Normally I wont flame, but it's not flaming if it's the truth: Dumb remark in yellow.
Tanks have good defenses sure, but a guard in OP is not a tank, and doesn't have the mitigations of a tank, nor even the best defenses in full dps compared to other classes similarly setup.
I'm starting a count of how many times I have to point that out, this is number 3.
I would have to agree with the above poster when he suggests you actually READ the post I made but I can make it easier for you sure ok.
First Guardians are the go to class for tanking and supreme defense in this game. It is what the class excels at it what they need to fill their primary role as SPECIALIZED DEFENSE, their class strength per say. Now if you want to deviate from that primary role to preform in a DPS role there will be sacrifices of defense ( ie. mitigations, resitance, and armour rating) that are quite logical considering that it is the exact opposite of the Guardians primary class strength. Once again i ask " Would you take your taxes to a Veterinarian ?" ( sorry i guess maybe a bad joke but you get the point).
As well as my thanking of the developer because he found a way to give the people that begged for more dmg and a shield in OP (both of which were asked for many times) exactly what they wanted WITHOUT either making the class completely overpowered in comparison or destroying the rest of the class that has been built already. A lot of people are quick to condemn but they haven't even tried the new setup.
For me personally I have used OP stance to speed lvl as to me that is its intended use and the update will not change much about the way I tank.
the proposed changes will completely kill off the moors guardian, which is already an endangered species.
indeed.
Originally Posted by Saelyth
I'm sorry but i usually hits for 3k AoEs with sweeping cut and whirlwind. at this point if there is not an uber champion and i hit a group. All the agro is mine (unless the guardian is really really good). Our DPS is a 70% of what a champ dps does if you maxed it, wich i guess u didn't focus in OP as much as i did.
A Guard will never out-dps a good (!) Champion.
Originally Posted by Pellwen
are the only moors guardians out there ONLY using OP?
I'm certainly not gonna shield-wall the healer and go afk/follow... I play the game to play, not to be the healer's morale pool...
Originally Posted by Nicodemus.....J3
You can have a shield in OP, why would you lose the ability to block?
Then make these debuffs only apply when we use a shield. I could live with that, because I WON'T use a shield in OP, when I go OP I go all-out dps, meaning 2-hander.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
They gave Guards the ability to DPS just as well as a champ. Did you really think they wouldn't nerf something else with it to make it fair? You can't have a Guard who can tank better than champs also be able to DPS equal to champs but with more defenses. They nerfed armour and mitigations in DPS mode to counter the higher morale, higher avoidances and now equal DPS.
Seeing as the Champ is currently THE OP class in the Moors (next to the minnie) you shouldn't really argue here about how Guards might threaten Champs if they don't nerf us... they nerfed us enough with Isengard, another nerf is too much...
Originally Posted by Leonide
Thats the proverbial «careful with what you ask for...» again and again.
Guards asked for «more deepeeess». People like me said : «Careful with that, you can't never know what your dev would do with that..»
Then the guard dev gave your more DPS. Of course, if you have a damage outpout close to a RK or a hunter, he /needs/ to take something away because hunters DPS + guards mits/survival skills/avoidances = Destroyer (or a champ, hehe). So there you go -30% mitigations, which makes you close to a hunter mitigations (30-40%), which is somehow balanced.
Of course, I can understand why guards are complaining, because they arent suppsoed to be paper DPS, even with OP. I can understand why guards who used to off-tank with OP are complaining.
nobody asked for this. Also you can't compare a Guard to a Hunter or RK... the Guard is a MELEE class, we stand right in front of our opponent where he can easily hit us... we don't have 40m range like a Hunter or can kite the mob like a RK, we NEED the extra survivability, because we are in the face of the opponent all the time!
Originally Posted by Mysterion
The sky is not falling, you can't expect to build for DPS and still be a 70% mitigation tank. At least guards will have the option to have a shield to be a little more sturdy while DPS'ing.
Not this again... we DON'T have 70% mits in OP, when a Guard gears for DPS he has the same mits as a Champ with DPS gear, because we don't have any extra mits, we just have the mits our gear gives us... why do you people so conveniently ignore that all the time in your stupid arguments...
Originally Posted by Mysterion
I'm glad OP tanking will not be viable, tanking in a DPS stance should not be viable for any class.
oh right, as if a Champ couldn't tank most 3- and 6-man content in DPS-setup atm...
Originally Posted by Grusk
Tanks have good defenses sure, but a guard in OP is not a tank, and doesn't have the mitigations of a tank, nor even the best defenses in full dps compared to other classes similarly setup.
I'm starting a count of how many times I have to point that out, this is number 3.
This, again.^^
Originally Posted by ROCOMAN
You might want to read his quote again instead of taking a small portion of his quote and disagreeing.
To be more clear... you have seen a guard survive for over a minute with 6 MELEE DAMAGE creeps on him. If these were wargs, there would be no way. With warg damage bypassing b/p/e the situation you described is not the norm in the moors.
Warg damage is always melee, regardless of the type.
In reference to the OP, I agree that going full glass cannon with guard DPS is a little wacky, but I withhold judgement until I've played it.
Borken - Dwarrowdelf
Alphbork - Firefoot
Pineapplejuice - E
How will these changes kill off guards in the Moors? They will still have a 150% sprint for 17s to be cowards.
Says Mr. Defiler Dying Rage.
Anyways - I completely agree we should lower mits in favour of more DPS in OP. What I DON'T like is losing Pledge's BEP (our only survival skill - sprint is not). We might as well be melee hunters.
Ok I read almost everything everyone said and nobody said a word about the change in PBTS (protection by the sword). Now when it was updated it was 'holy &&&& +2%' which is an extremely nice free buff for us in OP, tanking/offtank/straight dps aside. Now with it you not only give them 2%, but you also get their parries (which doesn't really do much if it's on, say, a champ who isn't MT) and if you have Parry Power traited, you'll get power from their parries as well, which again isn't a huge deal, but if you were to slap it on the MT, you only get benefits from it, since before it did nothing.
With RoR we're changing +2% dps to a single person into +2% for your (half) of the raid. That might not be a reveal weakness 10%, but that's a really nice damage increase for your half of the group that's free, it doesn't require traits or legacies or anything.
The new bleeds will be hella good in the moors against a craid just for being an easy 2 skill aoe spam. That's useful in a dps mode in a 6man or 3man. It's not as useful on single bosses, but it looks like it will stack with both the actual thrust/salt and BA. We're losing a lot of stuff, esp aggro, in OP, but the PBTS change is pretty damn nice no matter what your group will be/is doing.
Dorfs Gotta Dorf
A Dorf A Day
1 Dorf 2 Dorf Red Dorf Blue.....*wanders off afters shinies*
The title of this thread is "Turning the Guardian class into a non-viable class in OP stance."
Having actually played my guard in RoR beta, I can assure everyone that the new OP stance is absolutely viable for soloing. In fact, it's better than ever. Power consumption issues--gone! Able to use your shield and those shield-dps skills that any true guardian must love--yes! More damage, to make those interminable "kill ten rats" quests go a little bit faster--check! True, I'm not as sturdy in OP stance as I used to be, but I'm still sturdier than I need to be for most encounters, and if a particular encounter goes poorly I switch to block stance (easy because MY SHIELD IS ALREADY EQUIPPED!) and take 'em down slowly but surely.
I see no reason why OP stance will not be viable for group play when you don't need to tank. DPS is better than before, power consumption is not a problem, you won't steal aggro, and if you need to off-tank for a particular fight, switch into a tanking stance.
OP stance probably is no longer viable for tanking. I don't believe that OP stance was created for tanking, and I don't feel I need to have three tanking stances. Block and threat are fine for me; plus, tanking without a shield just doesn't feel guardian-ish to me. I appreciate that some people like to tank in OP and take pride in it, but I expect that if you polled all guardians who do PvE (not just the few who speak up in forums), a solid majority would support the changes. I expect that for most guards, improved soloing and improved grouping-but-not-tanking are well worth the loss of OP tanking.
This leaves...PvP. I don't play in the Moors but there are plenty of reports from those who do that the changes render OP stance non-viable there. It also seems that OP became the one-and-only stance for the Moors guard. If all that's true, then undoubtedly, the benefits bestowed on PvE players have come at the expense of PvP players. However, it sounds to me like the Moors were fundamentally broken for guards, and that ought to be fixed so that Moors guards don't need a dedicated Moors stance. Alternatively, keep the new OP stance for PvE and create a new Moors stance so that everyone wins.
I don't want guards who live for PvP to be shut out of the Moors. I also don't want guards who are leveling up to have to crawl along (zero to 85 is going to be a long slog, people), and I don't want guards at level cap to have nothing useful or fun to do in PvE when not needed to tank.
Last edited by Samsgaard; Aug 10 2012 at 04:57 PM.
I believe you that the dps increase vs (greater) mitigations decrease wont matter for landscape pve'ing in OP. Faster is better in content that is trivial even with the reduction in mits (which in the case of 95% of landscape incoming damage require common mitigation).
I am more cautiously optimistic when it comes to considering most group/raid pve, because primarily I believe there will be zero concern of pulling aggro as an OP guard with the changes. But of course not all damage hits people with aggro, so the OP guard brings to the table 'perhaps' the dps of a champ, with no power concerns and an extra debuff in the shape of stagger, for the trade of being at greater risk of dying than a champ or capt (perhaps not vs a hunter).
However, and this is a big however; MASSIVE even: Tactical mitigation situations will kill OP guards off. Tact mit is entirely possible for the tanking guard to cap (even over by quite a ways), but the OP guard in full dps (as the stance is for) has little room for vit and whilst it can pack virtues, possibly specific armour pieces, and even stoic for tact mit, it's base rating will still be similar to those of most every other class in the same circumstance. This means that both champs and capts in their full dps setups can have (nearly) the mitigation level the guard has before the -30% kicks in and nerfs them into the ground.
The new OP induction animation should be beating yourself with a nerf bat.
Self-quoting and double post, because I need to revise this. We half lose the niche of being so mobile in RoR also, because it half relies on having longer reach than the other melee we need to compete with, as well as having greater run speed with a 5% trait and ttk run buff. In RoR however; the reach aspect gets copied to champs, so I'm serious struggling to find a reason anyone would play a guard in the moors once Rohan hits.
- “Combat Effect Duration” Legacy has been replaced with “+Targeted Melee Range” Legacy.
I'm done posting my outrage over the changes to the forums, but I suggest that those who feel strongly about them keep up the rational arguments if you've hope left. I said to friends that the only way I'd be playing rohan was if some serious improvements were made for guard moors play, and it stands to get worse. The beta forums had objections to the mitigation reduction etc for quite some time before the diary went out, but it seems to be going ahead.
why don't you save the doom and gloom until you at least try the new revisions ? If you take the time to figure everything out on paper its not near as bad as everyone makes it sound.
Respecting challenge, ALL AGGRO SKILLS turns into DE-AGGRO SKILL.
And this changes has been TESTED in the beta. Now are official and people can speak about them, but some of us HAVE TESTED THEM.
Don´t worry now OP guards and your loremaster will have the same armour.
No, he has a valid point. It is only reasonable to actually wait and see how it plays out before you start complaining about this and that. As for being said by a Lore-master, how do you know he doesn't have a 75 Guardian? Seems to be a bit of a weak attempt to discredit someone for speaking reason. My minstrel is in my signature yet my main is a Guardian... what the?
Guardians are being given what we asked for: better, sustainable, and viable dps. It comes at a cost. It always does. OP is not a tanking stance -- it is a dps stance. And now it is a real dps stance. We should be thankful and learn to make the most of it. I know I am.
The problem imo is that grd-dps is compared to dps-classes. Therefore now we have some true dps, however it comes at a cost. The problem with those costs I feel are that it hampers our core. Afterall I did roll a guard to keep my fellows safe, and not to dish out some awesome epic chimp dps.
Therefore I feel there is actually nothing wrong with tanking in dps. Actually our dps I found not too bad, biggest issue was the power consumption. Now we get high dps numbers, yet it destroys our tanking... Tanking in OP or S&B.. whats the problem? I mean, we are tanks afterall so we should be.
My main problem atm are the destruction of the core of the class I love. When I group up I want the mobs to hit me, not the others. Do I run in OP, yes.. however, I still want the mobs to hit me and not my fellows. Am I using my dps to compare with others? personally I never did that, because as said, I'm a tank and want mobs to hit me. Even when I would run an instance as 2nd tank and thus in OP. There are still moments I would jump in if needed to help out, even switching to defence stance and S&B. This is now hampered...
The problems I feel which are my biggest concerns are the detaunts and the 2second induction in switching stances. With the huge numbers that mobs hit for nowadays 2 seconds is way too much to actually help out. So I get to choose to only go dps and let us whipe... or I tank... While the flexibility we had was one of our strengths to be able to switch in mere moments just to protect and serve. At this moment we are very badly gimped in our flexibility and we are a class that actually need it. Or are the wardens now also getting a dps stance and an tanking stance with 2 seconds induction to switch? tbh, I dusted off my warden because I feel with these new changes it fits my playstyle better... higher flexibility where I can go dps if I wanted and tank if I wanted. With guard this was one of the things I loved and continuesly did.. but now heavily hampered.
Sorry for the longer post and sorry if I offended anyone.. didn't mean too. Just trying to get my thoughts out and sometimes I'm not very good in getting em across.. sorry for that but I hope you can see my point. Just to be clear, nothing wrong with dps grds or tanking only grds.. but I love to switch and be flexibel.. this is now a major issue imo, so take away the detaunts and leave em intact, no 2 seconds induction between switching stances... and I would even love to have lower dps if that is what it means.
for those that are complaining about the changes, i think you are just getting too far ahead of yourselves. first, because it made me laugh, catch of breath is about the worst self heal and i only traited and use it for the power boost. second, if any of my DPS classes had as many useable de-aggro abilities there wouldnt be a need to even watch the screen and i could just randomly smash buttons without a care in the world. as far as the -30% to mitigations ill quote the diary...
"Conclusion
We feel that these changes will allow a Guardian to do almost as much damage as the Champion/Hunter/Runekeeper in DPS stance and, more importantly, be able to maintain it. Some may question the reduction in mitigation ratings, but we felt the greater morale pool of the guardian as well as the possibility of using a shield while in Overpower necessitated some penalty. Because Guardians should be well into diminishing returns on their mitigation ratings it should not be as bad as taking 30% more damage. The addition of inductions to stance switching is to prevent stance dancing as a normal part of the guardian’s rotation. That these inductions have limited knockback means that even while being pounded by multiple monsters the guardian will be able to switch stance without too much difficulty."
i think 'Because Guardians should be well into diminishing returns on their mitigation ratings" is a hint about something regarding... mitigations? i am pretty annoyed about the induction. i stance dance. in fact the day this released i was in annuminas popping OP/guard threat and my 2hand/sword+board to support the MT. i like doing it and it was nice to be able to do it as i felt was needed.
yes i can see how this might be an issue for the moors but i have only been there once..... i think. im just going to stay out of that for just plain ignorance of LOTRO pvp.
my interpretation of the 'upcoming changes' (if thats your REAL name- i think changes are to come still...) is that you are a guardian. your job is to tank. but guess what, now if you are on a raid TANKING and you get to a boss that only requires one tank you can DPS without worrying about respecing etc.
im not 100% for the changes, but at the end of the day i dont give a donkey's poo about what anyone else can do. the bottom line is im a tank and if i wanted to do anything else i (or you) should have made a better choice in profession...
edit:
i had a thought came to mind this morning regarding issues of picking up aggro after MT has died, as i was trying to figure out avoiding de-aggro but still DPSing in case the tank is in a 'probably gonna die' situation. the changes, i feel, are more in a direction to support tank geared/traited guardians to have a use in single target (thus single tank) situations. most of the OP abilities will not reduce threat (minus fray the edge). so if there is a situation where your tank does have the odds of dying, then 2handed OP may be the option to go with. if its on a farm status situation, then you wont be useless as you can pump out DPS without having to have a 2handed weapon and pulling threat off the MT. with this in mind, the induction isnt much of a concern, and if you do have to execute it mid-combat will aid the tank with picking up aggro.... after all no damage means no threat. im still not comfortable with the 2 sec induction though, as 1.5 may be a better area to consider. i cant make a concrete judgment however for i have not used it and am strictly going off what i experience with alts and their inductions and not my guardians........ cuz there aint any that comes to mind lol.
another question thus popped up for me, what about guardians threat? does this stance have an induction or can you just pop it. if so, then all you have to do to go from OP to guard threat, then smash engage to pick up tanking. i dont see this being too ideal with multiple mob pulls, as we dont have a AoE 'engage' but might be able to recover the situation via engage>challenge>whirling retaliation execution sequence.
Last edited by Sindiwen; Aug 13 2012 at 02:59 PM.
Really good leaders can lead without anyone even realizing the fact. And the elite few that make their grip on power known, exert their power in such a way that no one really cares they are being manipulated.
It's not just you, Aineas, but I think you want to have your cake and eat it too. We both feel strongly about the guardian class but I see the positive thing about these changes is that our core has not been affected. We can still tank as effectively as ever before. The only difference is, should the situation arise when the best defence calls for a good offence -- we will deliver. So, if you want to tank, tank. If you need to overpower your enemies... then overpower them. 'Tanking' in an Overpower stance simply is NOT, by definition, overpowering them.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't recall reading anything in the Dev Diary about a 2 sec induction to go back to block stance, only OP.
Changes look OK to me, but then I am an old-fashioned tanking guardian. i don't use OP much, my weapons and muscle-memory are suited much more to sword&board and so I tend to use this exclusively. i don't even have a legendary 2-hander, I have no need for one. I only need one belt. I'm a guardian, I guard things. Have the changes killed my gameplay? I doubt it looking at them, but I'll wait until hands-on until deciding. I'm not into pre-emptive moaning.
I really don't want to DPS thanks. I realise some do, and that's fine for them, but I have a champ and hunter for DPS work, they are better at it. Some might say the champ is a good viable tank, and I'm not going to argue that, for the simple reason that I don't tank with mine, he's an AOE DPS-machine and I see no reason to try and shoehorn him into being a tank.
I also have a warden who arguably has some of the skills of hunter, champion and guardian, but I play him as a warden and put him down for long periods, having the combinations in memory is essential for this class so I can't just pick him up and drop him whenever I feel like it, he needs playing in a sustained way. He's ideal for solo work, I use him accordingly, but haven't driven him to end-game yet he may have more uses. His main utility to my stable at the moment is to be the group metalsmith.
My concern for the guardian, warden and champion is driven by reading the forums for each. Champs want a tank role, guardians want a DPS role, wardens want both. Hunters want more morale, pets, melee skills, self heals, bubbles and well just about anything they can get. I'm worried that at some future point we'll have a Champion Guardwarden created, with three stances, AOE, Guard, and (ranged) DPS. We'll all be the same and stance-dance the role. We're not there yet, but it's a worry as people don't seem to want to have a single role character. Whereas my solution is to roll a new one if I want to take part in that type of play. Nothing would make me more bored than a group of characters with different names but identical skills.
PvP? Roll a champ or RK. Or Loremaster. Or whatever you feel the top PvP character is these days. I want my guardian to remain what he is, thanks, not be bent to fit the PvP ideal.
It's not just you, Aineas, but I think you want to have your cake and eat it too. We both feel strongly about the guardian class but I see the positive thing about these changes is that our core has not been affected. We can still tank as effectively as ever before. The only difference is, should the situation arise when the best defence calls for a good offence -- we will deliver. So, if you want to tank, tank. If you need to overpower your enemies... then overpower them. 'Tanking' in an Overpower stance simply is NOT, by definition, overpowering them.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't recall reading anything in the Dev Diary about a 2 sec induction to go back to block stance, only OP.
Guardian’s Defence will now have a 2 second induction with limited knockback.
turning on our tanking defence will have a 2 second induction.... if it was only OP I could defo live with that and would only be fair imo compared to the higher dps. I'm not talking about tanking abilities... or just op. But now we are forced to make a choice upfront what we want to do... while in our core we are tanks. So switching to our core should be done without any expenses made. I'm not talking about going OP tanking... I'm talking about when the &&&& hits the fan or just when it's easier to do so, that you switch to tankmode and tank some mobs after which you go back to op. This is a flexibility that is now gimped and nerfed. Which imo is not needed, uncalled for and hits us in our core: tanking. Is it impossible? no, but like I stated... mobs hit harder and harder... Minnie's will prolly be dead in 2secs, so this means a wipe. As playing a guard I feel responsible for every instance and wiping is not fun to me because I feel it as my responsibility despite my role. So I feel if I'm there in OP and could've switched and help out... but I couldn't do so in time due to that 2 sec induction nowadays I feel like I'm failing... (pretty much put it too blunt I know I 'm sorry for that... but putting it more bluntly and black/white tends to make things clearer). So I know it's not that black and white... however, I fail to see a 2 sec induction is needed for dropping to our core role: to protect and serve.
Edit:
I'm sorry if I sound a bit blunt and aggressive. Not my intention, but it does clear things up. And above all, I play this class from the beginning and while I've played other classes, this is the one I love and the only class I really love to play fulltime. Especially that flexibility is something that I love... helping out the group wherever needed. Now I feel kinda frustrated because I see it hampered. Also because the game is more and more going towards solo... Maybe it's not so bad afterall, and is it my fear speaking. However, this is how I feel and I want to share it so maybe others can build from there. I know i'm not the best one in words or being "verbally tactical" and I know I can come across as hostile. It is my weakness so I'm really sorry if anyone feels like that, I really don't want that. Just trying to provide an insight of my view so others that are more skilled in numbers and verbally can build on it. Again sorry.
Guardian’s Defence will now have a 2 second induction with limited knockback.
turning on our tanking defence will have a 2 second induction.... if it was only OP I could defo live with that and would only be fair imo compared to the higher dps. I'm not talking about tanking abilities... or just op. But now we are forced to make a choice upfront what we want to do... while in our core we are tanks. So switching to our core should be done without any expenses made. I'm not talking about going OP tanking... I'm talking about when the &&&& hits the fan or just when it's easier to do so, that you switch to tankmode and tank some mobs after which you go back to op. This is a flexibility that is now gimped and nerfed. Which imo is not needed, uncalled for and hits us in our core: tanking. Is it impossible? no, but like I stated... mobs hit harder and harder... Minnie's will prolly be dead in 2secs, so this means a wipe. As playing a guard I feel responsible for every instance and wiping is not fun to me because I feel it as my responsibility despite my role. So I feel if I'm there in OP and could've switched and help out... but I couldn't do so in time due to that 2 sec induction nowadays I feel like I'm failing... (pretty much put it too blunt I know I 'm sorry for that... but putting it more bluntly and black/white tends to make things clearer). So I know it's not that black and white... however, I fail to see a 2 sec induction is needed for dropping to our core role: to protect and serve.
Fair enough, that one slipped by me. I agree in that I think the 2 sec induction for Guardian's Defence is unnecessary; however, I don't think it will be as much of a hindrance as you anticipate. As nice as the 5% block, etc, is great to have, it probably won't make or break your ability to tank in a pinch. You can live without that 5%. A lot of guardian's do when they use Guardian's Threat. So in theory you can drop OP, pop challenge, pledge, and take it from there. The Dev Diary also said that it would be limited knockback so we don't really know how severe that will be. I'm sure you would be able to pop a stance up once you've hit pledge, at least.
Honestly, I think the biggest issue with dropping OP to tank will not be the stances but the fact that you are neither geared nor traited for tanking. Ultimately, if you're in a fellowship as dps then someone else should be tanking. You will certainly be able to take agro and make do in a pinch, but if you want to main tank then you need to come prepared. It's like a minstrel can't expect to drop WS (traited redline) and heal as effectively as a minstrel traited for max heals, though you can still heal.
It's not just you, Aineas, but I think you want to have your cake and eat it too.
A main minnie (judging by your sig) talking about that...
Minnies in warspeech are already more durable than OP-Guards (thanks to self-heals) and deal more damage, unless they change that I don't see any reasons for us Guards not to be able to keep our survivability while getting more DPS...
I have just read the Dev notes. My heart sank and stomach ached, I have been playing my Guardian since before the launch of the Game. I and my kin have been here for so long now, this feels like our home. When I read the first write-up of what a Guardian was I knew that was what I wanted to play. I Wanted to be that Hero who always put others above him/herself. I don't see that in these notes, I see talk of detaunts, loss of noble spirit by not being able to draw upon my love of others to rally myself, What will my friends think? Will I still be able to hold the monsters in place while they take the breath of life away from those Monsters....
In 6 months Where will you who spoke above me where will you be? Will you still be here? Is this Game your "other home" too?
Will you be waiting with me for things to Change again or will you having seen the changes you Cried and raged for be once again moved on to a new Game that you believe you have a right to whine and gripe about and force changes there?
I have been quiet for so long because I thought my class did it's job very well...I have been Proud to play Guardian.
Didn't even read the rest of this thread... I'm sure it's just more whine-fest QQing.... But I wanted to say it's good to hear that SOMEONE other than myself feels this way. I may not have chosen such flowery language in this setting, but the thought is absolutely right on. I picked a Guardian to be a Guardian of my fellows. I picked it to tank. I picked it with low DPS and high mits because that is what I wanted to be. The Guardian as a True Guardian is a dying breed. Not because of anything the devs have done, but because the community has decided DPS is king and selfless sacrifice is useless.
Well said Jenna. We will stand strong and proud as the last of a dying breed!
A main minnie (judging by your sig) talking about that...
Minnies in warspeech are already more durable than OP-Guards (thanks to self-heals) and deal more damage, unless they change that I don't see any reasons for us Guards not to be able to keep our survivability while getting more DPS...
No, my main is a Guard. I already stated that. The Dev Diary indicates that the Guardian will be capable of much more dps than the minstrel as it will be competitive with the other primary dps classes. DPS in WS is nowhere near that. I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to have some defensive ability with the same comparative strength of a fervour champ, but I think the current changes do make some sense. I would like to see CaB scaled up. Same with WH, which is a weak heal as it is these days. At least in OP it will give us a pretty significant buff to physical mastery. If anything, these changes are encouraging more co-operative group gameplay and I think that's a good thing.
It's 30% of your mit rating which turns out to be between 5-10%.
Feeling too squishy? Try a shield in OP. Try dropping stance THEN hitting pledge. For those of you saying you want to go glass cannon in the moors..... No one can. Everyone builds for a little more vit/morale/mits. For goodness sakes lets try to experiment before we say the class isn't viable in OP.
I think I am going to cry I am so happy! The only reason I am even leveling a Champ is because my Guard couldn't sustain DPS. Now with this update I am totally going to work more on my Guard and make sure he is ready for RoR!!!! OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!!
Im not this excited but i am happy that i will be able to do much more dps with my guardian. I enjoy playing classes that have shields and i very much enjoy playing the guardian class because they avidly use their shields when fighting (as opposed to minstrels and even wardens).
I was very opposed to using OP stance because the idea behind it was that i had to stop playing as a guardian and rather play as a weaker, slower version of a melee dps class. With these upcoming changes i will be able to still use my shield and weapon and deal high damage. This will make questing (which is what i do 100% of the time when logged on) will be far more fun.
You arent suppose to tank in OP mode and you all complained more dps!!! I dont see the problem here at all if you want to tank and DPS as high as an actual DPS class then you are like a bunch of kids who want there to be one super classs and say haha my class is the best. three words for you all GET OVER IT
Anyways - I completely agree we should lower mits in favour of more DPS in OP. What I DON'T like is losing Pledge's BEP (our only survival skill - sprint is not). We might as well be melee hunters.
I'm not clear on whether pledge will be only an offense buff while in OP.
The offense buff they're giving for it is so terrible I assumed it would be pledge's normal effect + an offense buff.
If I'm wrong... well pity to us all.
2nd note. I have no idea how guards will fare in the moors. At this point based on what we know champs will be more durable and do more damage. But there's a good chance guards will get a moors-only effect just like champs have, you never know. I also don't really care... If you play this game for PvP only you should really try out some other games.
says who? It worked for quite some time, you know...
Just because it "worked" doesn't mean it was supposed to happen.
I was around when they released OP stance. If I remember correctly, the reasoning was that Guards pre OP had a hell of a slog through the early levels because we had no DPS stance. It didn't bother me over much but a lot of people put up a stink about it. It probably had something to do with PvP as well. So the Devs decided to give the guards a soloable stance that allowed them to burn through landscape mobs a lot easier. The same reason they gave minnies WS eventually.
Not once have I ever heard a Dev get on here and say "OP is for tanking as well as the two other stances we gave you that are for tanking"... OP was never meant to be a tanking stance. Just like fervour was never meant to be a tanking stance for champs. People may have found a way to make the system work for them so that they could tank in OP but that does not mean it was intended. Nor does it mean that you need to pitch a fit and whine when the Devs make an adjustment that takes away your ability to tank in a stance that was never intended to tank in the first place.
You want to tank? Then get in a tank stance and do it. You want to DPS? Then get in a DPS stance and do it. You want to do both equally well at the same time??? Play another game...
The issue of a viable sec. role has been addressed and on the right track imho.
Our tanking side got few but needed changes.
Won't pop any champagne yet until I see the changes for myself, but am quite happy about them right now!
Also you might want to check Graalx answer here : http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...f-the-downside
The way I see it you can drop aggro with 4 skills, but in case of emergency you can still hit challenge and/or CoD to save the day if main tank is in trouble or dying/dead
First and utmostly,-30% in tactical,physical,armour mitigations?Really?
Do you even know what -30% physical rating means right now? Did you even looked at that values from you guardian?
If you have 65% common mitigation, -30% means you end up around 50-51%. How could you survive with that?
At least Turbine tries to fix something for this wreckage of a class. Tanks in other game can dps/heal/support just as good as any other class. So they try to fix the dps and players still complain.
Oh, well, let's hope they can fix the guardian and don't make a mess out of the mounted combat like they did with the skirmish soldiers. Having pet system for LM/CAP and not using it.
Do you even know what -30% physical rating means right now? Did you even looked at that values from you guardian?
If you have 65% common mitigation, -30% means you end up around 50-51%. How could you survive with that?
At least Turbine tries to fix something for this wreckage of a class. Tanks in other game can dps/heal/support just as good as any other class. So they try to fix the dps and players still complain.
Oh, well, let's hope they can fix the guardian and don't make a mess out of the mounted combat like they did with the skirmish soldiers. Having pet system for LM/CAP and not using it.
First of all,thank you for the info but yeah I have looked into my character panel lately so I know the mitigation values.I was just stating things about a class that should be able to have access to both PvMp and PvE directions without anything being undervalued.If the -30% is applied,a guardian going with a 2-handed weapon in Ettenmoors will have the worst survivability of all classes.Even hunters can at least dps from range.As far as PvE is concerned,Guardians are bound unto tanking and maybe off-dpsing in 6 mans and 3 mans.No actual end-game raiding kin will use a guardian as a dps.And for the record,the dps is being made sustainable,not increased.There is a 40% critical magnitude increase,so ONLY in case u land a critical hit,you will do more damage.That isn't by any means the dps class damage,so being "close"to that kind of dps is relevant...
What goes around,comes around.Or at least it's soothing to believe it.
NB: I only skim read the dev diary and haven't read most of the posts here.
My Perspective
I am someone who has been plugging for more DPS since the RoI changes were announced/RoI came out, when it very quickly became obvious that OP dps significantly dropped comparatively to other classes.
OP is in such a bad state now that it would be hard to make changes to the stance that end up affecting it negatively overall. But while there is a lot to like about the suggested changes, it's taking OP in a completely different direction than before. The old stance was something unique: a hybrid of high DPS, high aggro generation, and medium survivability that allowed you to tank a moderately wide range of content and get through it significantly more quickly. The new stance sounds just like a poor man's pure DPS class.
Looking at the changes I don't even expect that our DPS will increase as much as Graal seems to imply, but I'm willing to take his word for it, for the purposes of this post at least.
Allowing us to use OP with a shield is a very much appreciated change. Having more options at our disposal is never a bad thing. It will likely be fun to play around with for a while, and possibly has some usefulness in the moors (not that I care about the moors at all). Unfortunately though, I fear you just don't hit hard enough with a shield to start with for OP with a shield to be of any real use; the DPS gain will likely be trivial in PvE for all but solo/3 man (not fun) content. But who knows, maybe it will turn out to be better than I think (one can only hope).
More Background
Before RoI, there was a fairly nice balance between Champions and Guardians (though admittedly Glory was slightly weaker than it should have been). There will always be a lot of overlap between the roles the two classes play, but the stance options (Guardian Shield, Champion Glory + Shield, Champion Glory, Guardian Overpower, Champion Fervor) all differed from each other reasonably significantly.
Glory did need a buff in RoI, but instead of giving the stance some small survivability and DPS increases that could have made it a useful tanking-focused dps/tanking hybrid (similar to OP but with more survivability and less DPS), it was turned into a poor man's pure tank stance. While a well geared Champion can be almost as survivable as a Guardian, there just isn't any reason to expend great effort to make yourself almost as good as another class...
Now that Overpower has been indirectly nerfed to hell in RoI, Graal's solution for RoR is to do to Overpower what was done to Glory in RoI (ignoring the possibility of Shield+OP actually being useful for now), ie: instead of coming up with some buffs to boost DPS and survivability in Overpower (restoring it to the dps-focused dps/tanking hybrid it used to be), it is being made into a poor man's pure DPS stance (considerably lower survivability for gains in DPS).
At least high DPS is high DPS, ie: unlike survivability [Glory], DPS [Overpower] is (almost) always useful. But what we're being offered is still vastly inferior to what we had before imo.
Other Stuff
Finally, this 2s handicap when stance switching is just stupid. I don't understand the need for it at all. It almost feels like a "just in case I accidentally make something too powerful I should put a limit on things" kind of change (that's very unlikely from you FYI Graal). Only people who play well are penalized by this change (smart stance-switching in combat is actually not easy to do well) , and it just means there's going to be even less difference between good and bad players.
In the end we have to reserve judgement on the changes obviously. Maybe Graal will screw up and give us too much DPS (that's a joke). But after many repetitions of poorly-thought out changes across this whole game, I'm eternally pessimistic about updates these days.
And to hopefully make my main point more obvious for stupid/lazy people
Here's some charts. Obviously, if you're not pushing the blue line, you're (in general) unlikely to be very useful. OP was previously right up close to the line providing a unique trade-off that was ideal for tanking most six man instances, etc. It's now way below the line and barely worth using.
Sadly, It doesn't look like we're going to get back close enough to the line to make the stance useful/fun like it was before. Worst of all, there just aren't any options near the central area of the chart anymore for either class.
Please note: The exact locations of the circles isn't important and I didn't think about it that hard. There's plenty of room for debate (ie: pre-RoI Glory+Shield should have lower DPS). But obviously they are roughly correct and hopefully you can see that this makes a pretty clear statement.
Griping pre-diary was all: "I want more DPS in Overpower! I want more sustainability in Overpower! I want less agro generation in Overpower!
Dev listened, dev amazingly gave all 3 of those things while not changing tanking very much at all. Surprise!
I assume all the people who wanted these changes have now gone back into hiding and are no longer being vocal on the forums, because now they are being drowned out by the "I want to tank in overpower!" crowd.
Griping pre-diary was all: "I want more DPS in Overpower! I want more sustainability in Overpower! I want less agro generation in Overpower!
Dev listened, dev amazingly gave all 3 of those things while not changing tanking very much at all. Surprise!
I assume all the people who wanted these changes have now gone back into hiding and are no longer being vocal on the forums, because now they are being drowned out by the "I want to tank in overpower!" crowd.
Actually, I was one of the people, and I made quite a few posts regarding the diary.
A lot of what Evendale posted rings true for the issues I see with it, and whilst I've stated why I see them as a bad path to take I'm going to state my view again:
OP was in a great place before RoI. It was a simple tweak to a tanking skillset, with a couple of additional skills and +28% added to 115% potential offense for 143% total. 143% compared to 115% (a 24.3.% likely damage increase), and the use of two-handers, turned the tanking skillset into a stance with less dps than dps classes, but close with a proportionate amount of extra defense in return for the extra dps the guard didn't have, and with a power reality (low power pools, a range of power costs between cheap and expensive, and a sum negative power retention too far in the red) that made sustaining power whilst fully dps'ing in the stance only fully possible with outside support.
Then came RoI. Offense was uncapped and gradually offense values soared to well in excess of +100%, thus turning the OP stance +28% (and other such offense buffs like it) into a paltry tooth-pick trying to prop up the tanking skillset into being comparable/viable dps. At the same time fate disappeared from guard gear and so icpr rates dropped and made the power situation further impractical as the OP guard tried to put out anywhere near the damage others provided (even non-dps) groups and failed to preserve power. And all this the OP guard contended with whilst suffering a distinct lack of might on their gear for their primary stat (might is the guards primary stat, even if we pack a lot of vit for mitigation and morale, might is still the source of our offense and that qualifies it) for dealing damage. In short order guards fell behind for dps in their dps stance by a large degree (we're talking dps classes being 30%+higher dps than the OP guard with both fully glass-canon built).
So we ask for the deficiency of OP to be resolved (aka give us more dps in OP). The diary of proposed changes responds (and note; it is indeed a response; but it does use at least one of the worst suggestions that were made for increasing OP dps; crit multipliers for a class with lacking crit rating) with a dps increase that is supposed to increase guard dps to near the levels of dps classes. That would be great if it holds true. To hold true we'll need to (imo) be looking at at least 90% (which could be called viable, even if not desirable) of champ single-target dps (the king of aoe and after all, the guard already comes in 2nd), which is roughly a 20% increase, and I too will give the benefit of the doubt that a sum total of 50% increase in crit multiplier (again note this is for a class so notably lacking in crit rating, both from passives and current gear) and extra bleed damage will amount to that 20%. The complete abolition of the power issue the guard experienced in OP during RoI is welcome and will go a long way to encouraging guards to get the most out of the other changes as they force their dps through, but with possible concerns regarding getting enough parries with the proposed changes being slightly impeding.
And then we get the 'balancing'. Apparently the guard in it's currently gimped secondary role; needs a nerf to it's mitigations whilst in its dps stance to balance the gain in damage. Well, frankly, it's looking like a 25% increase in damage taken as we're expecting mitigation changes in the order of 60% dropping to 50%; meaning taking 50pts instead of 40pts of damage for every 100 before mitigation. +25% damage taken in trade for very optimistically (the diary might say it approaches the dps of dps classes, but it doesn't seem to add up that way) a +20% to dps. That is a nerf for one thing, but it might work if the class were looking at high mitigation levels in trade for poor dps before the change, but the case of comparison is a dps build and in said build the guard just barely has more mitigation than a capt or champ (in similar build) and certainly wouldn't be valued as highly as either other heavy class regardless for utility or timer-based survival.
So, we're looking at a nerf for an already gimped dps stance. One that can be worked past for a portion of pve content through the sheer triviality of the content (landscape), or simply not holding any aggro to take damage (in the case of 6-mans or raids), but that gimps the survivability of the guard (compared to other classes in similar positions) for 3-man content where group dynamics might cause/require the guard to hold aggro, or in any instance where the guard takes damage in melee without holding aggro to cause it, or lastly... in the moors.
It's a nerf to a spec that's already gimped and people are willing to look beyond the fact that it's a nerf because they're looking at the cases in which it can be worked around to benefit from the damage increase. There are cases where it's unavoidable, and whilst one of the big ones is in the moors; that doesn't mean it's exclusive to pvp.
NB: I only skim read the dev diary and haven't read most of the posts here.
I am glad to see that you are still around, your input on the forums is always appreciated even if we have disagreements. On this topic, as you said the circles are roughly placed, yet you conclude that the new stance is worse than what we had pre-RoI. That sound very pessimistic to me, and I am rather looking forward to join the open beta (if there is one) to test these changes before evaluating them. I agree that pre-RoI overpower was rather in a no-man's land where no other class stances belonged, and post-RoR OP is unlikely to be in such a place. But there are no clues yet as to the position of post-RoR OP wrt the blue line. It could end-up being close to champion's ardour: a stance where you can P/E (remember that parry stance is merged with OP, that's 5% more parries if you get aggro), where you can dish out a decent ST DPS and a very good AOE DPS (with STW DoTs permanently on all targets through improved sweeping cut and improved whirling retaliation).
I was one of those asking for the diaries changes. I wanted more DPS, less threat gen in OP, and power self-sustainability. Looks like I got all I asked for, so I am not going to come and flame the forums or do any kind of self promotion. I will just wait and see for myself if this is really as good on release day as I believe it is.
Originally Posted by Grusk
And then we get the 'balancing'. Apparently the guard in it's currently gimped secondary role; needs a nerf to it's mitigations whilst in its dps stance to balance the gain in damage.
Of course we have to get balancing. Remember this old unused parry stance ? It's right there in OP. Without the mitigation nerf, we would have a DPS stance which is as survivable as the block stance. The biggest change for OP tanking is the threat generation. No more leeches on WR and no more extra threat on VB is what will render OP tanking impossible unless you are playing with sleeping DPS partners. If you are not trying to tank in OP, the mitigation nerf is not a big thing. The diary say that it affects ratings, so your overall mitigation percentage should still be well above any medium or light armour. We could be a lit bit behind champions and captains, but we have those 5% parries for any physical attack.
If you are not trying to tank in OP, the mitigation nerf is not a big thing. The diary say that it affects ratings, so your overall mitigation percentage should still be well above any medium or light armour. We could be a lit bit behind champions and captains, but we have those 5% parries for any physical attack.
Thanks for reading, and have fun in middle earth.
I was one of the ones that thought tanking in OP was kinda dumb and went againist what Guardians are meant to do. If we want to tank, we use one of our tanking stances, and OP should be for pure dps.
Again, as I've mentioned before and I'll mention again, please don't nerf our survival skills (Pledge) because it's key for PvP but by all means, reduce our mits so it's comparable to other heavy armour classes in favour of more DPS.
Also, Graalx, if you're reading this, please PLEASE allow pledge's BEP (and burg's BEP while we're at it) mitigate ALL incoming attacks including tactical.
NDA was lifted, expect some input on this from beta guardians. The first thing to mention is that the -30% mitigation really only applies to the ratings obtained through armour and simple "+ X physical/tactical mitigation" items, scrolls and relics. The might and vitality part is unchanged. Since physical derives from vitality+might and tactical derives from vitality alone, keeping a decent amount of vitality gives you a nice morale buffer along with a decent tactical mitigation and a good physical mitigation.
Say that (at level 75) you have 18000 ratings against common damage (roughly 70%), 10k of which are coming from 1700 might and 800 vitality. The OP common mitigation will be 15600, which is roughly 66% common mitigation. So your are taking 13.33% more common damage. Obviously, without a shield your mitigations are actually much lower than that, but the 10k physical mitigation from might and vitality remains untouched.
Another exemple, still on physical mitigation with 1700 might and 800 vitality. If you have 4k physical mitigation from armour, you had a rating before RoR of 14k (~ 63%) and of 12.8k after (~ 60.5%). This is hardly noticeable on landscape mobs dealing common damage.
The effect is much more palatable on tactical damage, as an OP set has usually a low vitality and hence much more "+ tactical mitigation" ratings. Taking again our 1700 might and 800 vitality guard, assuming that somehow tactical mitigation was maxed at 18000 (~ 70%) in OP before RoR, the new tactical mitigation will be 13560 (~ 62%). This time, damage received increased by 26.66%, which is quite a hit, but still better than medium or light armor.
Griping pre-diary was all: "I want more DPS in Overpower! I want more sustainability in Overpower! I want less agro generation in Overpower!
Dev listened, dev amazingly gave all 3 of those things while not changing tanking very much at all. Surprise!
I assume all the people who wanted these changes have now gone back into hiding and are no longer being vocal on the forums, because now they are being drowned out by the "I want to tank in overpower!" crowd.
Of course we have to get balancing. Remember this old unused parry stance ? It's right there in OP. Without the mitigation nerf, we would have a DPS stance which is as survivable as the block stance.
*snip*
If you are not trying to tank in OP, the mitigation nerf is not a big thing. The diary say that it affects ratings, so your overall mitigation percentage should still be well above any medium or light armour. We could be a lit bit behind champions and captains, but we have those 5% parries for any physical attack.
5% parry (and some extra partial chance, right?) is indeed noteworthy, and I wont belittle it. The problem we're facing is that that wont make up for a mitigations hit of ~25% in any circumstance where we stand to take tactical damage. Top of the list of situations is the moors, but it's not purely moors either as of course melee dps take tactical damage in instances and raids, many of them even. So 5% of the weakest form (only melee attacks with facing) of avoidance and up to 20% increase in dps; vs ~+25% extra incoming damage for tact. Common is fine, but the hit to tact mit is ridiculous in the situations where it's relevant because it's a sum nerf to a stance that currently does worse damage than that of any other freep for single target (also not being as survivable as other dps'ing heavies) and that this is supposed to be fixing.
Originally Posted by RGilthanas
Again, as I've mentioned before and I'll mention again, please don't nerf our survival skills (Pledge) because it's key for PvP but by all means, reduce our mits so it's comparable to other heavy armour classes in favour of more DPS.
Also, Graalx, if you're reading this, please PLEASE allow pledge's BEP (and burg's BEP while we're at it) mitigate ALL incoming attacks including tactical.
I still think the other way round makes more sense. The current format of the changes puts the tact mits of a guard far below those of other heavies who actually build for them to the same degree as the guard. And let's face it; all the other melee freep classes have far better play situations currently, and in the case of a champ the situation is getting even better as they're gaining a skills range legacy. Leaving the mitigations alone but continuing to remove the ability to defensively pledge or gain the bigger heal from WF in OP (forcing you to not use them or drop stance to achieve their defensive result, and thereafter have to reapply stance with an induction if you want to go back to dps'ing) works fine in my mind.
I said it in the pvp forums, but I'll mention it again here: the %age of moors freep populations that guard claims has gone steadily down from 8.5% to just over 6% since RoI in a recognizable slope. Those sorts of trends are seen for good reason, and it's not because guards are in a favorable position compared to other freeps.
Originally Posted by Maelendil
*snip*
The effect is much more palatable on tactical damage, as an OP set has usually a low vitality and hence much more "+ tactical mitigation" ratings. Taking again our 1700 might and 800 vitality guard, assuming that somehow tactical mitigation was maxed at 18000 (~ 70%) in OP before RoR, the new tactical mitigation will be 13560 (~ 62%). This time, damage received increased by 26.66%, which is quite a hit, but still better than medium or light armor.
Mistakes are mine, I hope I didn't do too many.
First, thanks for the clarification that the ratings being effected are specifically those from pure ratings sources. The mechanics being hidden from us presented something of a difficulty evaluating
Guards in OP don't pack 70% tact in live unless they're fully buffed, scrolled, using ward tactics and getting in-combat tact mit buffs actively. For a full glass-canon build you're looking at the low-mid 50's, and obviously building more toward it (except the outside sources) comes at the cost of dps.
I just don't see the justification for the mitigations nerf when what we're gaining is what the stance should have had in the first place. The end result will just make OP guards a poor comparison to a champ; bringing worse mitigation, worse timers for survival, worse threat management, and worse dps.
Say that (at level 75) you have 18000 ratings against common damage (roughly 70%), 10k of which are coming from 1700 might and 800 vitality. The OP common mitigation will be 15600, which is roughly 66% common mitigation. So your are taking 13.33% more common damage. Obviously, without a shield your mitigations are actually much lower than that, but the 10k physical mitigation from might and vitality remains untouched.
Another exemple, still on physical mitigation with 1700 might and 800 vitality. If you have 4k physical mitigation from armour, you had a rating before RoR of 14k (~ 63%) and of 12.8k after (~ 60.5%). This is hardly noticeable on landscape mobs dealing common damage.
The effect is much more palatable on tactical damage, as an OP set has usually a low vitality and hence much more "+ tactical mitigation" ratings. Taking again our 1700 might and 800 vitality guard, assuming that somehow tactical mitigation was maxed at 18000 (~ 70%) in OP before RoR, the new tactical mitigation will be 13560 (~ 62%). This time, damage received increased by 26.66%, which is quite a hit, but still better than medium or light armor.
Mistakes are mine, I hope I didn't do too many.
Big mistake you made:
Might gives +2 Physical Mitgation
Vitality gives +2 Physical Mitgation, +4 Tactical Mitgation
So your calculations were wrong. You calculated with:
Might +4 Phys. Mitgation
Vitality +4 Phys./Tact. Mitgation
But it is very optimistic to calculate with these numbers.
You just have much less defence when you go for damage (etten not meant).
In fact you just end at
~ 50% Physical Mitgation and ~30% Tactical Mitgation with normal damageequip.
A shield brought ~5% more Tactical Mitgation.
That was the state, when I tested in Round 3.
So I just reached the tactical defence of light armour. In a group that would be buffed some more, but there is on every buff the penalty of 30%.
The damage was ~55-60% of my normal damagedealer. (But I usually never play my guardian damage-skilled)
But my guardian was a little better equiped.
So a good damageguardian could maybe reach ~70-75% of a normal damagedealer.
Totally, just usefull against quantity of enemys dealing physical damage. In every other case, there is just no reason to take a damageguardian. Doing less damage, takes more or less the same damage as a light armour. Morale is not much higher with damageequip. (~ 1000 - 1600 morale more)
To be real clear: that things are just meant for PvE, not numbers of PvMP.
Big mistake you made:
Might gives +2 Physical Mitgation
Vitality gives +2 Physical Mitgation, +4 Tactical Mitgation
So your calculations were wrong. You calculated with:
Might +4 Phys. Mitgation
Vitality +4 Phys./Tact. Mitgation
Ouch, I know those values, I don't know how I could make such a big mistake. Thanks for catching it. I used excel for the more complicated examples, and just did the first two without any help. I guess that's where the mistakes came from: my old used brain;
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Originally Posted by Grusk
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Not QQing,just stating
First of all,thank you for the info but yeah I have looked into my character panel lately so I know the mitigation values.I was just stating things about a class that should be able to have access to both PvMp and PvE directions without anything being undervalued.If the -30% is applied,a guardian going with a 2-handed weapon in Ettenmoors will have the worst survivability of all classes.Even hunters can at least dps from range.As far as PvE is concerned,Guardians are bound unto tanking and maybe off-dpsing in 6 mans and 3 mans.No actual end-game raiding kin will use a guardian as a dps.And for the record,the dps is being made sustainable,not increased.There is a 40% critical magnitude increase,so ONLY in case u land a critical hit,you will do more damage.That isn't by any means the dps class damage,so being "close"to that kind of dps is relevant...
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