Mark, be very thankful, that Turbine made the changes, before they were forced to (a point at which changes would probably have been far too late to be successful). The Global economic environment (which has not got any better this past 4 years, and is likely to deteriorate further) is having a real impact on online gaming.
That Turbine actually saw the writing on the wall, was one of the things that told me to take a look at this game.
With regard to your comments on player behaviour, all I can say is, you must have led a very sheltered gaming life. Whether pay to play or free to play (this is the first free to play I have played, other than Guild Wars), you get about the same tiny percentage of trash talking non-gamer griefers, as you always have (as a rule of thumb, on any given reasonably populated server, in any game, I find when I have between 10 and 12 characters on ignore, my 'gaming experience problem' is cured).
When online gaming was an extremely expensive pastime, with billing being per minute of connection to the game (along with per minute connection fees with your ISP), and expensive enough that some people were paying as much as £3,500 per month - over $5,000 a month equivalent - to game (seriously, some people were paying that, and the worst monthly bill I ever had was over £800), there was still that tiny percentage of trash talking non-gamer griefers.
I don't know if you were around to remember them, but PK's became so common, that Guilds were even set up as dedicated anti-PK Guilds (I ran one).
If you get more players, you will inevitably have that percentage of griefers, which Devs over the years, have provided the tools to deal with. The most significant of which, is the ability to ignore them.
Check here http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Slayer_Deeds and try to tell me with a straight face that their weren't 44 different slayer deeds in SoA that required 300 or more kills, 14 of which required 450 kills, MORE than now. You've got to be kidding me to say there's a bigger grind now because of the Store on Slayer deeds.
@Mark_J: Check Vandervahn's refutation of your claims. I think he spoke more eloquantly than me on most of them.
Yup, in SoA some of the deeds were a pain. The best skills were gotten through running the high level Angmar dungeons. because you needed a putrid slime or similar drop to complete the quests to get it.
Wychhazel: Turbine didn't forsee some global economic crisis. They took their stinker MMO (DDO, it was doing very poorly as a sub based game) and went to this type of pay system, and profits there went through the roof. When that happened, they took LotRO to this pay system.And profits went through the roof. So much so that they attracted the attention of Warner Bros.
Then the stock owners got rich(er?), and here we are.
You are the new school, before that there was the old school.
I must be ancient, my ex-wife thinks I'm pre-school
Some games do it way better than others, though, and actually try to minimize it. Will grind be completely banished from MMOs? Nope. But there's grind and then there's GRIND.
Lately, this game has raised grinding for me from merely being something MMOs do to making it an excruciatingly painful art form.
The grind HAS increased since the introduction of the Store and it has done so for the sole benefit of the Store.
Judging by all your posts in this thread, I can tell you're very angry. But if you wanted to, if would be very easy to calm down.
Yes, they are feeding business to the store. A little. But not for necessary stuff. Starlit Crystals are easy to get, and it's really only worth getting 1 on the main weapon on a DPS class. Stat Tomes are similarly optional.
As for Virtues, sure, they raised the cap. But people had been crying for them to do that for YEARS. And they didn't increase the grind to get them. In fact, they made it pretty easy to get more deeds done. None of them since Moria seem to be a grind. What makes people upset is that they're profiting off laziness, which is one thing I am OKAY with them profiting off of.
LIs are easier to perfect. Sure, there's more stuff to put in them, but in the days of random legacies and tiers, the only way to do LIs was to level them to *50* (new legacies at 10, 30, 50) and then, after spending weeks on them, if they didn't have what you wanted, you just had to trash them. Now, we only have to get 1 of any age and slot and spend time on it. The system isn't perfect, but it's way better than it was. That they profit off, again, laziness, doesn't bug me since they made it easier.
The grind HASN'T increased since the store, there are just ways to get out of the same grind (or less) as before. I avoid the store for all but my most urgent needs, and my play hasn't changed a bit since 2007. I level my virtues as much as I want (and, ironically, the most annoying virtue grinds are in pre-f2p zones). Armour and LI stuff comes faster than I can use it. Rep in the Gorge is way less annoying than it ever was in Forochel or Rivendell, and since f2p they've actually *increased* drops for old zone rep TREMENDOUSLY. Playing the way I have for 5 years, I've never felt compelled to buy a single rep, virtue, skill or craft accelerator in the store. Crafting, in particular, is so easy anymore I can't imagine why anyone would need to go faster. Materials are in such abundance, I almost need a new house. I'll hit the next tier of the guild in about 1 minute after RoR launches.
There are things that could be better, and I don't know how I feel about them preying on people's festival addictions, but unless we're suggesting that Turbine only put grind in their MMO (shocking, right) 5 years ago in the anticipation that one day there would be deed accelerators, then we can't really blame much on the store. It's even gotten better over time. I don't even have to buy empowerment scrolls anymore since they made them so easy to obtain in-game. They're only making money off "instant gratification" folk now, which I have, over the years, not been able to become. There were no deed accelerators back when I killed 450 worms in Angmar for the first time, and I won't use one the next.
Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
Well, I've been grinding for starlight crystals since they came out and I've only gotten one despite using three characters to do it. So, they haven't been easy for me to get.
Ditto stat tomes. I've actually never gotten one in-game. Even once.
And grinding for relic removal scrolls is just so...oh, wait. Those are store-only.
No wonder I get odd comments in chat when I try to put together a relic removal scroll grinding party...
Lately, this game has raised grinding for me from merely being something MMOs do to making it an excruciatingly painful art form.
I find this conclusion genuinely perplexing.
Deed totals are less than the lvl 50 areas. LIs are easier to max. Rep factions are all easier than (for example) grinding mobs in Sarnur. Honestly, I am bemused by your conclusion.
Now, it is true that there is *more* to do than there used to be. There are twice as many rep factions. There are entire areas with new deeds. We need new Lis every 10 levels. So if you're feeling ground down by years of doing the same stuff over and over I can sympathise.
To use an analogy: you seem to be arguing that the hamster wheel is being made to spin faster, so we have to run faster to keep up. I don't think it is going faster - if anything it has slowed - but it has been spinning for a long time and it would be understandable if you were starting to feel the burn. In other words, the game hasn't changed, you are just getting tired of it and you need a break.
The trend toward 2 rep factions in a zone as opposed to 1, particularly if that rep has to be maxed by grinding a few boring repeatables, has made playing through my characters less enjoyable.
Having to purchase recipes with barter tokens that I have to grind out makes crafting less enjoyable.
Having to grind out hundreds of mobs for virtues (I don't really care that the number is less at times than in other zones) has made working on my characters less enjoyable.
Having to grind LIs every time the cap is raised yearly and having more added to the game with RoR makes playing less enjoyable.
Having to grind Rhi-helvarch sigils for every single piece of crafted gear has made outfitting my characters less enjoyable.
Slowing down crafting times and taking away 10% of our crit chance has made getting mats more of a grind.
Even though this thread started out as someone talking about grind since F2P, I'm just talking about the grind in the game in general.
For me, there's too much of it. There are better, more enjoyable ways to accomplish all of the above without so much grind.
But then, I'm not one of those players that love LOTRO's grind as it is.
Well, I've been grinding for starlight crystals since they came out and I've only gotten one despite using three characters to do it. So, they haven't been easy for me to get.
Ditto stat tomes. I've actually never gotten one in-game. Even once.
And grinding for relic removal scrolls is just so...oh, wait. Those are store-only.
No wonder I get odd comments in chat when I try to put together a relic removal scroll grinding party...
Star-lit crystals ARE SUPER easy to get. Just click your friendly, neighborhood LOTRO Store button and poof...star-lit crystals for 500tp!
Well, I've been grinding for starlight crystals since they came out and I've only gotten one despite using three characters to do it. So, they haven't been easy for me to get.
Ditto stat tomes. I've actually never gotten one in-game. Even once.
...
Originally Posted by Celebria
Having to purchase recipes with barter tokens that I have to grind out makes crafting less enjoyable.
...
Having to grind Rhi-helvarch sigils for every single piece of crafted gear has made outfitting my characters less enjoyable.
Slowing down crafting times and taking away 10% of our crit chance has made getting mats more of a grind.
Your posts are leading me to believe that you have not yet discovered the Auction House. There, you don't have to "grind" for anything. Just put a little time into making money and then buy what you need. SlCs were going for around 50-60G for most of their life (have gone down now, obviously). Stat tomes for less than 100G. Sigils from maybe 15G at their peak right after Great River items to 6G.
I made 70G on each of my characters leveling from 65-75 just off selling vendor trash and looting chests and corpses. Making money in LOTRO is easy, and there are many more options for doing so than there are trying to get the actual items to drop. I'm pretty thrifty with my money, but I also don't try very hard to amass it...and somehow I'm sitting on 1700G and nothing to spend it on. Maybe I'll eye the AH for some of the elusive stat tomes. Though I've gotten through most T2 content without them.
Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
Your posts are leading me to believe that you have not yet discovered the Auction House.
Actually, I make money on the auction house all the time, but I'm not a fan of buying my way through the game there any more than I am in buying my way through it using the LOTRO Store. I like to get things on my own, but some things are so rare, it's kind of hard to do that.
They could make things a bit more accessible and then more people could have them without the grinding. But I really think they prefer us to shop rather than play.
Actually, I make money on the auction house all the time, but I'm not a fan of buying my way through the game there any more than I am in buying my way through it using the LOTRO Store. I like to get things on my own, but some things are so rare, it's kind of hard to do that.
They could make things a bit more accessible and then more people could have them without the grinding. But I really think they prefer us to shop rather than play.
Mmm, even before the store, there were things that they wanted to be rare...so rather than be able to get them yourself, you had to use the AH. Like Legendary Trait pages or the original crit crafted 1-shot stuff. If they make stuff so common that your average player will be able to get it easily, people who play MORE than average will have their characters maxed out in a week.
I agree, they do want us to shop the store. And the AH, too. They've always made the AH something of a necessity, and I don't think that's a bad thing.
I'm the same way when it comes to buying stuff--I'd rather get it myself. I'm that way with crafted stuff still. But when it comes to luck drops, I am NOT a lucky person, not since Day 1. I'll drop some dough here and there.
And Stat Tomes...I find it's very peaceful to just forget that they even exist.
Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
LIs - These are little changed from when introduced as far as grind goes. I'd even argue that since the LI revamp there is far less luck involved compared to when they were introduced and therefore less grind.
There's more of a grind because you have to get the LI up to a higher level, and relics take far more grinding. I mean, the tier 8 and 9 relics were removed because "it was too grindy to get them", but crit chances for bonus relics were also removed, and now tier 8 and 9 relics are back in the game. Not to mention grinding for scrolls to get enough points to "max out" a legendary weapon. It's a lot more work to "top out" a legendary weapon now.
Originally Posted by FundinStrongarm
Class Skill Deeds - Nothing has changed here. Same grind as ever.
Yeah, I agree.
Originally Posted by FundinStrongarm
Slayer Deeds - Very little has changed here. If anything, the number of things one has to kill has gone down, not up, and instances no longer have them. How many runs does/did it take to get the deeds done in CD, Uru and baby BG, all SoA content?
It now takes longer as more deeds have to be done -- all the +2 deeds now only offer +1.
Originally Posted by FundinStrongarm
Raid Instances - Instead of a single person getting a token of armour, everyone now gets the same amount of seals/medallions that they can then trade for armour. About the same number of runs required to get outfitted. If anything, easier, since raid gear only requires 1 successful run to equip.
It used to be, after six successful instance runs, everyone in the group had the armor. If you had a good raid group, then after 12 Rift runs, everyone had the armor. I defy you to run Draigoth or any other current end-game instance 6 or 12 times and have a full set of armor. It's more like 10 to 20 or more now.
Originally Posted by FundinStrongarm
Skirmishes - Nothing much different. A grind from the start if you wanted to do them. (And also totally optional.)
Yeah, I agree.
Originally Posted by FundinStrongarm
Commendations/Audacity - Grind for Rank/Spirit Stones/other stuff or grind for Comms. I'd argue little different from before.
It takes a lot longer for freeps to get commendations than to get stones.
Originally Posted by FundinStrongarm
Reputation
Yes, reputation is easier, but then it's always been pretty darn pointless. By the time you spend enough time to get to a decent reputation, you've always been likely to have outleveled the reputation rewards in that area (except for Lothlorien and the areas since then where reputation gates travel, etc.).
It seems to me that there's a lot more grinding involved now. I'm not even going to get into the "optionals" that basically only exist in the store (such as the skeleton horse -- seriously the drop rate for that on Bullroarer was something like three tenths of one percent. Of course, as the grind increases, more and more items in the store happen to ease the grind.
Last edited by Banaticus; Aug 09 2012 at 02:43 PM.
As a level 1 burglar, Bilbo got a pony from the Smaug The Dragon raid. Then he rolled on a 1st age Arkenstone for an alt. Tevye Topol
I think part of it is psychological: the grinds seem longer when you know there's a shortcut available in the store. I do think the grinds related to LIs have gotten worse, especially given that we've seen a couple of total resets (meaning IXP, scrolls, and legacies didn't translate to the next tier up). The shard grind has really gotten out of hand, especially given that they've really reduced the amount of shard you can get from melding old relics. I don't consider stat tomes to be relevant to this discussion; the drop rate is so low that they are de facto a store-only item.
Some grinds have been reduced a great deal; for example, leveling crafting is far easier now that it was at launch. I needed to cut just over 1000 pieces of birch to master tier 7 woodworker, whereas back in open beta I had to cut over 2000 pieces of black ash to master tier 5 - and that was nothing compared to WS and MS.
The grind for shards/sigils, while a grind, is easier but more boring than the old grind for specific named mob drops. Figuring out how to get mobs like Colnor, Snowback, Skybreaker, and Achathling - back when used a placeholder system and not a timer - was fun but it took a long time to collect enough of them, especially given that there were no crafting guilds and thus no guaranteed crits.
I do think the grinds related to LIs have gotten worse, especially given that we've seen a couple of total resets (meaning IXP, scrolls, and legacies didn't translate to the next tier up). The shard grind has really gotten out of hand, especially given that they've really reduced the amount of shard you can get from melding old relics. The grind for shards/sigils...
Yeah, when I have to grind 200-300 pieces of ore/wood/texts for 1 sigil and I need around 13 of each and that's just for one character...it gets to feeling ridiculous. And this is for crafted gear that I can't even really do much endgame with.
The trend toward 2 rep factions in a zone as opposed to 1, particularly if that rep has to be maxed by grinding a few boring repeatables, has made playing through my characters less enjoyable.
Having to purchase recipes with barter tokens that I have to grind out makes crafting less enjoyable.
Having to grind out hundreds of mobs for virtues (I don't really care that the number is less at times than in other zones) has made working on my characters less enjoyable.
Having to grind LIs every time the cap is raised yearly and having more added to the game with RoR makes playing less enjoyable.
Having to grind Rhi-helvarch sigils for every single piece of crafted gear has made outfitting my characters less enjoyable.
Slowing down crafting times and taking away 10% of our crit chance has made getting mats more of a grind.
Even though this thread started out as someone talking about grind since F2P, I'm just talking about the grind in the game in general.
For me, there's too much of it. There are better, more enjoyable ways to accomplish all of the above without so much grind.
But then, I'm not one of those players that love LOTRO's grind as it is.
Some of the things you complain about have been in the game for years before F2P. For instance, you've always had to grind something for every single piece of crafted gear, whether that's beryl shards or mithil flakes or cracked sigils. Each tier of crafting always has had longer crafting times than the tier below it.
Recipes in Loth and Mirk required rep and barter tokens to get (Glatrev ones only require rep).
While critting went down 10% on gear recipes, you can also use the crit items on mats, thus increasing crit chance for them buy 35%. There's also a scholar recipe for scrolls to increase your crit chance on mats by another 12.5%.
It sounds as though you've been unhappy with LotRO for quite some time. I hope you enjoy Unreal Tourna.......errr... GW2, where there is allegedly no grind.
you've always had to grind something for every single piece of crafted gear, whether that's beryl shards or mithil flakes or cracked sigils.
Not technically true. The equivalent of beryl shards used to be actual unique items such as the tusk of hoartusk. So you had to go find Hoartusk and kill him. That wasn't a grind. You just went out and found him. It gradually became an annoyance, however, because all the hoartusk-esque unique item droppers were farmed around the clock as their various spawn points were mapped out.
Some of the things you complain about have been in the game for years before F2P.
None of the above comments have anything to do with F2P either before or after. It's simply a list of the grinds I find to be painful in this game at this point in time.
Not technically true. The equivalent of beryl shards used to be actual unique items such as the tusk of hoartusk. So you had to go find Hoartusk and kill him. That wasn't a grind. You just went out and found him. It gradually became an annoyance, however, because all the hoartusk-esque unique item droppers were farmed around the clock as their various spawn points were mapped out.
Regarding crafting, the single use crit items are becoming harder and harder to find. Beryl shards and mithril flakes could be found in multiple places. Rare elites, nodes, and even normal mobs. As such, they are, currently, plentiful.
But!
Before Rise of Isengard, the price of a mithril flake was about </= 1g. There were multiple places to find them. Moria/Mirk/Loth dungeons, rare elites, and nodes. Contrast that with cracked sigils, which STILL go for between 6-8g on AH, and can ONLY be found in crafting nodes. I can go entire days without seeing one despite constant mat gathering. It's an exponential grind when compared to supreme tier.
I don't even want to think about what might come with Rohan.
I don't even want to think about what might come with Rohan.
This worries me, too. I'm afraid they'll slow down the crafting action bar yet again and already it's ridiculous how long it takes to process stacks of resources. I don't want to see another 10% shaved off our critting ability. And I really don't want the next "specialty" item for every single recipe to only appear once every 500 pieces of ore/wood/texts or so.
Not to mention there's likely to be yet another reputation grind (or two) in order to buy the latest recipes and cost tons of barter tokens that we'll be able to grind with three new repeatables.
This worries me, too. I'm afraid they'll slow down the crafting action bar yet again and already it's ridiculous how long it takes to process stacks of resources. I don't want to see another 10% shaved off our critting ability. And I really don't want the next "specialty" item for every single recipe to only appear once every 500 pieces of ore/wood/texts or so.
Not to mention there's likely to be yet another reputation grind (or two) in order to buy the latest recipes and cost tons of barter tokens that we'll be able to grind with three new repeatables.
The Glatrev crafting recipes have always been buyable with rep and gold. No barter tokens needed. The rep was very easy to get through normal questing. Even the Stangard recipes are easy to get but do cost tokens. Very similar to Loth and Mirk. No repeatables required.
What I don't understand is the new 'tie crafting recipes to reputation' thing. While Dunlending/Theodred rep is easy to acquire by merely questing (and I'm not talking kindred; just friend/ally), for those who have yet to purchase the quest pack, this puts them at a disadvantage to crafting. Crafting should be the sort of thing you don't NEED to do mass amounts of landscape pve. It should be simple; go out, mine resources, craft (and maybe pick up a crit item on the way). Recipes should be purchased from a vendor, as it used to be, or by landscape drop. The landscape drop is fine, as it doesn't force you to quest
I honestly did NOT like the change with recipe drops. I have stacks of scrolls I don't know what's in just in case they hold a recipe I need (because for some reason recipes don't stack)
What I don't understand is the new 'tie crafting recipes to reputation' thing.
I don't like this, either. The only reason I have alts is so I can craft different professions. I would prefer to do LOTRO's content only once with my main, but because I do a lot of crafting, I'm forced to take my alts through content I've already done in order to get reputation and barter tokens for crafting recipes. I'd much rather be able to somehow buy all my recipes from crafting vendors with silver and gold and get my guild recipies and be done with it.
The tie between crafting and reputation is yet another form of grind for me unless I want to completely give up all the crafts I've already developed. And incidentally, I did grind Great River barter tokens for crafted recipes via repeatables.
I don't like this, either. The only reason I have alts is so I can craft different professions. I would prefer to do LOTRO's content only once with my main, but because I do a lot of crafting, I'm forced to take my alts through content I've already done in order to get reputation and barter tokens for crafting recipes. I'd much rather be able to somehow buy all my recipes from crafting vendors with silver and gold and get my guild recipies and be done with it.
The tie between crafting and reputation is yet another form of grind for me unless I want to completely give up all the crafts I've already developed. And incidentally, I did grind Great River barter tokens for crafted recipes via repeatables.
Celebria,
After reading all of your posts in here, and a few elsewhere, I wonder why the hell do you still play. It sounds like you hate this game, never have any fun, and don't see yourself having any in the future.. I know if I shared your sentiments, I would have quit already. If there isn't a game I can jump into, I would play a single player game. But why play a game you hate so much?
TBH, his concerns are legitimate. One of the things about LOTRO that appealed to me at first was its casual atmosphere. But more and more it seems like just trying to play casually is a thing of the past. I have crafting mules as well, but I can't get any end-game recipes anymore without going through Lothlorien, Dunland, the Great River and (presumably) Rohan. If I personally wasn't already leveling all my alts for the heck of it I'd never have my own crafters.
Because crafting now forces you to grind to level cap in order to get recipes, it seems less casual and more, dare I say it, grindy.
A simple solution to this would be to remove the 'bind on acquire' from the rep recipes. Let me send them to my characters. Bind to account would be nice. Lord knows Turbine needs another reason to push Shared Storage
... Contrast that with cracked sigils, which STILL go for between 6-8g on AH, and can ONLY be found in crafting nodes. I can go entire days without seeing one despite constant mat gathering. It's an exponential grind when compared to supreme tier. ...
Well, then dont compare it against the obsolete outdated reference, and compare against the other way to get gear, which is instancing. B0oth have mechanics that force-slow your progression.
Originally Posted by Uron
What I don't understand is the new 'tie crafting recipes to reputation' thing. ...
New? Ever seen Lothlorien and Mirkwood recipes?
The gating via reputation is an effective method to prevent people with lowbie crafting alts to be up there with level cap crafters. This is 100% ok in my view (despite having an army of lowbie crafters). I expect though that the reputation requirements for the recipes will be lowered with or at some point after RoR release.
There's more of a grind because you have to get the LI up to a higher level, and relics take far more grinding. I mean, the tier 8 and 9 relics were removed because "it was too grindy to get them", but crit chances for bonus relics were also removed, and now tier 8 and 9 relics are back in the game. Not to mention grinding for scrolls to get enough points to "max out" a legendary weapon. It's a lot more work to "top out" a legendary weapon now.
1. Getting the LI to a higher level is much, much, much easier than pre-f2p. Anyone remember running Estilden bounties day after day after day after day after day? Or the mind-numbing crafting instances? IXP was once a precious commodity. Now, it's everywhere. And only account-bound.
2. I'm not sure I *ever* got a T9 relic. I got maybe 10 useful T8s (remember, it was random which one you got!) and I played a LOT more than I do now, and a lot more than most people. Relics are so simple to get now, and even if you DIDN'T want to put in the work for T8s, you could stop at T6 and have 95% of the bonuses of a T8. Before, relics were vastly different from tier to tier. Not like you could stop at T6 and have it be 95% as good as an Adamant Gem of Dreams.
3. As for scrolls, remember how it was with LIs before? If you didn't get the legacies you wanted at the tiers you needed, you had to throw away the ENTIRE WEAPON. That meant winning, buying, or crafting a new one and starting from scratch trying to scrape up IXP by doing insanely boring and repetitive tasks. Now, you can slowly upgrade your LIs and they will eventually be perfect without having to spend all your attention leveling one and then praying to get lucky.
It now takes longer as more deeds have to be done -- all the +2 deeds now only offer +1.
There were only a handful of deeds that got their rewards lowered, not all of the +2's. And I don't think any of the virtues were ones I traited. On the flip side, they added a ton of quest completion and explorer deeds in RoI that you get without *any* extra effort. Not to mention the reduced slayer deed numbers.
It used to be, after six successful instance runs, everyone in the group had the armor. If you had a good raid group, then after 12 Rift runs, everyone had the armor. I defy you to run Draigoth or any other current end-game instance 6 or 12 times and have a full set of armor. It's more like 10 to 20 or more now.
If you ran Draigoch 12 times, everyone in the group would have helm, shoulders, 800 Seals and 3,000 Medallions (more than enough to buy the entire set), more cloaks than the group could use, and a full complement of 2nd Age LIs. In one-fifth the amount of time weekly that it took to run an entire Rift run.
With Orthanc, true, it would take more runs if you only did T1. But T1 is world easier than the Rift ever was. If you run all T2, gear will come as quickly as the Rift. Also, in the Rift scenario, you'd have to wait a full 12 weeks to be finished. Nowadays, if you have the time, you can run the 3-man and 6-man instances (and Draigoch even after you don't need the armour) and be finished significantly sooner.
It seems to me that there's a lot more grinding involved now. I'm not even going to get into the "optionals" that basically only exist in the store (such as the skeleton horse -- seriously the drop rate for that on Bullroarer was something like three tenths of one percent.
Why would you put quotes around "optionals"? Cosmetic mounts are the very DEFINITION of optional. If you have an issue with Turbine exploiting your OCD tendencies and addictive nature (if you're a person who has to have every mount, for instance), that's a different topic.
Of course, as the grind increases, more and more items in the store happen to ease the grind.
Conspiracy theory talk. The grind HASN'T increased, aside from the normal progression of the level cap (aka, if you start a new player from scratch, they'll potentially have all the grinds of the previous level cap). They haven't added many, if any (and lowered some) extra grinds that wouldn't have been added ANYWAY, even if f2p and the store didn't exist. Yes, they're profiting off of laziness and/or instant gratification.
But if you think that without the store that Turbine was going to significantly reduce, say, the 450-kill slayer deeds or make armour magically appear on the ground, you're crazy (even though they did lower them a bit even WITH the store). Goals exist so our brains get that warm fuzzy feeling when we complete a task, however banal. It's how every video game has operated since Pong. They want us to keep paying and playing, so they need to give us stuff to do.
Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
Judging by all your posts in this thread, I can tell you're very angry. But if you wanted to, if would be very easy to calm down.
Well you couldn't be more wrong with your assessment of how I "feel". Judging from your posts in this thread I'm sure you would want to argue that you're correct and that really IS how I feel and I should just shut up and listen to you.
Posting in this thread has become pointless. If I say 'Starlight crystals were an additional grind added to the game for the benefit of the Store" I'm countered with 'but they are easy to get and you're doing it wrong'. Forget the obvious fact, that it was a grind added for the benefit of the Store.
None of the facts I've posted (with the exception of the LI Point totals) are refuted, they are simply countered with 'I don't think that's true' or 'that's not a grind'. I could say Great River (a free update) has more Slayer deeds than the entire paid Expansion of Mirkwood (a true statement) and that is clearly an increase in grind since F2P and someone would say...'No it isn't'. Really an exercise in futility to debate viewpoints like that...
If they sell an item in the Store that reduces any grind, they HAVE to increase the grind in some manner to compensate for that. MMOs need grind and this game was no exception prior to F2P. There's no way Turbine can afford to reduce Pre-F2P grind in the game with the Store and not get that grind level back up to where they want it, they NEED things to take a certain amount of time to complete in this game.
This isn't rocket science here, the title of this thread is clearly incorrect...
I don't like this, either. The only reason I have alts is so I can craft different professions. I would prefer to do LOTRO's content only once with my main, but because I do a lot of crafting, I'm forced to take my alts through content I've already done in order to get reputation and barter tokens for crafting recipes. I'd much rather be able to somehow buy all my recipes from crafting vendors with silver and gold and get my guild recipies and be done with it.
The tie between crafting and reputation is yet another form of grind for me unless I want to completely give up all the crafts I've already developed. And incidentally, I did grind Great River barter tokens for crafted recipes via repeatables.
You've touched a point that bugged me a great deal when they first did that in Lorien. Although I love playing all classes and have one (at least) of each, I and you, and others who like to be totally independent crafting-wise, were *forced* to speed level our alts in order to be able to make items for our main(s). That was one of the most horrible experiences in lotro for me, as I had to do that on 4 characters.
But it doesn't end here. Once I/we had all those characters (mostly different classes) at level cap, they left us there for a pretty long time, so we had time to take care of those characters, actually play them (not just craft with them) and enjoy repeating instances on different classes, which I consider a core aspect of fun in such a game. So that was fine. But then the expansion rythm was changed, made a lot faster, and the grind to properly equip your character was multiplied (and don't anybody dare say the opposite... the number of "coins" required to get a piece of armor suddenly jumped through the roof since Enedwaith, there were a lot of complaints and plain disbelief here in the forum). That change in "strategy" clearly meant that you *cannot* properly take care of all those levelled capped characters. Even levelling them up the extra 10 levels feels like a grind since you have to do it in so little time, which is something you still *have* to do if you want the good recipes to make for your main(s) equipment or jewellery that are tied to reputation. But equipping all of them properly is quite impossible. I think nobody here except those who can play 24/7 and who have a thick enough hide, can claim the opposite.
The game thus switched to a single-character focus, while at the same time making it still necessary for us to level all our characters (who are all crafters in different disciplines) to the cap, but not be able to equip them using the better-than-crafted gear. And I'm not calling it "raid gear", because there's no such thing. It's just the gear with better stats, and *everybody* wants to have gear with better stats. In fact, Turbine forces you to get the gear with the best stats as you level up due to the automatic nerfs which you have to undergo simply because you gained a few levels (the same Rating will produce a smaller % stat at higher levels).
So we find ourselves in a contradictory situation, where we *must* level up several characters to the cap, but we can only afford to equip one or two at the most with the better gear. They even made it so, in Isengard, that getting high stats for damage would be no problem at all, but at the extremely heavy cost of morale and vitality. To get both, you *have* to have access to the better gear.
I think the solution to this is that Turbine change the focus of this game as follows:
- No more end game grinding at all. Since the only purpose of it is to delay/gain time to make new content, let the players enjoy the same content on different classes! The experience is not at all the same, obviously, when the instances are played on different classes, and the enjoyment is definitely there whereas the endless grind carries none at all. It will take players much more time to experience the content on several (or all) classes, giving the devs time to create new content.
That means end-game gear should be obtainable a lot faster (9x faster >> cut the cost by 9), all deeds and reputation should be completable a lot faster (cut the numbers by 9), legendary items should be levelled a lot faster, etc...
We would then truly enjoy the game on any number of classes (all of them!), and there would be so many capped characters of all classes that there would be no waiting to make up groups. And, as a very important added bonus, players will improve a lot, since they will have first hand experience with the functioning of each class.
ROFL No one here has said anything at any time about hating LOTRO. Fanboys use this inflammatory technique all the time. Someone has some valid concerns about the direction of the game and suddenly all the fanboys are screaming for them to go away and that they hate the game.
No one here hates LOTRO. We just don't happen to think Turbine is perfect like ya'll do. Saying we hate LOTRO because of some concerns is like a woman complaining to her girlfriend that she's annoyed with her husband because he squeezes the toothpaste tube at the wrong end or puts the toilet paper on the roll the wrong way. Said girlfriend then jumps to the conclusion that the woman therefore hates her husband, is planning to poison him at the first opportunity, cut him up into little pieces, and feed him to the dogs.
Drawing either conclusion doesn't even make logical sense.
You've touched a point that bugged me a great deal when they first did that in Lorien. I think the solution to this is that Turbine change the focus of this game as follows:
- No more end game grinding at all. Since the only purpose of it is to delay/gain time to make new content, let the players enjoy the same content on different classes! The experience is not at all the same, obviously, when the instances are played on different classes, and the enjoyment is definitely there whereas the endless grind carries none at all. It will take players much more time to experience the content on several (or all) classes, giving the devs time to create new content.
That means end-game gear should be obtainable a lot faster (9x faster >> cut the cost by 9), all deeds and reputation should be completable a lot faster (cut the numbers by 9), legendary items should be levelled a lot faster, etc...
We would then truly enjoy the game on any number of classes (all of them!), and there would be so many capped characters of all classes that there would be no waiting to make up groups. And, as a very important added bonus, players will improve a lot, since they have first hand experience with the functioning of each class.
Yeah, if the game were more alt-friendly (i.e. had less grind) I wouldn't have deleted so many of my other alts. I grouped with a guy recently who told me that pretty much every time Turbine comes out with a new expansion, one more of his alts goes bye-bye because the constant grind is so draining and the more characters you have to drag through it, the more painful it is. I agreed with him. As popular as alting is, there's no real need for this level of grind since most people will play through the game more than once. That takes time and therefore keeps them on the game. I think the grind right now is less about keeping people busy and more about getting us to alleviate our pain via Store purchases.
After reading all of your posts in here, and a few elsewhere, I wonder why the hell do you still play. It sounds like you hate this game, never have any fun, and don't see yourself having any in the future.. I know if I shared your sentiments, I would have quit already. If there isn't a game I can jump into, I would play a single player game. But why play a game you hate so much?
Perhaps because she doesn't hate the game but wants it to change for the better? Staying here and voicing her concerns can make that happen. Going away won't.
Well, then dont compare it against the obsolete outdated reference, and compare against the other way to get gear, which is instancing. B0oth have mechanics that force-slow your progression.
New? Ever seen Lothlorien and Mirkwood recipes?
The gating via reputation is an effective method to prevent people with lowbie crafting alts to be up there with level cap crafters. This is 100% ok in my view (despite having an army of lowbie crafters). I expect though that the reputation requirements for the recipes will be lowered with or at some point after RoR release.
Well, given that this thread concerns grind, saying to forget crafting for grinding instances is really not an improvement. I already have issue with skraid/instance loot as it is.
But I'm not suggesting crafting should be quick either. Only that it shouldn't be gated by pve landscape content. It disparages the f2p players who have not purchased the content yet but still wish to up their crafting and provide goods to a kinship/friends/etc.
Perhaps because she doesn't hate the game but wants it to change for the better? Staying here and voicing her concerns can make that happen. Going away won't.
Exactly this. Voicing concerns often results in positive change for the future.
It used to be, after six successful instance runs, everyone in the group had the armor. If you had a good raid group, then after 12 Rift runs, everyone had the armor. I defy you to run Draigoth or any other current end-game instance 6 or 12 times and have a full set of armor. It's more like 10 to 20 or more now.
If you ran Draigoch 12 times, everyone in the group would have helm, shoulders, 800 Seals and 3,000 Medallions (more than enough to buy the entire set), more cloaks than the group could use, and a full complement of 2nd Age LIs. In one-fifth the amount of time weekly that it took to run an entire Rift run.
With Orthanc, true, it would take more runs if you only did T1. But T1 is world easier than the Rift ever was. ...
This is a very good example of the difference between the perceived and the real effort to get things done.
I have no doubts that most of the people complaining about the increased effort necessary to achieve this and that are sincere in their motives and dont arbitrarily make things up; I think the first poster actually believes it can take up to 20 runs etc. Nevertheless, factually a majority of the effort has been eased up directly or practically through second hand changes. Sorry people, but its in the numbers.
And by the way, even when exclusively running the Raid on Tier1 everyone can have one complete Orthanc armor set after an absolute maximum of 11 completions, irrespective of the character the runs are made on, not to forget. This number does not take into account seals from first deed completion. It follows that T2 will be significantly faster than Rift.
...
None of the facts I've posted (with the exception of the LI Point totals) are refuted, they are simply countered with 'I don't think that's true' or 'that's not a grind'.
Your incomplete or false statements towards:
- cost of empowerment scrolls
- virtue and crafting changes
- changes in reputation factions
- reputation enhancers
... have been corrected, but you pretend it did not happen.
I could say Great River (a free update) has more Slayer deeds than the entire paid Expansion of Mirkwood (a true statement) and that is clearly an increase in grind since F2P and someone would say...'No it isn't'. Really an exercise in futility to debate viewpoints like that...
Great River has exactly one more slayer deed. Do you really want to base an opinion around that? Yes, indeed an exercise in futility to debate in this fashion.
Last edited by Vandervahn; Aug 10 2012 at 01:34 PM.
Your incomplete or false statements towards:
- cost of empowerment scrolls
- virtue and crafting changes
- changes in reputation factions
- reputation enhancers
... have been corrected, but you simply pretended it did not happen.
Corrected?
Here's how you and others made the 'corrections'.
Great River has exactly one more slayer deed. Do you really want to base an opinion around that?
One more is one more., it's still MORE yet you want to dismiss it as 'corrected'?.
20 silver tokens and 10 gold tokens (Great River) is more than 10 gold tokens (Mirkwood).
Raising Virtues 4 levels since F2P is 4 more levels than it was ever raised before F2P (want to bet we get yet 2 more level increase with Rohan?).
Changing the value of Virtues NEVER occurred before F2P but virtues have been changed since F2P (Zeal anyone?)
Never before F2P has any Reputation faction only provided 9 quests and 3 daily quests as a means to reach Kindred.
I noticed you conveniently didn't bother mentioning Starlit Crystals or Stat Tomes, guess they didn't need 'correction'?
Turbine won't have the Store reduce the grind in the game because they NEED the grind (All MMOs do). Whatever grind the Store removes Turbine has to put back, thus the grind has increased for those that don't use the Store.
The only thing we agree on is that this is an exercise in futility.
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Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
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