This is what we get for stealing the Champ dev. More DPS, but very few new threat tools to deal with what will certainly be more DPS tools on DPS classes.
Glad I still have a Warden for all the fun kiting. Horray for lazy mechanics.
Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
Improved Skills Level 77: Improved Sweeping Cut - This skill will cause all of the targets to Bleed with a Damage over Time (DoT) effect. This new bleed can be further increased with Salt the Wound.
Level 80: Improved Shield Swipe - This skill will add even more threat than previously.
Level 83: Improved Thrust – This skill has a greatly increased DoT effect.
These arent to shabby, the OP stance stuff Im not sure about its been a while since I took my guard out of tank mode to OP/parry.
Based on what I've read on the boards - folks got most of what they wanted in terms of Guards have a better/stronger secondary role.
For me personally - I'll play with OP a bit to check out how it works after RoR comes out, but honestly, I like tanking. I don't raid and even if I do start now that I've got a year of experience playing under my belt - I'll never be a hard core raiding Guard nor will I run in the moors (I'd die just walking in!). I suspect these changes will affect folks who do raid and play the moors a lot more.
I fellowship with my husband and a couple friends and I love tanking for them. Given that I'm with my hub's hunter 90% of the time - he needs me to tank to stay alive.
At least our class got some changes this time around - We've had a long dry spell since I started playing...
I realize OP needed serious help with power and DPS to actually "earn" a DPS slot in 6+ player group content. I realize we would have to take a survivability cutback somewhere. But a flat -30% to all mits PLUS destroying our only 2 self-heals PLUS turning our best defensive CD skill into a pure-DPS skill seems harsh to me. Maybe it wont be as bad as I think when it is live and I try it out for myself at RoR release...... nah, its just going to suck being a paper guardian.
if he was in the same position, he shouldn't have been fiddling around with the class.
the changes are clearly made to remove OP tanking.
My personal issue is that I like to solo in Parry Stance and make large-ish pulls. Gives me more AOE while maintaining survivability. The viability of that solo style is significantly reduced.
When in 6man groups or raids I'm usually in Threat Stance. With recent DPS class increases it has become increasingly harder to stay ahead of threat. Thank goodness for the new threat goodness ... oh wait
Personally I don't go OverPower, but I know there are people who do OP Tank. Graalx knows too and yes the decision was made to remove the ability to be DPS traited and still tank. I actually have no problem with that
What I want to see is an increase to Threat while tanking given that DPS classes have had increases recently that are making the threat race too lopsided. I know a Hunter who is complaining because he can't get his PM low enough that he doesn't pull aggro off of tanks. Now I don't want it to be so easy to maintain aggro that I don't have to work for it, but if I'm geared at the same level as the DPS in my group, it ought to be possible for me to maintain aggro if we both play our classes to the max.
it's only 30% to the actual mitigation number under physical tactical mit,
so if you happen to have 70% mitigation for common attacks you will have instead like 55% mitigation for common attacks which is way more than a warden.
the changes to OP are great, and the guardian class is already a great tank.
My personal issue is that I like to solo in Parry Stance and make large-ish pulls. Gives me more AOE while maintaining survivability. The viability of that solo style is significantly reduced.
I initially made this mistake too. If Threat Stance and Block Stance are there for tanking, and OP for group DPSing when there is a tank, what do we do solo, where I used to use Parry (or easy tanking when I'd rather AoE)?
The answer? No stance! Slot the trait that increases parry if need be, but that I expect to essentially be the same dang thing as parry stance is now. (Higher level guards could obviously use Threat stance solo too, the perceived threat would be irrelevant but the block/parry ratings are beneficial for more AoE and bleeds.)
"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
"As far as tanking in Overpower stance, I really don’t care. If, with the changes to stat caps, you can still survive them more power to you. We gave some thought to giving an increase in damage plus a lowering of power costs and the locking out of some tanking skills. In the end, we decided that Guardians are not Champions and the classes are close enough already."
That part never made it in to the RoI dev diary or it may have been removed.
Unfortunately with these changes Graal has failed to take in to account that in order to be 'competitive' with our DPS we will need to stack 2k+ might and 600 agility so our miss chance isnt too high.... Subsequently our vitality will be very low and we will be far from diminishing returns in terms of our mitigations... The -30% mitigation rating will make a squishy build even more squishy.
So basically they were happy with guards being tanks, plain and simple, but "we", the community, cried for more DPS, so they caved and gave it to "us", saying "finnne, if they really want more DPS, we can disable those tanking skills we talked about last year so they can have it".
For those distressed, I suppose this falls under, "be careful what you wish for, you might just get it"!
"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
so we're giving up a flat ~30% increased damage for +60% crit magnitude, or am i misunderstanding this?
or do we keep the +15% bonus that was in overpower.
and the traits section didn't mention anything about changing the +3% dmg +5% power cost... just because the power cost penalty has been removed, it doesn't make this trait any more useful.
So basically they were happy with guards being tanks, plain and simple, but "we", the community, cried for more DPS, so they caved and gave it to "us", saying "finnne, if they really want more DPS, we can disable those tanking skills we talked about last year so they can have it".
For those distressed, I suppose this falls under, "be careful what you wish for, you might just get it"!
If it were just the defensive timers it would be perfectly fine, but destroying the mitigations that are already (currently) balanced with those of other heavy classes (who incidentally both have better current dps, utility and survivability in their full-dps builds) has absolutely zero basis.
After listing all the changes to OP stance, the diary goes on to state that in other stances, "Catch a Breath will increase the amount healed." That means CaB has been buffed. Not sure what more I can say, given the beta NDA, but I think I can safely express my opinion that the change is very signficant and satisfies my long desire that the skill receive an upgrade.
You should also know that Graal made this change after the initial guard changes, and he dropped into the forum to let us know about it. So what we request can make a difference, especially when it's polite and well-reasoned.
If it were just the defensive timers it would be perfectly fine, but destroying the mitigations that are already (currently) balanced with those of other heavy classes (who incidentally both have better current dps, utility and survivability in their full-dps builds) has absolutely zero basis.
You are forgetting that the heavy shield applies if you S&B OP, which is now possible. It is a choice you make if you choose to not use it.
Some of that armour value applies to non common mits, as well as most raids & landscape mobs still dealing common damage, so you are significantly ahead of them in your mitigations. Ignoring the Guards crit defence bonus.
Additionally Champs in DPS mode have no BPE at all. Captains in DPS mode (Which is less than a guard already) have no block.
So a Guard can switch between full burn 2H or a lot more survivable but still pretty good DPS (1H is about 10% lower than 2H over time, smaller crits, but faster attacks), and a lot more survivability, even when set up for OP.
I realise people want to scream the sky is falling, but please at least get your numbers right if your trying to claim things.
You are forgetting that the heavy shield applies if you S&B OP, which is now possible. It is a choice you make if you choose to not use it.
Some of that armour value applies to non common mits, as well as most raids & landscape mobs still dealing common damage, so you are significantly ahead of them in your mitigations. Ignoring the Guards crit defence bonus.
Additionally Champs in DPS mode have no BPE at all. Captains in DPS mode (Which is less than a guard already) have no block.
So a Guard can switch between full burn 2H or a lot more survivable but still pretty good DPS (1H is about 10% lower than 2H over time, smaller crits, but faster attacks), and a lot more survivability, even when set up for OP.
I realise people want to scream the sky is falling, but please at least get your numbers right if your trying to claim things.
Captains out-dps guards single-target when traited and geared for it in live... are people really so blind as to the reality of the current guard situation?
Also... smaller crits? Crit magnitude is the same regardless, and the variance of the damage range of 1h and 2h is the same; so the ratio of the top-end damage of a 1h and a 2h to their dps values are the same; and so the size of the crits is proportionate to the dps value... aka the crits being smaller is just tied-in with dps and a pointless remark.
The important realities:
On the front of the single target dps whilst wielding a shield (and 1h); call me dubious. If the -10% you claim is true, despite the dps values being a wider margin then you're still looking at being 10% behind the mark to achieve mits that don't quite reach what they would be without a shield and without the nerf, even for common. For tact that situation is far worse, since you're getting 20% of armour for tact mit. So yes, a shield brings, what? 400+ rating to tact mit (I don't have it in front of me) and as you say crit defense, but whilst the crit defense is entirely valid (and valuable even, though crit defense is more valuable the more you have), you're badly mistaken if you think that our passive mitigations will match those of other heavies in full dps.
That's passive mitigation. It completely disregards the factor of survival timers. Of which the guard has zero without saving pledge and WF for those times (big loss of dps), and then losing dps as they drop stance to use them. Other melee have them; indeed anyone but a hunter has them and many of those classes don't exactly have to be right in the thick of the fight.
As for the dps. You simply can't get the block reactives to compete with a shield on for one, unless perhaps they've further changed protection in OP (without detailing it) to give block reactives from others. The supposed ~10% drop is on top of the issue that the numbers just don't seem to add up to even 90% of a dps toon even with a 2h. So the argument of it regarding shield is entirely void as the dps isn't solid enough to match up anyway. To match being lower dps then in theory full dps with a shield the guard should have more passive mitigation than capt or champ in full dps (regardless of lacking timers, they could be the penalty the OP guard faces on their own), but they don't. They have less dps, and even with the bpe and added crit defense, the lowering of passive mitigation is still severe enough that they're worse for passive mitigation.
I just cannot accept that being 90% of a dps AND being lower passive mitigation AND having zero survival timers is viable. It hits you most when the damage type is tact, which is certain instances and the moors (and which are both important tyvm) but rationalisations of the mitigations hit always seem to regard common damage situations, not tact. It doesn't quite even add up for common >.<
My initial impression is you're viewing the changes with guardian-only blinders on. We will likely have a disadvantage vs. tactical, and a significant disadvantage in the moors (where for some reason, champs can parry in fervor).
You have ignored that guardians will still have 5:1 morale:vita, and that guardians will be able to BPE while in OP whereas a champ cannot do any of those things. Some tactical damage can be bpe'd (grims in fnf). WF will still be available for healing. Champs are likely to have more tactical mitigations, but less life. I am well aware of their bubbles, but bubbles cost fervor to use and aren't always available. Honestly the bigger disparity will probably be that champs get incoming healing from their runes and guardians get Shield Use rank.
As for captains... I have no idea what captain dps will look like after the update, likely it will be significantly below what a guardian can do. Captains and (well-played) guardians are about even right now, guardians are getting a huge buff, captains are not.
The only really significant thing that I see in the changes is that it will be harder to get from Threat Stance to Guardian's Defense when I want the extra 3% of mitigation all of a sudden. I usually only do this when facing an enraging boss like Frushkul.
I don't think that particular change was all that well-thought out because in order to avoid an exploit situation with Overpower mode they changed something fundamental to tanking.
On the other hand maybe the way they did it with the limited knock back resistance during the 2 second induction will be useful in another way. Guardians currently have ways to avoid inducted knock backs by using Stamp and various conditional shield skills that can stun non-immune mobs and interrupt immune mobs. They also have Too the King, but it is very unreliable since it is deep in a chain.
Now we will have a second opportunity, if Stamp misses, to avoid a knock back by immediately beginning the switch from Threat Stance to Guardian's Defense and thus gaining the 2 seconds of limited knock back resistance.
Have to see how this plays out before I know if it is an improvement or not. It definitely changes some of the stance-dancing that I did in normal tanking situations.
By knock back they mean hits knocking back the induction slider.
If that's the case then I hate the changes because I no longer have a way to quickly get out of Threat Stance and into Guardian's Defense easily and I no longer have Parry Stance at all for when I want to maximize the fellowship's chances at a cj.
Seriously, Guardians weren't broken before they made these changes. Now they're less capable of performing the primary role they have which is to tank. Unintended consequences suck sometimes.
Am i the only one who missing a change on the corruption?
Every corruption goes active after 5 seconds, the guardian can remove corruption after 7 seconds. Please reduce the time to 3 seconds or make it instant.
Arowynn (Jäger) Pashgrimm (Wächter) Pashtick (Barde)
Sippe Erben der Avari
I think the changes make Guardians much squishier in OP though. I cant imagine that's going to make them more effective. Not being able to put up Guardian's Pledge during a creep rush is going to be bad too.
Am I the only one that feels that the changes might actually make our sec. role viable ??
Not sure till I see them in action, but I'm quite happy right now....
you guys are over reacting, those changes to pledge, are only different than normal when in overpower stance, and as far as soloing, well parry stance isnt gone, its embedded now into overpower, making more reactive skills open more often which as you know increases dps and survivability, as well as making catch a breath a parry event and power returns more often if traited. yea i agree, 30% reduction to mits isnt that great, i prefer to have less health more mits but guess now we're just gonna have to switch it up, more health, parry and evade stats, but with parry stance being integrated into overpower anyway, we'll actually be able to mitigate alot more damage than before so they had to make it a little more even. it isnt that they took our ability to tank away, they just changed some of the agro building skills to be more viable for a dps class while in overpower, i mean heck, no more power cost? means we can free up that legacy for something more useful, and as far as i can tell all they say is they removed the power cost and gave us alot more crit magnitude, so that tells me the dmg increase is still there as well as the other stuff, seems to me people are only reading what they want to see not the whole picture that is painted, im excited to try this out, although i mainly prefer to tank i do run in OP stance while not in an instance as i feel it helps me be a better tank in understanding dpsers needs.
Last edited by Shmooberry; Sep 18 2012 at 11:06 AM.
you guys are over reacting, those changes to pledge, are only different than normal when in overpower stance, and as far as soloing, well parry stance isnt gone, its embedded now into overpower, making more reactive skills open more often which as you know increases dps and survivability, as well as making catch a breath a parry event and power returns more often if traited. yea i agree, 30% reduction to mits isnt that great, i prefer to have less health more mits but guess now we're just gonna have to switch it up, more health, parry and evade stats, but with parry stance being integrated into overpower anyway, we'll actually be able to mitigate alot more damage than before so they had to make it a little more even. it isnt that they took our ability to tank away, they just changed some of the agro building skills to be more viable for a dps class while in overpower, i mean heck, no more power cost? means we can free up that legacy for something more useful, and as far as i can tell all they say is they removed the power cost and gave us alot more crit magnitude, so that tells me the dmg increase is still there as well as the other stuff, seems to me people are only reading what they want to see not the whole picture that is painted, im excited to try this out, although i mainly prefer to tank i do run in OP stance while not in an instance as i feel it helps me be a better tank in understanding dpsers needs.
The over reaction died out over a month ago. You sir have under reacted as evidence by your tardiness. 30% less mitigations is nothing to sneeze at.
The over reaction died out over a month ago. You sir have under reacted as evidence by your tardiness. 30% less mitigations is nothing to sneeze at.
yea, i understand that, just saying, its not the end of the class, just the end as we know it, adapt and overcome my friends, and thats only for overpower as well, not any other stance, while i understand you still take damage while not tanking, you shouldnt be facing that much of a problem from the reduction as most the attacks arent focused on you, and while soloing well, just doesnt bother me all that much compared to the upgrades made. maybe im an idiot, maybe not, guess only time will tell
yea, i understand that, just saying, its not the end of the class, just the end as we know it, adapt and overcome my friends, and thats only for overpower as well, not any other stance, while i understand you still take damage while not tanking, you shouldnt be facing that much of a problem from the reduction as most the attacks arent focused on you, and while soloing well, just doesnt bother me all that much compared to the upgrades made. maybe im an idiot, maybe not, guess only time will tell
while i agree that there was a lot of overreacting, i think that you should educate yourself on the changes before telling people it's all going to be fine.
specifically, these changes don't only affect overpower
while i agree that there was a lot of overreacting, i think that you should educate yourself on the changes before telling people it's all going to be fine.
specifically, these changes don't only affect overpower
Overpower Stance
Gains all of the benefits of Parry Stance
Allows the use of shields
The power cost penalty has been removed.
Added +20% critical damage magnitude
Added -30% to Armour rating, Physical Mitigation Rating and Tactical Mitigation Rating.
Add a 2 second induction with limited knockback.
Many skills will have different effects in Overpower Stance.
Guardian’s Ward will now give a Finesse buff. Guardian’s Ward Tactics will give +5% melee damage bonus in addition to the Finesse buff.
Improved Whirling Retaliation will now apply an effect that is equivalent to Salt the Wound.
Catch a Breath is now triggered by a Parry event and will restore Power not morale.
Guardian’s Pledge will now give +25% melee damage.
Warrior’s Fortitude will now give 50% of the previous morale bonus and add Physical Mastery.
Fray the Edge becomes a de-taunt skill.
Engage – gives lowered Perceived Threat for the duration of the Engage effect.
Protection By the Sword will now add +2% melee damage to the Guardian’s Fellowship.
All other skills that had inherent extra threat will now de-taunt for the same amount
copied directly from diary, specifically says changes made while in overpower stance, sure the induction time and some legendary traits will be change but, the meat of it is for overpower and overpower alone, if im missing something here, please correct me but im pretty sure i read it right
The mitigation penalties are to mitigation added by items, virtues, skills and traits. They do not affect the mitigation rating from stats. Also the amount of Physical and Tactical mitigation added from you reduced armour should not be further reduced by the penalties to Physical and Tactical ratings.
also its a reduction in your rating, not your actual percentage, dont have the formula or the patience to figure that one out, i tried to look around for a current conversion formula but couldnt find one, if anyone knows though that would be interesting to see
but just say, if you have 100 rating at 10% (purely an example ) then you would end up with 70 rating at 7% right? would like to see the actual rating to percentage formula however
In real terms on beta I have found the reduction to be around 4-6% depending on build. I think the tooltip is badly worded as the actual amount your tactical mitigation gets reduced by is much less than the implied 30%.
As an example, if I swap out Draigoch cloak and Galtrev barter pocket for the Pits cloak/pocket items with tactical mitigation on, then go in to over-power, my tactical mitigation actually increases by a little bit. I probably lose 1.5k morale by doing this but my morale is still much higher than it would be if I received 3 morale per vit as opposed to 5.
I'm not saying I like the hit in survivability for PvP but I do think it will work out well for PvE. The only way i can suggest to help out in PvP would be to add a +tactical mitigation buff to pledge to the keen-blade PvP guardian set. That said I quite like the set bonus as it is so it would be a tough one to call. Maybe a buff to the PvP crafted relics?
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Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
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