Thread: Mini - unstoppable killing machine?

So some time ago i made Dwarf mini as my Alt character. Im lvl 24 currently and i really enjoy playing mini thou one thing really concerns me ..mini is restless killing machine even thou he is supposed to be a healer ? . I did GB few hours ago and i actually outdamaged champion,hunter and RK. Its uber easy, you can one shot almost any monster at your level range. It actually took me 20minutes to get from 23lvl to 24lvl which is insane .. all you need is few power potions to keep you going. Its most likely strange to hear that someone actually playing mini would complain about him being too strong but im just wondering is mini so imba all game long or at certain point he levels down to normal playing rate? Im looking for some challenge in games so one shooting everything isint perfect concept of 'fun' for me.

Minis are pretty much unstoppable. I have a lvl 75 , and she can solo most things that my hunter husband at 75 can't.. And in the moors minis are a force to be reckoned with,,, Just ask my warg ..lol... altho I don't play my mini in the moors..Alot do , and they totally are op out there , with the right gear, ect..

Few things are more fearsome than a DPS minnie.

As you level, monster health increases exponentially, so you'll lose your one shot coda soon enough. Enjoy it while it lasts.

Maybe it's my gear or just a quirk of the place I'm at but I've noticed a distinct decrease in survivability around lvl 70. Used to be that I could nuke 3 mobs at a time without really having to heal up and doing quests 3 levels above me was easy. Now I'm dying repeatedly and actually have to watch what I'm doing. It feels...odd.

I have a feeling that part of the problem is my LIs which haven't been upgraded in at least 10 levels, haha. Still killing things 10x faster than my cappy was at that level though

You just need to adjust your expectations.

One of my friends who has a level cap mini is playing a captain along with my lower level mini, a couple guards and champ rounds out the group.

He heals on his cappy, I AoE DPS everything with my mini (despite being heal traited myself), and the others are just there to pick up loot and experience.

Yes, minstrel DPS is the most boring, non-challenging, not fun experience I've found in the game so far. As an alternative, try healing instead, you'll find fights actually last minutes (several times longer), your group will then be able to take some damage, which you can then heal. Just be sure nobody eats ICMR or vitality food, and doesn't pop scrolls or tokens, so there is some damage to heal, or you might be twiddling your thumbs and switch back to Warspeech and get bored out of your mind.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

I completely disagree with the people that says the minis are OP. Sure they have excellent burst AoE DPS. BUT if you fail to kill the mobs with your 4 AoE skills (which 3 of them have a 30 second cool-down) you'll have a hard time surviving (you can't pull more then 3 mobs a time, since 3 out of the 4 AoE skills have a max target of 3) without healing. Got crited 3 times in a row? Now you have 1000 morale left. If we can heal and damage so good it's because the heavy classes were too powerful compared to us (I'm looking at you champs) so the devs had to balance things out and give us something to compensate for the fact that light classes have 5000 less morale and 70% less mitigation.

Originally Posted by HugoHu

So some time ago i made Dwarf mini as my Alt character. Im lvl 24 currently and i really enjoy playing mini thou one thing really concerns me ..mini is restless killing machine even thou he is supposed to be a healer ? . I did GB few hours ago and i actually outdamaged champion,hunter and RK. Its uber easy, you can one shot almost any monster at your level range. It actually took me 20minutes to get from 23lvl to 24lvl which is insane .. all you need is few power potions to keep you going. Its most likely strange to hear that someone actually playing mini would complain about him being too strong but im just wondering is mini so imba all game long or at certain point he levels down to normal playing rate? Im looking for some challenge in games so one shooting everything isint perfect concept of 'fun' for me.

Wait till you get anthem of composure, you won't even need the power pots anymore.

Originally Posted by AtzumoKayami

I completely disagree with the people that says the minis are OP. Sure they have excellent burst AoE DPS. BUT if you fail to kill the mobs with your 4 AoE skills (which 3 of them have a 30 second cool-down) you'll have a hard time surviving (you can't pull more then 3 mobs a time, since 3 out of the 4 AoE skills have a max target of 3) without healing. Got crited 3 times in a row? Now you have 1000 morale left. If we can heal and damage so good it's because the heavy classes were too powerful compared to us (I'm looking at you champs) so the devs had to balance things out and give us something to compensate for the fact that light classes have 5000 less morale and 70% less mitigation.

Pretty much this.

Emachine

Maybe it's my gear or just a quirk of the place I'm at but I've noticed a distinct decrease in survivability around lvl 70. Used to be that I could nuke 3 mobs at a time without really having to heal up and doing quests 3 levels above me was easy. Now I'm dying repeatedly and actually have to watch what I'm doing. It feels...odd.

I have a feeling that part of the problem is my LIs which haven't been upgraded in at least 10 levels, haha. Still killing things 10x faster than my cappy was at that level though

It depends. I found 70-75 much easier as quest rewards were pretty good but vitality was an issue due to everything stacking will. I had to do a lot of rebalancing stats between 70 and 75. You'll need to work on Zeal, if you haven't already. 3rd age LIs on level are better than first agers ten levels below. You'll get a symbol when you finish the epic for a spanking new second ager.

Also some levels are easier than others, as skills kick in, class gets powerful and then mobs increase and it gets harder again.

RJFerret

You just need to adjust your expectations.

Yes, minstrel DPS is the most boring, non-challenging, not fun experience I've found in the game so far. As an alternative, try healing instead, you'll find fights actually last minutes (several times longer), your group will then be able to take some damage, which you can then heal. Just be sure nobody eats ICMR or vitality food, and doesn't pop scrolls or tokens, so there is some damage to heal, or you might be twiddling your thumbs and switch back to Warspeech and get bored out of your mind.

I've met lots of champs who can solo end game group content. The minstrel thread on this (soloing group stuff) is very small in comparison.

Clearly WS is intended for solo levelling, in the main: it is how it is, in my opinion, to overcome the previous shortage of minstrels. If you remember levelling a minstrel solo before the 2011 updates you would remember the meaning of squishy, slow and defenceless. Because of this, the 'kill it quick' crew got bored with the class because it was fragile and slow to level. It was also changed because our primary role, group healing just didn't exist as an option for most minstrels in recent years, until they got to Moria. Hence Minstrels were disappearing between 35 and 45.

Now, of course, the minstrel is the fave/demon of the moors crowd because it's allegedly OP and as easy to level fast as a champ or as a hunter used to be.... but that's a PvP balance issue- not a freep class issue

Personally I almost never trait warrior skald because I rolled a minstrel to heal. I'm just grateful I don't have to wait a week to find a group to do the harder stuff anymore. And I don't have to retrait everytime I want to do landscape or most solo content. I like the options in play style.

I've been saying this for a while. A Minstrel is indeed an unstoppable killing machine against nearly anything.

In War Speech, you do good damage, and now we can heal ourselves repeatedly for excellent heals. Now, I have no problem with that in principle. Our healing is our version of defense. Guardians have heavy armour and lots of health. Loremasters have lots of controls and a pet to distract their enemy. Minstrels heal themselves. All copacetic.

However, Minstrels ALSO have a Coda that restores power. That means that you just have to hit that coda every time it comes up and you will never run out of power. Having infinite power means having infinite health. A foe would have to do a LOT of damage (or seriously hamper your inductions) to make a dent.

Skjald took on a Cargul on his own in Angmar, a rare elite. He also took on a rather nasty big bad guy in Mirkwood recently. He handled them both (though, not easily - it does take timing, skill and patience).

Minstrels are, I think, the most powerful class in the game, at present.

Originally Posted by Tiamo

I've been saying this for a while. A Minstrel is indeed an unstoppable killing machine against nearly anything.

In War Speech, you do good damage, and now we can heal ourselves repeatedly for excellent heals. Now, I have no problem with that in principle. Our healing is our version of defense. Guardians have heavy armour and lots of health. Loremasters have lots of controls and a pet to distract their enemy. Minstrels heal themselves. All copacetic.

However, Minstrels ALSO have a Coda that restores power. That means that you just have to hit that coda every time it comes up and you will never run out of power. Having infinite power means having infinite health. A foe would have to do a LOT of damage (or seriously hamper your inductions) to make a dent.

Skjald took on a Cargul on his own in Angmar, a rare elite. He also took on a rather nasty big bad guy in Mirkwood recently. He handled them both (though, not easily - it does take timing, skill and patience).

Minstrels are, I think, the most powerful class in the game, at present.

I can agree with the first part here. It's no use denying that a "well played/geared" minstrel is op. You also pointed out a very important balance, other classes have a full complement of skills to make them survivable.
However, The addition of a power return was just bringing the minni in line with the other classes. I can't speak for the burg, but all the others classes have a power return skill. I know RoR will make some changes... We shall see.

-E

The OP stated that he wanted a challenge from this game.. well in levling there are no-challenge-at-all !
u can run around as a headless chicken and still get lvl 75 in a reasonable time phrase.. If ur are used to mmo`s and know what you are doing u will get there really fast.

If u have quest gear and bad Legendary items from lvl 50+ it will take u longer to kill stuff, as the DPS improvement on a sword for minstrels is huge
20% call of òrome damage
30% piercing cry damage
30% minor ballad damage
more targets to call of the second age
and less resist rating on call skills

If u have this on a legendary item that is suitable at your level + the legendary trait for warrior-skald trait line u will have no problem at all killing everything in your way.. If u lack some of the legacies or traits it will only make it slower not more challenging..

If u PvMP with a minstrel with only end-game gear and maxed out first ages there should be no creeps that can beat you 1vs1 and u will find that u will win most 2vs1 fights aswell..
If u love the store and buy brands u can win 3-4 creeps

Happy levling : )

Originally Posted by Tiamo

Minstrels are, I think, the most powerful class in the game, at present.

A warden can live through a LOT too. It's a close call there. Mini, imo, takes more planning of cd's and when to do what. As a warden it's just charge in and keep up defenses/lifetaps/HoTs till everything's dead.

Originally Posted by AtzumoKayami

I completely disagree with the people that says the minis are OP. Sure they have excellent burst AoE DPS. BUT if you fail to kill the mobs with your 4 AoE skills (which 3 of them have a 30 second cool-down) you'll have a hard time surviving (you can't pull more then 3 mobs a time, since 3 out of the 4 AoE skills have a max target of 3) without healing. Got crited 3 times in a row? Now you have 1000 morale left. If we can heal and damage so good it's because the heavy classes were too powerful compared to us (I'm looking at you champs) so the devs had to balance things out and give us something to compensate for the fact that light classes have 5000 less morale and 70% less mitigation.

Its pointless to try to convince people to take another perspective on things, i agree that minis are not OP, i don't see minis with 9k+ morale running around with a huge sword/hammer/axe with heavy armour critting for 7k+ while getting a massive heal with bubbles. To those who do not understand, or fail to try, if you cut through their healing minis are pretty weak. Look from freepside and not creepside where everything is OP to them because the dev's did not give as much love with RoI. Our defence is healing, ask a friend mini to spar you with no heals at all and see what happens, personally i lasted all 5 seconds against a rank 7 or 8 reaver

*edit* OH and Latheras a healing mini in any group is more dangerous then any dps mini could be

It's true that all the classes have a power return of some kind. The difference is that the Minstrel's can be used over and over, very frequently.

So the cappy can power return from shield brother skill that can be refreshed pretty much when the PoT finishes, as well as the chance to return power on defensive stike if blade of elindil buff is up. Or the loremaster trait that has a chance to restore power on each skill used, or the hunter trait that returns power on each successful hit. Rk can return power on prelude to hope. If it didn't change recently, the champ can get a power resore on enemy defeat. Warden can use a gambit to get PoT any time now, so morale surfing isn't necessary. Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing that it is a powerful skill. I just want to point out that the ability to use a power return frequently isn't limited to just the minni.
I am just glad we have something. I was relieved when they changed the bubble so it doesn't drain power, even happier when I found out it gives power back too.
I feel like that was a rant, sorry just trying to give background so perception of the class doesn't get skewed.

And back on the rails... To the OP. pretty much all of the solo content is a walk in the park. You can do a lot of the small group content as well. If you are feeling gutsy you can try the fellowship content solo as well. When you reach end game, there is lots of stuff to challenge you in different ways. Try PvMP. There are lots of raids to do. If you feel the minni is too EZ mode there are a lot of other classes to try I have known a few people who leveled up a minni and then abandoned it to get more of a challenge.

Either way, I hope you enjoy the class!

-E

Minis have high burst damage, but can't even touch other classes as far as sustainable DPS output, also landscape is designed to be soloed (for the most part.) As far later/end game content, a DPS mini is not a viable playstyle. Also no matter what level the player is, gear (and buffs) make a big difference. If you are running around with top at level gear, you will have a much easier time than dealing with quest gear.

This:

is a lot easier to play, and harder to fight than

This:

(Also as a side note DPS minis in the moors aren't that great for non solo play, not using the healing potential of the class is just bad, 2k HPS is much better for the Fraid than another self healing glass cannon)

Originally Posted by Denno

Minis have high burst damage, but can't even touch other classes as far as sustainable DPS output, also landscape is designed to be soloed (for the most part.) As far later/end game content, a DPS mini is not a viable playstyle. Also no matter what level the player is, gear (and buffs) make a big difference. If you are running around with top at level gear, you will have a much easier time than dealing with quest gear.

This:

is a lot easier to play, and harder to fight than

This:

(Also as a side note DPS minis in the moors aren't that great for non solo play, not using the healing potential of the class is just bad, 2k HPS is much better for the Fraid than another self healing glass cannon)

Omg... Is that first one unbuffed? I may have to quit now...

I have a few minnie acquaintances in the end game in trouble because they blew thru the solo content.

Many of their virtues are L-6! And legacies are tier 1, 2...

If you expect to be effective at L75 you'd best get the right legacies Tier 6, the right virtues for your style at 14...
Just because you're a great soloer at L70 doesn't make you anything but a bug on the windshield when you get into the really tough stuff end game.

Jammer

Originally Posted by N8R8R

Omg... Is that first one unbuffed? I may have to quit now...

Oh, no, that was in a T2CM raid fully buffed, unbuffed Amlios is around 7.6k Morale/9.7k Power

Originally Posted by N8R8R

So the cappy can power return from shield brother skill that can be refreshed pretty much when the PoT finishes, as well as the chance to return power on defensive stike if blade of elindil buff is up. Or the loremaster trait that has a chance to restore power on each skill used, or the hunter trait that returns power on each successful hit. Rk can return power on prelude to hope. If it didn't change recently, the champ can get a power resore on enemy defeat. Warden can use a gambit to get PoT any time now, so morale surfing isn't necessary. Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing that it is a powerful skill. I just want to point out that the ability to use a power return frequently isn't limited to just the minni.
I am just glad we have something. I was relieved when they changed the bubble so it doesn't drain power, even happier when I found out it gives power back too.
I feel like that was a rant, sorry just trying to give background so perception of the class doesn't get skewed.

And back on the rails... To the OP. pretty much all of the solo content is a walk in the park. You can do a lot of the small group content as well. If you are feeling gutsy you can try the fellowship content solo as well. When you reach end game, there is lots of stuff to challenge you in different ways. Try PvMP. There are lots of raids to do. If you feel the minni is too EZ mode there are a lot of other classes to try I have known a few people who leveled up a minni and then abandoned it to get more of a challenge.

Either way, I hope you enjoy the class!

-E

The point is, for a Minstrel, Power=Life. As long as he has power he can keep healing, so if the enemy can't overcome the healing, he can't beat the Minstrel. A Guardian or Captain or pretty much anyone else can't maintain his health directly with additional power, so it means they CAN be worn down. A Minstrel cannot be.

Originally Posted by AtzumoKayami

fact that light classes have 5000 less morale and 70% less mitigation.

Not even remotely true at all. We're discussing DPS minstrels, so you need to compare to a DPS heavy (champ):

Most good champs sit around 7k morale and ~55% mitigation
- This means champs have roughly the same or 150-300 more morale than you and 25% more mitigation. I've played with one of the best minstrels in NA also and he actually runs with 8k morale with capped 30% mits, so I'm being very lenient for the average minstrel in this case. There is no heavy running around with 100% mitigations, and it's very easy for minstrels to cap out at 30%, as it is for all light armors.

Your 'fact' is not a fact at all. Reply when you take your blinders off.

Originally Posted by DreagonMK

Not even remotely true at all. We're discussing DPS minstrels, so you need to compare to a DPS heavy (champ):

Most good champs sit around 7k morale and ~55% mitigation
- This means champs have roughly the same or 150-300 more morale than you and 25% more mitigation. I've played with one of the best minstrels in NA also and he actually runs with 8k morale with capped 30% mits, so I'm being very lenient for the average minstrel in this case. There is no heavy running around with 100% mitigations, and it's very easy for minstrels to cap out at 30%, as it is for all light armors.

Your 'fact' is not a fact at all. Reply when you take your blinders off.

I was referring to guardians, not champs in that last sentence, sorry if I touched a sore spot (which I apparently did. Also, when did I state that my claim was a solid fact?).
My point was, champs have better DPS than minis (for what I have observed, I don't have a champ but you don't see minis as DPS in 6 or 12 man content) and that guards have better survivability (minis don't run around with 13K morale unbuffed and with 70% mitigation).
BTW, the difference in mitigation between a medium armor class (50% capped) and a heavy one (70% capped) is of 66%, one of the reason that wardens had problems tanking in the past, so you can see that difference in capped mitigation in light classes is a LOT. Last but not least, isn't the cap 40% and not 30%? Can't remember right now, but the wiki seems to believe it's 40%

Originally Posted by AtzumoKayami

BTW, the difference in mitigation between a medium armor class (50% capped) and a heavy one (70% capped) is of 66%, one of the reason that wardens had problems tanking in the past, so you can see that difference in capped mitigation in light classes is a LOT. Last but not least, isn't the cap 40% and not 30%? Can't remember right now, but the wiki seems to believe it's 40%

Correct on both accounts.

So if we change the input and have a champ at 55% like Dreagon says, and a mini at 40%, that's [(1-.40)-(1-.55)]/(1-.55)=33.3% more damage a mit capped mini takes vs a 55% mit champ. Discounting block and stuff.

Of course it is challenging to play a minstrel. If things are too easy just raise the bar.
I love trying to solo old group content (and even new group content) just to see how far I can go.

As for groupplay, when I am not the main-healer, I consider myself a jack of all trades, master of none; doing adequate damage, providing 2 light groupheals over time, providing one or two minor buffs, some minor crowd-control and if things go bad drop warspeech and throw one of the big cooldown heals to relieve the healer.
You are in no way overpowered, everyone else will be better at their role then you, but you can make things go smoother overall. As good as your dps might be the only role you can rightfully claim as main stays healer.

In the moors, as someone stated before, warspeech during solo is great. But as soon as I team up warspeech will be dropped, because a healing minstrel is worth ten times as much as a fighting one in a group.

In short, minstrel is only boring if you allow it to be.

The game used to be challenging at lower levels. Now if you want any challenge, do quests early. It's not just mini. It's pretty much every class.

At end game with instances and raids, it does get tougher, but I don't think any content is hard on level till 75.

Lotro is geared towards casuals, so I don't think it's a terrible thing. You just have to make the game harder to suit you. I often miss the way the game used to be when I'm leveling alts, but I've seen content that was face roll easy be difficult for someone else. I guess this way, the game is more open to more people.

Miny = chuck norris.