Reasons why hunter is broken and why not to play one.
I was originaly going to post this for Lendas on the RIP thread but feel all hunters could use take something away from this, its been a while since I posted here about hunters, because shortly after RoI I had quit for good, deleted all my toons with crafting maxed, two kinhouses, ect. and I never regreted it even till this day. What you have to realize is this is not a problem that will ever be fixed.
When RoI was released, I considred myself the best Hunter on the server, save a few one or two others who were equally spec. but based on preferance. I was a good little hunter, I had watched every development, and every pod cast that was ever released by the dev team and thier Public Relations guy.
After RoI was released I had figured all the algorithims and max dps and agro balance, and watched how they changed every class into new roles. It was shocking the amount of changes that had took place. All the promises that zombie had promised in his interview with Doc Holiday were saddly broken, and the only comment that held true was the one he made about how the champions dev went overboard. (when really it was he who went underboard)
our dev even said that endurance stance in ROI would be broken and he did not know what to do with it. which is pretty unproffessional to say the least, since it leaves a class unfinished.
I seen how the Public relations guy stood up for our dev like negative hunter feedback was a personal attack instead of advice that needed to be acted on when people critisized him on changes. The fact of the matter is, they strayed from original primary roles of classes. They did not implement a plan that would ensure equal development of the game as new primary roles changed for few classes. It was done very very sloppy and with no reguard for new development to classes that were top of thier tiers in the first place with exception to the mini.
The fact of the matter was, they were not even aware of the imbalances left behind from beta and afterwards, took everything personal and just flat out ignored the community by not being able to sort out elite hunters feedback. I knew that this was not a game problem, it was a dev staff problem that reached high up to the top even with the public relations staff. It reminds me of the FFXIV team that tried to say that the game was next generation and everyone just hated the thing, but in thier case the CEO of square realized the feedback and immediatly started to listen to the players and charged a team with implementation of player feedback when pre release sales took a dive downward. In lotro's case, there was no ceo that knew something was not right, because it had been only one class that truley was broken by thier new system. Both hunter dev and the public relations guy for lotro were as arogant as the ffxiv dev team was, and had convinced the top managment that nothing was wrong and it was just the players and not the class.
Sure they had pretty convincing evidence but they were lacking the knowledge of top PVE hunters on the subject and only needed to sort through the massive mixed posts they were recieving. They had also had goals to path the hunters out of certain playstyles which was a disaster in the end, and till this day I dont think they even understand why.
This was the basis of my decision to just delete every toon and quit, it was a hard choice but I had enough posts and pod casts of broken promises (one stood out was when ZC promised that if tanks had trouble with agro they would increase the agro for tanks and that they expected us to stack agi as high as possible, which I took as if we jack our agi to max ZC and the team would ensure that we would not suffer agro for godley unique dps) which showed proof of mismanagment of the class. In the end, the talking broke down and ZC no longer wished to sort through the mix of what he was hearing and had no plans to add new developments to a class (create a secondary role equal to champs very effective tanking ability + top tier dps or rk's effective healing + top tier dps which was added in the ROI expansion).
When you have become an elite hunter in this game, theres really only one option in this game, sadly that is quit or reroll a champ or rk, so I stand with you bud and hope you dont let this game tear you down, just find a new game instead and you'll be happy and you wont regret it. I dint, and every year I still check back here like now, and know it was a great choice I made (not a single feedback since ROI has been implemented), instead of being unhappy and begging wortheless devs and fight public relation pitbulls for upgrades all these these years.
After all, a game should be fun and make you happy, and when your maxed gear and traited it should feel so, and if it doesnt, then its no longer fun or a game, its work.
I wouldn't say hunters are quite as broken as you make them out to be, but I do agree that our class could use a good deal of love right now. We can still dish out top dps in most situations, but with several other classes with much greater secondary utility on our heels in terms of dps that just isn't enough these days! I've got my fingers crossed that Rohan gives us something decent (perhaps a good set bonus?), but after looking at the new skills we're getting I'm not getting my hopes up, they look pretty redundant and uninteresting.
I had this huge post to defend the Hunter typed and then I deleted it. Oh well.
All in all. Rough small version.
The hunter is not as broken as people try to make it seem. Most of the time when I hear players gripe about the Hunter it is simply because it doesn't deal all the DPS a RK or Champ does.
Whatever. Of all my classes of characters I play or have played my Hunter still nails out the most DPS. To be fair I have played him longer and I know my skill rotations and skill que to maximize my DPS. Other Classes not so but in no means that doesn't mean I can't play them in any game scenario including raids.
Each class is more than just DPS or JUST Tanking or JUST Healing. Yes a Hunter is ranged DPS. Yes he deals it. He might not have the DPS he had back when Moria came out and every single player on a server rolled a Hunter because it was the top tier DPS killing machine. This in no way means he can't still dish out DPS or survive in the game.
My favorite part is about the Hunter Moria Release roll out. Everyone was soooooooooooooooooooo happy to have a Hunter and everyone played one simply because it made the Watcher fight turn into a 10 Hunter 2 Minstrel fight where he died in 20 minutes or less since we could draw more aggro than anything as well as dish out 15k+ HS every 5 minutes. ( Personnal highest was 17k myself but thats aside the point )
Why is this my favorite? Because Turbine altered the DPS to be less godly (it was damn godly and we all knew a change was going to hit ) and all those Hunter lovers became Hunter haters simply because the game wasn't EZMode anymore.
I'll still take my Hunter over any of my other classes to play simply because it is fun to play. To me it will always have room to be changed in all kinds of ways BUT even if Turbine doesn't listen. I won't hate the class until the Ports Cost 100 rations a port and all my skills cost 500 power for 1 skill shot of any kind.
Yeah seriously hunters need a fix in raids, pvmp, and general survivibility and role.
When burglars hit trouble they simply--
Bibbity Bobbity Boo HIPS!
For the hunter its more like--
Bibbity Bobbity Boo RUN LIKE HELL!!
Not effective.
I've always been taught that good customer service is the most important part of a business. Ignoring customers whether they are right or wrong is honestly the worst thing to do. It shows that you dont care. Even saying "no" is better than saying nothing for goodness sake! But why is it ok for us hunters to be ignored? Are we not considered customers? Do we not play this game just like every other class?
I think threads with such negative, hopeless titles assures that they will ignored. Whinging threads don't help, constructive feedback at least has a chance to engage discussion and prompt dev responses.
I think threads with such negative, hopeless titles assures that they will ignored. Whinging threads don't help, constructive feedback at least has a chance to engage discussion and prompt dev responses.
Are you new around here or something? We haven't seen a dev for over a year despite thousands of constructive suggestions. The guy flounced out in a huff long ago.
I wouldn't say hunters are quite as broken as you make them out to be, but I do agree that our class could use a good deal of love right now.
Agreed. And don't see a whole lot here that is any different than the other thirty-five "hunters R broken!!!!!" threads this year.
The player is more important than the class. And always has been. Raid groups I run with will take a skilled hunter over a lesser skilled Champ any day of the week.
There are other classes to play in the game if hunter no longer suits a person. And other games to play. And as "broken" as the hunter is supposedly, there still seems to be a ton that enjoy playing them. I've taken to doing an informal census on my server. Of the 75s on that aren't anonymous, there are always 2.5- 4.5 X as many hunters as Burgs. And usually just a hair more Lore Masters than Burgs. So....can't be that bad. And if it is? Try a different class?
Last edited by Irenmund; Aug 05 2012 at 06:55 PM.
Tommac-Mini, Shurmann-Cap, Theodolan-Guard, Thromdir-Hnt - Dancing in the Dark
I'm leveling up a Warden right now, and I have got to say that well over 50% of the people I encounter on my server in the mid-30's are playing Hunters. Hell, even on my level 75 hunter most groups that will take a hunter have two of them and 4 more trying to get an invite. Hunters are all over the place. Find and healer or a tank to jump in and fill a spot for that Link Dead mini or guard that left you in the middle of an instance... that's a challenge. Finding a Hunter... 2 maybe 3 minutes in prime time.
Hunters are broken? Define broken... because (my perception of) player numbers are not reflecting that at all.
The Hunter class my not be what you (we, 'cause I'm not happy with the class either), want right now, but what should the dev team do? Respond to the top 3 hunters on each server or the bottom 90%... who, to be frank, love the class with its easy travel, tracking, and range. I mean, I love to solo with my Hunter... it's only when I'm spamming /lff or watching the champ / RK out DPS me that I fill a little let down.
I have got to admit, I think one of the major issues with the class is that it's so popular with the casual (me) player base and I don't see how making things better will fix that.
When you have become an elite hunter in this game, theres really only one option in this game, sadly that is quit or reroll a champ or rk, so I stand with you bud and hope you dont let this game tear you down, just find a new game instead and you'll be happy and you wont regret it. I dint, and every year I still check back here like now, and know it was a great choice I made (not a single feedback since ROI has been implemented), instead of being unhappy and begging wortheless devs and fight public relation pitbulls for upgrades all these these years.
As far as I know, Rk DPS is broken. Really broken. They parse at most 1800-1900 on a dummy and raiding Rks never posted something very impressive, where we can easely do 500 more DPS. Of course, champs are at a very good spot right know.
I've red your post twice and the only precise grief I've found was endurance stance, which is, indeed, still broken. The rest was about desvs attitude, which, tbh, I dont care much.
What hunters need:
1) fixed interrupt.
2) better threat mangement skill
3) survival skills / minimal heal
4) Useful trapper line.
5) Fixed stances. Who runs withtout precision right now?
And yet, I would't say hunters are totally broken. People ask me to DPS, I'm pretty good at it. In fact when I compare my DPS in raids, only champs are a real competition.
--
Concerning the forums: I agree, there is some constructive posts but they are flooded within 666 «hunters r broken!!!111» with meme photos, agressive talking and name calling. Do you really think you well get something with that? Stay calm and if the Hunters dev diary doesnt please you, by all means, have fun with GW2 or whatever.
As an "Elite" Hunter responding to this post I have to say your wrong. Yes you are right about some aspects of the class, about what the devs have done and where error has occurred. However the class is anything but broken. I agree in terms of stances there is only one useful one, this is stupid. Obviously there are issues regarding stances, survivability and such. Read about them in the upcoming dev diary this week it will make you feel better I'm sure.
PvE
There is not a class in the game that can out DPS a hunter who knows what hes doing and has the best gear. Feel free to link any parse from any player anywhere in the game in any fight and I will beat it with a FRAPS video. Even aoe pulls over champs with RoA traits in many circumstances with proper maxed out melee LI with low cut bleeds. If you are pulling agro your guardian sucks. I've done over 4-5k DPS in acid and not pulled agro.
Moors
There is not one Reaver, WL, Warg, or Spider I cannot beat in a 1v1 on my server, Ba's of course with evade the best ones I can't do if they pop evade uruk and vt. I've even been able to kill 2 ranked creeps in 2v1 sometimes with man-heal. I'm sick and tired of these posts about how bad the hunter is. My ego has never been higher and I am very happy with where I am right now except for moors survivability. But even then I manage, I solo a ton but still have a 40 kd ratio at r14 and at the moment im sitting at 2k rating playing aggressive, Brandywine is a very active server with a boatload of wargs.
From reading your post all I read is you "thought" you were an elite hunter. If you can talk like an &&& like me and actually pull it off then youll be in the place where you never quite the game. Cheers.
Last edited by YesMaam; Aug 08 2012 at 12:59 AM.
Yelk ~ DieHard ~ The Warlord - Shock and Awe. You will fear me.
So, let me get this straight, you have left Lotro, deleted your hunter and other toons, and yet you are still visiting the forums to moan?
Well Sparky I know hating on hunters (by hunters) is all the rage but:
If you don't want to play Lotro that's cool, and your choice. Others do. Our choice. Please respect ours, we didn't argue with yours.
If you feel aggrieved by events during the life of your toon that's sad, but as you don't play anymore kinda irrelevant now.
If you expected the game to curl up and die due to the loss of the your uber-hunter toon, it didn't.
If you expect all the other hunters to quit in support to make the game die, they won't, and in any case it wouldn't.
If you expect the title and content of your post to put people off rolling hunters, judging by numbers online it won't.
Perhaps you could make your impassioned, bitter, emotive posts on the forums of whatever game it is that you practice your 1337 skillz on now. In fact if you drop me a link to the forums I'll pop over and explain how bad a game it is, and how bad the toons are. Not that I actually play.
I'll carry on playing my hunter here at Lotro thanks, I'll carry on reading the forums. I'll read complaints and positives alike from hunters across all the servers here, some I'll agree with, some maybe not. But the last person I'll be taking advice from is some dramatist whose door-slamming hissy-fit exit from the game was clearly such a non-event that they have to come back to try and make more waves.
So, let me get this straight, you have left Lotro, deleted your hunter and other toons, and yet you are still visiting the forums to moan?
Well Sparky I know hating on hunters (by hunters) is all the rage but:
If you don't want to play Lotro that's cool, and your choice. Others do. Our choice. Please respect ours, we didn't argue with yours.
If you feel aggrieved by events during the life of your toon that's sad, but as you don't play anymore kinda irrelevant now.
If you expected the game to curl up and die due to the loss of the your uber-hunter toon, it didn't.
If you expect all the other hunters to quit in support to make the game die, they won't, and in any case it wouldn't.
If you expect the title and content of your post to put people off rolling hunters, judging by numbers online it won't.
Perhaps you could make your impassioned, bitter, emotive posts on the forums of whatever game it is that you practice your 1337 skillz on now. In fact if you drop me a link to the forums I'll pop over and explain how bad a game it is, and how bad the toons are. Not that I actually play.
I'll carry on playing my hunter here at Lotro thanks, I'll carry on reading the forums. I'll read complaints and positives alike from hunters across all the servers here, some I'll agree with, some maybe not. But the last person I'll be taking advice from is some dramatist whose door-slamming hissy-fit exit from the game was clearly such a non-event that they have to come back to try and make more waves.
I read the forums too much because I'm so sick of people saying the same incorret stuff over and over as if they think it's new or true. Its my own fault, others that don't read it alot have every right to make these same inaccurate assumptions and repeat them. I just wish they could be filtered some how.
Originally Posted by Kannos1600
Each class is more than just DPS or JUST Tanking or JUST Healing.
Really? Lets look at Lightning Boss T2C fight. Something very commonly run and lets see what the other classes are doing in there.
Mini - Buffing and Healing
LM - Debuffing, healing power and morale, providing Stun Immunity and DPS'ing
Captain - Healing, buffing, dpsing
Guardian - Tanking OR dps'ing (two tanks for trash, using the one tank strat)
Champion - DPS'ing & tanking (aggroing light balls)
Burglar - DPS'ing, buffing and debuffing
Warden - Tanking or dps'ing same as Guard
RK - Healing or DPS'ing Hunter - DPS ONLY!!!!!!
How many other fights are like this? There's been so many, the turtle, durchest, the LT of DG, the fire boss in Orthanc Forges, the lightning boss in SG, Draigoch, Dragnakh and on and on it goes. If there is no CC, other than DPS what the hunter do? So yes, each class is more than just dps or tanking or healing EXCEPT US!
Yes a Hunter is ranged DPS. Yes he deals it. He might not have the DPS he had back when Moria came out and every single player on a server rolled a Hunter because it was the top tier DPS killing machine.
Why is Moria always brought up whenever someone says hunters need to be fixed? Over the 5 year history of the game, that period was like not even 6 months, I don' t think. Most players that play now, weren't playing then. Minstrels, champs and RK's are every bit as powerful now as the hunter was then. Why does the hyperbole always flow from Book 6?
Turbine uses this excuse too. "Oh those hunters, they just want to be like they were in book 6".
As an "Elite" Hunter responding to this post I have to say your wrong. Yes you are right about some aspects of the class, about what the devs have done and where error has occurred. However the class is anything but broken. I agree in terms of stances there is only one useful one, this is stupid. Obviously there are issues regarding stances, survivability and such. Read about them in the upcoming dev diary this week it will make you feel better I'm sure.
PvE
There is not a class in the game that can out DPS a hunter who knows what hes doing and has the best gear. Feel free to link any parse from any player anywhere in the game in any fight and I will beat it with a FRAPS video. Even aoe pulls over champs with RoA traits in many circumstances with proper maxed out melee LI with low cut bleeds. If you are pulling agro your guardian sucks. I've done over 4-5k DPS in acid and not pulled agro.
Moors
There is not one Reaver, WL, Warg, or Spider I cannot beat in a 1v1 on my server, Ba's of course with evade the best ones I can't do if they pop evade uruk and vt. I've even been able to kill 2 ranked creeps in 2v1 sometimes with man-heal. I'm sick and tired of these posts about how bad the hunter is. My ego has never been higher and I am very happy with where I am right now except for moors survivability. But even then I manage, I solo a ton but still have a 40 kd ratio at r14 and at the moment im sitting at 2k rating playing aggressive, Brandywine is a very active server with a boatload of wargs.
From reading your post all I read is you "thought" you were an elite hunter. If you can talk like an &&& like me and actually pull it off then youll be in the place where you never quite the game. Cheers.
L33T hunter. Did you know, back in the day, the term "hunter turret" was an insult? This was the term the hunters used to describe the hunter that just spun around in a circle spamming 1, 2, 3. Ezmode. Unimaginative.
Now, due to the broken nature of this class, the "hunter turrets" like you are celebrated. Yelk, you're a good leader, for that I will give you credit. But as a hunter? You're below average. As a mouse turner, you're above average. Try and learn the difference before you post this stuff again.
Colorspecs put it very well. Utility is the name of the game in pve and pvmp...
I would love for hunter to be given a unique ranged tanking line for yellow and have a really unique playsyle as a ranged off tank.
It would also help in the moors since currently we are warg food since we can't survive or do dps while getting hit
If we had that ranged tanking utility with some moves on the move with a penalty to damage, with bonuses to threat, we could be useful as an off tank and a dps class (eyes champs, guards) but our difference will be that we will rely on kites and a mixture of on the move ranged skills and higher threat and damage grossing induction skills.
This will help in the moors and in the raids.
With the release notes for hunter out... It seems there is no one at turbine who is really listening or doing anything about hunters. They threw us a few crumbling bones and they sadly are met with some overjoyed hunters who are happy with anything.... Thinking that cry of hunters will solve all their problems... And then post release they meet the ugly truth like I have for 5 years .
Hunter seemingly is always going farther down....
MoM...... We got epic uber dps.... Didn't matter that our survival sucked.... We asked for a trade of dps for survival.... We got a big fat nerf stick and nothing in return.
RoI.... We got epic uber dps..... Didn't matter that our survival sucked..... We got it ripped from us when audacity got introduced in the moors and we still have about as much survival as MoM while everyone else has RoI levels.
RoR predicted outcome?
We get nothing. We lose. We get a half baked thrown together in 5 min joke of a survival skill that looks like a stained glass window. Projected lower dps.... Projected lower survival....
Nothing
Zip
Surival will still suck. Half baked skill will be worthless pvp and raid wise... If they had just given us 0 induction press onward...
Oh c'mon Lendas, you can't say those words without a pic or gif to go with it! Here, let me assist you, because we all know Hunters have the u83r l337 utility...
There we go.
My other Warhorse is a Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit, Defiant-Class, U.S.S. Say My Name, NCC-93144
Not much at all wrong with my hunter, hasn't been for a long time, minor tweaking could do wonders.
I'd also hope turbine don't put much stock in the opinions of people who go around claiming they are the best at anything because they have good gear etc without even knowing eveyone else out there. Quite obviously these people already believe that they're way is the only way and want things changed to fit exactly that.
For all you know there are predominately solo players who play the class far better than you ever will, maybe they like things the way they are or want something different changed.
Why is Moria always brought up whenever someone says hunters need to be fixed? Over the 5 year history of the game, that period was like not even 6 months, I don' t think.
Moria launched in November '08, I quit in January '09, and the Book 7 nerf warheads fell in early February '09. So around 3 months. I remember, 'cause I was damn glad I quit before the nerfs were announced. Would have looked bad if I'd quit afterwards.
LOL Ty Eoburn.... The quality of my posts has Dropped because I'm posting while traveling... Once I'm back I'll be giving my full fledged posts with gifs and all.
LOL Ty Eoburn.... The quality of my posts has Dropped because I'm posting while traveling... Once I'm back I'll be giving my full fledged posts with gifs and all.
My other Warhorse is a Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit, Defiant-Class, U.S.S. Say My Name, NCC-93144
I had this huge post to defend the Hunter typed and then I deleted it. Oh well.
All in all. Rough small version.
The hunter is not as broken as people try to make it seem. Most of the time when I hear players gripe about the Hunter it is simply because it doesn't deal all the DPS a RK or Champ does.
Whatever. Of all my classes of characters I play or have played my Hunter still nails out the most DPS. To be fair I have played him longer and I know my skill rotations and skill que to maximize my DPS. Other Classes not so but in no means that doesn't mean I can't play them in any game scenario including raids.
Each class is more than just DPS or JUST Tanking or JUST Healing. Yes a Hunter is ranged DPS. Yes he deals it. He might not have the DPS he had back when Moria came out and every single player on a server rolled a Hunter because it was the top tier DPS killing machine. This in no way means he can't still dish out DPS or survive in the game.
My favorite part is about the Hunter Moria Release roll out. Everyone was soooooooooooooooooooo happy to have a Hunter and everyone played one simply because it made the Watcher fight turn into a 10 Hunter 2 Minstrel fight where he died in 20 minutes or less since we could draw more aggro than anything as well as dish out 15k+ HS every 5 minutes. ( Personnal highest was 17k myself but thats aside the point )
Why is this my favorite? Because Turbine altered the DPS to be less godly (it was damn godly and we all knew a change was going to hit ) and all those Hunter lovers became Hunter haters simply because the game wasn't EZMode anymore.
I'll still take my Hunter over any of my other classes to play simply because it is fun to play. To me it will always have room to be changed in all kinds of ways BUT even if Turbine doesn't listen. I won't hate the class until the Ports Cost 100 rations a port and all my skills cost 500 power for 1 skill shot of any kind.
Anyone can roll a huter and do dps. The ezmode of this class is its draw to the masses. The problems we see are when we want to elevate the hunter to another level. Played to the edge a hunter has so many inconsitancies to their skills and LIs that it really hampers someone who wants to be that end game player. Every class has a few head scratchers but the hunter is LOADED with them. The devs lost the way with hunters in Moria. It bacame give them bigger booms... then oopppss too many limit them.. and they added useless skills and had no clear thought on where to take the class. Give a paper armor dps machine some kick &&& AOE... we do you know it when traited... sounds great until 8 of your new friends rush to your house for dinner.... where is the logic in this? If you do this you need to give the hunter the skills to acutally survive the damage from the AOE mobs. Nope throw it out there and see if it works... nope didn't work .. fix it? Nah, let it go and another useless trait enters the hunter books cough.. split shot.. again great more pips... hey where did these guys come from? Why am I dead I just got full focus.... hmmmmm...
This is what drives hunters nuts. Skills given without thought or consideration. Devs toss this out and have no clue how a hunter works, dpses or survives.
Tydalmir
Vyxe said, "Cheer up it could be worse out here tonight." So we all cheered up, and wouldn't you know it.... things got worse!
Give a paper armor dps machine some kick &&& AOE... we do you know it when traited... sounds great until 8 of your new friends rush to your house for dinner.... where is the logic in this? If you do this you need to give the hunter the skills to acutally survive the damage from the AOE mobs. Nope throw it out there and see if it works... nope didn't work ..
A class with AOE skills needs to be careful how and when they use them. A hunter who pulls a bunch of things onto themselves is playing poorly in most cases....Or the tank is. Don't lob AOE skills into a pile of things until the tank has had a chance to get a grip on them? A small percentage of hunters (quite often those that play tanking classes) can also recognize which skills the tank is landing (Guardian in this example). See the Guard hit Litany and Shield Taunt and they landed? Yeah...now it would be a good time to AOE. 2 seconds after the fight starts? Not smart... No surprise to me that Turbine isn't going to make it easy for a DPS class to put out a pile of damage without aggro consequences.
Tommac-Mini, Shurmann-Cap, Theodolan-Guard, Thromdir-Hnt - Dancing in the Dark
A class with AOE skills needs to be careful how and when they use them. A hunter who pulls a bunch of things onto themselves is playing poorly in most cases....Or the tank is. Don't lob AOE skills into a pile of things until the tank has had a chance to get a grip on them? A small percentage of hunters (quite often those that play tanking classes) can also recognize which skills the tank is landing (Guardian in this example). See the Guard hit Litany and Shield Taunt and they landed? Yeah...now it would be a good time to AOE. 2 seconds after the fight starts? Not smart... No surprise to me that Turbine isn't going to make it easy for a DPS class to put out a pile of damage without aggro consequences.
So champs get #1 aoe and single target dps, your point is? Would be bad for a guard to try and hold that. Works better with 2 champs and 2 AOE hunters. Things die fast and champs can mostly hold aggro better than any guard through dps only.
This is exactly what I mean.. devs ho boy champs are now equal to hunters in single target dps... what do we do? I know give hunters some AOE that levels the playing field. That is the thought process and you see the results. I could go on and on but I did that in a post already trust me there are TONS of these gems hidden inside the crunchy outer shell of hunter skill problems.
Tydalmir
Last edited by Tinluen; Aug 11 2012 at 05:21 PM.
Vyxe said, "Cheer up it could be worse out here tonight." So we all cheered up, and wouldn't you know it.... things got worse!
I read the forums too much because I'm so sick of people saying the same incorret stuff over and over as if they think it's new or true. Its my own fault, others that don't read it alot have every right to make these same inaccurate assumptions and repeat them. I just wish they could be filtered some how.
Really? Lets look at Lightning Boss T2C fight. Something very commonly run and lets see what the other classes are doing in there.
Mini - Buffing and Healing
LM - Debuffing, healing power and morale, providing Stun Immunity and DPS'ing
Captain - Healing, buffing, dpsing
Guardian - Tanking OR dps'ing (two tanks for trash, using the one tank strat)
Champion - DPS'ing & tanking (aggroing light balls)
Burglar - DPS'ing, buffing and debuffing
Warden - Tanking or dps'ing same as Guard
RK - Healing or DPS'ing Hunter - DPS ONLY!!!!!!
How many other fights are like this? There's been so many, the turtle, durchest, the LT of DG, the fire boss in Orthanc Forges, the lightning boss in SG, Draigoch, Dragnakh and on and on it goes. If there is no CC, other than DPS what the hunter do? So yes, each class is more than just dps or tanking or healing EXCEPT US!
Why is Moria always brought up whenever someone says hunters need to be fixed? Over the 5 year history of the game, that period was like not even 6 months, I don' t think. Most players that play now, weren't playing then. Minstrels, champs and RK's are every bit as powerful now as the hunter was then. Why does the hyperbole always flow from Book 6?
Turbine uses this excuse too. "Oh those hunters, they just want to be like they were in book 6".
Reading your post can be set to a point out to your point. Few things here.
1. You dont like it when people point to the Moria release date? Why not? Our DPS was ungodly high compared to any class at the time and they cut us back after about 2 months or so. In that time frame every mother under the son (including everyone in my Kinship minus 1 or 2) rolled a Hunter simply because the DPS really was that high. They wanted the ez ticket. Once Turbine changed that the only thing most of them went back to a hunter for was either to PvMP or to craft and port people around in the kin but all else was ignored.
2. Utility. The Hunter has been about Utility since it came out but it is also mentioned as Ranged DPS. For all intents and purposes before the RK was introduced we were the "Glass Cannon" of LOTRO. Now that title goes to the RK. Regardless though the Hunter is still DPS. With current settup you can trait all classes for a DPS format. Course under typical conditions the 3 primary DPS classes will usually out the others but this isn't always entirely true.
3. You now bring into the Raid aspect of things. Thats fine. Raids are a class use specific in alot of groups. Many times more than not in a raid a class is requested for a singular roll vs multiple so yes in the Lightning fight here you would want the Hunter for DPS but we have plenty of other raids where you can have a Hunter be CC vs DPS if your raid leader opted for it.
All in all my information is still correct in its point out. Hunters are still DPS. They are also Utility as it has been since the day it was conceived of a class but some never really noticed it till end lvl play.
Reading your post can be set to a point out to your point. Few things here.
1. You dont like it when people point to the Moria release date? Why not? Our DPS was ungodly high compared to any class at the time and they cut us back after about 2 months or so. In that time frame every mother under the son (including everyone in my Kinship minus 1 or 2) rolled a Hunter simply because the DPS really was that high. They wanted the ez ticket. Once Turbine changed that the only thing most of them went back to a hunter for was either to PvMP or to craft and port people around in the kin but all else was ignored.
2. Utility. The Hunter has been about Utility since it came out but it is also mentioned as Ranged DPS. For all intents and purposes before the RK was introduced we were the "Glass Cannon" of LOTRO. Now that title goes to the RK. Regardless though the Hunter is still DPS. With current settup you can trait all classes for a DPS format. Course under typical conditions the 3 primary DPS classes will usually out the others but this isn't always entirely true.
3. You now bring into the Raid aspect of things. Thats fine. Raids are a class use specific in alot of groups. Many times more than not in a raid a class is requested for a singular roll vs multiple so yes in the Lightning fight here you would want the Hunter for DPS but we have plenty of other raids where you can have a Hunter be CC vs DPS if your raid leader opted for it.
All in all my information is still correct in its point out. Hunters are still DPS. They are also Utility as it has been since the day it was conceived of a class but some never really noticed it till end lvl play.
K, list out all of the boss fights that hunter CC as a main function is a requirement. You can go all the way back to great barrows if you want to.
My point about Moria is as I explained it. Its used as a crutch. "Omg you just want to be a book 6 hunter!!!". How many people still playing even remember it? Its become almost mythical. But while we definately were overpowered, we weren't game breaking. In Book 7 RK's hit every bit as high as Book 6 hunters did! But no one ever says "Omg you just want to be a book 7 RK!!!".
As an "Elite" Hunter responding to this post I have to say your wrong. Yes you are right about some aspects of the class, about what the devs have done and where error has occurred. However the class is anything but broken. I agree in terms of stances there is only one useful one, this is stupid. Obviously there are issues regarding stances, survivability and such. Read about them in the upcoming dev diary this week it will make you feel better I'm sure.
PvE
There is not a class in the game that can out DPS a hunter who knows what hes doing and has the best gear. Feel free to link any parse from any player anywhere in the game in any fight and I will beat it with a FRAPS video. Even aoe pulls over champs with RoA traits in many circumstances with proper maxed out melee LI with low cut bleeds. If you are pulling agro your guardian sucks. I've done over 4-5k DPS in acid and not pulled agro.
Moors
There is not one Reaver, WL, Warg, or Spider I cannot beat in a 1v1 on my server, Ba's of course with evade the best ones I can't do if they pop evade uruk and vt. I've even been able to kill 2 ranked creeps in 2v1 sometimes with man-heal. I'm sick and tired of these posts about how bad the hunter is. My ego has never been higher and I am very happy with where I am right now except for moors survivability. But even then I manage, I solo a ton but still have a 40 kd ratio at r14 and at the moment im sitting at 2k rating playing aggressive, Brandywine is a very active server with a boatload of wargs.
From reading your post all I read is you "thought" you were an elite hunter. If you can talk like an &&& like me and actually pull it off then youll be in the place where you never quite the game. Cheers.
Ok, so since we are all being uber 1337 huntards here I figure I would go ahead and say some stuff.
First off, Yelk, you are a very good all around hunter from what I saw in my time on BW. Im glad that you are enjoying having top tier gear and being able to wreck face with it. However, may I ask how much of your rank 14 you have gotten from "soloing a ton"? I hardly ever saw you solo in my few months over there, might not reflect on your overall playstyle but you have a reputation as a raid leader, so I assume you mostly raid, which honestly is pretty ezmode almost to a farming point on BW with so many ppl zerging and trading kills, rezzing, and trading more kills.
Second, while I did encounter a couple good 1v1 creeps on BW, most of them just used store items to cover their lack of skill. You being able to wreck anything 1v1 with a first age and the best gear evah is meh to me. I play with 3 audacity including base and I dont have a 1st age, nor do I even have gear that is all that good compared to ppl on BW where there are tons of raids who beat t2 ToO consistently. I can also take almost anything in a 1v1 if I actually want to. I say this because I have lost interest in the grind and faceroll of this game, and half the time I simply am not paying attention when Im fighting creeps.
But thats not completely the issue this thread is raising, it says that hunters are broken and why not to play one. Honestly I have never really understood the OP (I saw his original troll threads when he quit and he kept coming back for months to tell everyone to do the same), but if a person wants to play a bow wielding class in this game, they are going to play the hunter, no matter how broken they are.
However, I would like to submit the idea that hunters are, in fact, NOT broken. They would only be broken if the people who designed the class did not intend to make them this way, not just because they arent the way YOU want them. Hunters in this game are working exactly as their game creators intended them to be, otherwise they would fix them.
K, list out all of the boss fights that hunter CC as a main function is a requirement. You can go all the way back to great barrows if you want to.
My point about Moria is as I explained it. Its used as a crutch. "Omg you just want to be a book 6 hunter!!!". How many people still playing even remember it? Its become almost mythical. But while we definately were overpowered, we weren't game breaking. In Book 7 RK's hit every bit as high as Book 6 hunters did! But no one ever says "Omg you just want to be a book 7 RK!!!".
RK dps to Hnt dps still upsets me to. They are the little brother to the DPS classes and yet oust the other two.
For me the ZOMG ITS DPS day of Moria is still strong in my play history as with others who have been around that long regardless of the years that have passed. As I agree in turn that we weren't game breaking with the DPS but as you very well know that when your the biggest nail you get hammered down first and thats what the case was with Hunter vs other classes. The others complained we were OP and thus Turbine slammed the DPS Hammer onto our nail head.
Boss fights alone in a raid are usually straight forward. It's getting to the bosses that can alter the class role ina raid. Plenty of times I have done BG or DN and was set for CC vs DPS trait lines. I myself usually detested this as I hated the cut on DPS in the ToF line (always had and thankfully its gone) but did it anyway and it showed different play styles. So I will agree with you that the actual Bosses in a raid the Hunter is for the most part DPS set but a raid alone isn't set by just the boss fights. It's built from the mobs as well.
The Rift was a big one. Knowledge is power in any raid. Course what im going on has nothing to do with Classes and roles but when Rift first came out and you had the Task Masters + Trolls and healers you had to know how to handle the specific enemies to continue into the raid and if you didn't you probably spent a good 30 minutes battling a simple mob. Ahh paving the road to success in raids
Outside of Raid Bosses the same rule would apply. I have done say SG set in CC mode back before I knew the place better and did that vs DPS until we would get to a boss and retrait. Costly but got the job done. Same with raids.
Last edited by Kannos1600; Aug 20 2012 at 08:01 PM.
Ok, so since we are all being uber 1337 huntards here I figure I would go ahead and say some stuff.
First off, Yelk, you are a very good all around hunter from what I saw in my time on BW. Im glad that you are enjoying having top tier gear and being able to wreck face with it. However, may I ask how much of your rank 14 you have gotten from "soloing a ton"? I hardly ever saw you solo in my few months over there, might not reflect on your overall playstyle but you have a reputation as a raid leader, so I assume you mostly raid, which honestly is pretty ezmode almost to a farming point on BW with so many ppl zerging and trading kills, rezzing, and trading more kills.
Second, while I did encounter a couple good 1v1 creeps on BW, most of them just used store items to cover their lack of skill. You being able to wreck anything 1v1 with a first age and the best gear evah is meh to me. I play with 3 audacity including base and I dont have a 1st age, nor do I even have gear that is all that good compared to ppl on BW where there are tons of raids who beat t2 ToO consistently. I can also take almost anything in a 1v1 if I actually want to. I say this because I have lost interest in the grind and faceroll of this game, and half the time I simply am not paying attention when Im fighting creeps.
But thats not completely the issue this thread is raising, it says that hunters are broken and why not to play one. Honestly I have never really understood the OP (I saw his original troll threads when he quit and he kept coming back for months to tell everyone to do the same), but if a person wants to play a bow wielding class in this game, they are going to play the hunter, no matter how broken they are.
However, I would like to submit the idea that hunters are, in fact, NOT broken. They would only be broken if the people who designed the class did not intend to make them this way, not just because they arent the way YOU want them. Hunters in this game are working exactly as their game creators intended them to be, otherwise they would fix them.
I didn't even join a duo until R11. I have grouped and led often from then yes but I do solo. I also attend 1v1 circles. As for the caliber of creeps I've spared it's only the best. Wargs like Snoopey, Stylen, Reavers like Slyc, Beatle, Boostad Defilers like dephailer and kreeperofladygaga, really anybody you name it. Many creeps will name me a star hugging group/raider on brandy but they cannot deny my solo/1v1 activity. In all honesty I wouldn't care if I sucked on a hunter, IMO hunters shouldn't win 1v1s lol.
Last edited by YesMaam; Aug 20 2012 at 11:58 PM.
Yelk ~ DieHard ~ The Warlord - Shock and Awe. You will fear me.
RK dps to Hnt dps still upsets me to. They are the little brother to the DPS classes and yet oust the other two.
But you didn't answer the question: Why isn't it "You just want to be a book 7 RK?"
Boss fights alone in a raid are usually straight forward. It's getting to the bosses that can alter the class role ina raid.
I knew you were going to try that. Sorry no. I didn't say raid. I said instance. Remember the argument: "You just want to be book 6 hunters!" "No, I just want utility!"
Where's our utility in boss fights, 3 man, 6 man, 12 man. Lets go through the list again this time in the foundry's 3 bosses:
Champion - DPS or Tank
Guaridan - Tank or DPS
Warden - Tank or DPS
Minstrel - Heals or DPS
LM - DPS or Debuff
RK - Heals or DPS
Captain - Tank or Heals or DPS
Burglar - Debuff or DPS
Hunter - DPS or ?
There's no alternate roll for the hunter in any of those three boss fights. Or in the 3 mans either. Hell in Dragnakh if you bring a hunter to the final fight, you're two manning it! Scan the class list, is there another class in the Dragnakh fight that is completely useless?
What this means is, there's no flexibility. The hunter fills the dps roll. Period. They can't flex to heals obviously and they can't flex to Tank anymore. A good hunter could at least tank the Echoes of the Dead 3-mans. So, if you have that dps slot filled by another class that can match his dps or at least meet the threshold of "good enough" - which is all 8 of the other classes, the hunter must sit out to make room for that tank or healer.
Another way to put it, in any of the isengard 3 mans, you can run 2 of any of the above classes plus a third. Two wardens? One goes tank, another goes DPS. Two captains? One tanks, one heals (or DPS's). Two RK's? One heals one DPS's. Two hunters? That means no tank or no healer.
It'd be fine if the Hunter was still the king of single target DPS. If you absolutely want that one class that can dps better than any other, you can make the sacrifice of having to have a traditional group of tank/dps/healer. But that's not the case anymore is it? And we're not going to get that roll back because why? We can't become book 6 hunters!!
So our role is gone, nothing has replaced it. There's no alternative to it. Two hunters in a 3-man means no 3-man. So give us a goddamn secondary role!
Because, for a casual, and I mean casual player, a Hunter is an extremely easy, straight forward, and convenient class.
Hunters have constant +runspeed, good enough damage even if not built correctly, ports to nearly every corner of the entire game, and like every other class, can easily faceroll 98% of landscape, even without a hardcore or raid-level player behind them.
That is why a Hunter is the most popular class.
Take them into actual instances, raids, some skirms or the Moors, however...and all of the flaws of a Hunter start appearing like cracks on an old sidewalk.
My other Warhorse is a Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit, Defiant-Class, U.S.S. Say My Name, NCC-93144
But you didn't answer the question: Why isn't it "You just want to be a book 7 RK?"
I knew you were going to try that. Sorry no. I didn't say raid. I said instance. Remember the argument: "You just want to be book 6 hunters!" "No, I just want utility!"
Where's our utility in boss fights, 3 man, 6 man, 12 man. Lets go through the list again this time in the foundry's 3 bosses:
Champion - DPS or Tank
Guaridan - Tank or DPS
Warden - Tank or DPS
Minstrel - Heals or DPS
LM - DPS or Debuff
RK - Heals or DPS
Captain - Tank or Heals or DPS
Burglar - Debuff or DPS
Hunter - DPS or ?
There's no alternate roll for the hunter in any of those three boss fights. Or in the 3 mans either. Hell in Dragnakh if you bring a hunter to the final fight, you're two manning it! Scan the class list, is there another class in the Dragnakh fight that is completely useless?
What this means is, there's no flexibility. The hunter fills the dps roll. Period. They can't flex to heals obviously and they can't flex to Tank anymore. A good hunter could at least tank the Echoes of the Dead 3-mans. So, if you have that dps slot filled by another class that can match his dps or at least meet the threshold of "good enough" - which is all 8 of the other classes, the hunter must sit out to make room for that tank or healer.
Another way to put it, in any of the isengard 3 mans, you can run 2 of any of the above classes plus a third. Two wardens? One goes tank, another goes DPS. Two captains? One tanks, one heals (or DPS's). Two RK's? One heals one DPS's. Two hunters? That means no tank or no healer.
It'd be fine if the Hunter was still the king of single target DPS. If you absolutely want that one class that can dps better than any other, you can make the sacrifice of having to have a traditional group of tank/dps/healer. But that's not the case anymore is it? And we're not going to get that roll back because why? We can't become book 6 hunters!!
So our role is gone, nothing has replaced it. There's no alternative to it. Two hunters in a 3-man means no 3-man. So give us a goddamn secondary role!
You did read the other part of my post past raid correct? I did mention other areas other than raids.
As per your argument for 3 man instances. I have done a few with 2 Hunters but do not find them time useful to a degree when coupled with a healer to side with the two Hunters. I usually prefer other settups but to each to thar own on it all.
After reading more and more of your posts I am starting to see a single minded posting trend. You are entitled to your opinion and all but in the end the class is still DPS and CC. No we are not top dog DPS and havn't been for quite a while but as I said before on the matter we arn't the lowest (among dps classes possibly. i havn't parsed my champion in a while so)
Not a fan of absolution discussions when only portions of the conversation are targeted and not the whole thing. So this will conclude our little debate on Hunters.
Carry on holmes. We will most likely find another topic to debate on soon enough.
From a standing point of knowing the Hunter as I do I see the pull to the class as a great starting class for anyone for many reasons. Most of which have been mentioned by others so I will most likely tred onto the previouse points.
The hunter deals good enough damage you can safely solo nearly any content without much issue. Namely Epic Books to progress your story.
The sheer amount of utility function the hunter calls on is what crys to many as making a starting run easy for them.
Find a specific foe? NO PROB! Boom hit your tracking skills.
Pull lots of foes? Drop some traps or cc them with your skills.
Foe weak to fire? No prob. Douse that &&&&&& with fire oil and pew pew.
Foe weak to light? No prob. Douse that &&&&&& with light oil and pew pew.
Need to go somewhere? POOF! Outies like a belly button to your desired location. Even more locations coming with upcoming expansion.
Plenty of other reasons I like the Hunter but those stand as my front choices as to why it is sexy class to play. Hell I miss ports when I am on my alts lol.
You did read the other part of my post past raid correct? I did mention other areas other than raids.
But you never answered the question. You tried to answer your own question. For that you don't need a forums. You can stand in front of a mirror and ask and answer your own questions. "Hi do you like hunters?" "Hi well yes I do, thank you very much and aren't you just a handsome devil" and on and on it goes. Its rather pointless, even if still enteraining.
After reading more and more of your posts I am starting to see a single minded posting trend.
That I want hunters to be improved? Yes this is correct. That if I enter a discussion and ask a question, I want that question to be answered? Yes, I'm single minded in that as well. I'm not one to let some poster take me on a wild derailed goosechase as he brings up point after point that prove nothing in the attempt to shake free of the hold my argument has on him. Humanity's capacity to ignore truth never ceases to amaze me, and it becomes so prevelent here on a forums that its downright scary.
Take yourself for instance. You're happy where hunters are at. Maybe you have an alterior motive (creep) or maybe you don't. I'm making no accusations. If you're happy, good for you. But lets say Turbine listens to the players who aren't happy and they actually fix hunters. So now you basically have all your current love +1. What the hell is wrong with +1? Its a win/win situation for you. Its not like in fixing hunters they'd take away their dps. You'd lose nothing and potetially gain a ton. But you'd rather gain nothing. And why? To be right. To prove your point. Your opinion is more important to you than your own enjoyment of the game.
The Yellow Line has never worked and the sooner Turbine accept that fact, roll CC capabilities into passives and give us some useful secondary role the better.
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Originally Posted by Idiotvillage
Tommac-Mini, Shurmann-Cap, Theodolan-Guard, Thromdir-Hnt - Dancing in the Dark
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No surprise to me that Turbine isn't going to make it easy for a DPS class to put out a pile of damage without aggro consequences.
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