Thread: Why don't the developers simply balance pvp?

Hey all

Been wondering this a while now, we all know creeps are hopeless at low ranks, and that freep damage and healing is too high. Frankly anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves (just play both sides for a while to understand).

So why not just give all creeps rank 10 effectiveness at rank 0?
for progression offer the same as now but much smaller increments so the difference between low and high rank isn't so wide. Auto grant full audacity to all creeps (not available in the store so no skin off turbine's nose).

I'm not saying this would create perfect balance off the bat but two things are certain, it would be light years better than now and would be a hell of a lot easier to balance going forward.

This has two major benefits. It makes pvp far more balanced in that new players will be able to have an impact on fights and not simply get two shotted while doing insignificant damage or healing. Second it will improve player retention creep-side and the quality of pvp overall. The point of pvp is to test yourself against other players, this would promote a more even playing field.

So what are your arguments against this? I'm sure I can preempt some, such as:'but I spent a month gearing my toon, I have a RIGHT to autowin against new creeps'.
This is a terrible attitude for pvp IMO. The moors is entirely separate from normal lotro zones, anyone that enters should be prepared for a hard fight, but for a good test and fun while doing it. Fact is creeping on a new WL is the opposite of fun right now.

What are your thoughts? Lots of people seem to say they are off to GW2 but in the same breath seem to enjoy playing their mini/rk/champ/warden when it is basically the opposite of what pvp should be in an mmo.

Buff new creeps!

Bels

If u gave all creeps level 10 effectiveness why would any1 bother spending weeks leveling and gearing a freep and also paying for vip when they could spend around a hour to be better than allot of freeps.


What they really should do is separate freep PvE and PvP. Make a PvP version of freeps that could also be rolled at level 10. make them have to earn skills /gear/traits etc with rank like creeps do (or put them in the store as well). Doing something like that would allow PvE changes to not effect the moors so would be easier to balance things.That would be able to make both sides on sort of an + footing. Make sure that you let freeps keep the rank they have currently on that class with all the skills/traits etc that would of been earned by getting that rank.

Seems that while its a complex way to go about things initially it would be much easier to balance things since they wouldn't have to worry about it destroying freep ability to PvE

The only way they could ever hope to get things truly balanced, and I know this would be a stretch, to make PvMP have similar Freeps as they do Creeps. Log in, pick your race, start out as a level 80 "greenie".

Then they could balance the game as everyone has, for the most part, the same specs.

It can't and won't happen with Freeps the way they are with their actual characters they play in PvE. Too much variety and choices from everything from undergeared lowbies to overgeared/traited regulars. Every time something gets "fixed" something else gets "broken" in a never-ending pendulum cycle that is current PvMP.

I don't actually expect balance per se other than to have a chance at killing you, which is currently impossible since I came back and have 1 audacity while the long timers probably have it full. And I'm expected to grind PvE (&&&?) content to try earning 6k to get my next point or try getting in a raid (which has happened a few times heheh

I know things are changing on RoR from the devs letter so we will see. But as for me trying to get at least back to being able to 1v1... I don't see it happening before RoR

What they should do is buff creeps a bit and LET THEM BUY THEIR SKILLS WITH IN-GAME GOLD, not those stupid commendations. Freeps get to do this, so why can't creeps. You can still spend real money if you want to buy those things at low rank.

It's simply punitive and kills motivation for lowbie creeps.

No... just.. no... Don't just slap a couple bandages on a broken leg.

But having it so freeps start at newbie rank too won't solve a thing for balance. You will still have high ranks destroying low ranks.

What I'm suggesting is to make everyone high rank from the get go, freep and creep (high rank in sturdieness and not actual visual rank of course).

Also to argue that no one would bother playing freep if they could roll a good creep, well people roll new creeps all the time at the moment and there is no reason other than insanity to do that

To put it simply:

It isn't mirror play, ergo impossible to balance because of too many factors. Ironically an excuse people like to use in its defence (durr lotro is mega unique and therefore it is good). Only topped by "but man I have too much invested" as if time investment means anything in an MMO.

Awwww I lub you Bele <3 This is just how I'd like it in my dream world xD Also let freeps have free PvMP gear that's only useable in EM, and is also the only gear you can wear in EM. This way you don't have to grind to play freep, and they could get stealth nerfs to healing through the gear ^^

Originally Posted by thisisanewname

If u gave all creeps level 10 effectiveness why would any1 bother spending weeks leveling and gearing a freep and also paying for vip when they could spend around a hour to be better than allot of freeps.


What they really should do is separate freep PvE and PvP. Make a PvP version of freeps that could also be rolled at level 10. make them have to earn skills /gear/traits etc with rank like creeps do (or put them in the store as well). Doing something like that would allow PvE changes to not effect the moors so would be easier to balance things.That would be able to make both sides on sort of an + footing. Make sure that you let freeps keep the rank they have currently on that class with all the skills/traits etc that would of been earned by getting that rank.

Seems that while its a complex way to go about things initially it would be much easier to balance things since they wouldn't have to worry about it destroying freep ability to PvE

That's the way I would have done too if I were a dev, to seperate freep PvP and PvE.. kinda like Arena Net done theirs.

Because it's not a simple system.

Because they obviously don't care.

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if it was cause some of the devs play certain freep classes and would never allow creeps to be a challenge for said class.

Hypothetically speaking if a dev loved the Minstrel class the best would it be surprising that he/she would do whatever was in their power to continue to make changes to the class to make sure it stayed on top when fighting creeps? (despite any unbalancing issues it would cause in the moors)

I mean who is to say that devs don't have their own agenda.

(Disclaimer) The above is just a hypothetical situation that I dreamed up,don't take it seriously please.

"simply balance" is an oxymoron. Well, not technically, but you get my meaning

Originally Posted by Viloxus

What they should do is buff creeps a bit and LET THEM BUY THEIR SKILLS WITH IN-GAME GOLD, not those stupid commendations. Freeps get to do this, so why can't creeps. You can still spend real money if you want to buy those things at low rank.

This is what I always thought would work ^ Only problem is the Devs don't read the forums much so I'm not even sure they know the game is imbalanced... seeing as they never PvP with a greenie. They by default made their toons Rank 15.

Obviously, they haven't cared about PvP for what has been, 5 years, till like couple weeks ago, that has been proposed to us on paper? If they only can apply this to the game with no bugs (I suspect there will be bugs.. how many? who knows!).

Allow me to explain without the long-winded answers for the previous posters why they refrain from doing so:

Effort.

Originally Posted by thisisanewname

What they really should do is separate freep PvE and PvP. Make a PvP version of freeps that could also be rolled at level 10. make them have to earn skills /gear/traits etc with rank like creeps do (or put them in the store as well). Doing something like that would allow PvE changes to not effect the moors so would be easier to balance things.That would be able to make both sides on sort of an + footing. Make sure that you let freeps keep the rank they have currently on that class with all the skills/traits etc that would of been earned by getting that rank.

Seems that while its a complex way to go about things initially it would be much easier to balance things since they wouldn't have to worry about it destroying freep ability to PvE

Bingo

I don't think Any of the words in the title of this thread belong together

"developers" when referring to Lotro doesn't belong with "PvP' and "PvP" doesn't belong with "balance" as we know. "simple" and "developers" "PvP" don't go together either when referring to lotro. "simple balance" I don't think goes together any time!

In all seriousness there is really nothing simple about balancing PvP in LOTRO considering the past set ups we have had in the moors.

Originally Posted by Squelcher

Allow me to explain without the long-winded answers for the previous posters why they refrain from doing so:

Effort.

THIS^^

Its an mmo rpg, where you put time and effort on your char, to make him powerful and compete with other players.

Having players with zero playtime being on par with veterans, would work.. in an action game maybe ?

The reason why the new 'greenie' creeps cant come in to the game equal to level 75 freeps with semi decent gear is that freep rank isnt equal to creep rank. If a level 75 freep ranks up he gets nothing out of it while the creep have to rank to get their skills , passives and traits. One thing that people forget is that if we are talking about an equal to greenie creeps is that freeps dont have to be 75 to be in the moors, they can enter at level 45 to the moors. The 'greenie' freep equivalent of greenie creeps is pretty much anyone under level 75 and anyone under level 75 is pretty much free food for creeps, even greenie creeps.

I know that level and rank aren't equal but if you want new creeps to be buffed then technically to be equal you would either need to add real bonuses to freeps for ranking or make a buff like in Guild Wars to that makes anyone under level is about equal to the max level. Both of these ideas would totally mess up the moors so i would say that unless you want to unbalance the moors 500% worse then it is now we shouldn't make either side too different then they are now.

Also remember that not all freep classes are OP only 2 or 3 are crazy OP (as well as 1 or 2 creep classes if played by a person with some who tries and doesn't expect to be able to take on a freep who has had work to just get their freep into the moors and be on level with creeps) and if you try and make creep classes equal to those few OP classes you are going to be vastly OP in the eyes of the freeps who are on par with you atm. So pretty much as some other people said that if you want to buff creeps use the buff of effort and experience and you will be able to be equal to any enemy with in reason.

(if this post makes your eyes bleed, make you lose your mine or temper please contact a doctor ASAP)

Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon

THIS^^

Its an mmo rpg, where you put time and effort on your char, to make him powerful and compete with other players.

Having players with zero playtime being on par with veterans, would work.. in an action game maybe ?

Not what I meant. What I meant is that they do not do it because it would require too much effort on their part to balance it.

I would also have to draw attention to the "simply" "balance" "pvp"

Because considering there hasn't been a single MMO I am aware of that has contained a PvP aspect, where there haven't been complaints that it's unbalanced, I would wager that it is anything but simple. I might even go so far as to say that it's an unreachable dream, save perhaps the cases where the sides are exactly the same in all aspects.

Oh, and blabbity blah, Devs don't care, yadda yadda yadda.

Even if they theoretically did, it wouldn't stop people from complaining.

they cater to freeps because they only really care for pve as they have stated directly so putting serious time in to make an equal ground for freeps and creeps is a little too much for them to do. Since trying to balance people who have and number of possible ways to build a character with gear, traits, legendary items with a group that only has traits as its only really defining difference in building a character its a pretty hard thing to accomplish. Given one can stack one stat to get an extreme boost in damage with some hit to health or do the opposite or aim for a middle ground with each of those type varying in severity do the plethora of things that can be used to customize it, while the other has its base stats determined from the get go and even its stat growth is capped and its customization is not really an option as every creep class' passive traits are determine as in only x class can get 5 in health because thats what Turbine decided prior.

Sure you can get corruptions which can provide some manner of customizing but the 5% differences can't match the 20% on legendary items or the 50% crit multiplier that freeps can get. Its really hard to reach a common ground with the more customization freeps get over the creeps who are almost the same as the other as far as overall customization goes. I'd what really screwed the balance was LIs since they provide pretty worhtwhile benefits to skills as i said before such as 20% damage increases and the like on top of 3 teirs of LIs whose overall dps difference in tiers is enough to make you want an upgrade.

Looking back in SoA the top dps of 1h weapon was 26.5 there only a handful of weapons that had that dps but there were still plenty of one maybe 1 or 2 points lower that were much more easy to obtain. This I believe made pacing of combat 10 times easier as you could work off the knowledge of the best dps weapon and the more common ones were relatively close and no need to factor stacking a stat to such an extent that it would skew the overall dps to an unreasonable amount. Thus deciding creeps base dps came to be 10 times easier as they can more easily determine a workable range as the discrepancies were minimal. Which made it the essential golden age of pvp since it was as close to balanced as it ever will get, since now they'd have to account for too much junk they put in for pve.

Originally Posted by Rainyman

Even if they theoretically did, it wouldn't stop people from complaining.

This applies to every game. People will always complain, regardless of the genre or of the game itself. But it would reduce the complaints.

Originally Posted by Nyrion

I would also have to draw attention to the "simply" "balance" "pvp"

Because considering there hasn't been a single MMO I am aware of that has contained a PvP aspect, where there haven't been complaints that it's unbalanced, I would wager that it is anything but simple. I might even go so far as to say that it's an unreachable dream, save perhaps the cases where the sides are exactly the same in all aspects.

Oh, and blabbity blah, Devs don't care, yadda yadda yadda.

Yes it is an uttainable utopia in any game with more than one class or any potential for different numbers on either side. However can anyone really deny that lotro has the worst pvp balance of any mmo? I've played many and it has always been the worst here.

The thing the strikes me, and why I made the thread, is that actually rank 10 plus creeps are not that unbalanced at all. Yes some freep classes are still stronger, but at least higher ranks are competitive to an extent. Someone said that not all freep classes are OP, well actually ALL freeps are OP at what they do. Just because a high rank flyer warg counters a hunter doesn't mean that hunters aren't far too good at 2 shotting well over 50% of the creep population from stealth.

Which is why IMO if all creeps were made roughly equal (with high ranks still rewarded of course with minor gameplay options and an increased amount of cosmetic options too) and the things that make freeps overpowered are toned down (crit multipliers, remove crit healing altogether) then at least we would have a roughly equal starting point from which to then attempt to improve the balance of the game.

At the moment things are so completely out of whack, one can only imagine the process that allowed things to get to this state. Lotro has never had good pvp balance, but things are at their worst right now for me. The positive that comes with RoR seems to be that the debs, or a dev has realised that a lot of people actually love pvp. And a lot would come back for improvements, because actually, when all is said and done, until the current moors lotro has some of the most fu n open world pvp of any mmo I've tried. Most open world pvp fails after just a few months as it ends up in arenas and instances, so lotro is refreshing and should be making the most of its assets.

Anyway here's hoping that the new changes improve things somewhat, but that the work continues to improve the experience, especially for new creeps.

Turbine's response to balance.

Originally Posted by Bels_illuminati

Someone said that not all freep classes are OP, well actually ALL freeps are OP at what they do.

LM. And, imo guard also.

Originally Posted by Grusk

LM. And, imo guard also.

LM debuffs (aoe windlore, fire lore etc) along with SI is pretty powerful in groups. Add in CC and AOE DPS and good LMs are definitely powerful and potential game changers.

RE: Balanced pvp....would love it. Never going to happen though....and frankly I will be very surprised if its actually any better in RoR (minus the buffs from map control masking continued imbalances).