Thread: Attention Turbine Devs: The legendary item system is not fun

Attention Turbine Devs: The legendary item system is neither "legendary" nor fun. I hate it and here is my personal example as proof as to the let down of the current implementation of the LI system.

I lead raids in a casual-raiding kin on Arkenstone. Our core group of raiders has just recently learned and managed to get our first tier 2 Orthanc wing down and we have been farming it over the past months of June and July. We have completed the Tier 2 challenge about 5-6 times and are working to get a 1st ager for everyone in the raid group before the expansion comes which is about 1 month away. I realize the Orthanc raid has been out for several months now, but being that my casual raiding kin only raids 1-2 times a week for a limited amount of time, we have only recently begun working on trying to figure out the Lightening wing on Tier 2. Please don't be judgmental about us being casual raiders.

My guardian is one of the main raiding tanks. He has two 2nd age LIs for tanking. Both of those LIs I have spent a lot of time working on them and recently have them with all tier 6 legacies, as well as 3 crystals slotted in them both. I did not get lucky enough to get more than 3 major legacies on either LI. And I was not willing to keep grinding out 2nd age symbols in hopes that one day I would get lucky to get more than 3 major legacies. I have worked very long and hard to get his tanking LIs to the level they are today.

This week on one of our raid nights I was lucky enough to roll the highest roll in our raid group for a 1st age symbol after we completed Lightening T2 challenge. Excited about being able to obtain my first 1st age legendary item, I contemplated whether I should make a 1-handed tanking sword or a Guardian's tanking belt. Well after another night of raiding and having trouble holding aggro away from one of our kin's hunters who has a 1st age bow and had blade-brother buffs on him, I knew I needed to make a 1st age tanking belt because that is the only way I can currently increase my guardian's threat generating abilities.

So last night I had a kinnie craft my 1st age Guardian's belt... Much to my dismay, I was let down terribly by the &&&& we call the "Legendary Item System". First of all the passive stat on my 2nd age belt was +1% Perceived Threat... the passive stat I got on my 1st age belt, which one would think would be better than a 2nd age belt, was the same +1% Perceived Threat... No gain there. 2ndly, I was again not lucky enough to get any more than 3 major legacies. I did however manage to get the most sought after major tanking legacy called "Threat Gen Up", but it was a measly tier 2. Having it start at a tier 2 after identifying it is no different than having to replace the legacy from another LI which also starts at a tier 2.

So it will probably take me a month of grinding out more instances just to get enough medallions so as to barter for scrolls of greater empowerment just to max out all the legacies on my new 1st age belt. Just in time for the expansion where it will be useless anyways because there is no new instances coming with the expansion, only solo content. I will also have to barter for a scroll of greater delving, and I will have to purchase a relic removal scroll so as to get my tanking relics out of my current belt. Or I will have to grind for more relics and shards so as to be able to slot the proper ones into my new 1st age belt.

So I am stuck with a 1st age tanking belt that is no better than my fully maxed out, 3 crystal slotted, 2nd age belt. This has been a major let down for me. The past 2 months of learning the strats in Orthanc, and leading my kin to beat the Tier 2 challenge, in hopes of obtaining the best items in the game only to be let down that they are not the best items in the game. I cannot express more what a huge let down this has been. From the subpar loot in Orthanc on tier 1 and tier 2, to the lack of advantage you get from a 1st ager over a 2nd ager, to the enjoyment lacking grind we call the Legendary Item System.

Please either redevelop the LI system, or get rid of it. It is not fun nor entertaining to be let down so much. All that effort and time spent for nothing. Hopefully Turbine Devs and the game producer will read this and think about it.

Originally Posted by Vysion34

Stuff

I'll be the first to agree with you that the LI system is generally not a good thing. Having said that, I have no sympathy for the situation you have apparently put yourself in.

You should know that the chances of getting decent above the line stats are bad, you should know that an extra rank or two of Skills Threat Up won't make a noticeable difference in threat, you should know that the chances of getting more than 3 Majors is bad, you should know that a 2nd Age with 3 crystals almost equals a 1st age in terms of Shield Use Rank, and you certainly should know that it will take time to get your new LI leveled and ready to use based on past experience.

Here's what you and any other guardian should've done in your position:

1. Pass on the roll if there are any DPS classes without a 1A.
2. ID and level the new LI to 30 before making any decisions about other LIs that you're currently making use of.
3. Deconstruct the new LI (at level 31) if it sucks.

Originally Posted by Nicepants42

Here's what you and any other guardian should've done in your position:

1. Pass on the roll if there are any DPS classes without a 1A.
2. ID and level the new LI to 30 before making any decisions about other LIs that you're currently making use of.
3. Deconstruct the new LI (at level 31) if it sucks.

Wait, why should he have passed on it? He explained he was losing aggro to DPS monsters. If he has the chance to fix that, why shouldn't he?

Originally Posted by Dorothir

Wait, why should he have passed on it? He explained he was losing aggro to DPS monsters. If he has the chance to fix that, why shouldn't he?

to be blunt, there are a couple things wrong here that i can see

a) i understand that they are a casual raiding kin, but having a first age DPS weapon is vastly superior to having a first age tanking weapon or belt as far as successful raiding goes. bear with me. which reminds me, crystals don't really do much for you... in ALL honesty, you would have saved yourself time and grief having sold those to buy empowerment scrolls or given them to a dps class. i'm not kidding, the increase in dps on a tanking weapon through the crystals does not matter. leading me to point b.

b) i understand that you are losing aggro to hunters. (i assume it is a hunter, because burg/champ dps aggro is easy to manage. ebb, hips, provoke should take care of it easily enough). again, to be blunt, it would be in your best interests as far as a) your time in-game spent grinding for scrolls and whatnot, b) your kin's time spent raiding, and c) your skill as a player to:

1) focus on coordinating with your dps as to the best strategy for aggro management. maybe stick a champ in group with the players that pull the most aggro and have the champ rise off the dps and ebb onto the guard. maybe your hunter needs to figure out the optimal time to have the tank engage/beneath notice. etc

2) ask a successful raiding tank (ask Dwarrowdel or Gloriandor, if either still play LOTRO, or a tank in Noldor, or any one of the kins that have had a measure of success while raiding) what his rotation is and try to iron out some of the kinks in your tanking. not to say you suck obv, but you have stated that you guys are casual and i naturally assume that there is room for improvement.

hope that helps, and all that said, i miss the SoA system too :P

Originally Posted by Vysion34

Well after another night of raiding and having trouble holding aggro away from one of our kin's hunters who has a 1st age bow and had blade-brother buffs on him, I knew I needed to make a 1st age tanking belt because that is the only way I can currently increase my guardian's threat generating abilities.

This situation is not the Guardian's problem to solve. It is responsibility of the Hunter to throttle back. Hold their damage output down to a rate the the Guardian can hold aggro. Hunters have a lot of tools available to change the tempo. A good Hunter works with their main tank to keep the situation under control.

Bad Hunters pump out so much damage that the Hunter ends up dead or becomes an emergency that the entire Raid has to stop and save the Hunter's life. A Hunter being beat on is a poor damage generator. A Hunter is always better off being left alone. Happily plinking away.

One of happiest experiences in a 3-man instance with a lot of mobs was when our heavy class that was doing the tank role. Yelled at Tantalus. Are you doing anything? Nothing is attacking you. I responded - You are the best tank ever. I standing here in the eye of Storm. Killing stuff right and left while being left alone.

You guys all missed the point of the thread.

I can hold aggro against all the champs and hunters in my raiding kin. I can't hold aggro against them when they have the Captain's blade brother buffs on them.

My 2nd age belt and 2nd age 1 handed sword are both maxed out. Meaning nothing else can be added to them to increase their usefulness. So in order to gain some more aggro holding edge against blade-brothered DPS targets, the 2 things I can improve are my belt and my 1 handed sword. A first age belt would allow for more points to spend as well as a higher Threat Gen Up rating. A first age weapon would allow for slightly more DPS. All I need is a little more threat in order to not lose aggro against the blade-brother buffed DPS classes so that they can keep hitting away without them having to worry about pulling aggro. I can tell the DPS classes to go easy on their DPS. I can tell the captains to not use To Arms (Blade-brother) or Strength of Will (Blade-brother) until a good aggro lead has been acquired. These are viable alternatives to increasing my own threat generation. BUT, I know that with a 1st age belt and 1st age 1 handed sword I can increase my threat generation so that DPS classes don't have to worry as much. I finally won a 1st age symbol and have the ability to do it, but the point of the thread is that the current implementation of the LI system is not enjoyable what-so-ever, especially after a person has worked so long and hard to build a set of 2nd age LIs only for them to be worthless when one finally wins a 1st age symbol. Not to mention the lack of enthusiasm when the next increase in level cap is only a month away.

Thank you for your ideas and suggestions.

yea i can empathize for sure, i was just trying to give advice where i could

gl

I guess you didn't get the memo. No fun + Items for it being able to be purchased form LOTRO Store = More cash. I don't think they want it to be fun or people would level it the normal way instead of spending cash. Same with virtues. The "boring" aspect is just part of a sales scheme that apparently WORKS quite well. Plus, with LI's, you're working on a gamble since you won't always get everything on one LI--so there's a chance of spending 2X.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

This situation is not the Guardian's problem to solve. It is responsibility of the Hunter to throttle back. Hold their damage output down to a rate the the Guardian can hold aggro. Hunters have a lot of tools available to change the tempo. A good Hunter works with their main tank to keep the situation under control.

As a main Guard I'd love to agree with you here, but I cannot. DPS races have made it necessary that DPS classes go all-out, I think when my kin cleared F&F challenge our hunter was at something like 3,2k dps or the likes...

BUT on lightning this shouldn't happen of course... lightning is not a DPS race, at least not right from the start; you have until around 1.050.000 boss morale before the first timer starts... until then, tell your dps classes to go easy (we usually do it this way: let the first Guard "explode" once by letting his shock buff go to ten, then the other Guard takes over with Engage and then the dps classes start, before that, nobody except the first tank attacks the boss).

Also @OP: are you wearing the Laingarth set? If not, you should. The increased Threat-gen from Shield-blow is a great tool for getting more aggro, I'd go 5 parts Laingarth plus the shoulders from Pits T2 (Huranc) for lots of incoming heal.

Also be sure to keep the CD skills for an emergency... you lose aggro? Engage right away. Engage misses? Challenge the Darkness. And only use CtD as a backup for Engage in a boss-fight, because the 10-min CD means you can only use it once, so use it wisely (though personally I don't have it traited for this boss-fight, since my Engage never seems to miss and I need the yellow cap-stone, the legendary shield-blow and for this fight of course Threat Stance).

Also DON'T waste your time and symbol on a FA weapon... the increased DPS is useless... a Guard once told me he tanks via DPS... me and my kin's Guard can only laugh about him... but he also thinks that &&&&&& Skirmish breastplate with a lot of morale on it is a good tanking item...

Did I forget anything?

Originally Posted by Sir_Thorblod

As a main Guard I'd love to agree with you here, but I cannot. DPS races have made it necessary that DPS classes go all-out, I think when my kin cleared F&F challenge our hunter was at something like 3,2k dps or the likes.

What I see is that Guardian loses aggro to the Hunter. Hunter ends up dead. Soon everybody is dead. You get a angry discussion:

1) We have the worst Guardian evah.
2) We have the worst Hunter evah.
3) The bunny - You two (Guardian and Hunter) need to learn to work together.

Question for you. What is your solution in a DPS race? The Hunter keeps taking aggro. Dead Hunter. Group is wiped out. Do you drop group? I can not do this. Get a better Guardian. Do you replace the Hunter with someone that doesn't hit as hard? In the hopes that you can finish the instance because you have a Hunter that does not die on you?

In reality a lot of battles do not go - Hunter goes maximum DPS. Guardian holds a solid lock on aggro.

this is why i left LOTRO the grind fest has gotten out of hand for gods sake. buffing out a toon is crazy amount of time.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

What I see is that Guardian loses aggro to the Hunter. Hunter ends up dead. Soon everybody is dead. You get a angry discussion:

1) We have the worst Guardian evah.
2) We have the worst Hunter evah.
3) The bunny - You two (Guardian and Hunter) need to learn to work together.

Question for you. What is your solution in a DPS race? The Hunter keeps taking aggro. Dead Hunter. Group is wiped out. Do you drop group? I can not do this. Get a better Guardian. Do you replace the Hunter with someone that doesn't hit as hard? In the hopes that you can finish the instance because you have a Hunter that does not die on you?

In reality a lot of battles do not go - Hunter goes maximum DPS. Guardian holds a solid lock on aggro.

as I said, it depends on the fight...
On acid for example we start with the Guardian using Challenge (traited for duration), during that time all dps go all out, then after Challenge Guard uses Engage, Champ transfers aggro, minnie uses call to greatness on the Guard, Burgs provoke...

Giants challenge is similar but more extreme, Guard has to use everything, Challenge twice, CtD, Engage and the first Giant has to be dead within one minute, during which the Guard can only hold aggro via Forced Taunts...

Don't get me wrong, I don't like that, it's just the way it is with dps races these days... a poor concept for boss fights imo, but that's what Turbine use a lot these days, sadly...

Originally Posted by haroldhnicholos

this is why i left LOTRO the grind fest has gotten out of hand for gods sake. buffing out a toon is crazy amount of time.

lol

So you just hang out on the forums of a game you don't play?

To the OP. I'm not understanding how you didn't know all of this before starting on the first ager. You clearly went through it with two second age weapons, and most likely went through some of it on multiple third age weapons.

I enjoy the LI system right now. It is giving me something to do while I wait for Rohan.

Originally Posted by Sir_Thorblod

as I said, it depends on the fight...
On acid for example we start with the Guardian using Challenge (traited for duration), during that time all dps go all out, then after Challenge Guard uses Engage, Champ transfers aggro, minnie uses call to greatness on the Guard, Burgs provoke...

Giants challenge is similar but more extreme, Guard has to use everything, Challenge twice, CtD, Engage and the first Giant has to be dead within one minute, during which the Guard can only hold aggro via Forced Taunts...

Don't get me wrong, I don't like that, it's just the way it is with dps races these days... a poor concept for boss fights imo, but that's what Turbine use a lot these days, sadly...

This explanation seems to be a repeat of your previous post. Do it this way and you win.

You never answered my question. What does your group do if your Guardian can not hold the aggro? Does your group give up? Is there only one solution to this battle? Is the count down clock that strict?

You will all be killed if the clock hits 60. The members need the "Correct Gear Score" otherwise do not bother. There is no room for a mistake or some other issue. A Hunter has a dumbo moment - doesn't to fire an attack skill for a few seconds. The Guardian has a threat skill that does not execute due to an internet problem. You are all dead?

In Mass Effect some missions have something like 180 second countdown clock. The clock runs out you are killed. This is an example of a DPS race which a fixed requirement.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

You never answered my question. What does your group do if your Guardian can not hold the aggro? Does your group give up? Is there only one solution to this battle? Is the count down clock that strict?

If the giant isn't dead in 60 seconds you essentially lose challenge and need to reset. There is no real other way to do this fight. If the tank can't hold it everyone dies. There is no way the tank can hold it outside of forced taunts and the like.

No, the LI system is not fun. But the First Age grind, so to speak, has been gotten rid of via Crystals. The only really grindy part of it now is getting the appropriate amount of Pool A's...I nearly lost my hair on failing First Age Songbook after Songbook on my Minstrel because they didn't have enough pool A's. But Turbine is introducing another store option to fix this inherent shortcoming in the system.

Yes the LI system is pure garbage. Just one more reason why I won't be continuing when the expansion comes out. Another 10 character levels of fluff that contribute nothing and on top of that, more time wasted messing around with legendaries to recreate something I already have. No thanks.

Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk

If the giant isn't dead in 60 seconds you essentially lose challenge and need to reset. There is no real other way to do this fight. If the tank can't hold it everyone dies. There is no way the tank can hold it outside of forced taunts and the like.

You really did mean it works like some of the missions in Mass Effect series. Get it done with n seconds or fail.

Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk

No, the LI system is not fun. But the First Age grind, so to speak, has been gotten rid of via Crystals. The only really grindy part of it now is getting the appropriate amount of Pool A's...I nearly lost my hair on failing First Age Songbook after Songbook on my Minstrel because they didn't have enough pool A's. But Turbine is introducing another store option to fix this inherent shortcoming in the system.

I am not willing to spend dollars to buy something that I am going to throw away when the level cap goes up again. I will spend Turbine Points on permanent items like shared storage upgrades. I will not grind Legendary Items to get four or more Majors.

If you need this kind of time and money investment on throw aways to be able to complete content elements. I will not bother trying to do content. I will not bother fine tuning my Legendary Items. I went to a lot effort for my 65s. I am not going thru that process again.

I only have 3rd ages. I could not work up the energy to get a second age. I could not get interest to get an empowerment scroll. The Legendary Item system is not interesting to me any more.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

This explanation seems to be a repeat of your previous post. Do it this way and you win.

You never answered my question. What does your group do if your Guardian can not hold the aggro? Does your group give up? Is there only one solution to this battle? Is the count down clock that strict?

You will all be killed if the clock hits 60. The members need the "Correct Gear Score" otherwise do not bother. There is no room for a mistake or some other issue. A Hunter has a dumbo moment - doesn't to fire an attack skill for a few seconds. The Guardian has a threat skill that does not execute due to an internet problem. You are all dead?

Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk

If the giant isn't dead in 60 seconds you essentially lose challenge and need to reset. There is no real other way to do this fight. If the tank can't hold it everyone dies. There is no way the tank can hold it outside of forced taunts and the like.

This. Giants challenge is probably the worst designed raid encounter in this game... it just plain sucks, one mistake you have to start over again, I think it's worse than Saruman T2 (which sucks too, since it's four phases which are mostly plain boring but you have to do and then comes pure nightmare... of course if you fail the nightmare you have to do the boring part over again, which takes about 20 minutes... not fun...).

Oh and you don't get killed if you don't kill the First Giant in 60 sec, but you fail the challenge... you can still do the questmode, but questmode on the other hand is so ridiculously easy, one has to wonder what the devs where thinking when designing this fight... and considering this is raid id 1 after all, I think the challenge shouldn't be that hard, but then again, id 1 in Ost Dunhoth was the hardest challenge next to Gortheron too, since the counter was ridiculously low (now with 75 of course it's ridiculously high xD)...

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

You really did mean it works like some of the missions in Mass Effect series. Get it done with n seconds or fail.I am not willing to spend dollars to buy something that I am going to throw away when the level cap goes up again. I will spend Turbine Points on permanent items like shared storage upgrades. I will not grind Legendary Items to get four or more Majors.

Well, the legendary grind sucks, I think we can all agree to that... worst thing in the game...

Originally Posted by Sir_Thorblod

Oh and you don't get killed if you don't kill the First Giant in 60 sec, but you fail the challenge.

I do this kind of content for the phat loot. Our group fails the Challenge. No loot for you Bunny. It is push the reset and try again. I appreciate that Turbine doesn't insta kill like some Mass Effect missions. Have to deal with Lotro defeat penalties.

I have never been fond of designers coding content in a such a way that "There is only one solution". You look at some of the 2012 games that are coming like "Dishonored":
http://www.ingame.msnbc.msn.com/tech...s-style-933315
I believe there are three different major solution types for everything. In past most single player games used the choose your class - lock in the method that this class is best at. It looks like Dishonored allows you to pick the method you want at the moment.

For me, the replay value and fun of the older instances is trying to complete the instance using a different group mix and tactics. Which is something that seems to have been lost in the newer instances like the ones introduced with Rise of Isengard.

A large part of the fun of the original Mass Effect is the choices. I going to blow em up with a Soldier, Adept and Engineer. Lets try Renegade and a Paragon choices. Lets romance Kaidan, Ashley, Laira ... The replay value is going thru different paths in the story. Or doing the combat missions with different team members and different classes. Hearing the unique conversations like what happens if you do the Samesh Bhatia assignment with Ashley Williams as one of your squad members.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

I do this kind of content for the phat loot. Our group fails the Challenge. No loot for you Bunny. It is push the reset and try again. I appreciate that Turbine doesn't insta kill like some Mass Effect missions. Have to deal with Lotro defeat penalties.

I have never been fond of designers coding content in a such a way that "There is only one solution".

I think it wasn't intended that way, it's just been poorly designed and not WAI, so now there is basically only one way (DPS race and burg stacking)...

I hate the legendary system too. My first age belt ended up with 1% passives and only 3 majors. I still do fine tanking but I hate missing out on improvements due to something I have no control over.

It's not worth replacing either because I'm not going waste all the extra shards/empowerment scrolls over something so stupid. And i'm definately not going pay turbine to improve the belt that should have never been that &&&&ty in the first place.