies of third-world dictatorships and first-world social welfare states that are deficit-spending themselves into oblivion?

"Okay you have some points, but they said they're working on Helm's Deep doesn't that mean they have developers who are doing something new?" Do you really have to ask that? Seriously, of course they were going to do Helm's Deep. Of course it was going to include Mounted Combat. Of course it wasn't going to be available immediately at launch of RoR. The story took us there, it was obvious, they don't need a Players' Council for you to tell them to put that in the game. Don't be distracted by the shiny and fail to observe what isn't there. How did they let us know about this? twitter? Facebook? Come on, if this were a vibrant development machine, we wouldn't still be using MyLotro beta, the website would be a fully-fledged, functional, self-contained player resource. The Lorebook wouldn't be the elephant graveyard of topic headings and linked-item hover deaths. News feeds would come direct from the source and you wouldn't have to load up some third-party substitute. "But they said they were working on the website and that it'd be rolled out later this year." Did they now? Well good for them. Just in time too, the game's coming out in... looks like 6 years ago this April. Clearly they have a crack team of highly dedicated talent burning the midnight oil to make sure that you know that you matter to them enough to give you a fully function fan/player site only 2000+ days after the game came out. I feel much better knowing they're on top of that.

I guess I'll just count my blessings that I've got a Lifetime account (well at least until it's converted into Galadriel Pennies, or Aragorn-head Nickels or whatever brilliant scheme they have for streamlining your experience of linking your credit card to their bank account for the ever-increasingly impressive set of added features like making sure you never have to see the inside of a rez circle or having to look at *gasp* scenery! while you run back and forth between quest-givers).

I guess I was wrong after all, there must be plenty of quality developers at work bringing us riveting new content never before seen in an MMO: the ability to drive a flying tank on a fantasy backdrop but then not need to because we can now magically teleport between locations while suffering no averse side-effects like death, dread, or dismounting; and remember, you had a say in making it happen. If you believe that, then I have a nice set of invisible clothes to sell you, your majesty!

I've been so incredibly burnt out that I haven't really played in months, but the housing revamp has me seriously nerding out. I love decorating my house and have some good memories of just hanging out in my house and friends' houses, just chit-chatting. I think this revamp will help breathe new life into the housing areas.

AND if that weren't enough, I just noticed that my signature is not updating my crafting proficiency/mastery through tier 8, my moors stars, nor is my profile update to my real life location being reflected in my posts. Anybody can (and does) fix major hurdles to usability, but it's those little details that really make the experience.

Originally Posted by Marchewka

I find it interesting how the lion's share of feedback seems to be hung up on this Players' Council. Not on content as it exists, or refinement of developers' living ideas, but on the actual creation of material in the first place. Having played this game and been thoroughly invested (moreso formerly than of late due to real life commitments and the waning of in-game friends and acquaintances) since the days of SoA pre-launch beta, it actually pains me to see this as a vieled (albeit more skillfully than not) attempt to hide the dwindling talent pool at WB Games, er I mean Turbine.

With the tens of thousands of player posts on the forums, the countless logs of in-game chat from all the servers, and the innumerable webpages containing commentary/suggestions/wishlists on LotRO or any other game you can imagine, there is no shortage of source material to integrate into the game to create a product that would turn gamers into consumers.

Obviously there is the matter of narrowing the scope and combining those results into a functional whole, to be combined with a preexisting amalgam of the work of Turbine employees of yesteryear. But quite frankly there are no shortage of shoeless kids in India who would do this for a fraction of what the original development team was making (that's not a racist comment, there are in fact many, very intellegent, yet destitute people in India who fit this description; I've even had the privelege of meeting and befriending a few). But when it comes down to it, even the meager pay that someone in that condition would seek in compensation is too much when you weigh it against the prospect of "free" labor. Just spruce it up and give it a sexy name like Players' Council. It has the lore tie in of Council and the personalization of Player ("hey that's me!" says #BolboBiggins) and you literally have hundreds of rubes duped into fighting over who gets the "honor" of giving away their intellectual property potential and their personal time to convey it clearly.

This, in and of itself, might be met with a skeptical, "that sounds a bit cynical," but when you factor in the host of other data just waiting in the wings to be connected, the profundity of the situation becomes a bit harder to deny. There are many more successful, in terms of subscribing customers, games out there (the evidence for this rests plainly in the fact that Turbine refuses to give hard numbers for their active player account roles, if they were competitive in this regard, it would be a huge selling point in terms of advertizing a large pre-existing playerbase to join, and they would deservedly use it to the benefit of garnering new players by heralding their success), even if you want to limit the scope to MMOs, if the goal is to implement features into the game that are attractive to players, there's no shortage of places to look for those.

And did the Free-to-Play conversion perform it's purported goal of opening up access to the game to a wider range of people who would then hopefully further fill the coffers of Turbine in order that they might hire more talent to keep expanding the game? Well, I'm not ashamed to say that as a Lifetime Subscriber that I have spent a couple hundred more over the last couple years above my original purchase price, and not just for the expansions themselves. But it sure doesn't appear that the money has gone to staffing a vibrant and growing development team. Just look at the preponderance of bugs in the game. And I don't mean the chronic complaintants who couldn't be happy if their very souls depended upon it. Any honest observer sees that the way bugs are dealt with are the 1-2 knockout punch of 1. relegating the bug to the Known Issues list followed by 2. releasing new content to draw players away from the content where the bug existed in order that fewer people will complain about it.

"But releasing new content, doesn't that mean there's people there thinking up new things to introduce into the game?" Well let's see, the works of the Tolkeins spans two lifetimes. So what? 8? decades and counting of source material upon which to develop? Content is not lacking. "But what about Legendary Items?" Double-down time/money sink. It's not truly Legendary if you trash it every 3 months because "oh look Second Ages are available" "Oh look, First Ages are available" "oh look another level cap increase" rinse-repeat-fail Visual illustration here. But you sure spent all that time harvesting the right legacies off of other "Legendary Items" and more time getting the right currency to tier up those legacies, and all the in-game gold combining relics, or even better just go to the Turbine Store and Pay-to-Win all that right now, the true definition of Legendary if I ever saw one. Oh and instant gratification is new to,o right? "But mounted combat looked awesome" Really? you mean the staged videos that didn't have the rubberband-fest that is riding War-steeds in town? the complete lack of useful/engaging content involving the mount? *by the way, it's (insert-every-time-of-day-here), Bugud's up* the open-tapping that lets you drive by and get loot from mobs you spend no effort on defeating, but ensuring you get unshared loot resulting in server-wide gold value inflation on a scale rivaled only by the economies of third-world dictatorships and first-world social welfare states that are deficit-spending themselves into oblivion?

"Okay you have some points, but they said they're working on Helm's Deep doesn't that mean they have developers who are doing something new?" Do you really have to ask that? Seriously, of course they were going to do Helm's Deep. Of course it was going to include Mounted Combat. Of course it wasn't going to be available immediately at launch of RoR. The story took us there, it was obvious, they don't need a Players' Council for you to tell them to put that in the game. Don't be distracted by the shiny and fail to observe what isn't there. How did they let us know about this? twitter? Facebook? Come on, if this were a vibrant development machine, we wouldn't still be using MyLotro beta, the website would be a fully-fledged, functional, self-contained player resource. The Lorebook wouldn't be the elephant graveyard of topic headings and linked-item hover deaths. News feeds would come direct from the source and you wouldn't have to load up some third-party substitute. "But they said they were working on the website and that it'd be rolled out later this year." Did they now? Well good for them. Just in time too, the game's coming out in... looks like 6 years ago this April. Clearly they have a crack team of highly dedicated talent burning the midnight oil to make sure that you know that you matter to them enough to give you a fully function fan/player site only 2000+ days after the game came out. I feel much better knowing they're on top of that.

I guess I'll just count my blessings that I've got a Lifetime account (well at least until it's converted into Galadriel Pennies, or Aragorn-head Nickels or whatever brilliant scheme they have for streamlining your experience of linking your credit card to their bank account for the ever-increasingly impressive set of added features like making sure you never have to see the inside of a rez circle or having to look at *gasp* scenery! while you run back and forth between quest-givers).

I guess I was wrong after all, there must be plenty of quality developers at work bringing us riveting new content never before seen in an MMO: the ability to drive a flying tank on a fantasy backdrop but then not need to because we can now magically teleport between locations while suffering no averse side-effects like death, dread, or dismounting; and remember, you had a say in making it happen. If you believe that, then I have a nice set of invisible clothes to sell you, your majesty!

It was written well but I could really use a TL/DR

As a side note this is exactly why the forums are not enough. This much information combined with all the other info on the forums is waaay to much to process. They would never get any work done. They need a TL/DR to the forums such as the proposed council.

The conclusions that I drew really do bother me; I really do hope that I am wrong, or even if I'm not, that it changes for the better. I love this game. And even if everything I said is 100% accurate, I would still hope that it turns around because I am enamored by the source material and would love to see it flushed out, all the way to the Grey Havens. It just saddens me that I'm running on hope to carry me to see that come to pass.

Originally Posted by Marchewka

I find it interesting how the lion's share of feedback seems to be hung up on this Players' Council. Not on content as it exists, or refinement of developers' living ideas, but on the actual creation of material in the first place. Having played this game and been thoroughly invested (moreso formerly than of late due to real life commitments and the waning of in-game friends and acquaintances) since the days of SoA pre-launch beta, it actually pains me to see this as a vieled (albeit more skillfully than not) attempt to hide the dwindling talent pool at WB Games, er I mean Turbine.

With the tens of thousands of player posts on the forums, the countless logs of in-game chat from all the servers, and the innumerable webpages containing commentary/suggestions/wishlists on LotRO or any other game you can imagine, there is no shortage of source material to integrate into the game to create a product that would turn gamers into consumers.

Obviously there is the matter of narrowing the scope and combining those results into a functional whole, to be combined with a preexisting amalgam of the work of Turbine employees of yesteryear. But quite frankly there are no shortage of shoeless kids in India who would do this for a fraction of what the original development team was making (that's not a racist comment, there are in fact many, very intellegent, yet destitute people in India who fit this description; I've even had the privelege of meeting and befriending a few). But when it comes down to it, even the meager pay that someone in that condition would seek in compensation is too much when you weigh it against the prospect of "free" labor. Just spruce it up and give it a sexy name like Players' Council. It has the lore tie in of Council and the personalization of Player ("hey that's me!" says #BolboBiggins) and you literally have hundreds of rubes duped into fighting over who gets the "honor" of giving away their intellectual property potential and their personal time to convey it clearly.

This, in and of itself, might be met with a skeptical, "that sounds a bit cynical," but when you factor in the host of other data just waiting in the wings to be connected, the profundity of the situation becomes a bit harder to deny. There are many more successful, in terms of subscribing customers, games out there (the evidence for this rests plainly in the fact that Turbine refuses to give hard numbers for their active player account roles, if they were competitive in this regard, it would be a huge selling point in terms of advertizing a large pre-existing playerbase to join, and they would deservedly use it to the benefit of garnering new players by heralding their success), even if you want to limit the scope to MMOs, if the goal is to implement features into the game that are attractive to players, there's no shortage of places to look for those.

And did the Free-to-Play conversion perform it's purported goal of opening up access to the game to a wider range of people who would then hopefully further fill the coffers of Turbine in order that they might hire more talent to keep expanding the game? Well, I'm not ashamed to say that as a Lifetime Subscriber that I have spent a couple hundred more over the last couple years above my original purchase price, and not just for the expansions themselves. But it sure doesn't appear that the money has gone to staffing a vibrant and growing development team. Just look at the preponderance of bugs in the game. And I don't mean the chronic complaintants who couldn't be happy if their very souls depended upon it. Any honest observer sees that the way bugs are dealt with are the 1-2 knockout punch of 1. relegating the bug to the Known Issues list followed by 2. releasing new content to draw players away from the content where the bug existed in order that fewer people will complain about it.

"But releasing new content, doesn't that mean there's people there thinking up new things to introduce into the game?" Well let's see, the works of the Tolkeins spans two lifetimes. So what? 8? decades and counting of source material upon which to develop? Content is not lacking. "But what about Legendary Items?" Double-down time/money sink. It's not truly Legendary if you trash it every 3 months because "oh look Second Ages are available" "Oh look, First Ages are available" "oh look another level cap increase" rinse-repeat-fail Visual illustration here. But you sure spent all that time harvesting the right legacies off of other "Legendary Items" and more time getting the right currency to tier up those legacies, and all the in-game gold combining relics, or even better just go to the Turbine Store and Pay-to-Win all that right now, the true definition of Legendary if I ever saw one. Oh and instant gratification is new to,o right? "But mounted combat looked awesome" Really? you mean the staged videos that didn't have the rubberband-fest that is riding War-steeds in town? the complete lack of useful/engaging content involving the mount? *by the way, it's (insert-every-time-of-day-here), Bugud's up* the open-tapping that lets you drive by and get loot from mobs you spend no effort on defeating, but ensuring you get unshared loot resulting in server-wide gold value inflation on a scale rivaled only by the economies of third-world dictatorships and first-world social welfare states that are deficit-spending themselves into oblivion?

"Okay you have some points, but they said they're working on Helm's Deep doesn't that mean they have developers who are doing something new?" Do you really have to ask that? Seriously, of course they were going to do Helm's Deep. Of course it was going to include Mounted Combat. Of course it wasn't going to be available immediately at launch of RoR. The story took us there, it was obvious, they don't need a Players' Council for you to tell them to put that in the game. Don't be distracted by the shiny and fail to observe what isn't there. How did they let us know about this? twitter? Facebook? Come on, if this were a vibrant development machine, we wouldn't still be using MyLotro beta, the website would be a fully-fledged, functional, self-contained player resource. The Lorebook wouldn't be the elephant graveyard of topic headings and linked-item hover deaths. News feeds would come direct from the source and you wouldn't have to load up some third-party substitute. "But they said they were working on the website and that it'd be rolled out later this year." Did they now? Well good for them. Just in time too, the game's coming out in... looks like 6 years ago this April. Clearly they have a crack team of highly dedicated talent burning the midnight oil to make sure that you know that you matter to them enough to give you a fully function fan/player site only 2000+ days after the game came out. I feel much better knowing they're on top of that.

I guess I'll just count my blessings that I've got a Lifetime account (well at least until it's converted into Galadriel Pennies, or Aragorn-head Nickels or whatever brilliant scheme they have for streamlining your experience of linking your credit card to their bank account for the ever-increasingly impressive set of added features like making sure you never have to see the inside of a rez circle or having to look at *gasp* scenery! while you run back and forth between quest-givers).

I guess I was wrong after all, there must be plenty of quality developers at work bringing us riveting new content never before seen in an MMO: the ability to drive a flying tank on a fantasy backdrop but then not need to because we can now magically teleport between locations while suffering no averse side-effects like death, dread, or dismounting; and remember, you had a say in making it happen. If you believe that, then I have a nice set of invisible clothes to sell you, your majesty!

Very well said. +rep

Turbine you have my full support. I have been a part of the community since Fall 2006 (Beta) and in the truest sense Lord of the Rings Online was a dream come true. Keep doing what you guys are doing. You continue to care about the game, the players, and Tolkien and in my mine that is what matters. You have proved to me that you all excel at this.

Thanks for all you do, I will be playing this year and in the many years to follow.

Grim

Glad to see you feel you have the staff to tackle these issues that have been on the back burner for so long. Housing update better include a crafting area in the village or it will still not be visited often.

Skill pruning worries me. We worked hard to get our original legendary traits and could use 3 of them at level 50. Now here we are at level 85 and are still so numb that we can only remember 3 of them at a time. Not sure that forcing our characters into one path of expertise is a good thing, yet it sounds like you may be leaning that way. Hope I'm wrong about that.

But at least you are looking to improve the game and not sit on it as a cash cow. I applaud that and look forward to the improvements.