Don't be oversensitive, I never said you were silly, just that the point you are trying to make is.
Not sensitive, I just don't engage in conversations where opinions are dismissed as silly. I happen to think my opinion is valid. You feel different, no worries.
I honestly don't understand how you can have walked away from a dps warden without using sprint or hips and being within 40 metre range. The reasons I ask is because it is logically impossible. The only possible way would be to stun and sprint out of range, or to slow and hope the warden slow fails (luck not skill). Please explain how you manage to stroll away, allowing the warden to continuously attack you and survive? Bear in mind we're talking about at least an averagely competent warden in assailment stance and dps traits and gear (or at least hybrid gear).
Well, it happened.
On the comparison thing, the average freep at this point on my server for sure is in more than quest gear, quite a bit more. While the average creep is not a competitive rank (about 10). This is because gearing a freep takes under a week now, while levelling a creep takes ka horrendous amount of time, especially if you are not playing a warg or BA.
Then the creeps should quest a bit, strengthen up, etc.
The point is making any arguments about overall balance based from the experience of a warg and what his high ranked BA buddy says is pointless. And arguing that greenies should be awful is, in my mind, ridiculous. Greenies are it even vaguely close to freeps in quest gear, again unless you are a warg.
I've played most classes freep and creep to a reasonable rank. Warg suits my playstyle (solo). If I had heals and support, I'd probably prefer my reaver or BA but I prefer to have the freedom of playing solo so that means warg (and usually burg on freepside).
Go roll a new WL/defiler/reaver/spider and see how long and painful it is just to get to rank 5 and then come back, if you still think creeps are fine let me know.
Rolled my reaver during MoM B6 (when all the loser facemelting hunters first came out on freepside is when I decided creepside was more fun). I did it solo, I did it without starting with charge and I did it when ISB could almost kill me in one shot and it went through walls, etc. Been there, done it, I promise you a I know all about it. And my reaver still has twice as many KBs as deaths.
Low creeps are hideously underpowered, mid ranked ones are less squishy but still struggle to make an impact, high ranks are where it becomes interesting. Which comes back to one of my threads, why not just make all creeps rank 9 effectiveness upwards, no reason not to apart from a deluded freep community that thinks the week they spent gearing justifies months of ranking creepside.
Fresh creeps should be squishy. What they need is help and advice. I generally try to help them; most veteran creeps on our server prefer to ridicule them. To each his own. Freeps don't come fresh out of the box melting faces either you know. And BTW: I've leveled many freeps to max. The fastest freep I ever leveled (65 was the cap at the time) took about 5 days played time. That's not "a week". That's 120+ hours of played time just to be able to come out and get rolled by the average creep out there in my garbage gear. Most people don't level nearly that fast and then to really be an OP freep, they go grind instances endlessly and craft, etc. (for the record, I don't do this, my freeps are generally weak because of it and it doesn't bother me in the least). Conversely, I did a little questing on creepside on Sunday. In 2 hours I gained 2.5k infamy and half that in commies. A creep can literally quest his way to being competitive, and in my opinion, far more easily that a freep (assuming one does it my way: solo).
Please come up with a reasoned post about why the game is balanced, and how creeps are fine. Taking into account the average gear freep and creepside as well as the new player experience for both. If you can manage it then maybe the rest of us will admit to being wrong.
You see, that's just the thing. If you can go back in this thread and find where I said it was balanaced, we might see eye to eye. As it stands, you obviously read into my comments what you want to read. I stand by my opinions.
how about, just for &&&&s and giggles, come to brandy and my kin will put a freep raid together and show you what an OP freep raid is really like. really just for kicks, you only need to witness one fight.
I rolled a creep on BW about a year and half ago just to see what all the fuss was about. Every time I logged in it was 30 creeps camping a rez circle or something. Wasn't much fun. Some people enjoy that though, power to 'em I say.
I rolled a creep on BW about a year and half ago just to see what all the fuss was about. Every time I logged in it was 30 creeps camping a rez circle or something. Wasn't much fun. Some people enjoy that though, power to 'em I say.
good thing i didn't ask you to play on creepside - just watch a fraid vs craid fight.
Shock and Awe
Hydra - Captain. Kraken - Guard. Ra - Warg
When it takes 18 mostly veteran creeps 3-5 mins to kill 6 veteran freeps, it's no longer an issue of l2p. There is something majorly wrong with that picture.
And @ the OP:
The only time I think that the devs have even entered the moors is when the were advertising the new cosmetic skins. One came out on a normal r15 warg for less than 1 hr and died horribly and repeatedly. Then either the same one or a different one, came out on a hunter... a 75k hunter... and participated in a stab/TA lawn zergfest for 1-2 hrs. You tell me who they like better.
Agree, one freep=three creeps In Evernight GMS die with the creeps all the time trying solo¿? and when come in freep was a tank that use "let fly" all the time front of tol during 5 minutes¿?...
Not sensitive, I just don't engage in conversations where opinions are dismissed as silly. I happen to think my opinion is valid. You feel different, no worries.
Well, it happened.
Then the creeps should quest a bit, strengthen up, etc.
I've played most classes freep and creep to a reasonable rank. Warg suits my playstyle (solo). If I had heals and support, I'd probably prefer my reaver or BA but I prefer to have the freedom of playing solo so that means warg (and usually burg on freepside).
Rolled my reaver during MoM B6 (when all the loser facemelting hunters first came out on freepside is when I decided creepside was more fun). I did it solo, I did it without starting with charge and I did it when ISB could almost kill me in one shot and it went through walls, etc. Been there, done it, I promise you a I know all about it. And my reaver still has twice as many KBs as deaths.
Fresh creeps should be squishy. What they need is help and advice. I generally try to help them; most veteran creeps on our server prefer to ridicule them. To each his own. Freeps don't come fresh out of the box melting faces either you know. And BTW: I've leveled many freeps to max. The fastest freep I ever leveled (65 was the cap at the time) took about 5 days played time. That's not "a week". That's 120+ hours of played time just to be able to come out and get rolled by the average creep out there in my garbage gear. Most people don't level nearly that fast and then to really be an OP freep, they go grind instances endlessly and craft, etc. (for the record, I don't do this, my freeps are generally weak because of it and it doesn't bother me in the least). Conversely, I did a little questing on creepside on Sunday. In 2 hours I gained 2.5k infamy and half that in commies. A creep can literally quest his way to being competitive, and in my opinion, far more easily that a freep (assuming one does it my way: solo).
You see, that's just the thing. If you can go back in this thread and find where I said it was balanaced, we might see eye to eye. As it stands, you obviously read into my comments what you want to read. I stand by my opinions.
I still don't really understand the point you're trying to make?
That the game is balanced? That creeps are fine? The expectation that new creeps should face a month of pve and being destroyed is fun and fine? That leveling a freep takes the same amount of time as ranking one of the weaker creep classes?
That you can magically walk away from a warden? That playing a warg is representative? That starting to play another creep and giving up for the fotm is a good thing?
Please enlighten me ^^
FYI My points simply are that creeps are weaker than freeps in almost all cases (with a decent level of competence both sides), that ranking a new creep via pvp is painful and frustrating (when it should be fun and encouraged), Moors pve is boring and shouldn't be necessary and finally:
One does not simply walk away from a warden...
PS. My second champ (not sure why i leveled a second one ^^) took a week of about 6 hours a day to level from 0-65, then in RoI I leveled him to 75 in ONE DAY. About 8 hours of hard, blue bar questing. With the new barter wallet I had him in 4/6 Draigoch, Blue crafted helm and shoulders, 75 2nd agers and crafted jewels etc that same day. You could argue that I spent time on alts to get him his gear, fine but you can't do that on creep except maybe to pick up 1 futile rank of audacity.
Last edited by Bels_illuminati; Aug 10 2012 at 04:35 AM.
Lieutenant Belegardo the Veteran, Reaver-Foe, Stalker-Foe, Rank 10 Warden
If you want raw statistics just look at theblackappendage, I'm sure they will most likely back up his points. Monsterplay forums are generally a creep view, and/or, op freep view on things. Either way, you never get a real moderately illustrated picture on where the moors balance trend is at.
One big problem that I at least think is a major issue with the moors is how freeps only have one hard counter against creeps. And, that is the runekeeper.
Every other class can be totally accounted for with a well balanced creep crew. The only problem is, that it's a lot more difficult to counter a cluster of rks with full attunement with a lot of support. And unfortunately, that is exactly where the game has been for the past couple years.
Everything else is wishy washy imo. Wardens are a super strong class, but you never hear anyone saying..."Man if we don't kill that warden on stab, we are going to get destroyed." Heck, if I ever hear that, then I think that'll be my que to drop group. In turn, what you should be hearing is...."There's 4 rk's out there just destroying us, lets get some ff on them."
I still don't really understand the point you're trying to make?
Well, it was in the very first paragraph I posted in this thread. You should try reading insteat of just assuming you already know what someone else has to say.
That the game is balanced? That creeps are fine? The expectation that new creeps should face a month of pve and being destroyed is fun and fine? That leveling a freep takes the same amount of time as ranking one of the weaker creep classes?
That you can magically walk away from a warden? That playing a warg is representative? That starting to play another creep and giving up for the fotm is a good thing?
Please enlighten me ^^
Nah, you're not worth it.
BTW, warg was the first creep class I rolled (over 5 years ago).
It's totally a rage post. I hope Turbine does play creepside because then they'd know the situation is nowhere near as dire as the whiners make it out to be. My warg does just fine in both group play and solo. Similarly, my burg and LM simply can't beat certain players.
Ok your first sentence(s). So you're trying to say that you think the moors is fine? But when people question the use of the warg to reach such a decision there is still no real answer to this. And saying your burg and LM can't beat certain players, is that players who are better than you, or class types you can't beat? Pretty important distinction.
And playing new creeps a year, three years, anytime before the current build is irrelevant to the discussion. I played a hunter at release, I also played him during Moria OPness, none of it has any bearing whatsoever on this discussion.
As for everything else, if you can't come up with answers to my (pretty basic) questions, which are fully justified based on other things you have said then surely either you can't be confident of your position, or you can't honestly believe the moors 'nowhere near as dire' as the 'whiners' make out.
For example the whole walking away from a warden thing, I still haven't heard any justifiable evidence for this in the current state of the game except for one anecdote that you managed it once sometime whenever. To discuss balance and whether it is not that bad, we have to look at classes honestly. I know wardens aare too powerful, I fully admit it and I enjoy playing him less because of it. I also know wargs are the strongest creep class. Making judgments based on wargs is like saying guardians, cappies, LMs and hunters are all OP because hey, minstrels are OP.
There is an enormous difference between whining and striving for improved pvp and better balance.
Lieutenant Belegardo the Veteran, Reaver-Foe, Stalker-Foe, Rank 10 Warden
If you want raw statistics just look at theblackappendage, I'm sure they will most likely back up his points. Monsterplay forums are generally a creep view, and/or, op freep view on things. Either way, you never get a real moderately illustrated picture on where the moors balance trend is at.
One big problem that I at least think is a major issue with the moors is how freeps only have one hard counter against creeps. And, that is the runekeeper.
Every other class can be totally accounted for with a well balanced creep crew. The only problem is, that it's a lot more difficult to counter a cluster of rks with full attunement with a lot of support. And unfortunately, that is exactly where the game has been for the past couple years.
Everything else is wishy washy imo. Wardens are a super strong class, but you never hear anyone saying..."Man if we don't kill that warden on stab, we are going to get destroyed." Heck, if I ever hear that, then I think that'll be my que to drop group. In turn, what you should be hearing is...."There's 4 rk's out there just destroying us, lets get some ff on them."
Acacia 1. Everyone else, 0.
Really? You never hear anything about minis healing? On E, whenever it's RvR, all I hear is "Man, their healing is so OP. We can't take anything down"... Why focus on the 4 rks blowing you up if you can't kill them due to the 2 minis, 2 cappys, and 2 rks healing them?
And, btw, a warden can greatly help to destroy a creep group if they're a noob and only spam onslaught. -120% incoming heals = dead creep.
And what are you talking about "only 1 hard counter for creeps"? It's not like rks can go in and take out a craid by themselves... in fact, an unsupported rk is dinner for a craid. They are a pain when supported by healers thus making the healers the worse pain for the craid.
Last edited by Samus1111111; Aug 10 2012 at 10:13 AM.
Ahhh I see what you did there!
Getting the forumfolk here all riled up with those provoking posts filled with balderdash! Nicely played, you must be going "hohohoho feed me your rageeeeeeeeee" behind that monitor, yea?
Or atleast I hope thats what you intended to do. If not...........then you sincerely have my condolences.
Everything else is wishy washy imo. Wardens are a super strong class, but you never hear anyone saying..."Man if we don't kill that warden on stab, we are going to get destroyed." Heck, if I ever hear that, then I think that'll be my que to drop group. In turn, what you should be hearing is...."There's 4 rk's out there just destroying us, lets get some ff on them."
Acacia 1. Everyone else, 0.
see, the reason people probably don't cry about wardens is because they don't use the right skills or gear. have fun with that stupid healing debuff lol, i actually just now found out that it stacks from the SAME warden. that thing is OP in any group setting with a healer. and good luck killing a warden in any group setting if they don't want to die. in any case, if you do kill them, it takes a fair amount of time.
see i don't mean to be personal here, but the people who don't understand the disparities between freeps and creeps (you, again no offense) are the people who don't know how to play their freeps to their fullest potential. the freeps that DO take advantage of their class and play it like a beast are the ones who realize how stupid it can be if they want it to be.
that's why i asked acacia to come onto BW one night and watch a raid v raid and see the farmage that freeps can dish out. you're welcome to come too
Last edited by IGolbezI; Aug 10 2012 at 08:27 PM.
Shock and Awe
Hydra - Captain. Kraken - Guard. Ra - Warg
Ok your first sentence(s). So you're trying to say that you think the moors is fine?
I said no such thing, which is what makes it impossible to continue with you.
And playing new creeps a year, three years, anytime before the current build is irrelevant to the discussion. I played a hunter at release, I also played him during Moria OPness, none of it has any bearing whatsoever on this discussion.
Creeps are far better off now than they were back then. Anyone who thinks otherwise has revisionist memories. I remember being a reaver during the CJ stun period. We have a burglar on our server who ranked basically just sitting in a raid stunning poor charging reavers. I've already mentioned MoM B6. Prior to MoM, I was a terrible player on freepside yet I could destroy most creeps with both my burg and LM. Again, SoA wasn't the creepside utopia some people like to think it was.
For example the whole walking away from a warden thing,
Oh, I really don't care. For one thing, I meant it metaphorically and you were too obtuse to realize this and took it as meaning literally "walking away" so I just rolled with you. The real answer is, every creep class I can think of has a way to just drop the fight and escape. I.e., unlike the poor hunter caught by a warg, YOU DON'T NEED TO FIGHT GOD MODE WARDENS. Is that clear enough for you?
Anyway, in all seriousness, enjoy the thread. You can have the last laugh.
Really? You never hear anything about minis healing? On E, whenever it's RvR, all I hear is "Man, their healing is so OP. We can't take anything down"... Why focus on the 4 rks blowing you up if you can't kill them due to the 2 minis, 2 cappys, and 2 rks healing them?
And, btw, a warden can greatly help to destroy a creep group if they're a noob and only spam onslaught. -120% incoming heals = dead creep.
And what are you talking about "only 1 hard counter for creeps"? It's not like rks can go in and take out a craid by themselves... in fact, an unsupported rk is dinner for a craid. They are a pain when supported by healers thus making the healers the worse pain for the craid.
I don't think you grasped what I was saying there. It is the internet afterall. The whole point with the warden/rk thing has nothing to do with anything your saying here. It's a simple pecking order. You don't kill wardens first when there are more threatening and prioritizing targets around. That's all that was.
I know wardens are a very strong class. I even said it. Is it really necessary to explain why you should rather kill an rk over a warden?
And, the last part of your post. Were you even reading my post, or did you just quote it up just because? Here's a snip that maybe you didn't read.
"The only problem is, that it's a lot more difficult to counter a cluster of rks with full attunement with a lot of support. And unfortunately, that is exactly where the game has been for the past couple years."
Support is mentioned there. Obviously 4 unsupported rk's can be easily taken care of. Maybe you could answer it though. What is a hard counter against a cluster of rk's with support?
Originally Posted by IGolbezI
see, the reason people probably don't cry about wardens is because they don't use the right skills or gear. have fun with that stupid healing debuff lol, i actually just now found out that it stacks from the SAME warden. that thing is OP in any group setting with a healer. and good luck killing a warden in any group setting if they don't want to die. in any case, if you do kill them, it takes a fair amount of time.
see i don't mean to be personal here, but the people who don't understand the disparities between freeps and creeps (you, again no offense) are the people who don't know how to play their freeps to their fullest potential. the freeps that DO take advantage of their class and play it like a beast are the ones who realize how stupid it can be if they want it to be.
that's why i asked acacia to come onto BW one night and watch a raid v raid and see the farmage that freeps can dish out. you're welcome to come too
Once again, I said wardens are a strong class. So, what are you talking about? This debate is almost silly. All I was trying to relate was that a creep raid isn't going to be attacking wardens first. Would you attack a warden first???
And, I loved the "I don't mean to be personal here". You just want to let me down lightly eh? I don't think you even understood what I was trying to say, yet; I'm the one who just doesn't understand? Quite a rather confusing exchange of misunderstandings there!
I've been on brandy, and i've seen fights go both ways.
I said no such thing, which is what makes it impossible to continue with you.
Creeps are far better off now than they were back then. Anyone who thinks otherwise has revisionist memories. I remember being a reaver during the CJ stun period. We have a burglar on our server who ranked basically just sitting in a raid stunning poor charging reavers. I've already mentioned MoM B6. Prior to MoM, I was a terrible player on freepside yet I could destroy most creeps with both my burg and LM. Again, SoA wasn't the creepside utopia some people like to think it was.
Oh, I really don't care. For one thing, I meant it metaphorically and you were too obtuse to realize this and took it as meaning literally "walking away" so I just rolled with you. The real answer is, every creep class I can think of has a way to just drop the fight and escape. I.e., unlike the poor hunter caught by a warg, YOU DON'T NEED TO FIGHT GOD MODE WARDENS. Is that clear enough for you?
Anyway, in all seriousness, enjoy the thread. You can have the last laugh.
Dude I just quoted you saying it isn't 'as dire' and that wargs are 'fine'. I get that you're being over defensive rather than admit to being wrong but to just blindly stumble along, humming madly to yourself, is quite concerning.
And to say that things are better than they have been?? I mean, just no. Again the problem is your examples, you think that because LMs and burglars aren't at their strongest then balance is at its best! No, it's because of diminishing returns changes, constant CC nerfs and LMs just being the weakest freep as a result right now. Please stop focusing on one or two classes in your search for balance examples. And please stop going back to irrelevant times in the past, as I said: all that matters is the current build.
And that poor hunter which can't escape, and you can't think of a creep class that can drop combat. How does a reaver escape? They have fewer options (slow and hope) than a hunter (slow, daze, fear). For that matter the only way a WL or defiler can truly escape is by being near enough to npcs/creeps and hoping that the freep is incompetent or playing one of the weaker classes.
There isn't really much point continuing the discussion because whilst I have tried to answer all your points and questions you still haven't even tried to answer pretty much any of mine or even defend your own to any reasonable degree.
Lieutenant Belegardo the Veteran, Reaver-Foe, Stalker-Foe, Rank 10 Warden
Dude I just quoted you saying it isn't 'as dire' and that wargs are 'fine'. I get that you're being over defensive rather than admit to being wrong but to just blindly stumble along, humming madly to yourself, is quite concerning.
Okay there is definitely a lot of confusion going on here. What you are doing is cherry picking specific words, for whatever agenda, and not bothering to actually listen to the entire thought of what Acacia was really saying. Lets rewind to his original post to the segment in which you cherry picked words.
Originally Posted by Acacia
It's totally a rage post. I hope Turbine does play creepside because then they'd know the situation is nowhere near as dire as the whiners make it out to be. My warg does just fine in both group play and solo. Similarly, my burg and LM simply can't beat certain players.
To help, I emboldened and italicized the specific words you quoted. Sure, the choice of words were not in the best taste, but its pvp forums....and thats just unfortunately the standard flavor. Now with that in, and out of the grey area, I'll do my best to interpret this post rationally. What Acacia is saying is that, creeps are nowhere nearly in as bad a situation they seem to believe they are in. This can actually be backed up by raw statistics. They are real, and they are out there.....you can't argue facts. Creeps still gain >= infamy than freeps do renown overall worldwide. So, in reality, the situation is not as "dire" as a lot of people would rather lead you to believe.
The second quote ("fine") relates to how he believes that his warg does just fine against freeps. Which I believe somewhere in your posts you probably agreed with him here. Wargs are absolutely fine, and extremely self efficient against freeps. Once again, the data is there, its real, and not an opinion. Wargs do extremely well in the moors, and thats probably why you see an overwhelming majority of creeps playing wargs.
Let me just say, there is nothing defensive about his post rather than him defending it against everyone else. You created the defensive approach theory entirely on your own merit.
He also made a personal perspective on how his burg and lm can't beat certain players, and there again, is no problem there. It is an opinion in which I disagree with (because I have a well geared burg, and I have beat just about everyone on our server), but he's not portraying that it isn't possible for anyone else. Good gear, good players, people who know various mechanics of other classes....generally speaking, "better" players still beat him. He never denied that.
Originally Posted by Bels_illuminati
And to say that things are better than they have been?? I mean, just no. Again the problem is your examples, you think that because LMs and burglars aren't at their strongest then balance is at its best! No, it's because of diminishing returns changes, constant CC nerfs and LMs just being the weakest freep as a result right now. Please stop focusing on one or two classes in your search for balance examples. And please stop going back to irrelevant times in the past, as I said: all that matters is the current build.
Well, from the begining to now its really hard to gauge where things are. If you were here during the "golden age" of pvp for freeps, when a loremaster could control half a creep raid, and single highhandedly hold off a raid of creeps trying to take a keep......then yes, things have come a very very long long way. Honestly imo, after U6, things are pretty darn close right now. Freeps still have the rk wild card (which imo is the deciding factor), but other than that, its pretty gosh darn close to a good world pvp balance.
Originally Posted by Bels_illuminati
And that poor hunter which can't escape, and you can't think of a creep class that can drop combat. How does a reaver escape? They have fewer options (slow and hope) than a hunter (slow, daze, fear). For that matter the only way a WL or defiler can truly escape is by being near enough to npcs/creeps and hoping that the freep is incompetent or playing one of the weaker classes.
Situational. Hunters generally have a harder time killing wargs than wargs do killing hunters. Sure, the really good, well geared hunters can hold there own, but the moors isn't and never will be a conglomerate of the best of the best. Even then, it's still situational. Reavers btw do have resilence, and you can double chain it at that. It's saved my reaver quite a bit.
The rest of this, I'm not sure if your specifically basing it off against a warden or what....but it doesn't matter really. Everyone knows wardens are awesome, everyone agrees with that, there hasn't been an instance where nobody disagreed that wardens are extremely good. Also, its not impossible to get away from a warden, there are many ways you can. Reavers can resilience away into a keep, defliers can hot away into a keep (or spend 10minutes fighting), wargs can sprint and ignore you, weavers can wte and retreat, ba's can probably MT and make it to a keep after they drop skirmish and hinder you from 40m away, wl's can probably just run away grip, quitters, etc.....to a keep. Wardens are op, but they aren't scary.
Originally Posted by Bels_illuminati
There isn't really much point continuing the discussion because whilst I have tried to answer all your points and questions you still haven't even tried to answer pretty much any of mine or even defend your own to any reasonable degree.
A discussion requires some degree of discipline....that is, if your actually looking for a good discussion.
Ahhh I see what you did there!
Getting the forumfolk here all riled up with those provoking posts filled with balderdash! Nicely played, you must be going "hohohoho feed me your rageeeeeeeeee" behind that monitor, yea?
Or atleast I hope thats what you intended to do. If not...........then you sincerely have my condolences.
I've been on brandy, and i've seen fights go both ways.
i guess i didn't understand your point
for instance
i sort of saw you saying acadia or w/e his name is 1 everyone else 0 even though he's ignoring half the points and says he plays a warg lol, the hands down easiest of creep classes and the most powerful atm
then you say
If you want raw statistics just look at theblackappendage, I'm sure they will most likely back up his points. Monsterplay forums are generally a creep view, and/or, op freep view on things. Either way, you never get a real moderately illustrated picture on where the moors balance trend is at.
you're right. if you want RAW STATISTICS that have NO MEANING you go to theblackappendage. it's a leaderboard for a reason.
what's your point? inf/renown gain isn't indicative of anything. you have absolutely no idea who is doing tons of quests, who is farming, who is grouping, who is soloing, raiding, who is playing for rating and who is playing for points, time played, how good they are, the list goes on and on and on. yet youre saying that creeps aren't in a "dire" situation because they get more infamy? in a raid you get 14 points per kill, earning FAR more inf overall than you would a solo kill. on top of that, it's generally accepted that creeps quest more than freeps. it's logical. so are you seriously saying that you've taken into account and properly analyzed EXACTLY who is raiding and who isn't? who is doing more quests and who is doing more killing? how many people are in each group? how many kills they get? how many gold tags there are at each fight?
of course you haven't, that's realistically impossible.
there's nothing you can gather from theblackappendage, other than renown and infamy gain. this was all talked about back when people were primarily using surugistats.
and btw, lots of people take offense to the smallest of things, so i try to keep things nice when i can help it, which is why i said no offense. people love to latch on to condescending tones and form straw men arguments/change the subject. next time ill just be a dick to you if you want lol
Originally Posted by Kurtdg21
I've been on brandy, and i've seen fights go both ways.
you bring up my overall point
you've "been" on BW? ok lol, i don't really know what that means considering i have no idea what was out when you were "on" BW
there are a lot of freeps that suck. that's cool. what does that matter? when the good ones come out, it's just stupid. anyone on BW can say i'm biased for being in S&A, but the fact of the matter is, when we make a freep raid with 12 of us and 12 other good, ranked freeps that we know, there is massive QQ about ez moding in creep OOC because creeps don't ever get kills. they just get ruthlessly, relentlessly farmed. even if there is a good, skilled, and ranked oofs/cohorts/witch king's raid with mere or arrik or evil leading and calling in gold tags at map spots.
you can say bad freep raids make things balanced because the good creeps win in that situation, but that has no effect on objective balance.
Shock and Awe
Hydra - Captain. Kraken - Guard. Ra - Warg
i sort of saw you saying acadia or w/e his name is 1 everyone else 0 even though he's ignoring half the points and says he plays a warg lol, the hands down easiest of creep classes and the most powerful atm
Yea I still think we're not on the same page. Acacia made valid points that reflected his observation. OMG yes, he said he plays warg! And, your right, it is hands down the easiest of creep classes to play, and arguably about the most powerful. Yet everyone ridicules him when he says he does "fine" on the warg. I mean, how should he be doing? Its like being a dog and chasing your own tail..basically he's ignoring half the points because there isn't any point that disagrees with why he shouldn't be "fine" on the warg. Maybe another using another analogy....like punching yourself, and wondering why you have a headache the next day maybe may iron it out?
Originally Posted by IGolbezI
you're right. if you want RAW STATISTICS that have NO MEANING you go to theblackappendage. it's a leaderboard for a reason.
what's your point? inf/renown gain isn't indicative of anything. you have absolutely no idea who is doing tons of quests, who is farming, who is grouping, who is soloing, raiding, who is playing for rating and who is playing for points, time played, how good they are, the list goes on and on and on. yet youre saying that creeps aren't in a "dire" situation because they get more infamy? in a raid you get 14 points per kill, earning FAR more inf overall than you would a solo kill. on top of that, it's generally accepted that creeps quest more than freeps. it's logical. so are you seriously saying that you've taken into account and properly analyzed EXACTLY who is raiding and who isn't? who is doing more quests and who is doing more killing? how many people are in each group? how many kills they get? how many gold tags there are at each fight?
of course you haven't, that's realistically impossible.
there's nothing you can gather from theblackappendage, other than renown and infamy gain. this was all talked about back when people were primarily using surugistats.
and btw, lots of people take offense to the smallest of things, so i try to keep things nice when i can help it, which is why i said no offense. people love to latch on to condescending tones and form straw men arguments/change the subject. next time ill just be a dick to you if you want lol
We all have choices.
For instance: I could either "want RAW STATISTICS that have NO MEANING you go to theblackappendage. it's a leaderboard for a reason.":
OR
I could just take your very modest wall of text for gospel. You do have some valid points though, I ain't gonna lie. I have no idea who is doing what in the moors. Like farming, raiding, grouping, who's good that's currently on, playing for rating, what faction quests more, who kills more, whos on, who went to the bathroom in the middle of a raid, who got a phone call, who had to afk because the delivery guy is at there doorstep....etc, etc, etc. I'll get right on that, and i'll do my best to foward it to theblackappendage! Which btw, they do a very awesome service for lotro pvp.
All I can factually provide are the tools that have been very graciously offered. The rest is just things we all observe, and I'm sorry if you disagree with me.....which is strange because I still think freeps are overall stronger because of the wildcard RK class.
So, yes.....what is your point? I think freeps are stronger, and I gave my reason as to why I think that. No, I don't think creeps are in a "dire" state. Not even close.
Originally Posted by IGolbezI
you bring up my overall point
you've "been" on BW? ok lol, i don't really know what that means considering i have no idea what was out when you were "on" BW
there are a lot of freeps that suck. that's cool. what does that matter? when the good ones come out, it's just stupid. anyone on BW can say i'm biased for being in S&A, but the fact of the matter is, when we make a freep raid with 12 of us and 12 other good, ranked freeps that we know, there is massive QQ about ez moding in creep OOC because creeps don't ever get kills. they just get ruthlessly, relentlessly farmed. even if there is a good, skilled, and ranked oofs/cohorts/witch king's raid with mere or arrik or evil leading and calling in gold tags at map spots.
you can say bad freep raids make things balanced because the good creeps win in that situation, but that has no effect on objective balance.
I'm glad you have success raiding. I have the same success, but not without runekeepers, well geared freeps, and overall good pvpers.......that is if I'm playing against the good creeps. If not, entirely different story.
I keep laughing hysterically at the "Rk wild card".
Long story short, creeps are getting buffed, you need a hug.
If you can't handle playing a freep against the super mega OP creeps, then
Nope
You like it? I do to.
They are, but you'll have to come to Nim if you want to hug me.
I stopped legitamately playing my warg a long time ago. Probably around the time you started playing the game.
Keep up the good work though! R11 must have been truly hard to acquire considering the consistently dire creep situation! My reaver is only r10 , and I really want the blueberry skin.
Keep up the good work though! R11 must have been truly hard to acquire considering the consistently dire creep situation! My reaver is only r10 , and I really want the blueberry skin.
Fissure on Riddermark == Render Bender on Dwarrowdelf.
Im sure he got around to r9 and then some on DD before transfering to riddermark.
And trust me brother, to get r9 on DD as a reaver with a former starhugger kin constantly slaughtering creeps and rolling the map blue at the drop of a hat, is indeed "good work". R7 was a big achievement on DD back at that time, since most creeps would hit r5/r6 and quit playing due to getting constantly farmed over and over and over again.
You got no idea what you are talking about.
Fissure on Riddermark == Render Bender on Dwarrowdelf.
Im sure he got around to r9 and then some on DD before transfering to riddermark.
And trust me brother, to get r9 on DD as a reaver with a former starhugger kin constantly slaughtering creeps and rolling the map blue at the drop of a hat, is indeed "good work". R7 was a big achievement on DD back at that time, since most creeps would hit r5/r6 and quit playing due to getting constantly farmed over and over and over again.
You got no idea what you are talking about.
It also helps that Fissure is a very talented reaver. He can pretty much blow up any freep.
*edit (except a healing minnie)
Last edited by RGilthanas; Aug 11 2012 at 01:19 PM.
Fissure on Riddermark == Render Bender on Dwarrowdelf.
Im sure he got around to r9 and then some on DD before transfering to riddermark.
And trust me brother, to get r9 on DD as a reaver with a former starhugger kin constantly slaughtering creeps and rolling the map blue at the drop of a hat, is indeed "good work". R7 was a big achievement on DD back at that time, since most creeps would hit r5/r6 and quit playing due to getting constantly farmed over and over and over again.
You got no idea what you are talking about.
Fissure trolled, and I responded appropriately.
And, I got no idea what your talking about, other than you slaughter creeps. What point of mine are you argueing against? Is it why I think freeps are stronger, or why I think creeps are not in a "dire" situation?
1. Do you agree/disagree that freeps are stronger?
2. Do you agree/disagree that creeps are in a dire situation?
I'm sure Fissure is a good reaver. I'll take everyone's word on it, but even the best players enjoy trolling every once in a while.
I stopped legitamately playing my warg a long time ago. Probably around the time you started playing the game.
Rofl, the fallacy went wrong. You really should do your homework before trying to diminish someone, otherwise it could come back and bite you in the butt.
While I agree with you on the RK point, I wonder if you honestly think Minstrels are ok. Have you talked to the experienced ones? Have you seen most of them stop playing their toons cuz they find it extremely easy and broken? Do you ever wonder why you can see a new minstrel every 1 1/2 week? I invite you to reasssess the situation, if you are interested, of course.
This is what experienced and competent freeps should be doing against experienced and competent creeps. This is the current freep power. Now compare it to the brainless fotm situation on Nimrodel with 8 minstrels, 6 rks and a couple captains, mostly grouped, standing at ec waiting for solo creeps to do idk what. I doubt you will get a clear picture of the unbalance from the server´s situation.
Because people who have coinciding opinions don't exist or anything
I'm not sayin it's aliens
Originally Posted by Yagashura
Fissure on Riddermark == Render Bender on Dwarrowdelf.
Im sure he got around to r9 and then some on DD before transfering to riddermark.
And trust me brother, to get r9 on DD as a reaver with a former starhugger kin constantly slaughtering creeps and rolling the map blue at the drop of a hat, is indeed "good work". R7 was a big achievement on DD back at that time, since most creeps would hit r5/r6 and quit playing due to getting constantly farmed over and over and over again.
You got no idea what you are talking about.
Cute bro-love. Do me a favor and go check out nimrodel leaderboards and consider how long the server has been around (the freep boards) And go ahead on speculate on why it looks that way.
Last edited by Phenylcyclinide; Aug 11 2012 at 08:48 PM.
All I can factually provide are the tools that have been very graciously offered.
but they don't tell you anything analytical... so why do you need to provide them at all, i dont get it
The rest is just things we all observe, and I'm sorry if you disagree with me.....which is strange because I still think freeps are overall stronger because of the wildcard RK class.
So, yes.....what is your point? I think freeps are stronger, and I gave my reason as to why I think that. No, I don't think creeps are in a "dire" state. Not even close.
exactly, my point being, i don't think a lot of people have "observed" how badly creeps can get farmed. i don't follow you on the RK thing - hunters have far more dps and can sustain it. why is it RKs that make freepside stronger?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMzsRuFdiJIhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1hpF71bQwU i am literally doing nothing except jumping around hitting rally cry lol. sometimes i tab out to change music, just soaking up renown. putting defilers in combat and interrupting WLs would have been overoverkill. of course those are a bit old but you know what's changed since then? now you have to move three feet out of blight and kill any flayer wargs before they can even touch you. so much more difficult.
what is my point? if freeps dont want to die, they dont have to.
Shock and Awe
Hydra - Captain. Kraken - Guard. Ra - Warg
Rofl, the fallacy went wrong. You really should do your homework before trying to diminish someone, otherwise it could come back and bite you in the butt.
Speaking of homework meow. If you read where he diminished my points first, then maybe you wouldn't have jumped the gun on with a declaration of "fallacy going wrong". A more, unbiased intermediary might have backed up the person who was unreasonably diminished first, without any credible thought might I add, before immediately jumping on the bandwagon.
I'm not worried about anymore bitmarks. I've got plenty already, and the wargs won't be satisified until there isn't 'a butt left.
Originally Posted by avrilo
While I agree with you on the RK point, I wonder if you honestly think Minstrels are ok. Have you talked to the experienced ones? Have you seen most of them stop playing their toons cuz they find it extremely easy and broken? Do you ever wonder why you can see a new minstrel every 1 1/2 week? I invite you to reasssess the situation, if you are interested, of course.
What do I think about minstrels? Well, how often do you see Izo out there? And, why is he still rank 9 after 2+ years? I've played him a couple times in our kin raids when we had no other healer option, but even freeps need heals, and minstrels are pretty dang good at healing. RK's imo are probably better moors healers, but i'd rather see them dpsing. Warspeech mini's are ridiculously strong, if they decide to play strictly in WS. Honestly though, i'd rather see all mini's in full-time warspeech in the moors, because it makes it that much easier to kill everyone else around them. They need a delay time after dropping WS, thats overly obvious imo. At least 10seconds min.
This is what experienced and competent freeps should be doing against experienced and competent creeps. This is the current freep power. Now compare it to the brainless fotm situation on Nimrodel with 8 minstrels, 6 rks and a couple captains, mostly grouped, standing at ec waiting for solo creeps to do idk what. I doubt you will get a clear picture of the unbalance from the server´s situation.
Mmmm, that was an extremely nice video to watch! You don't see that very often, total props to the freeps in that vid. They were a lot more prepared, a lot more. The creeps seemed just not on their game, not even close. Creeps just ran in, and they paid heavily for it. Plus it doesn't hurt to bad to be branded up and ready for the creep charge! Little pay to win never hurts when your doubly outnumbered.
I've got a vid for you as well. IMO a much, much, much more realistic view on balance than that video.
but they don't tell you anything analytical... so why do you need to provide them at all, i dont get it
We've already been over this. I'm just gonna paraphrase it this time. I can either use the information that has been very graciously provided (and they don't have to do it at all), OR, I can just take your word for it. Atm, thats as clear as I can make it.
Originally Posted by IGolbezI
exactly, my point being, i don't think a lot of people have "observed" how badly creeps can get farmed. i don't follow you on the RK thing - hunters have far more dps and can sustain it. why is it RKs that make freepside stronger? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMzsRuFdiJIhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1hpF71bQwU i am literally doing nothing except jumping around hitting rally cry lol. sometimes i tab out to change music, just soaking up renown. putting defilers in combat and interrupting WLs would have been overoverkill. of course those are a bit old but you know what's changed since then? now you have to move three feet out of blight and kill any flayer wargs before they can even touch you. so much more difficult.
I once farmed 6 greenie reavers on my burg for about 20minutes straight, at grams, before I finally had to hips away. The balance is just awful! Btw, its 2012, and that cappy is wearing helegrod armor (which looks hideous). There's a thousand other videos out there for you to explore, and I bet you'll find a whole lot more that are similiar. In fact, I bet you'll find similar videos of creeps doing the same thing! I don't want to sound too redundant, but that was another example of cherry picking.
Originally Posted by IGolbezI
what is my point? if freeps dont want to die, they dont have to.
Thats an easy point to refute. All I have to do is change one word. If creeps dont want to die, they dont have to. Gramsfoot and GV are quite safe nowadays.
Surely, you have a solid argument somewhere. All I'm saying is that creeps are not in as dire situation that so many people would lead to believe. A one year old video? For real? It was a good group though, they did a damn good job.
Check it out, I'll be looking forward to your comments.
Are you saying that the balance is in favor of creeps because of that vid (if not, ignore the rest of my post and I don't understand your point....)? If so, then that's a terrible vid to base your opinion on. Not to step on any toes (which I will :P), those were terrible freeps. No focus fire and the wl was running freaking commander's stance... that means there was no melee on him meaning that the freeps are terribad... sure, the creeps lost some, but in the end they won. Seriously, with 7 wls and 3 defilers, there shouldn't have been enough dps in that group to burn through the freep healing unless there either wasn't much healing or the healers sucked. On E, we never run 1 TA since freep healing is so over the top. We have to split dps in order to split heals. Any good freep group will be able to out-heal a craid's dps if it's focused on one target...
Check it out, I'll be looking forward to your comments.
Nothing personal...each server has it's own style, but the WL's on E would sell their organs to be able to basically just stand around for that long completely unmolested.
Are you saying that the balance is in favor of creeps because of that vid (if not, ignore the rest of my post and I don't understand your point....)? If so, then that's a terrible vid to base your opinion on. Not to step on any toes (which I will :P), those were terrible freeps. No focus fire and the wl was running freaking commander's stance... that means there was no melee on him meaning that the freeps are terribad... sure, the creeps lost some, but in the end they won. Seriously, with 7 wls and 3 defilers, there shouldn't have been enough dps in that group to burn through the freep healing unless there either wasn't much healing or the healers sucked. On E, we never run 1 TA since freep healing is so over the top. We have to split dps in order to split heals. Any good freep group will be able to out-heal a craid's dps if it's focused on one target...
Holybatman. First off no. If you read anything I have been saying the past 6 or so post, I totally agree that freeps are stronger than creeps. What I disagree with, and HAVE BEEN disagreeing with the whole time is that creeps are not in some kind of dire, desperate, horrid situation. It's totally wonky rhetoric, and it needs to be addressed rationally without hand selected youtube videos that don't relate to the daily workings of open world pvmp.
If you watch the video I linked you'll see that there are tons of creeps that do die, heck every warleader has used a res by now, but they still hold on fairly well, and they manage to kill quite a lot of freeps in the process. IMO what your looking at is a good fight that happens more frequently than any of the other extremeo circumstances that have been cited as some kind of argue-mental view that places creeps into a hemorrhage of unworkability.
Its the moors, they allow all players in. Regardless of how good, bad, poorly geared, outranked, didn't buy skills, noobs.....they let everyone in so long as you pay the piper.
The moors isn't a land of the best of the best of the best. If you want that, play a different game where you can have instanced matches and more "mirrored" gameplay.
The Moors is in a pretty horrid state when; one sides healers can sustainability out heal the DPS of 6 opponents while the other sides healers can almost out heal the DPS of one.
There are lots of reasons for the huge, massive, horrid healing imbalance but the main ones are:
1) Oh &&&& skills like; In Harms Way, All Fates Entwined, Essay of Exaltation, Fellowships Heart, That Which Does Not Kill Us (I'm sure I missed one or two but you get the idea). These skills are designed to save a raid wipe in PvE if someone or perhaps a few people play poorly? Nice to know that protection from poor play extends to PvP too.... Well for one side at least.
2) Full heals: One side can full heal a target with just one skill, the other side can't. Want to guess which side?
3) Bubbles: champ, mini, cappy and RK on one side V's WL on the other.
4) Uncapped main stats: giving high spike HPS, big crits and greater crit chance. Not to mention, Creeps don't get devastate crit heals.
5) Induction set back: Creep healers simply can't function when focused, unlike mini's, cappys and RK's who can heal on the run or pop a skill and ignore induction set back.
I'm also willing to bet that if a dev diary ever suggested that a creep class (just one) was going to get a skill (just one) like I mention in 1), 2), or 5) then there would be one hell of a Freep commotion about how OP that would make Creep heals.
The Moors is in a pretty horrid state when; one sides healers can sustainability out heal the DPS of 6 opponents while the other sides healers can almost out heal the DPS of one.
Totally agree. Freeps heal a lot better than creeps. I smell an RK OP arguement coming already, and I like it.
Originally Posted by ksjock
There are lots of reasons for the huge, massive, horrid healing imbalance but the main ones are:
1) Oh &&&& skills like; In Harms Way, All Fates Entwined, Essay of Exaltation, Fellowships Heart, That Which Does Not Kill Us (I'm sure I missed one or two but you get the idea). These skills are designed to save a raid wipe in PvE if someone or perhaps a few people play poorly? Nice to know that protection from poor play extends to PvP too.... Well for one side at least.
2) Full heals: One side can full heal a target with just one skill, the other side can't. Want to guess which side?
3) Bubbles: champ, mini, cappy and RK on one side V's WL on the other.
4) Uncapped main stats: giving high spike HPS, big crits and greater crit chance. Not to mention, Creeps don't get devastate crit heals.
5) Induction set back: Creep healers simply can't function when focused, unlike mini's, cappys and RK's who can heal on the run or pop a skill and ignore induction set back.
1. I love in harms way. It's a great skill. I use it like an abussive addict uses.....abusively addictive..stuff. Captains should use it at great length. Just gotta remember to heal the cap! I do like how you think though, sure there are a lot of other cds that are &&&& skills....but the ones you mentioned, half of them just so happen to be rk skills. I'm so glad that someone can relate to some of my points.
2. Ages FTW. Once i get a 10k crit on Triumphant self buffed i'll let ya know. RK's once again ftw.
3. Bubbles smubbles. You get a wl bubble, stop focusing that target. Likewise with a cappy. Champ does a bubble, whatever. Minstrel throws up a group bubble, no sweat. RK full group big bubble is a demotivational skill. RK ftw. Push forward.
4. DPS is king. Hard denying that one. RK's benefit the most still.
5. Induction setback sucks. Definately hurts creeps more than freeps.
Originally Posted by ksjock
I'm also willing to bet that if a dev diary ever suggested that a creep class (just one) was going to get a skill (just one) like I mention in 1), 2), or 5) then there would be one hell of a Freep commotion about how OP that would make Creep heals.
You don't even have to do that. Make a new creep class that can counter tactical opness.
RK's ftw. Slick is awesome btw. Come back to vent man!
Originally Posted by ksjock
Things are indeed horrid at the moment and healing is just one aspect....
Shall we talk DPS next?
I'm open to anything. I'm still not convinced that creeps are in a dire state. They hold their own still. Granted not always, but overall, creeps still kill freeps on a daily basis, and they do it reguardless what anyone else thinks on the forums, and it looks pretty dang equal statstically speaking.
The best of the best of the best isn't what the moors is all about.
I think the main reason Creeps are doing ok is because Freeps are so OP, with big solo DPS and solo survivability mixed with at least one oh &&&& skill (except hunter, see hunter "give us an escape skill threads".) making the Freeps selfish because they don't want/need to share their renown with a fellow Freep.
A group of Creeps, even if it's just a duo, will do much better against solo players. Even if the solo players have more numbers. The solo's don't focus fire or buff/heal each other like they would in a group.
When Freeps do raid up the imbalance really shows. Creeps need to stack more healers to counter Freep focused DPS. That means that Creeps, who have lower DPS per toon, now have even less DPS to counter the Freeps better healing. Freeps don't need so many healers, because their heals are in a very good place compared to Creep DPS, so some of the RK's and mini's can DPS rather than heal. So the creep raid needs what? more healers? Vicious circle.
Seriously who's bright idea was it to give the highest HPS and DPS to the same classes anyway? Then put them on the same side?
If Freeps grouped more, even just a DPS/healer duo, than the leader boards would look very different. Actually renown/inf per player is already heavy skewed towards the Freeps. On a player by player basis Freeps already earn more renown than creeps do inf. Take out quest infamy and I bet it would be even worse.
TL;dr
Cooperative grouped play > selfish solo play.
I'm sure it wasn't a design intention to encourage selfish solo play on Freep side, they just keep on making every Freep class a "jack of all trades" (master of HPS and DPS) and the logical play style will flow from there.
stuff + Cooperative grouped play > selfish solo play.
More or less, yeah. I do think that creeps could work a little harder at it, at least in my experience, but I have never denied that freeps were leaps and bounds above creeps in raw potential. I never cared much for group play on E since half of the leaders irritated the &&&& out of me and I didn't play at the same time as the other half. I also cared more about having an interesting and fun fight which is why I chose not to roll hots/leaches against a single target. Fun fight>renown for me.
Read: the only way I could lose is if there was a good group that kept me at range and stunned/disarmed appropriately or if I intentionally nerfed myself by not using pots/brands or 1/3 of my skills. Of course I could lose 1v1 but in a straight up RvR (or half fraid v craid) fight freeps on E would never lose. Skill and the bare minimum of tactics that the BA heavy raids that seem to be popular at the moment have are simply not enough to put creeps on the same level. Frankly, I don't think creeps should be a direct match up/hard counter to freeps, but the current system just isn't fun anymore.
Unfortunately, the part I quoted isn't necessarily true. If by greater than you mean you might get more points, then sure. But you know how zerg happy a lot of the leaders on E are and that is just not fun. More points =/= higher quality.
Cmalberg - Elendilmir
-Stickygritz, Gritzwarr, and all those Gritz. Greblam
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Originally Posted by IGolbezI
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, and I really want the blueberry skin.
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Because people who have coinciding opinions don't exist or anything
Little pay to win never hurts when your doubly outnumbered.
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