Thread: Boost to OP guards threatening champs?

Now, as many will probably notice, the title is the exact opposite of this:
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ning-Guardians

guards whined about our glory boost, now we get to whine about their OP boost!
mainly about this part:
"We feel that these changes will allow a Guardian to do almost as much damage as the Champion/Hunter/Runekeeper in DPS stance and, more importantly, be able to maintain it."

k, fellow champs, whine!

(note that is mainly for fun purposes. I don't actually mind their boost much. although, if someone actually has something to say about it, go ahead... champ discussions are always fun to watch >__>)

It looks like champ's and guard's boost are meant to... well... compliment (sp?) each other?

Like... yeah, you champ have more threath ... you guard have more dps :P

Well, with the current changes it seems they've made:

Champs DPS still very good.
Champs Tanking better but still lacking in crit defence and morale compared to a guard.

Guard Tanking still very good.
Guard DPS now equal to a champ and still with 1:5 vit:morale and avoidances but with a big nerf to mitigations to compensate.

They seem to be the mirror images of each other, which isn't too bad a design but it does make them seem pointless.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

They seem to be the mirror images of each other, which isn't too bad a design but it does make them seem pointless.

indeed, that part I agree on. a few more steps down the road and we'll become one class... (shing shing with a shield anyone?)

still, though, at the moment the optimal group setting is with guards tanking and champs DPSing (I myself would much rather have that unchanged)

I don't see where it says "guardians now can shing shing".

Originally Posted by vanderllay

I don't see where it says "guardians now can shing shing".

They could always shing shing. I think they have about 2 AOE damage skills.

The homogenization of classes in the game is mostly the fault of the player base. One class will complain another class can do this or that ... this class will think they should be able to do something another class can do. In the end, the balancing of specs caused classes to lose their unique roles. In SoA, it will clear cut what classes did best ... there was no fine line. Slowly, we have had a lot of bleed through because Tank Class A wants a spec to DPS as well as DPS Class B can tank but in the end we get an imbalance and utter loss of class cohesion. The community turns on each other, MIN/MAXing and elitist comes out in droves and the game is not improved.

A class-based game should have its clear lines. But when those lines get blurred, this is the problem that comes from it. D&D 3.5a is a good example for a class system to follow ...

But players in general feel entitled so they want their cake and to eat it too ...

*shrugs*

We're still the only Champions.

I was very satisfied with the changes for champs and I dont mind that guards get a better dps stance as well.

My champ is still my only character at lvl 75 and when content at end game lvl got a little thin for me, i was wondering what class i should roll next. I rather focus on a mob than on my fellowship, so i wanted to try tanking. Before lvling a guard or warden to lvl 75, i thought, I try building my champ up for tanking and I was surprised, how easily you could become a decent main tank.

My tanking built isnt nearly as good as my dps built (and that one isnt perfect either) but I am able to main tank isengard 6 mans on t2 or take on a giant on in f&f on t1 (and that better than a guard, in my opinion but thats not the topic here).

And there is still so much potential to improve my stats for tanking that I am sure, that if you are properly geared, capped on mitigations and sit on a little more than 20k morale buffed ( which is possible as champ) you can actually tank alot more than just that.

That of course, depends also on your general ability as player and that of your fellowship and especially how good they know how chanking works. I think the only area where we were lacking is crit defense, initial aoe thread generation and maybe regaining thread, if you lose it when trying to control multiple mobs.

The new Horn Skill and inflated bubbles will give us better aggro control and survivability and I also still have my hopes up, that there will be some lvl 85 tanking gear with some crit defense on it. So I think, at lvl 85, you can be become one of the top 10% tanks on your server. That of course, will take alot of time and effort, as you will be needing the best gear and it will be a mayor grind for it. As most champs will start working on better dps equipment first and then work on their tanking built, if at all, Guards propably have a head start in aquiring better tanking gear, as they usually start with that.

The same propably goes for guards the other way around with the more dps focussed OP Stance.
I dont think one class will actually make the other one obsolete, even though their potential as an end game dps- or tanking role will get closer together.

In my opinion, the changes for both classes makes them more versatile at end game and therefore way more interesting. Because it gives us the opportunity to enjoy a different kind of gameplay without having to lvl up another character to lvl 85.

Originally Posted by warriorpoetex

The homogenization of classes in the game is mostly the fault of the player base. One class will complain another class can do this or that ... this class will think they should be able to do something another class can do. In the end, the balancing of specs caused classes to lose their unique roles.

Excellent summary of the fundamental problems developers create when they drop their original vision of how their game was going to be in the face of lakes of tears from the QQers.

Originally Posted by BliBlaBloin

In my opinion, the changes for both classes makes them more versatile at end game and therefore way more interesting. Because it gives us the opportunity to enjoy a different kind of gameplay without having to lvl up another character to lvl 85.

But players such as some of those posting on this subject in various forums aren't interested in 'flexibility', they want their guaranteed raid slot based on their oh-so-special-must-have-skills, a slot they feel in fear of losing if they're no longer the special snowflake they like to think they are.

The best example of this was seen on the WOW forums some years ago when Blizzard came out with their "bring the player not the class" strategy, the floods of tears that produced was wonderful to behold.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

They could always shing shing. I think they have about 2 AOE damage skills.

3: Vexing Blow, Sweeping Cut, Whirling Retaliation. With these three skills alone a well-geared OP guard can put out 2-3k DPS in AoE pulls. RoR is going to see a bleed added to Sweeping Cut that can be ramped up with Whirling. Vexing will be a de-taunt and Whirling will be a threat-down. That, plus 50% crit multiplier on all those AoE's, is going to be a serious bump in guardian AoE dps potential.

Originally Posted by warriorpoetex

The homogenization of classes in the game is mostly the fault of the player base. One class will complain another class can do this or that ... this class will think they should be able to do something another class can do. In the end, the balancing of specs caused classes to lose their unique roles. In SoA, it will clear cut what classes did best ... there was no fine line. Slowly, we have had a lot of bleed through because Tank Class A wants a spec to DPS as well as DPS Class B can tank but in the end we get an imbalance and utter loss of class cohesion. The community turns on each other, MIN/MAXing and elitist comes out in droves and the game is not improved.

A class-based game should have its clear lines. Everything those lines get blurred, this is the problem that comes from it. D&D 3.5a is a good example for a class system to follow ...

But players in general feel entitled so they want their cake and to eat it too ...

i agree

Originally Posted by Gylve

3: Vexing Blow, Sweeping Cut, Whirling Retaliation. With these three skills alone a well-geared OP guard can put out 2-3k DPS in AoE pulls. RoR is going to see a bleed added to Sweeping Cut that can be ramped up with Whirling. Vexing will be a de-taunt and Whirling will be a threat-down. That, plus 50% crit multiplier on all those AoE's, is going to be a serious bump in guardian AoE dps potential.

Ah, yeah forgot the Vexing Blow one. I'm terrible with names of skills so I just tried to remember roughly what the icons looked like and where they are on my toolbar

I'm a Champ, I don't feel threatened by anyone's DPS.

Next topic pls.

I think they're going to be viable single target DPS now, which should allow guards that bother to gear for it to do alright on boss fights rather than feeling guilty about wasting a DPS spot, but I do think that we should be slightly worried about their AoE potential. That said, the number of guards that actually gear out correctly for OP is probably going to be about the same as the number of champs that bother to gear up for serious Glory tanking (i.e. hardly any).

Originally Posted by Vodomir

I'm a Champ, I don't feel threatened by anyone's DPS.

Next topic pls.

best answer so far!
I guess you're right... besides, nothing will ever come close to the pure awesomeness (is that a real word?) of shing-shing.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

I'm a Champ, I don't feel threatened by anyone's DPS.

Next topic pls.

Altough i feel the same - dont really care what they do to other classes dps -l i have to confess my DPS feels threaten by Dev's "creativity" on our class.
I dont remember having any developer working on champs that really understands what a champ means and just mess around with the class to patch ovehaul game unbalances and game classes contradictions (PvE vs PVP)

Edit: clarifying

Originally Posted by Kaldenas

Now, as many will probably notice, the title is the exact opposite of this:
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ning-Guardians

guards whined about our glory boost, now we get to whine about their OP boost!
mainly about this part:
"We feel that these changes will allow a Guardian to do almost as much damage as the Champion/Hunter/Runekeeper in DPS stance and, more importantly, be able to maintain it."

k, fellow champs, whine!

(note that is mainly for fun purposes. I don't actually mind their boost much. although, if someone actually has something to say about it, go ahead... champ discussions are always fun to watch >__>)

The key word in the Guardian's Dev diary is "almost"... as in "ALMOST as much damage"

al·most/ôlˈmōst/
Adverb:
Not quite; very nearly: "he almost knocked Georgina over".

Yeah, but what does that even mean? The devs have stated intent before (such as burgs never being able to out-DPS primary DPS classes) but sometimes that intent kind of gets thrown out the window in reality. Class mechanics and efficacy have got to be ludicrously hard to quantify without knowing how people will gear, how different skill use/rotations will be used to greater effect than estimated, how different raid buffs and encounters might favor certain classes over others in unintended ways, etc.

I'd say the now-rescinded zero-fervour Remorseless set bonus even making it to the stage of being in a dev diary is a clear example of how sometimes things that look neat on paper can cause really serious balance issues, and of course with changes this substantial to the guard DPS line I think it's a very real possibility that things might not end up as intended (not *just* that they'll be doing way too much DPS, but also the possibility that the boost isn't enough and guards are still &&&& single-target DPS).

Sounds like if either champs or guardians play their main roles,they will still be better.

If a champ dps, he will be better than if guard dps.
If a guard tanks, he will be better than it champ tanks.

More power to guards.

On a related topic, I feel bad for my guard buddy who hadn't seen hardly any love on their main role: tanking. In my opinion guards should have a more active role ok holding aggro than relying on dps classes to hold back/use aggro reduction skills.
just look at the fact both hunters and champs have yet another aggro reduction skill and guard gets a &&&&&& threat increase on one skill for their ” revamp”.

Originally Posted by warriorpoetex

A class-based game should have its clear lines. But when those lines get blurred, this is the problem that comes from it. D&D 3.5a is a good example for a class system to follow ...

I completely agree. Tanks tank, DPS dps, RDPS, rdps, etc. As soon as you get "You're a dps, who can tank a bit too" or more recently "You're a healer, who can dps too. And also tank a bit". Or even "You're a warden who can.. Well".

The Classes used to be more fun in SoA when you really needed someone to fill a certain roll. If you didn't have dedicated dps you'd struggle, same with tanks, heals etc.

Obviously AoE dps will still be dominated by champ and tanking by guard (to an extent), but the grey areas in between are starting to become so big they're infringing on the black and white.

Regardless of gameplay elements though, no other class will ever be as cool as the Champion.

I mean, it's called the Champion.

I see no problems with this. You'll be able to have more guardians on the quick easier runs, but they still shouldn't displace champs in the melee dps role.

Most serious guardians will be geared for tanking anyway. Only a few will outfit themselves as end-game dps kings like the champs on our forum, and they won't do as much dps as our best champs.

This will allow guardians to solo more easily and to fill in the "4/6 foundry need any" role more easily (usually a tank isn't the best in that role).

Originally Posted by Kaldenas

guards whined about our glory boost, now we get to whine about their OP boost!
mainly about this part:
"We feel that these changes will allow a Guardian to do almost as much damage as the Champion/Hunter/Runekeeper in DPS stance and, more importantly, be able to maintain it."

A large part of a Guardian's OP DPS comes from skills that are only available when they parry. Solo and in the Moors, they'll get plenty of Parrys and it wouldn't surprise me given the changes if the DPS is similar to the other DPS classes. But in a group with someone else tanking, the amount of Parries will be greatly reduced, and as such, the DPS will drop as well. It should still be high enough to fill a missing slot in a group, but any group looking for high DPS output is still going to prefer a Champion to a Guardian.

Another nice thing about this is that it will give undergeard guardians something to do in groups who don't want a 8k morale main tank.

Guardians felt that champs stepped on their toes a bit with the improvements to champ tanking so it's not surprising that champs feel the same way now. Personally I have 0 experience with ToO, but how often do groups take champs to tank bosses? It could be a case where a low % of champs tank end game raids and there may be the same low % of guards that will play a dps role in a raid.

I'm lucky enough to have levelled every class so if one ends up being underwhelming, I can switch to something that's a bit more productive.

I will be very interested in seeing how this works out. As Gylve pointed out, sometimes things don't work out the way the devs plan...

Originally Posted by nelar

A large part of a Guardian's OP DPS comes from skills that are only available when they parry. Solo and in the Moors, they'll get plenty of Parrys and it wouldn't surprise me given the changes if the DPS is similar to the other DPS classes. But in a group with someone else tanking, the amount of Parries will be greatly reduced, and as such, the DPS will drop as well. It should still be high enough to fill a missing slot in a group, but any group looking for high DPS output is still going to prefer a Champion to a Guardian.

Protection By the Sword

A GRD wanting to do serious CMP-level DPS is going to have to gear for it, meaning all-might and melee offence/crit. That effectively means two entire sets of gear for those who also expect ever to tank anything. Most won't bother. And ironically the GRDs best placed to get such gear - the ones running a lot of raids and instances - are likely to be the ones their kin expects to be tanking. GRDs who solo and don't ever tank won't be taking instance spots from a CMP anyway.

Originally Posted by warriorpoetex

A class-based game should have its clear lines. But when those lines get blurred, this is the problem that comes from it. D&D 3.5a is a good example for a class system to follow ...

But players in general feel entitled so they want their cake and to eat it too ...

I am glad you brought up 3.5 D&D because it's a great way to show how messed up MMO gamer's view of class uniqueness is. Compare a 3.5 fighter to a barbarian, how did they make one class unique from the other? Did they force them into separate, arbitrary group "roles"to make people think they were playing different classes? No, they gave them unique abilities so that playing a barbarian "felt"different from playing a fighter. Barbarians had inherent damage reduction so they could shrug off light blows, and had rage so they had those moments where they could go hulk and tear stuff up. Fighters, on the other hand got a huge number of feats' making them far more versitile than a barbarian.

You can make other comparisons too. Wizards and sorcs are unique because of their differences in acquiring spells and casting, not because one is "DPS" and one is"utility." This is how any good game approaches class design, but suddenly itt all goes out the window when talk king about MMOs. Classes suddenly aren't unique based on how they play or hoe they interact with the game, but because they are "tanks'" or "healers" or DPS." What you are describing isn't 3.5 D&D, it's 4th.

OP stance Guardians and champions still feel like unique experiences, alll this update will do is improve the viability of OP stance. That is an entirely different matter than classes feeling unique from one another.



Sorry about the typos at the end. Typing this on an old I touch and it doesn't like our posting interface.

Originally Posted by VentoPT

Altough i feel the same - dont really care what they do to other classes dps -l i have to confess my DPS feels threaten by Dev's "creativity" on our class.
I dont remember having any developer working on champs that really understands what a champ means and just mess around with the class to patch ovehaul game unbalances and game classes contradictions (PvE vs PVP)

Edit: clarifying

I'm confused by this post, since both fervour and glory champs are currently enjoying very healthy success in PvE and PvP.

A guard out-dpsing me? I'll believe it if I see it, lol.

Boost to champions survivability threatening guardians tanking?

wat do?