It has come to my attention that a certain group of players on the server I play on have been farming Reavers on a daily basis. One of the players made Rank 10 in ONE DAY of doing this. Not only are they, IMHO, violating the CoC, but they are flaunting the fact that they are doing this as well, both in-game and here on the forums.
This problem has been reported several times, but the only response we ever get is that "multi-boxing is not considered a violation".
Multi-boxing is not the issue here. The issue is that there are many legitimate players in the Ettenmoors, some that have been playing there for many years, that find it disheartening that a player can come in to the Ettenmoors and attain Rank 10 in one day when others have been playing for, probably, years and have yet to even attain that rank, and nothing is done about it.
Furthermore, I believe this activity is considered a violation of the Code of Conduct, specifically:
4. While playing the Game or participating in related services, you may not exhibit or partake in behavior that is disruptive to the Game’s normal playability, causes grief or alarm to other players, or degrades the service performance or other players’ client software (for example, deliberately using game bugs or loopholes to disrupt the game or dropping excessive items).
And:
28. You may not restrict or inhibit any other user from using and enjoying the Game or related services.
All and all, this ultimately begs the question "Why even bother playing in the Ettenmoors when we can just farm our way up to Rank 10 or even Rank 15?". That's the question I'll leave with you, Turbine, to answer. Why?
For those of us who don't do PvMP, what is "Reaver farming"? I presume freeps are killing off creeps on free accounts they're running just for this purpose, or something?
One way to fix cross-teaming exploits of that nature is to make rank a zero-sum game... if I gain infamy, you lose it (or at least most of it). Free accounts which are used for this would soon become worth nothing at all, even if they started with a small non-zero amount. Of course, I suspect many players would think the cure was worse than the disease if they did that.
In any case, I'm not exactly sure how this violates the Code of Conduct. I find forced emotes to be pretty annoying, to the extent that I pretty much just skip festivals now. Does that mean other players are "restricting me from using and enjoying the Game or related services"? Not holding my breath for that argument to get any traction with GMs.
It has come to my attention that a certain group of players on the server I play on have been farming Reavers on a daily basis. One of the players made Rank 10 in ONE DAY of doing this. Not only are they, IMHO, violating the CoC, but they are flaunting the fact that they are doing this as well, both in-game and here on the forums.
This problem has been reported several times, but the only response we ever get is that "multi-boxing is not considered a violation".
Multi-boxing is not the issue here. The issue is that there are many legitimate players in the Ettenmoors, some that have been playing there for many years, that find it disheartening that a player can come in to the Ettenmoors and attain Rank 10 in one day when others have been playing for, probably, years and have yet to even attain that rank, and nothing is done about it.
Furthermore, I believe this activity is considered a violation of the Code of Conduct, specifically:
And:
All and all, this ultimately begs the question "Why even bother playing in the Ettenmoors when we can just farm our way up to Rank 10 or even Rank 15?". That's the question I'll leave with you, Turbine, to answer. Why?
/signed for what its worth. We know by now the are not going to do anything about it.
For those of us who don't do PvMP, what is "Reaver farming"? I presume freeps are killing off creeps on free accounts they're running just for this purpose, or something?
A player, or group of players, has somewhere between 20 and 30 Reavers that they farm, and those Reavers are all controlled by one or two people.
Think 20 Reavers all lined up, just sitting there waiting to be taken out.
I would go into further detail, but I believe I would get in trouble for what could be considered an exploit.
You said it yourself it has been reported several times so if it was indeed a violation of the CoC it would have been solved already. I would dare to say that has been reported hundreds of times just this year alone. Until what you call a violation of the CoC is indeed considered as such by the ones that own the game it will exist no matter what players may think about it because it is allowed to be done.
As for the legitimate players as you call them why rate their own rank by what others do with theirs? One would think that what you do is worth by itself, not by what anyone else does or thinks of it.
Queen of Hearts
"Off with their heads! OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!"
It has come to my attention that a certain group of players on the server I play on have been farming Reavers on a daily basis. One of the players made Rank 10 in ONE DAY of doing this. Not only are they, IMHO, violating the CoC, but they are flaunting the fact that they are doing this as well, both in-game and here on the forums.
This problem has been reported several times, but the only response we ever get is that "multi-boxing is not considered a violation".
Multi-boxing is not the issue here. The issue is that there are many legitimate players in the Ettenmoors, some that have been playing there for many years, that find it disheartening that a player can come in to the Ettenmoors and attain Rank 10 in one day when others have been playing for, probably, years and have yet to even attain that rank, and nothing is done about it.
Furthermore, I believe this activity is considered a violation of the Code of Conduct, specifically:
And:
All and all, this ultimately begs the question "Why even bother playing in the Ettenmoors when we can just farm our way up to Rank 10 or even Rank 15?". That's the question I'll leave with you, Turbine, to answer. Why?
While i agree it needs sorting out you won't get the answer you hope for. This has been debated over and over again and on multiple occasions blue's have stepped in and told us clearly it is not a violation and they will do nothing about it.
It is hight time something is done against this Reaver farming. It is so unsportsmanlike. And while that is sort of semi-tolerable on PvE, it is absolutely the pits of the worst on PvP.
Why? PvP needs honest competition to survive! It is the very foundation of PvP!
Reaver farming goes against everything that is honest competition. Turbine: please act now or I do fear you will see much of your effort in the PvP redesign go to waste.
Reaver farming -is- in violation of the CoC on at least two ground. Reaver farmers are:
a) griefing those other players who compete in an honest way to gain renown and commendations;
b) using a loophole to gain excessive amounts of renown and commendations.
This thread has place and merit under 'General discussion'. This involves a development that can cause harm to the playerbase of any server that is affected by this behaviour. What causes harm to the playerbase is a matter of General Concern to all, including PvE-ers. Sapience/Celestrata: please do not move this thread.
Reaver farming -is- in violation of the CoC on at least two ground. Reaver farmers are:
a) griefing those other players who compete in an honest way to gain renown and commendations;
b) using a loophole to gain excessive amounts of renown and commendations.
That's not how Turbine see it, their response would probably be something like ...
a) A griefer is a player that purposely irritates and harasses other players.. There's no harassment and not intention to irritate, it is not griefing.
b) They are using legitimate game mechanics, they may be using them in a way that was not intended, but because they are not exploiting and bugs or hacks then they are playing legitimately.
It's unfortunate, as it really is a problem, it is unfair (although some would argue that everyone can make F2P accounts and do the same).
Now i have never PvP'd in this game, but am i right in assuming that it would be similar to other whereby two teams fight? Or is it "open" PvP? If it is the former then there is a valid argument that they're disrupting the game as they are effectively fixing the sides, if it's the latter then i don't see a problem, they're not stopping anyone joining or PvP'ing.
Reaver farming is a true violation of the CoC. Your prowess in PvP is based upon:
A) Player skill - this has to be said;
B) The benefits of rank (availability of perks/items), which is gained by renown;
C) PvP armor baring the stat 'Audacity', which is paid for by commendations.
Reaver farming allows one to gain an unreasonable amount of renown and commendations, giving one an unfair advantage above others.
Compare this to say someone using a loophole in PvE to farm Saruman cloak clasps. Multiple clasps per week! Would that be a violation of the CoC?
These people are gaining excessive amounts of renown and commendation. It is in violation with the CoC.
And it is a slap in the face of honest PvMP-ers which in my book amounts to griefing.
There are 15 Ranks, Ranks are gained by Renown on Freepside and you can use Commendations gained by finishing quests and killing Creeps to barter for some pretty good armour. R15 takes a long time to get to, like, I think the first guy to hit R15 was in 2010/11, 3 years after the game's release.
Basically, what these guys are doing is using multiple accounts, killing them over and over again so they can rank up ridiculously fast and gain Comms at a huge rate. They can then use these Comms to get high tier PvMP armour, and considering Comms are account-wide, they can then also make their Creeps stronger.
Think of it this way, you bug out Hytbold so you get limitless quests in one day and can rebuild Hytbold in one day. It's the same thing, except one would get fixed, the other won't. Whilst it isn't griefing, it is unfair and should be removed. Only problem is, Turbine make extra revenue from multi-boxers and therefore don't give a &&&&. Plus, they don't give a &&&& about PvMP either.
ze end
Morvathir 65 Guardian (Rank 7), Morcallor 65 Craptain (Rank 0.5), other toons unworthy of mention. Slavetothebum R4 Reaver, Bummagic R2, other toons unworthy of mention cause they have not done the rite of initiation.
You said it yourself it has been reported several times so if it was indeed a violation of the CoC it would have been solved already. I would dare to say that has been reported hundreds of times just this year alone. Until what you call a violation of the CoC is indeed considered as such by the ones that own the game it will exist no matter what players may think about it because it is allowed to be done.
As for the legitimate players as you call them why rate their own rank by what others do with theirs? One would think that what you do is worth by itself, not by what anyone else does or thinks of it.
Which is why we are asking for a policy change, a shift from turning a blind eye on this towards actual corrective action.
Also, PvMP is a community. PvMP-ers need to work together to achieve their goals. In a community we do not merely look at ourselves, we also look at others and compare ourselves with others. It is also a game! Participating in a game looses merit if others cheat. Even if that cheating happens on another gameboard within the same gameroom. It does not directly affect my game, but it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth to know that others in the same gameroom are cheating and getting away with it.
I don't PvMP in this game. I'm not a PvP'er and as such this subject doesn't effect me directly. I do know of its existance though. But Edrogar raises a point from Turbine's point of view:
Originally Posted by Edrogar
a) A griefer is a player that purposely irritates and harasses other players.. There's no harassment and not intention to irritate, it is not griefing.
b) They are using legitimate game mechanics, they may be using them in a way that was not intended, but because they are not exploiting and bugs or hacks then they are playing legitimately.
What is described in this thread as "reaver-farming", I know under the term "Fight Clubbing". Both basically have the same defenition; to kill an alt over and over to quickly gain a rank in PvP. If this alt is on the same account or not, is quite irrelevant.
Since Turbine is not opposed to dual-boxing the game, the option is present to fight club a character to maximum rank swiftly. It is usually done in a remote area, so that other people don't notice this. Why in a remote area? Simply because it is heavily frowned upon by the rest of the community, and perhaps even by the game developer itself.
Since dual boxing is not a code-violation and no bugs are being exploited, it is very unlikely that the players doing this will face anything worse then the comments of the community members that disagree with the practice. They will certainly not get banned because of it. It is, tecnically, no different then when a player kills another player on another account.
Although I said earlier in this post that it doesn't effect me personally, I do understand the point of view from this thread. And I have to agree that it is a dispicable practice. It is as old as PvP itself and many game developers have tried to stop it by using the deminishing returns on killing the same "player".
I'm not sure how much good this will do, but perhaps making a max level difference might help. This in the sence of a player being, for instance, three levels higher then the target does not get any infamy/reknown for the kill; killing a rank 0 creep as a rank 3 freep yields 0 reknown. Just brainstorming here.
I don't PvMP in this game. I'm not a PvP'er and as such this subject doesn't effect me directly. I do know of its existance though. But Edrogar raises a point from Turbine's point of view:
What is described in this thread as "reaver-farming", I know under the term "Fight Clubbing". Both basically have the same defenition; to kill an alt over and over to quickly gain a rank in PvP. If this alt is on the same account or not, is quite irrelevant.
Since Turbine is not opposed to dual-boxing the game, the option is present to fight club a character to maximum rank swiftly. It is usually done in a remote area, so that other people don't notice this. Why in a remote area? Simply because it is heavily frowned upon by the rest of the community, and perhaps even by the game developer itself.
Since dual boxing is not a code-violation and no bugs are being exploited, it is very unlikely that the players doing this will face anything worse then the comments of the community members that disagree with the practice. They will certainly not get banned because of it. It is, tecnically, no different then when a player kills another player on another account.
Although I said earlier in this post that it doesn't effect me personally, I do understand the point of view from this thread. And I have to agree that it is a dispicable practice. It is as old as PvP itself and many game developers have tried to stop it by using the deminishing returns on killing the same "player".
I'm not sure how much good this will do, but perhaps making a max level difference might help. This in the sence of a player being, for instance, three levels higher then the target does not get any infamy/reknown for the kill; killing a rank 0 creep as a rank 3 freep yields 0 reknown. Just brainstorming here.
No, this is only comparable with fight clubbing at the mechanism level, but the multiboxing adds another level to it: it is fight clubbing squared and another time squared. It is the N! of fight clubbing.
It also makes players gain in one single day the advantage over others (which is a significant thing in PvMP), which would otherwise take them months to achieve. Think 'rebuilding all of Hytbold in one (1) day'. Think 'gaining 1.000 seals in one (1) day'. It -is- that bad.
There are 15 Ranks, Ranks are gained by Renown on Freepside and you can use Commendations gained by finishing quests and killing Creeps to barter for some pretty good armour. R15 takes a long time to get to, like, I think the first guy to hit R15 was in 2010/11, 3 years after the game's release.
Basically, what these guys are doing is using multiple accounts, killing them over and over again so they can rank up ridiculously fast and gain Comms at a huge rate. They can then use these Comms to get high tier PvMP armour, and considering Comms are account-wide, they can then also make their Creeps stronger.
Think of it this way, you bug out Hytbold so you get limitless quests in one day and can rebuild Hytbold in one day. It's the same thing, except one would get fixed, the other won't. Whilst it isn't griefing, it is unfair and should be removed. Only problem is, Turbine make extra revenue from multi-boxers and therefore don't give a &&&&. Plus, they don't give a &&&& about PvMP either.
ze end
The bolded part:
Except it is not the same thing. In the case of Hytbold that you mention, a bug is exploited. In the case of fight clubbing, the game mechanics are used as intended. The fight clubber doesn't break any rules stated in the CoC, technically.
I'm with you that it's unfair and should be countered. The issue here is that one can open up an unlimited number of free accounts and thus farm a never ending line of creeps. Should Turbine set a limit to the number of accounts one can open? Should Turbine reverse the policy of dual-boxing the game? How can they remove the practice of fight clubbing without taking such drastic measures it would effect others as well?
Multiboxing is generally allowed by MMORPG End User License Agreements, because the characters are still subject to all the normal rules of the game world and are controlled by the player directly. This is in contrast to bots that partially or fully control the characters, which are against the terms of service of most online games.[3]
Most MMORPGs only allow a single character per account to be logged in at once, so multi-boxers need a separate account for each character they want to play simultaneously. In subscription based services, this means paying multiple monthly fees, and buying several copies of game expansions. However, with trial accounts, multiboxing for free is possible. Using World of Warcraft: Starter Edition is one example which has unlimited play for free, albeit with certain in-game limitations surrounding maximum level, currency accrual, etc.[4]
Most game developers allow multiboxing in their games. To date, Age of Conan, Aion, Anarchy Online, City of Heroes, City of Villains, Dungeons and Dragons Online, EVE Online, Lord of the Rings Online, EverQuest, EverQuest II, Lineage, Lineage II, Ultima Online, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, Warhammer Online and World of Warcraft all allow multiboxing. The Chronicles of Spellborn and Rift allow hardware multiboxing, but prohibit software multiboxing. Game publishers do not provide technical support for multiboxing, so while it may be allowed, you may find certain games are not designed to be multiboxed.[5] [6]
However, not all games condone multiboxing. Generally, a rule states that a player can only have one account from an IP address logged on at once. This is usually implemented to keep people from trading items that are limited per day to themselves. Games that do not allow a player to have more than one character at a time include Immortal Night and RuneScape.
No, this is only comparable with fight clubbing at the mechanism level, but the multiboxing adds another level to it: it is fight clubbing squared and another time squared. It is the N! of fight clubbing.
It also makes players gain in one single day the advantage over others (which is a significant thing in PvMP), which would otherwise take them months to achieve. Think 'rebuilding all of Hytbold in one (1) day'. Think 'gaining 1.000 seals in one (1) day'. It -is- that bad.
Again, I'm with on the dispicable practice. Yet the only thing I do here is looking at the CoC and how figt clubbers violate them. And on pure technical terms, they don't. They don't exploit bugs and they are not greifing in the strictest sence of the word. I know they get an unfair amount of renown/infamy and commendations in one day. And as such, an unfair advantage over other PvMP'ers.
I'm with you all on this. Yet I still don't see what bug these awful players are exploiting that would invoke the CoC. They technically kill a player on another account. So no exploit there. Turbine cannot see if it's the same player behind the account, and thus it's a valid kill. It only becomes appearent when one sees it. Yet Turbine allows the use of multiple accounts. Still not a violation of the CoC, or exploiting a bug.
Technically, there is nothing these fight clubbers violate. It's the sense that these players are willing to take whatever it takes by not breaking the rules that upsets other players. You and me both. They use the rules to shortcut their way to rank 15 by killing one or more alts on different accounts, where it should take months or even years to get that far.
I don't PvMP, I'll state that again. I PvE a lot. If I wanted clasps of Saruman's cloak, I can use my five alts; all I have to do is get all the locks to the other four wings. This is also not a violation of any rule in the CoC or exploiting a bug. Yet it is done many times. Should those people be slammed with the ban-hammer as well?
Reaver farming is a true violation of the CoC. Your prowess in PvP is based upon:
A) Player skill - this has to be said;
B) The benefits of rank (availability of perks/items), which is gained by renown;
C) PvP armor baring the stat 'Audacity', which is paid for by commendations.
Reaver farming allows one to gain an unreasonable amount of renown and commendations, giving one an unfair advantage above others.
Compare this to say someone using a loophole in PvE to farm Saruman cloak clasps. Multiple clasps per week! Would that be a violation of the CoC?
These people are gaining excessive amounts of renown and commendation. It is in violation with the CoC.
And it is a slap in the face of honest PvMP-ers which in my book amounts to griefing.
I'm not sure I see what the advantage they are gaining is. What they are doing is clearly unsporting and ethically dubious, but it is not exploiting any bug/loophole/etc. They are legitimately creating drones to be killed, and killing them by using the normal game mechanics.
They are not depriving any other player of anything, except by "devaluing" their achiements. It all depends on how you view those achievements. If you sense of worth is dependent on the admiration of others, then you will definitely feel slighted. If however your sense of worth is grounded in your own knowledge of what you have achieved, then anyone else's actions are irrelavant.
I would fully agree that those who are doing this are contemptible, but I doubt they are doing anything that is "illegal".
Except it is not the same thing. In the case of Hytbold that you mention, a bug is exploited. In the case of fight clubbing, the game mechanics are used as intended. The fight clubber doesn't break any rules stated in the CoC, technically.
I'm with you that it's unfair and should be countered. The issue here is that one can open up an unlimited number of free accounts and thus farm a never ending line of creeps. Should Turbine set a limit to the number of accounts one can open? Should Turbine reverse the policy of dual-boxing the game? How can they remove the practice of fight clubbing without taking such drastic measures it would effect others as well?
There is simple measures that can be used to stop this.
Any player who has heavily participated in farming themselves and has been identified through video/photographical should be warned. On second offence, temporarily banned.
Originally Posted by Shariva
Again, I'm with on the dispicable practice. Yet the only thing I do here is looking at the CoC and how figt clubbers violate them. And on pure technical terms, they don't. They don't exploit bugs and they are not greifing in the strictest sence of the word. I know they get an unfair amount of renown/infamy and commendations in one day. And as such, an unfair advantage over other PvMP'ers.
I'm with you all on this. Yet I still don't see what bug these awful players are exploiting that would invoke the CoC. They technically kill a player on another account. So no exploit there. Turbine cannot see if it's the same player behind the account, and thus it's a valid kill. It only becomes appearent when one sees it. Yet Turbine allows the use of multiple accounts. Still not a violation of the CoC, or exploiting a bug.
Technically, there is nothing these fight clubbers violate. It's the sense that these players are willing to take whatever it takes by not breaking the rules that upsets other players. You and me both. They use the rules to shortcut their way to rank 15 by killing one or more alts on different accounts, where it should take months or even years to get that far.
I don't PvMP, I'll state that again. I PvE a lot. If I wanted clasps of Saruman's cloak, I can use my five alts; all I have to do is get all the locks to the other four wings. This is also not a violation of any rule in the CoC or exploiting a bug. Yet it is done many times. Should those people be slammed with the ban-hammer as well?
There is a very fine between what is griefing and what isn't.
These guys aren't directly griefing, but they are definitely indirectly griefing. They are making a mockery of PvMP, and are disrespecting players who have spent years in the Moors. They are gaining an unfair advantage over other players and the thing is, they're completely open about it. They're not trying to be discrete because of Turbine's so called "rules". Someone swears in a chat, Turbine will swing the banhammer with no hesitation. But if someone is unfairly gaining an advantage over other players and basically bypassing the entire "PvP" in a PvMP zone, Turbine don't care.
As for your PvE example, this is different. Farming yourself has no lock out, it requires no skill and it's 100% bound to work. If you wanted a clasp, you can't be certain it will drop, and you can't be certain that you'd win it.
Morvathir 65 Guardian (Rank 7), Morcallor 65 Craptain (Rank 0.5), other toons unworthy of mention. Slavetothebum R4 Reaver, Bummagic R2, other toons unworthy of mention cause they have not done the rite of initiation.
Unfortunately, fightclubbing (as we call this) has been going on across the servers for a while. It should be a CoC violation, but realistically, it's not.
I know on our server, when people get caught doing it, they are generally ostracized and a lot of them end up transferring off. Sometimes we need to police our own, sad, but true.
There is simple measures that can be used to stop this.
Any player who has heavily participated in farming themselves and has been identified through video/photographical should be warned. On second offence, temporarily banned.
This still makes it a judgement call from Turbine as well. I'm all for penalties of some sort in case of such practices, yet I wonder how effective this is going to be in the end. But it has merit.
Originally Posted by ImirielOfTheNorth
There is a very fine between what is griefing and what isn't. These guys aren't directly griefing, but they are definitely indirectly griefing. They are making a mockery of PvMP, and are disrespecting players who have spent years in the Moors. They are gaining an unfair advantage over other players and the thing is, they're completely open about it. They're not trying to be discrete because of Turbine's so called "rules". Someone swears in a chat, Turbine will swing the banhammer with no hesitation. But if someone is unfairly gaining an advantage over other players and basically bypassing the entire "PvP" in a PvMP zone, Turbine don't care.
The bolded part is the key here. Turbine can act when players are directly griefing. Indirect griefing with fight clubbing is, purely looking at the CoC again, not possible. Normal gameplay is still possible and technically they're only "griefing" their own alts. The issue here is, is it in direct violation of the CoC? If not, then Turbine's hands are bound. If it is, like swearing, then Turbine determine's the penalty. And since the technical and CoC term of griefing or exploiting is not broken....
Originally Posted by ImirielOfTheNorth
As for your PvE example, this is different. Farming yourself has no lock out, it requires no skill and it's 100% bound to work. If you wanted a clasp, you can't be certain it will drop, and you can't be certain that you'd win it.
True, but if I lead the raid, I loot the chest, see if the clasp drops and decide to give it to myself. It's a sure fire way of not getting anyone to join me or join any raid anymore, but I do have the clasp I want. The cries of foul wouldn't be any less, though I stay within the rules of the CoC. I can always claim it was a mistake (not that anyone would believe me).
Many of you pointed out that reaver-farming is no violation of the Code of Conduct and that therefore GMs are not allowed to stop the players from doing so. I think that this reasoning is false even if we suppose for the sake of argument that reaver-farming is indeed no violation of the Code of Conduct. Let me explain why:
If you pay money for playing this game, you accept the game as it is. I have for example no right to get my money back because I think that my guardian sucks in mounted combat. That means to me, that every player accepts that GMs are a part of the game. So what are GMs? They are godlike entities that have powers unmatched by all other player characters or NPCs. Fortunately GMs are benevolent deities most of the time and help the people of Middle Earth with some of their problems. But sometimes these deities seem indifferent to the suffering that the people of Middle Earth experience, perhaps because they are not almighty at all and get distracted by cosmic events we know nothing about. And now I come to my point: Is there any law or Code of Conduct that could refrain GMs from being malevolent gods causing groundless suffering to the people of Middle Earth like arbitrarily depriving PvP-ranks?
So Turbine should not say that they do not have the right to punish reaver-farming. Of course they could do so and of course they should do so – in their very own interest.
Could Turbine put a cap on renown and infamy Per day to curve this? Thats one way, but it may impact legit players too and it take longer to rank up :S
Many of you pointed out that reaver-farming is no violation of the Code of Conduct and that therefore GMs are not allowed to stop the players from doing so. I think that this reasoning is false even if we suppose for the sake of argument that reaver-farming is indeed no violation of the Code of Conduct. Let me explain why:
If you pay money for playing this game, you accept the game as it is. I have for example no right to get my money back because I think that my guardian sucks in mounted combat. That means to me, that every player accepts that GMs are a part of the game. So what are GMs? They are godlike entities that have powers unmatched by all other player characters or NPCs. Fortunately GMs are benevolent deities most of the time and help the people of Middle Earth with some of their problems. But sometimes these deities seem indifferent to the suffering that the people of Middle Earth experience, perhaps because they are not almighty at all and get distracted by cosmic events we know nothing about. And now I come to my point: Is there any law or Code of Conduct that could refrain GMs from being malevolent gods causing groundless suffering to the people of Middle Earth like arbitrarily depriving PvP-ranks?
So Turbine should not say that they do not have the right to punish reaver-farming. Of course they could do so and of course they should do so – in their very own interest.
OK, I'm not sure what to make of your post. You claim that reaver farming (fight clubbing) is against the CoC. Yet I do not see you point out where the players that practice this low behaviour, break it. This also binds the hands of the GM's to take action against the fight clubbers. It is very likely that many GM's play LOTRO themselves and dispice this fight clubbing practice with the same firy vengeance we all do. Yet the rules bind their hands. The GM's want to be benevolent, but cannot be. In emotion, one might be inclined to think that they are indifferent and don't care about the PvMP players. The truth might very well be completely different.
I understand that many, if not most, of the posts in this thread come from emotion. Most players in this thread, including myself, want to see all players to do their best in PvMP to obtain the ranks, renown/infamy and commendations the way it is intended; by roaming around the Ettenmoors and battle other players that actually put up a fight.
1) Start charging again for reaver class. There's a reason this is happening using freevers.
2) Remove/reduce the audacity grind, which incentivizes players to get points as rapidly as possible to be competitive.
3) Increase the diminishing returns for multiple kills, and/or reduce points as mentioned above for rank disparities.
4) Determine farming/multiboxing to be "non-desirable emergent gameplay" and enact penalties for engaging in this behavior.
Last edited by Lurkerinthemist; Nov 12 2012 at 07:41 AM.
OK, I'm not sure what to make of your post. You claim that reaver farming (fight clubbing) is against the CoC. Yet I do not see you point out where the players that practice this low behaviour, break it. This also binds the hands of the GM's to take action against the fight clubbers. It is very likely that many GM's play LOTRO themselves and dispice this fight clubbing practice with the same firy vengeance we all do. Yet the rules bind their hands. The GM's want to be benevolent, but cannot be. In emotion, one might be inclined to think that they are indifferent and don't care about the PvMP players. The truth might very well be completely different.
I understand that many, if not most, of the posts in this thread come from emotion. Most players in this thread, including myself, want to see all players to do their best in PvMP to obtain the ranks, renown/infamy and commendations the way it is intended; by roaming around the Ettenmoors and battle other players that actually put up a fight.
You did misunderstand my post completely. My post started from the premise that reaver-farming is NOT against the CoC and that GMs can NEVERTHELESS punish it. My argument for that is in short: GMs can do what they want. It is like a discotheque: The owner holds the domiciliary rights and can expel you from the discotheque for whatever reason he likes - that means he needs no reason.
Dear Turbine:
All and all, this ultimately begs the question "Why even bother playing in the Ettenmoors when we can just farm our way up to Rank 10 or even Rank 15?". That's the question I'll leave with you, Turbine, to answer. Why?
4 ... if one cheats his way to level 10, how does he harm other players?
28 ... he does no stop any players from having fun, they can still play as they like.
He would hurt others (other then just in their pride) if he camped other players, kept them from gaining ranks, would cause them to lose items, money, or anything else. But as it is you just blame him for going the easy way.
It's not allowed to exploit, but he did not act against the rules you named.
sounds like a game breaker to me, once an exploit becomes common and makes whatever end game armor/rank/ whatever worthless then it will only drive away true players.
Is there a way for players to gank their farms? kill them for themselves? take away his toys and perhaps he/they will just quit in frustration.
Unfortunately, fightclubbing (as we call this) has been going on across the servers for a while. It should be a CoC violation, but realistically, it's not.
I know on our server, when people get caught doing it, they are generally ostracized and a lot of them end up transferring off. Sometimes we need to police our own, sad, but true.
You do realize that 'policing your own' may very well be considered against the CoC? There is a thin line between policing your own and griefing a griefer. And since griefing is against the CoC ...
sounds like a game breaker to me, once an exploit becomes common and makes whatever end game armor/rank/ whatever worthless then it will only drive away true players.
Is there a way for players to gank their farms? kill them for themselves? take away his toys and perhaps he/they will just quit in frustration.
Or /report you for griefing all of his multiboxes.
You did misunderstand my post completely. My post started from the premise that reaver-farming is NOT against the CoC and that GMs can NEVERTHELESS punish it. My argument for that is in short: GMs can do what they want. It is like a discotheque: The owner holds the domiciliary rights and can expel you from the discotheque for whatever reason he likes - that means he needs no reason.
OK, seems I indeed misunderstood the part of your post about fight clubbing being against the CoC.
I will, however, say that GM's can not do anything they want. Yes, technically they can, because they have godlike powers. However, they are still bound by the CoC to take action. If a GM would dismiss the CoC and ban fight clubbers en mass, it would be abusing their position. I certainly don't think that even a GM would be fired in this economic climate. They still need a clear violation of CoC to take such an action.
But I don't believe the job description and responsibilities of a GM are to be discussed here. The fight clubbing and how to discourage/end it are the points of discussion here.
You did misunderstand my post completely. My post started from the premise that reaver-farming is NOT against the CoC and that GMs can NEVERTHELESS punish it. My argument for that is in short: GMs can do what they want. It is like a discotheque: The owner holds the domiciliary rights and can expel you from the discotheque for whatever reason he likes - that means he needs no reason.
True, but this discotheque's bruisers would probably feel their backs covered much better if the discotheque's owner nailed this sign to the wall:
"No multiboxing allowed in the Ettenmoors, this is now against our Code of Conduct"
This is the thing I'm actually asking for here. An explicit rule against multiboxing in the Moors and enforcement of this rule.
It is apparent the current CoC leaves too much room for interpretation.
Reaver farming is despicable, and you just cannot deny that it is cheating. Cheating of any kind is prohibited in most games, but the case is different in this game.
Considering the PvP population is small, mass outrage is something Turbine is not particularly worried about:
1. Most people continue to PvP and feed Turbine money.
2. The majority of Players PvE, and this population is unaffected and indifferent to cheating in PvP.
In fact, farming/cheating is passively encouraged, as the people who call out farmers/ even suggest that a group of people on their server are farming are banned/warned at times. The reason behind this encouragement is farming has the potential of earning Turbine money, especially freep farming (which is quite rare).
You cannot expect Turbine to be "ethical", and lose money. The Developers may hate farming, but they do not make the decisions (IIRC Kelsan stated that he was against farming in a post). Moreover, as explained earlier, Turbine does not care much about PvP: If you have been here for the past 5 years you'll know.
What you can do to prevent farming is:
1. Not farm
2. Let the names of the people who farm be known, so that they may be discouraged
3. Not zerg, Pay 2 Win, or practice any unethical behavior which may lead people to farming
Last edited by Haunt123; Nov 12 2012 at 08:59 AM.
Peaceguy
"With that, I ran back to Hobbiton, Land of the Noobs" - TSK
It has come to my attention that a certain group of players on the server I play on have been farming Reavers on a daily basis. One of the players made Rank 10 in ONE DAY of doing this. Not only are they, IMHO, violating the CoC, but they are flaunting the fact that they are doing this as well, both in-game and here on the forums.
This problem has been reported several times, but the only response we ever get is that "multi-boxing is not considered a violation".
Multi-boxing is not the issue here. The issue is that there are many legitimate players in the Ettenmoors, some that have been playing there for many years, that find it disheartening that a player can come in to the Ettenmoors and attain Rank 10 in one day when others have been playing for, probably, years and have yet to even attain that rank, and nothing is done about it.
Furthermore, I believe this activity is considered a violation of the Code of Conduct, specifically:
And:
All and all, this ultimately begs the question "Why even bother playing in the Ettenmoors when we can just farm our way up to Rank 10 or even Rank 15?". That's the question I'll leave with you, Turbine, to answer. Why?
Bold and underlined: the griefing part. If they kept this out of sight, in secret, it would be mere exploiting to gain excessive renown/commendations/PvMP gear. The flaunting takes it to the griefing level, imho.
I'm not sure I see what the advantage they are gaining is.
Rank 10 people had immediate access to level 85 2nd agers (provided they had the commendations to buy it.. and of course the people using this tactic obviously would). So whilst other people earn them through honest ranking or lucky wins in skirmishes, others have essentially "cheated" to get a reward that makes them more powerful in PvE and PvP.
I don't know if you had any experience in the Moors before audacity came about.. but go back now with none and you're somewhat gimped. So they've also cheated to get gear that makes them more effective in the Moors, not to mention some of it is nice for PvE as well.
I'm not a PvPer but even I can see this isn't about achievement. It's about exploiting in order to make more powerful characters. Some people are not earning their gear, weapons or creep skills (which make them more powerful against others) in an honest manner. The OP would like to see policy changed and rightly so.
Last edited by Lothirieth; Nov 12 2012 at 09:03 AM.
What you can do to prevent farming is:
1. Not farm
2. Let the names of the people who farm be known, so that they may be discouraged
3. Not zerg, Pay 2 Win, or practice any unethical behavior which may lead people to farming
I would advice you to not do number 2. Naming and shaming is also, as I recall, against the CoC and only gives the fight clubbers a weapon to get you banned.
Rank 10 people had immediate access to level 85 2nd agers (provided they had the commendations to buy it.. and of course the people using this tactic obviously would). So whilst other people earn them through honest ranking or lucky wins in skirmishes, others have essentially "cheated" to get a reward that makes them more powerful in PvE and PvP.
I agree it is a form of "cheating", but again, I do not see where the advantage lies. LotRO is not a competitive activity, hence I fail to see how anyone else's achievements impact my play in any way.
My basic reaction is that the folk doing this should be pitied for being so pathetic as to feel there is any need to do so.
snip...
In fact, farming/cheating is passively encouraged, as the people who call out farmers/ even suggest that a group of people on their server are farming are banned/warned at times. The reason behind this encouragement is farming has the potential of earning Turbine money, especially freep farming (which is quite rare).
You cannot expect Turbine to be "ethical", and lose money. The Developers may hate farming, but they do not make the decisions (IIRC Kelsan stated that he was against farming in a post). Moreover, as explained earlier, Turbine does not care much about PvP: If you have been here for the past 5 years you'll know.
snip...
I do not share your opinion. I'd really hope 'added revenue by reaver farming' is -not- the ball Turbine has it's eye on when determining how to gain additional revenues from PvMP. That would be just too sardonic - and outright counterproductive in the end.
Also, one can safely claim that Turbine hasn't always given PvMP much priority. Yet for RoR they did give the Moors a thorough overhaul, out of the many other priority things they could have done with the dev-time (like ... new instances - no they did the Moors overhaul first!). It may not be on top of their list, but it certainly isn't off it either.
Also, Turbine listens to it's community. It may not always be (directly) visible. But they really do listen. This is not the time for a lack of faith. Let us not have this discussion stray in that direction.
For those of us who don't do PvMP, what is "Reaver farming"? I presume freeps are killing off creeps on free accounts they're running just for this purpose, or something?
Why do you feel the need to reply to this thread if you never did PvMP?
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/signed for what its worth. We know by now the are not going to do anything about it.
Originally Posted by Elderban
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