So, I have to say I'm intrigued by the fact that I seem to be happy about what everyone else hates, and furious about what no one seems to care about.
Firstly, the massive reduction to mitigations in OP. I see a lot of complaints about this, but I think it's a good thing. Look at it this way: We don't want to need an entire extra set of gear for dps, therefore we need the dps boost from OP to be big enough that it's viable to dps in tank gear. However, a boost this big to some one in dps gear would be to powerful, and needs to be discouraged. I don't know if the OP damage boost will be enough to accomplish this, but I have hope that it's the developer's goal.
On the other hand, I'm furious about the detaunts attached to all our skills while in OP. It destroys the ability to tank easier content with a higher dps build and it massively hampers any ability to drop out of OP and tank if the main goes down. Perhaps it's because I see the 2 second induction for OP as being analogous to a minstrel's Warspeech, and so want the same ability to drop into my primary role quickly.
If there is any time left to change mechanics, I think the best thing I could hope for would be keeping our innate aggro skills as positive threat, and sharing that bonus threat with the target of Protection by the Sword. This change would allow us to still have a sizable amount of threat halfway through a fight and we might be able to recover from the smaller threat gap in the event of an emergency. More importantly, it would allow us to tank easier content by simply not activating Protection.
I view guards as having a main role of deciding who gets aggro, usually we choose ourselves and make awesome tanks, but even in our dps-mode, it would feel more "guard-ish" to be generating threat and keeping things off the squishies. By being a targeted threat generator, a second guard in a group gets to unleash not-so-much his own dps, but that of every hunter who has ever throttled his damage to avoid pulling.
On the other hand, I'm furious about the detaunts attached to all our skills while in OP. It destroys the ability to tank easier content with a higher dps build and it massively hampers any ability to drop out of OP and tank if the main goes down.
The whole purpose of this change is not to allow DPS tanking, so not being able to tank in a high DPS build is exactly working as intended. Champs are also not able to tank in fervour in any effective way. And if the tank goes down? Challenge the mob and hit engage -> you are back in tank mode.
Not saying taking over if main tank bites the dust will be easy,
but to switch back to tankmode won't be that hard.
As soon as you deactivate (inductionless thus) OP, your aggro-
skills will revert to normal function, so Challenge+Engage/CtD
will set you back where you belong on the threatlist.
Then you'll have time to switch to Threat/Block-stance...
To me it's no biggy, whenever I'll use OP, I'll be solo or Moors...
The whole purpose of this change is not to allow DPS tanking, so not being able to tank in a high DPS build is exactly working as intended. Champs are also not able to tank in fervour in any effective way. And if the tank goes down? Challenge the mob and hit engage -> you are back in tank mode.
Well, Challenge, go through the induction to threat stance, then hit engage. Engage is a temporary perceived threat drop in OP a la beneath notice.
Yeah this look deliberate and I am wholly unsurprised. Look at Wardens and Recklessness. Well, that stance doesn't have all those built in threat drops that OP will have, but the removal of most defensive buffs and heals and all inherent threat from the Recklessness gambits has prevented Wardens from tanking in Recklessness. And really, all I hear about that is the occasional lackadaisical "Oh man, remember the days where I could tank [past raid boss] in Recklessness? Oh well."
I guess my caveat about tanking easier content was missed. There is currently plently of places where the minstrel I run with heals in warspeech to put out a bit more dps. While I'm not certain of the difference between the damage a guard and a fevour champ take, I'd be surprised if it wasn't approximatly the difference in healing between a warspeech minstrel and and a melody one.
To the other points, true, the more I think about it, retaking aggro would not be increidably difficult. Though with the ability to use a sheild, Shield smash might be a nice legendary trait to couple with TTK and Red-cap, so no CtD.
I guess mainly, I'm just jealous of the fact that it's always the mini that gets to say "Keep doing what you always do, I'm going to play around with dps".
I guess my caveat about tanking easier content was missed.
i don't think anyone missed it.
for the sake of discussion though, i think that the only difference between now and a few months from now is the lack of building extra threat in OP and less survivability.
since it is easier content, i don't think that the latter will matter much. for the former, fellowships might have to get a little creative (eg: everyone who doesn't want aggro would detaunt while the desired aggro holder doesn't)
It would be nice if the player could choose how threat is managed in OP stance.
If only one or two of our threat creating skills changed to threat reducing skills, we would have have a method to tune our threat in order to try and maintain the #2 spot in the threat table so we could switch to a tanking stance if the main tank fails.
It would be nice if the player could choose how threat is managed in OP stance.
If only one or two of our threat creating skills changed to threat reducing skills, we would have have a method to tune our threat in order to try and maintain the #2 spot in the threat table so we could switch to a tanking stance if the main tank fails.
We are tanks, let us perform our role!
Maybe i dont get it but ok.....got a guard of my own and i never use OP in a group becous we are a tank.
Why o why do you wanne do you wanne choose if you gonne get treat or reduce treat in the new OP stance when you say this...we are tanks let us perform our role......if you wanne do that that go on and tank OP if for dps not for tanking.
I think the changes are nice so far i am not botherd with the milt reduction as well becous if the TANK does his job well we would get hit. Its nice that we can finely do some nice dps i gess.
Maybe i dont get it but ok.....got a guard of my own and i never use OP in a group becous we are a tank.
Why o why do you wanne do you wanne choose if you gonne get treat or reduce treat in the new OP stance when you say this...
So that we could go OP in an off-tank role, while still maintaining a level of aggro that would allow us to become main tank if the main tank died. Simple as that, let us do DPS as an off-tank, and stay at the #2 spot in the aggro table.
So that we could go OP in an off-tank role, while still maintaining a level of aggro that would allow us to become main tank if the main tank died. Simple as that, let us do DPS as an off-tank, and stay at the #2 spot in the aggro table.
As answered previously: Engage and/or Challenge the Darkness
(You don't need to maintain any level of threat, we have threat copy skills. You can be AFK in OP, come back to find a defeated tank, drop OP and instantly have threat, not even down in the #2 spot.)
"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
As answered previously: Engage and/or Challenge the Darkness
(You don't need to maintain any level of threat, we have threat copy skills. You can be AFK in OP, come back to find a defeated tank, drop OP and instantly have threat, not even down in the #2 spot.)
^ This.
And let's not get confused here. There is no induction to Threat Stance. If you're interested in being able to switch to tanking in a snap you can trait for it.
Firstly, the massive reduction to mitigations in OP. I see a lot of complaints about this, but I think it's a good thing. Look at it this way: We don't want to need an entire extra set of gear for dps, therefore we need the dps boost from OP to be big enough that it's viable to dps in tank gear. However, a boost this big to some one in dps gear would be to powerful, and needs to be discouraged.
Why do you expect to be able to DPS properly with tank gear? Do you think the couple of bleeds and critical multipliers are going to double or triple your DPS in tank gear? How much crit does an average guard in a tank setup have to even benefit from the high critical multipliers?
One still has to put effort in DPS gear if they want to DPS. You still need to pump all into might, crit and agility to DPS. This is not a free ride, even after all the penalties.
A lot of people seem to think that Challenge/CtD + Engage is the answer to all threat issues, it's a skill that can miss and if it does a Guardian switching from overpower to a tank stance only has taunts (that can miss/be resisted as well) to hold aggro for the coming minute when cooldown on Engage is gone.
With all the threat reduction skills in overpower a Guardian switching to a tank stance cannot ever hope to over aggro a hunter or champion if Engage miss and this dependecy on one single skill is something I don't really like.
However this is perhaps not such a big problem since Champions can tank most things very well, even in fervour stance.
You get what you asked for. Personally I'm very excited to try something new. I mostly solo these days, have little to no content. As a result my guardian had to learn how to use Overpower effectively to increase leveling speed, so I'm a fan of this stance. Currently enjoying a hybrid build with pretty decent DPS and good defences. The proposed changes look quite interesting :3
Pros
- Improved Sweeping Cut can place a bleed on many targets. Eliminates the need to apply Thrust to several mobs.
- Improved Shield Swipe. People would rather see it hitting multiple enemies, but more threat is always nice when tanking.
- Improved Thrust becomes a stronger bleed. Great. Unfortunately, the Salt the Wound bleed seems to be unaffected.
- Switching to a shield in Overpower helps to survive longer.
- No power cost penalty in Overpower. Finally, I've sacrificed too much to get high ICPR which sometimes still does nothing. The question is what the '-% Overpower Power Cost' legacy on my 2H will turn into.
- +50% critical damage magnitude. Allows for awesome spike damage if you stack critical rating, which most OP guardians'll do if the update goes live.
- Improved Whirling Retaliation can salt all Sweeping Cut bleeds at once. Excellent.
- Catch a Breath is available after parrying and restores power. Yes, please. Solves some power issues, though the skill might retain its power cost.
- Warrior's Fortitude morale buffs are weakened. On the other hand, heals and stance-based buffs still apply and there's more physical mastery. Not that bad.
- Detaunts in Overpower. Magnificent for group DPS. Though there's a small problem, in skirmishes I still need to hold aggro off my herbalist. Perhaps I'll change my soldier.
- Protection by the Sword. We're getting more and more self-buff skills, and there's a group buff. So are we going to become champions or captains, or something else? :P Anyhow, it's welcome, especially if the guardian gets the buff too. Sadly, most of our defensive self-buffs are gone in Overpower.
- Force Opening gives a guaranteed parry event. Brilliant. With the trait I can then have a free parry event every 15 sec without wasting much power.
- Brutal Assault bleed applying 100% of the time is a long-waited improvement. Additional bleeds sound good, we can stack 4 bleeds on a target. The ticking speed reduction is okay, but in order to retain the DPS its duration should be doubled. Otherwise it's a DPS nerf.
Contradictions
- Guardian's Ward Tactics finesse and melee damage buff in Overpower. Now the '+ Guardian's Ward Duration' legacy becomes more useful. But the skill shouldn't lose its defensive bonuses. Reduce them instead.
- Guardian's Pledge melee damage buff in Overpower. Allows for even greater spike damage assuming criticals land. And oops, the BPE is completely gone, so almost no panic buttons except Warrior's Fortitude, unlike that of other DPS classes. I think If the skill could give just +5-15% total BPE in any form it would be balanced.
Cons
--30% armour and mitigations ratings in Overpower. The only major nerf. Thankfully, it doesn't mean -30% real mitigations, more likely -5-20%, because mitigations gained from might and vitality are unaffected. I have about 45% tactical mitigation (7,5k) in Overpower without Guardian's Ward Tactics, mainly from vitality, so I expect to lose a maximum of 20% mitigations. That leaves me with 25% tactical mitigation. Fragile, yes, but not squishy. Will stack a bit more vitality if needed.
Overall, it seems all right. After RoR launch I'll test several builds, including glass cannon and Overpower sword'n'board, to understand which suites me better. Thank you Graalx2 for listening to us and at least trying to make us viable as DPS without much nerfing.
A lot of people seem to think that Challenge/CtD + Engage is the answer to all threat issues, it's a skill that can miss and if it does a Guardian switching from overpower to a tank stance only has taunts (that can miss/be resisted as well) to hold aggro for the coming minute when cooldown on Engage is gone.
With all the threat reduction skills in overpower a Guardian switching to a tank stance cannot ever hope to over aggro a hunter or champion if Engage miss and this dependecy on one single skill is something I don't really like.
However this is perhaps not such a big problem since Champions can tank most things very well, even in fervour stance.
hehe this one made my day Exactly why I rolled a guard :P To do dps and let the champion tank the mobs since we can't out-aggro em anymore :P just says it all imo
A lot of people seem to think that Challenge/CtD + Engage is the answer to all threat issues, it's a skill that can miss and if it does a Guardian switching from overpower to a tank stance only has taunts (that can miss/be resisted as well) to hold aggro for the coming minute when cooldown on Engage is gone.
I don't see anyone saying they are the answer to all threat issues.
Threat copies (I'm just going to ignore Challenge in there) are just one possible way we can slide into the MT role should the MT go down. As you said, Engage can miss which means something else has to be done at that point. Personally I'd rather Engage's threat-copy component never miss since it's relied upon so heavily for key mechanics in boss fights. Alas, that's not the case.
Regardless, I don't think this is a particularly big deal here; we're talking about something which shouldn't happen in the first place (MT going down). Having to deal with a miss on top of that (and miss rate can be minimized to a degree with agility) isn't too far fetched.
More often than not good groups will be able to adapt and overcome. It should take teamwork to defeat an encounter. It should take even more to recover from a mistake in one.
Interestingly, the S&B OP guardian will be lower on the threat table than the 2-hander OP guardian who stays away from skills with an additional threat component, like VB, etc. But perhaps that's part of the price of increased survivability while in OP. If you're really worried about detaunts, grab a 2-hander and stay away from such skills. It seems to me, though, the real issue is the reliability of the threat copies, not the level of threat we have in OP stance.
*EDIT: Yes, a S&B OP guard could also avoid such skills to help retain a higher level of threat but I'm assuming they're using their shield here no only for the extra protection but also for the shield skills. We do have that choice, though.
I wonder if WR still has a threat transfer or if they reversed it's direction...? It's not like other skills which inherently generate more threat themselves, so I'm guessing that mechanic has not changed.
Overpower Stance changes We have removed the de-taunts on all skills whose primary focus is damage. These skills still won't have the any extra threat, but they will gain full threat from the damage that they do. Skills whose primary focus is threat will still function as de-taunts (Shield Taunt, Engage, Fray the Edge and Litany of Defiance) except for Challenge and legendary skills. Challenge and all legendary skills function as they currently do in Guardian's Defence.
Overpower Stance changes We have removed the de-taunts on all skills whose primary focus is damage. These skills still won't have the any extra threat, but they will gain full threat from the damage that they do. Skills whose primary focus is threat will still function as de-taunts (Shield Taunt, Engage, Fray the Edge and Litany of Defiance) except for Challenge and legendary skills. Challenge and all legendary skills function as they currently do in Guardian's Defence.
Will Litany Master-enhanced skills still proc a ToT when in OP?
Is Whirling Retaliation's threat transfer unchanged in OP?
Are these four skills (Shield Taunt, Engage, Fray the Edge and Litany of Defiance) the only ones that function as de-taunts in OP?
Will Litany Master-enhanced skills still proc a ToT when in OP?
Is Whirling Retaliation's threat transfer unchanged in OP?
Are these four skills (Shield Taunt, Engage, Fray the Edge and Litany of Defiance) the only ones that function as de-taunts in OP?
1. They still do but this is a bug as far as the original intent goes. I could see leaving it in as I doubt that anyone with Litany Master slotted is looking to take a DPS slot. What do y'all think?
2. Whirling Retaliation does not do a threat transfer in Overpower stance.
3. That's the theory.
1. They still do but this is a bug as far as the original intent goes. I could see leaving it in as I doubt that anyone with Litany Master slotted is looking to take a DPS slot. What do y'all think?
While you're right that no one looking to be a dps spot ought trait litany master, what about times when 2 tanks are in an instance for tanking, but one is asked to swap to dps for a given fight or pull? Not really a game breaker either way, but the stance (OP) should function the way it is intended even with non-standard traiting.
1. They still do but this is a bug as far as the original intent goes. I could see leaving it in as I doubt that anyone with Litany Master slotted is looking to take a DPS slot. What do y'all think?
I could see this going either way. Leaving it in is probably fine since that's what happens today.
The guard would be LM-traited running in OP. In raids this might happen more than you'd expect since some encounters found within will require one dedicated tank and others will require two; the group is stuck switching back and forth as the night progresses. So when gearing down to one tank the other will likely just jump into OP without retraiting to save everyone time.
I'd expect the MT would still out-threat the OP guard so this is probably a non-issue, but figured it'd be worth checking on in case this was not intended. Since LoD turned into a -ToT perhaps that was also the intended behavior for LM ToTs under the new OP?
I'd expect the MT would still out-threat the OP guard so this is probably a non-issue, but figured it'd be worth checking on in case this was not intended.
An LM traited OP guard won't be getting the added critical multipliers from red traits. They won't be getting additional aggro from skills with aggro component (like they do now). Even if they do get the ToT running, they are absolutely not going to over aggro anyone.
An LM traited OP guard won't be getting the added critical multipliers from red traits. They won't be getting additional aggro from skills with aggro component (like they do now). Even if they do get the ToT running, they are absolutely not going to over aggro anyone.
Right. On this point we are in "violent agreement."
I just wanted to check the gameplay was as Turbine intended.
Overpower Stance changes We have removed the de-taunts on all skills whose primary focus is damage. These skills still won't have the any extra threat, but they will gain full threat from the damage that they do. Skills whose primary focus is threat will still function as de-taunts (Shield Taunt, Engage, Fray the Edge and Litany of Defiance) except for Challenge and legendary skills. Challenge and all legendary skills function as they currently do in Guardian's Defence.
Excellent changes Graal! Thank you for listening and making these changes
While you're right that no one looking to be a dps spot ought trait litany master, what about times when 2 tanks are in an instance for tanking, but one is asked to swap to dps for a given fight or pull? Not really a game breaker either way, but the stance (OP) should function the way it is intended even with non-standard traiting.
Actually, I'm quite torn on the last sentence.
On the one hand: Yes, if the stance says we're supposed to function one way then all skills should work that way. The given example scenario is common enough in raids (needing two tanks for trash pulls but the boss can be solo-tanked) to be a very valid concern.
On the other hand: If you trait for increased threat on a specific skill, then that's how you're supposed to work as well! Making all behaviour stance-specific is a bit too much like "I have these three skills that allow me to swap between pre-configured trait set-ups."
After some mind bending I think the proper way to go is to either disable the ToT (probably the easiest way to solve it) or turn it into a "de-taunt over time". Let the intended function of the stance rule.
1. They still do but this is a bug as far as the original intent goes. I could see leaving it in as I doubt that anyone with Litany Master slotted is looking to take a DPS slot. What do y'all think?
My vote? Leave it.
- it provides flexibility for players to trait in non-standard ways
- it encourages game play, possibly requiring use of de-taunt skills
- avoid introducing new game mechanic to explain to players
- if there's good reason to introduce a new game mechanic, threat reduction over time, it can be introduced in the future; whereas if there were a desire to undo it, removing something is far more upsetting and has PR consequences
- it costs less developmentally to keep as is
- it minimizes future maintenance/balancing
- reducing threat over time is kind of moot, it can be achieved by just not attacking (as others' threat builds past), which is essentially the same effect albeit slower
"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
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Originally Posted by Flying_Penguin
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