One of the biggest and most significant battles in The Lord of the Rings, obviously a pivotal point in the story. Enough already Captain Obvious!! Along with the Paths of the Dead and the Battle of the Pelenor Fields one of my favorite parts in the trilogy. What would you like to see of this battle? How should Turbine handle it? How would you like to take part? Multiple skirmishes Precious? An instance? Several? A raid (most likely not) ? A group exercise along the lines of pre-turtle quest or the upcoming rebuild-a-town fest? Just wondering.
I think there would be a problem with making helms deep an instance or a skirm, since well, you didn't have any hobbits, elves or dwarfs defending it. So it would be a wee bit of a lore problem.
Could probably work as a huge skirmish with npcs batttling orcs while you run around defending check points or something.
and same said skirmish would be fun too with more people
A proper Raid would be a bit weird because there's supposed to be so many npcs on both sides.
If I remember correctly, the lore has Helm's deep with seven, concentric, circular walls, so one-skirmish-per-wall would seem the obvious way to go.
no, that is the White City in Gondor, near Osgiliath. Minas Tirith (Minas Anor). Helms' Deep, or more properly the Hornburg, is the Rohirrim stronghold with one 20ft wall and a cave complex behind. Encountered within the story before the journey of Aragorn down the paths of the dead.
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I think there would be a problem with making helms deep an instance or a skirm, since well, you didn't have any hobbits, elves or dwarfs defending it. So it would be a wee bit of a lore problem.
On a personal note i hope they do not make The battle of helms deep "session play" It is far to important for that and should be epic in its content
A long long time ago an English teacher read to his class the battle of helms deep, and that was it i was hooked on lord of the rings and the fantisy genre in general.
So please please when you incoperate The Battle into LoTRO make it as huge and significant to the game as that teacher made it to my life.
'One' element could be an instance/skirmish to either lead some civilians out to safety through the cave system or defend them against a small reconnaissance group coming in from the other end? Been a while, but I remember the non-soldier folk being placed in the cave system for safety with escape that way as a possibility... (ducks from impending lore assault, lol).
Otherwise: I've long accepted that session play would be at least part of the answer, though hopefully not the whole answer. It doesn't seem likely that the game engine can sustain the scale of battle numbers that we'd all like, so we're probably going to have to settle for compromise.
@ Milimber: the Battle of the Pelennor Fields for me; can't count how many times I've reread if from Theoden's speech onward
Given the detail of the account in the book and that Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas were the only non-Rohirrim there in the book I can only see session play working for the defense. I consider Jackson's addition of the elves to be a complete abomination that detracts from the tale of Men withstanding the forces of Darkness alone.
However, being part of the relieving force under Erkenbrand would work very well and could get players into the climax of the battle and in mounted combat no less.
Last edited by Rothan117; Sep 10 2012 at 08:14 AM.
I would prefer something similar to the Hall of Night instance. There we got the look of ghosts. In Helms Deep we could get the look of a Rohirrim but keep our class and skills. In session play you must first read all the "new" skills in order to unterstand what your doing. In the case of Heelms Deep it would be way easier for us just to keep our build of the class.
The Battle of Helms Deep could be over when we arrive at the area but there are storyteller (questgivers) who can tell you what happend. But why should they give you high reputation or good gear/medaillions just for listening? Hm...
But what about the other content in the area? We could be hunting fleeing Uruks, rebuild the castle and so on.
Sincerely: Bereanor, Son of Derean
Auch wenn die Schatten das Land verdunkeln tragen einige das Licht der Hoffnung im Herzen!
On a personal note i hope they do not make The battle of helms deep "session play" It is far to important for that and should be epic in its content---
Why do you think session play could not relay the 'epicness' of the battle?
'One' element could be an instance/skirmish to either lead some civilians out to safety through the cave system or defend them against a small reconnaissance group coming in from the other end? Been a while, but I remember the non-soldier folk being placed in the cave system for safety with escape that way as a possibility... (ducks from impending lore assault, lol).
Otherwise: I've long accepted that session play would be at least part of the answer, though hopefully not the whole answer. It doesn't seem likely that the game engine can sustain the scale of battle numbers that we'd all like, so we're probably going to have to settle for compromise.
@ Milimber: the Battle of the Pelennor Fields for me; can't count how many times I've reread if from Theoden's speech onward
My thoughts were similar to this.
But what if, with mounted combat, we weren't part of the siege, but rather part of the cavalry riding in with Gandalf? We'd need to clean up the stragglers from the 10,000 Uruk-Hai army, and get to Theoden and Aragorn before they're overwhelmed...
In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes. When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead
The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.
As much as I care about the lore, this is one case where I have no problem with looking the other way as our characters fight to defend the keep. It's just too large and significant an event to keep us from taking part in some way.
If it does turn out to be purely session play, I am going to highly dissapointed.
As much as I care about the lore, this is one case where I have no problem with looking the other way as our characters fight to defend the keep. It's just too large and significant an event to keep us from taking part in some way.
If it does turn out to be purely session play, I am going to highly dissapointed.
I agree with you. As someone else said once we could be those "free folk who were just over that hill or defending that part of the wall who without the battle couldn't have won but who we aren't going to talk about because they were just there to help out".
On the topic of lore breaking: If we didn't break lore at all then this game would not even be worth playing, fighting dragons, fighting Saurman, helping the rangers, helping the fellowship and being races in LOTR which tend to be very unadventurous (hobbits, elves and dwarves) in general are either "lore breaking" or far fetched in terms of LOTR lore (for some people, but remember this is just a game). But we all enjoy the lore around us and love thinking of our characters as part of LOTR lore. LOTR was written by J.R.R. Tolkien for peoples enjoyment in reading (and was written without the idea of a theme or end moral) it and i would hope he wouldn't be too displeased if in some online game based on his books there was some adventures walking around helping out here and there.
Pretending that you are apart of a fantasy world is very enjoyable and we aren't rewriting the books or anything so it doesn't matter if we let a thing or too slide as 'lore" because then we would miss angles of the story that we would love to be a part of (that isn't too far fetched).
Technically speaking lore is already majorly broken. How many hobbits left to fight in the War? 4 of them. Yet, obviously, that isn't stopping Turbine from having hobbits as a major race for the game, with hundreds of hobbits swarming the servers and making their way to Mordor.
So to skip something as big as Helm's Deep just to keep to the lore (after lore has been broken repeatedly elsewhere) would imo be a mistake. Its just too vital. *shrug*
A 24 person Skirmish (so you can use Skirm Soldiers.) with an Inspired Greatness bonus.
There would be:
170 Arch-nemesis's
250 Nemesis's,
380 Elite Masters,
and 490 Elites, which include,
Mordirith,
Mazog,
That One Level 15 Elite Warg in Chetwood,
Flood the Mighty Steed & Dewitt the Explorer,
Saruman himself,
and that killer rabbit in Enedwaith.
The kicker? They all attack you *at the same time.*
Last edited by Goribeard; Sep 09 2012 at 01:03 PM.
I think there would be a problem with making helms deep an instance or a skirm, since well, you didn't have any hobbits, elves or dwarfs defending it. So it would be a wee bit of a lore problem.
actually the elves came and fought, cos Haldir dies remember
Given the detail of the account in the book and that Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas were the only non-Rohirrim there in the book I can only see session play working for the defense. I consider Jackson's addition of the elves to be a complete abomination that detracts from the tale of Men withstanding the forces of Darkness alone.
However, being part of the relieving force under Eomer would work very well and could get players into the climax of the battle and in mounted combat no less.
Uh, question...why do you have a problem with Jackson having the elves come to the defense, but not a problem with him having Eomer instead of Erkenbrand come at the last moment?
OP: I would like to see thousands of orcs, wargs, and dunlendings assault the walls and fortress all at once, just the way they did it in the movies or Battle for Middle-earth. You are standing atop the Deeping Wall with hundreds of Rohirrim fighting on foot. As the battle begins, hundreds of flaming arrows light up the night sky. Most of these simply sail harmlessly overhead, but a few bury themselves in the Rohirrim npcs.
The orcs charge. Dozens of ladders are hurled against the wall. You and the npcs begin to shove them away, but for every ladder you destroy, another takes its place. When the enemy scales the wall, they come by the hundreds. Your objective is to simply hold out as long as possible.
When the wall falls to the enemy (a large White Hand banner will be placed in the middle), you have two options: make a dash to the Glittering Caves, or seal yourself within the Hornburg. From the caves, you must hold the one entrance against the oncoming tide, with Gimli and Eomer at your side. You must ensure that both of them survive.
If you choose the Hornburg, you be sealed within, cut off from the main battle (but you can still use ranged attacks or dump flaming coals onto the enemy below). You spend a few minutes mulling about, until a horn call announces the arrival of Gandalf and Erkenbrand.
The orcs shatter the gates of the Hornburg. But you and Theoden's soldiers ride out atop your war steeds, and trample the enemy underfoot. You ride down the causeway, hacking down anyone who resists you. At last, Gandalf (mounted atop Shadowfax) charges down the hill, and the orcs retreat -- only to be caught within a forest of Huorns. The Dunlendings gather for one final, doomed assault, and then you see them -- Lheu Brenin and Gun Ain. They challenge you to combat, but you smite them down. The Dunlendings surrender unconditionally, and you have won the day.
That is how I wish to see the Battle of the Hornburg.
I used to pay for expansions but I took an advantage to the knee.
actually the elves came and fought, cos Haldir dies remember
Your talking about the movie, not the books, the games lore is based on the lore of the Professors books, not PJs movie.
I think this will be one area that some lore breakage will happen, Helms Deep is to important to pass up in the game, it would be a huge mistake on Turbines part if they did, or they may do session play to get around the Lore issue.
"I dont't know half of you half as well as i should like; and i like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
Unfortunately I think they will fall back on the crutch of session play. Instead of letting us stay immersed with the characters we have grown over the years we'll experience one of the key scenes through the eyes of a throw-away video game avatar. I can't see any other solution since it was clearly detailed as to who was there. For my money, i'd rather we skip it completely instead of getting another unnatural ham-handed inclusion like the rediculous Isengard prisoner thing.
Informed by Science, Inspired by Art
RK/Mini/Capt/Hnt/Champ -- Raiding on Brandywine and Meneldor.
I'd rather have session play than participating in the actual defense. Session play combined with coming to the rescue with Gandalf would be a good compromise. I know the lore has been bent and broken time and again, but (in my mind) that doesn't mean we should encourage the practice.
Y'know... nobody talks about who might have been along with all those Huorns that show up at the end. We could easily accompany an Ent or two and a giant herd of trees, and spend time defending the Ent against all those thousands of panicked orcs.
But arriving with Gandalf is probably a more feasible idea. There could be lots of mini-boss fights along the way, too.
I think we'll be part of the cavalry that rides with Gandalf to Helm's Deep. Then, after routing the orcs and securing the area, we'll talk to Legolas or Gimli or Aragorn, and then we'll have a session play as one of them to relive the battle. After seeing how Rohan is shaping up, I fully expect Turbine to do justice to a Helm's Deep session play.
If the battle is a session play I'm liable to through my computer across the room. It's just too big an event for us to miss out on. Besides, the battle plays such a huge part in the story that we can't really experience it in session play. This battle has the potential to fuel half the end game content, and if they try and squish it into a few session plays so much will be lost that it'll feel bland.
"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." -Mohandas Gandhi
If the battle is a session play I'm liable to through my computer across the room. It's just too big an event for us to miss out on. Besides, the battle plays such a huge part in the story that we can't really experience it in session play. This battle has the potential to fuel half the end game content, and if they try and squish it into a few session plays so much will be lost that it'll feel bland.
I guess you would see it as raid content then? I am not working for Turbine, but I am almost 100% sure that it will never happen. Content, that so many players want to see, and then only the most hardcore can see? Nope.
I cannot think any better solution than Epics & session play and maybe skirmishes, let Turbine sort out how to pull it off best. I am sure they know the way.
They should have players assisting (skirmish or whatever) from the rear, joined with Gandalf and the Ents. That is, coming to the rescue of Helm's Deep. It makes no sense to have any dwarves, elves, or hobbits participating inside Helm's Deep until the battle is over. I know some players want this but quite a lot of players want adherence to the story from the books, and the books are far more important than some cool fight. If someone wants a cool fight that breaks all the rules then play a cheezy single player WB LoTR game instead.
They should have players assisting (skirmish or whatever) from the rear, joined with Gandalf and the Ents. That is, coming to the rescue of Helm's Deep. It makes no sense to have any dwarves, elves, or hobbits participating inside Helm's Deep until the battle is over. I know some players want this but quite a lot of players want adherence to the story from the books, and the books are far more important than some cool fight. If someone wants a cool fight that breaks all the rules then play a cheezy single player WB LoTR game instead.
It's not just for some 'cool fight', at least not for me. It's because it's effing Helm's Deep, a major lore point in the story and I want to be there to witness it and take part. The 'epic' feel has its part but that's not the sole reason.
I have to ask that you not go making assumptions as to why people want to be there. Frankly it's offensive.
---I cannot think any better solution than Epics & session play and maybe skirmishes, let Turbine sort out how to pull it off best. I am sure they know the way.
What if it'd be like Volume III, Book 5, Chapter 4: The Prince of Rohan?
I, personally, liked the way those instances were laid out, how they worked. In a word, it felt epic.
I think the best would be, several skims that you can play solo, 3-men, fellowship and raid, at different tiers and scalable to lvl that would be awesome. Also a possibility to choose between doing separated skims or one full run.
I know it is lore breaking but it is something I can't not be a part of.
It would also be nice if you could do them with 24people, but maybe that is a little to much for turbine to make(24skim means also 24 soldiers, plus pets) yet it is a battle that deserves it.
Last edited by updradedsam3000; Sep 10 2012 at 04:32 PM.
What if it'd be like Volume III, Book 5, Chapter 4: The Prince of Rohan?
I, personally, liked the way those instances were laid out, how they worked. In a word, it felt epic.
Agreed, that was done very well, and it felt good to ride alongside rohirrim to the gates of Isengard. Something like that (progression, like it was in that chapter: morning, afternoon, evening, night or whatever it was) could work well.
Originally Posted by updradedsam3000
I think the best would be, several skims that you can play solo, 3-men, fellowship and raid, at different tiers and scalable to lvl that would be awesome. Also a possibility to choose between doing separated skims or one full run.
I know it is lore breaking but it is something I can't not be a part of.
If they choose skirmish route (which would be fine by me), it should be done much like they did with Mirkwood where we invaded Dol Guldur. There was assaulting the gates, breaching the gates and finally battle in the tower (and all those skirmishes were part of the Epic) with some NPC drama in between, so if they chose to do skirmishes, that kind of thing could work well.
If WB twists the arms of Turbine's lore experts hard enough, we might end up with Helm's Derp. Allowing dale and bree men, elves, dwarves and hobbitses to tag along with the rohirrim pretty much leaves potential for limitless other changes to be made.
How about Saruman learning of the player helping with the defense (incidentally having causing some major problems in Isengard, some even having nearly killed him) and deciding to join the fight to deal with those pesky interferers personally? Oh yeah, having invented and developed gunpowder to the point of practical use, he brings in a contingent of nuruks, nuke-carrying Uruks. Lots of big pretty explosions ensue.
Then Gandalf and Erkenbrand come into the valley with 1000...foot soldiers...? BAH, NO! Make them mounted...ON EAGLES!! And good dragons.
Then Morgoth decides to escape from the void and attacks, prompting Illuvatar to order the kings and queens of the Valar to engage him and all his newly-undead-erised dragon army.
And Saruman and Gandalf have an epic wizard battle. And add more dragons.
A sensible and epic way to do it is 'group session play' -everyone is a warrior of Rohan, with different skills granted depending upon their chosen 'role'. The enormity of the task Turbine has demands another new gameplay mechanic. Nothing like war mounts or skirmish soldiers, but you'll get temporary traiting options at the start of each stage of the fight.
My 2 coppers.
Last edited by MelkorJnr; Sep 10 2012 at 08:17 AM.
I am patient with stupidity but not with those who are proud of it. — Edith Sitwell
[QUOTE=myfreezr2;6407912]Uh, question...why do you have a problem with Jackson having the elves come to the defense, but not a problem with him having Eomer instead of Erkenbrand come at the last moment?
I have a major problem with that as well, I think that Jackson missed out on a huge and very important part of the story there since Eomer and Aragorn fighting side by side to defend the gate was the foundation of a life long friendship that is described further in the appendices. That friendship was the basis for renewing the strength of the alliance between the restored Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor and Rohan. It was Eomer, Aragorn and Gimli before the gate not just Aragorn and Gimli. And there was no dwarf tossing.
I still think arriving with the relief force is a good way to be there and still offers the opening for the idea to go after Lheu Brenin and Gun Ain. I think in part the issue is that the battle itself, being a core piece of the story, has a predetermined course, the players actions cannot effect that outcome at all, it consigns the players to playing bit parts as extras. The actions of the relief force on the other hand are rather vague beyond their arriving and crushing the Uruks. What else were they doing, were there other detachments out dealing with other units. All undefined and open to the players playing important roles such as blocking dunlending reinforcements under Lheu Brenin and Gun Ain.
They sidestepped the players being unable to change main story line outcomes in the Epic line with Theodred by having the players fighting elsewhere when Theodred was mortally wounded since nothing the players could do could possibly change the result.
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Originally Posted by wachkussen
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