Thread: Major Concerns About Mounted Combat Based On Information And LiveStream

****PLEASE NOTE THIS ALL BASED ON PUBLIC INFORMATION*****

Between the website reviews from Ten Ton Hammer and Massively coupled with the official information Turbine has already given us and the livestream that happened last night some major concerns have come to mind about Mounted Combat.

There are a number major things. We already know that our Mount Traiting will greatly define our play in Mounted Combat but what about our Character Traiting? For LMs there are a number of character traiting setups that if they affect mounted combat would greatly hinder our characters and require us to retrait. An example is if you are traited Keeper of Animals and focus on the pet side of the line, this puts most of our power into our pets which we don't have for mounted combat. Another example is the deeper you are traited into Master of Nature's Fury the shorter duration our Blinding Flash/Mez is in duration. Similarly the instant casting ability of Blinding Flash is a trait in the Ancient Master side.... So will our Character Traiting affect our Mounted Combat skills power and duration. Then there is the lore affect trait that increases how many targets can be hit by the different lore skills for debuffing and rooting. This is important for all classes. These questions are most important for the classes that aspects of their game play that aren't included in Mounted Combat so Burglars, Lore-masters, Captains and even Hunters for their Rain of Thorns.

Are there Fellowship Maneuvers while in Mounted Combat? If so how does that affect our traveling, fury buildup, etc? If not and our Character Traiting affects our Mounted Combat skills then Burgs will be retraiting for Mounted Combat as well.

Another major issue is do our existing two Legendary Items legacies affect our Mounted Combat skills? Examples would be the Fire and Burning Embers related legacies, do these effect the Enduring Embers skill that we know exists?

Another Very Imporant Issue for HEALING. From what we could see from the livestream the other night at MMORPG.COM you aren't able to see the health of the war steeds in your group. The main Mounted Combat section of the Rohan site stated that healers skills will affect horse and rider. So for healers how are we supposed to know who in the group is in most need of healing steed wise?

How is Crowd Control going to work with Mounted Combat? Will we be Rooting, Stunning, Mezzing or Slowing the Riders and/or Mounts of our opponents? Will our Character Traits be affecting these?

Will our Armour Set Bonuses affect our Mounted Combat Skills?

Good reasoned questions. I hope we'll get answers.

Or Turbine invite this guy to beta

Good questions overall....

For the first question about character traits being affected due to mounted combat, I dont think that should be.....we have enough variety in traits to choose from to avoid using those traits which would be obsolete during mounted combat.....I mean mounted combat is not gonna be 100 percent of the time.....and KoA (unmounted) would be as it is....for unmounted....we would just choose other traits that would complement the mounted combat technique and playstyle.....so we can choose healing traits from KoA, choose any AM or MonF traits while mounted combat and just avoid pet related ones which wont be any use unless they give us a pet for mounted combat....


CC and debuffs I hope would be affected the same way as healing is gonna be affected....increased range....so they should work just as they do now....


How CJs will work in mounted combat is an interesting question (if at all theyre there in it)...I'm curious about that too....

Apparently, Burning Embers is "converted" to Enduring Embers...so its very likely all traits, legacies, armor set bonuses, etc affecting its duration, damage, pulses, range etc would also affect it in the same way as they do now.....

Just my thoughts

Thanks for the feedback and your thoughts so far on the issues that came into my mind about what could be problems.

Here is the thing there are people who swear bye, love and only want to use specific traitlines on their characters. Now if things follow the course they have before where everything builds on everything else then some of these traitlines will be obsolete when in mounted combat and would actually weaken you since the things affected by those traits aren't a part of mounted combat. So IF our character traits affect our abilities in Mounted Combat then people are going to be forced to either be playing their characters weakened or be forced to retrait just for Mounted Combat. Yes this entire question could be a moot issue if Character traits don't affect Mounted Combat but its an issue that should be looked into by the devs and those in beta so we can either get some feedback now from the devs or from the beta testers once NDA is dropped. I used LMs as the main case in question before simply because they are a class I'm very familiar with and know the game play styles of people could be greatly affected by this issue.

But hey this thread is just about sharing any concerns that popup in our heads regarding mounted combat based on the reviews we've read and the beta livestream that we watched the other night. Please keep sharing your thoughts.

Apparently now you can magically cast spells while moving, yet when we are on our feet you can't. Nothing makes any sense in this "expansion".

Then there are the horses that bite for a skill... yeah right. Next horses will carry their own swords and stand upright to fight in their girly outfits.

If I had known the game would become this way way back when I signed up for my lifetime account, I never would have bought it. I had originally planned on using the money for Everquest at the time, and only chose LOTRO due to the lifetime offer to save money.

Originally Posted by Cabbus

Apparently now you can magically cast spells while moving, yet when we are on our feet you can't. Nothing makes any sense in this "expansion".

Then there are the horses that bite for a skill... yeah right. Next horses will carry their own swords and stand upright to fight in their girly outfits.

If I had known the game would become this way way back when I signed up for my lifetime account, I never would have bought it. I had originally planned on using the money for Everquest at the time, and only chose LOTRO due to the lifetime offer to save money.

Nothing makes any sense in your post either.

You CAN cast some spells while moving, but not all. It makes perfect sense to be able to cast others while mounted but not moving on foot. See shooting arrows on horseback versus moving on foot for a parallel example.

And, er, what? How is biting the enemy anything like carrying a sword? Horses have teeth y'know. O_o
Also, if you choose to make your horse's outfit look 'girly', then that is your problem, not the game's for giving you the option.

Originally Posted by Cabbus

Apparently now you can magically cast spells while moving, yet when we are on our feet you can't. Nothing makes any sense in this "expansion".

Then there are the horses that bite for a skill... yeah right. Next horses will carry their own swords and stand upright to fight in their girly outfits.

If I had known the game would become this way way back when I signed up for my lifetime account, I never would have bought it. I had originally planned on using the money for Everquest at the time, and only chose LOTRO due to the lifetime offer to save money.

When youre unmounted, youre moving yourself....hence its difficult to cast.....while mounted, the horse is doing the movement...youre only riding it and hence can concentrate enough to cast....difference between not being able to do something while running but being able to do it while driving a car.....

So if you take a lil step back and think, things do make sense....but hey if you wanna have a prejudice against the game and justify it with these things, nothing will indeed make sense....


Also, discussing mechanics and how they will work will be a far fruitful a discussion than discussing personal tastes about the things added to the game

Ok seriously lets avoid the why can you cast, play music, shoot arrows etc while moving griping. This about legitimate concerns regarding the way play styles as we know them will be affected by Mounted Combat. So our Character Traiting, our LI legacies, our gear bonuses, FMs, Group Healing, CC, etc....

On the Group Healing aspect as it stands when we are not mounted and people have their pets/heralds out we have the nice little status bar next to their own status bar while grouped that lets us see the health and power of the pets/heralds. This would be really nice to have adapted to be for War-Steeds as well change the icon from paws etc to a horse head and that major issue will be handled for the moment at least until you decide pets/heralds get to play along in mounted combat as well.

I suggest we wait for more info about mounted combat. Surely, the previews that Massively and TTH got, along with the MMORPG livestream aren't going to be the only sources of info on MC? Give it time, and we'll know more.

I personally think that our own traitlines don't affect MC, seeing as MC replaces all our old skills with new ones.

Originally Posted by LeppardUK

I personally think that our own traitlines don't affect MC, seeing as MC replaces all our old skills with new ones.

I agree that we need more information to draw any conclusion, and even the few tidbits of information we get could not reflect the final release (horse moral bars could appear, or simply be an option which was turned off for the live stream). But the quote above is a major concern for me. I am afraid that mounted combat is nothing but an ersatz of what we currently play, with a smaller subset of skills and less class differentiation. I could be wrong, as I am not in the beta program, but I remember all the outrage each time a class was substantially reworked, and it looks like all the classes are being reworked with mounted combat skills.

Will we get more info as we come closer to launch thats obviously a yes. Will there be more previews yeah there will they even released another site doing a preview of MC just an hour or so ago.

The thing is every single preview I've seen so far has them playing or talking a bout playing Hunters, Guardians, Champions and one showed a little bit about a Captain. With the exception of the Captain these are classes that for the most part have a very obvious transition on how they will and could be applied to Mounted Combat, without much if any of their classes cornerstones being affected.

Will our Character Traits, existing LI legacies, armor bonuses etc affect MC is an important question since it would greatly affect how effective our characters are at fighting in MC if they are.

Should we wait to be asking about these issues? I honestly think we should air our concerns especially since we were able to get an actual glimpse of beta ourselves thanks to Rowan and MMORPG.COM. The game is in beta now so those who are in beta as well as the devs hopefully watch this forum and take note of our concerns to raise and test them out themselves in beta so that come September's release it will all be moot issues as they will have been handled before release.

Originally Posted by PKCrichton

Should we wait to be asking about these issues? I honestly think we should air our concerns especially since we were able to get an actual glimpse of beta ourselves thanks to Rowan and MMORPG.COM. The game is in beta now so those who are in beta as well as the devs hopefully watch this forum and take note of our concerns to raise and test them out themselves in beta so that come September's release it will all be moot issues as they will have been handled before release.

I can certainly understand and appreciate your concerns, but please keep in mind that what you are seeing to date are snippets and only pieces of information. We use specific classes in press tests and demos because they tend to be the most played classes, especially among the press. So they are playing with classes they are familiar with and can thus give a better impression of how their classes translate to mounted combat.

Your concerns are based on not having full knowledge of the system, which is entirely to be expected. But you should also realize that beta comprises players that play every class and often multiple classes and we have never had a beta where players were reserved in expressing their displeasure, dislike, or other opinions of things they encounter while testing. So I can assure you if something was horribly amiss, we'd be hearing about it.

While I can't share details of beta what I can say, in the hopes of allaying some of your concerns, is that I haven't come across any feedback so far that is negative regarding mounted combat. In fact, most seem to have shared many of your concerns and are very happy that the actual system performs better than they expected across all classes. it's almost the very first comment people make.

I can also share that some players who are self confessed turbine critics are making very positive statements regarding the Riders of Rohan expansion so far.

Obviously you can take my words for whatever you feel they are worth, but I hope this put at least some of your concerns to rest.

We're considering asking players to write brief 'beta diaries' for us so that we can share them (anonymously) with the full community so you can see real comments from the beta and what players are saying to us.

Firstly Thanks for the response Sapience. Its great to hear that once the learning curve has been breached people have been enjoying Mounted Combat.

I totally understand that our questions arise from our very limited 2nd hand and birds eye view exposure to the system so far and totally understand that those classes people have viewed are among the popular classes of the game so of course they get some of the first expose heck we've only been getting real info on MC for only a week now .

Personally I meant this only as major questions that have arisen for me after having read the articles, taken part in the livestream and having rewatched the livestream then thinking about the gameplay based on those observations. I simply wanted to raise these issues for those who do have access to look into see if they are issues or not and have it addressed if it actually is an issue that people haven't considered yet.

Again thanks for the response!

Originally Posted by Sapience

We're considering asking players to write brief 'beta diaries' for us so that we can share them (anonymously) with the full community so you can see real comments from the beta and what players are saying to us.

I'd like to see this happen.

Beta Diaries would be really cool to see either before or after NDA was up. I know back with Mirkwood I wrote up a long list of information from the beta for my kin and its allies to learn about with all the changes that happened back then that people found helpful. So public diaries for all to see would be awesome!

Originally Posted by asearchforreason

I'd like to see this happen.

Me too. this would be an outstanding idea.

Originally Posted by Wanderv

Good reasoned questions. I hope we'll get answers.

Or Turbine invite this guy to beta

Agree. Good questions all. Ambivalent about player diaries because they would be hand-picked for public release. Hasn't Turbine does this before in a beta? If not, then I must be thinking of another MMO. I know I've seen that before.

Actually, if you watch the chat of the live stream, there is a beta tester who claims to have ridden larger horses, critical of the way the mounts move/feel in motion.

They appear to move like rear wheel drive cars on a dirt track, not like horses with four hooves.

As for the issues the OP brought up, Turbine's webpage providing sample mount skills provides examples of CC.

The concept that there'll be a legendary items for mounts points toward different legacies related to mount skills, which also speaks to existing traits being more for regular combat.

I haven't heard anyone happy about half the quests being mount related. In fact, the discussion I just had on Google+ was groans about that. Hopefully there'll be enough XP for folks to level who don't want to ride so much.

All that being said, it still looks better than I was anticipating, and my expectations were high. I'm looking forward to September. I was impressed at their implementation of different gaits and tying in speed to Fury. The multiple trait lines provides customization for those who prefer more damage, support, or other roles, which is fabulous.

But I would think of it more as a game within the game, not try to think of it as adapting the standard combat style to mounts. So don't consider standard traits, don't consider standard legacies, until such time as we learn they are involved in this subset of the game.

(Aaron Campbell said you hit S to suddenly stop, so one would presume you'd hit that to join an FM. But we can't currently from horseback, so you never know, some things will change come mounted combat, others won't.)



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

Have a separate set of class traits (all traits?) which come into effect while mounted. Apparently none of the normal skills are available while mounted anyway, from the little I've seen in the video with Aaron.

I have some major concerns as well, involving the Captain class. Where will my herald/archer go for solo mounted play? Assuming he/she won't be summoned, who will our 'x-brother' target be? Our warsteed? If so, would we be able to equip our banner, since we theoretically won't have our traditional pet around? Would we be able to plant it on the ground as usual, and just resume solo play with our horse as our new 'pet substitute'?

I'm holding off on getting the pre-order, as I have many more questions/concerns this time around. We will be FORCED to play mounted combat, which is a feature I don't necessarily care much for. I'll have to reserve final judgement until the expansion is actually released, but until then, I really hope this game doesn't lose touch with what has been making it my number one MMORPG for the past two years.

As things stand now Heralds and Pets are not a part of mounted combat. I will assume they will go into their limbo state like they do with non mounted combat when we are on our war-steeds. As for your x-brother and banners that completely depends on how captains skills have been implemented with mounted combat.... only the devs and beta testers would know for sure.

I would like to note something about the horse skills.

Mounted combat historically is not just climbing on a horse and riding around in circles whacking your opponent with a sword or other weapon. Cavalry horses were highly trained. Many maneuvers still performed today by, for example, the Spanish Riding School in Vienna or the Cadre Noir in Saumur come from combat maneuvers used by cavalry horses. I would even go so far to say that the entire equestrian sport that we know today has its root in the cavalry of various countries (which, historically, is pretty obvious.)

A cavalry horse was trained to perform in combat as a combatant under the rider's control. It wouldn't be of much use if that wasn't the case. For example both a croupade or a capriole have their roots in the rider moving his trained horse to give him some breathing space against enemy cavalry or infantry, even doing damage to enemy troops and horses.

A horse based culture like the people of Rohan would know how to perform such things too. They are, by definition, a very mobile and highly trained light cavalry force. They are not shock forces like, for example, the Knights of Dol Amroth. Armored knights on horseback are shock troops charging at enemy lines and breaking them to dust with their sheer momentum and heavy weight (which is why armored cavalry was a feared force on the battlefields of medieval Europe.) The Rohirrim would be skirmishers, harassing enemy units, maybe getting into a melee every now and then, doing raids, masters of hit and run, etc. They should be able to perform a decent charge, too, similar to lancers in the end days of the cavalry. That requires well trained, fast, very mobile horses (mobility again based on training, you can't do a quick turn on the hind legs without training) and just as well trained riders.

Now all of that history aside, even today horses are trained. A horse just doesn't become a successful international S-class jumper or dressage performer over night. There are years of training in it. Some horses make that cut, others don't, just like the riders. And a rider is only as good as his horse.

So that the horses in RoR will have skills makes a whole lot of sense.

from what i have seen it looks like MC is the new nascar race. all i saw was people riding in circles, made me dizzy watching.is this all we have to look forward to with MC? I will be getting this (expan) when it comes on sale in the turbine store,definitely in no hurry to get it.

This completely cracked me up, Sapience:

we have never had a beta where players were reserved in expressing their displeasure, dislike, or other opinions of things they encounter while testing. So I can assure you if something was horribly amiss, we'd be hearing about it.

What a surprise. The players in general are so meek and reserved in expressing their displeasure, dislike, or other opinions...

Originally Posted by Silverangel

Agree. Good questions all. Ambivalent about player diaries because they would be hand-picked for public release. Hasn't Turbine does this before in a beta? If not, then I must be thinking of another MMO. I know I've seen that before.

Yes they have, I think it was with Mirkwood. They would release bits of information written by the beta testers to the general public. It was a very neat idea, but what kept it VERY reserved was the 'hand picking'. It was what people said directly, but didn't give away anything that Turbine wasn't ready to have out to the masses.

I say do it again!

Originally Posted by Sapience

We're considering asking players to write brief 'beta diaries' for us so that we can share them (anonymously) with the full community so you can see real comments from the beta and what players are saying to us.

Great idea Sapience!

Originally Posted by Takekaze

Armored knights on horseback are shock troops charging at enemy lines and breaking them to dust with their sheer momentum and heavy weight (which is why armored cavalry was a feared force on the battlefields of medieval Europe.)

Well... Up until the advent of the phalanx of Swiss pike, anyway...

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by Sapience

Your concerns are based on not having full knowledge of the system, which is entirely to be expected. But you should also realize that beta comprises players that play every class and often multiple classes and we have never had a beta where players were reserved in expressing their displeasure, dislike, or other opinions of things they encounter while testing. So I can assure you if something was horribly amiss, we'd be hearing about it.

This is very true, and in past betas it's actually lead to changes being made before final release. Certainly players on these forums are far from shy about voicing displeasure over faults in the game (real or imagined). But to be fair, I'm reminded of a certain patch note from U5:

The two hostile mobs in Lower Barnavon that were put there due to overwhelming player feedback have been removed due to overwhelming player feedback.

It'll be interesting to see how that compares this time.

Originally Posted by Sapience

snip...
I can also share that some players who are self confessed turbine critics are making very positive statements regarding the Riders of Rohan expansion so far.
snip...

You can't get any more critical than me - I cancelled my sub shortly after Isengard (and was pretty vocal about how unhappy I was about the game before I left) - but I've just pre-ordered RoR based on what I've seen so far (though largely influenced by the latest Dev Diary). And I'm not even in Beta.

Is it an offence to talk about Beta if you're not in it? I suppose if all the people who aren't in Beta declare the fact, we'd technically be guilty of naming those who are - assuming they all stayed quiet?

Having said that, you can't get any more NDA-breaking re: participation than the MMORPG stream I guess.

Originally Posted by PKCrichton

****PLEASE NOTE THIS ALL BASED ON PUBLIC INFORMATION*****

Between the website reviews from Ten Ton Hammer and Massively coupled with the official information Turbine has already given us and the livestream that happened last night some major concerns have come to mind about Mounted Combat.

There are a number major things. We already know that our Mount Traiting will greatly define our play in Mounted Combat but what about our Character Traiting? For LMs there are a number of character traiting setups that if they affect mounted combat would greatly hinder our characters and require us to retrait. An example is if you are traited Keeper of Animals and focus on the pet side of the line, this puts most of our power into our pets which we don't have for mounted combat. Another example is the deeper you are traited into Master of Nature's Fury the shorter duration our Blinding Flash/Mez is in duration. Similarly the instant casting ability of Blinding Flash is a trait in the Ancient Master side.... So will our Character Traiting affect our Mounted Combat skills power and duration. Then there is the lore affect trait that increases how many targets can be hit by the different lore skills for debuffing and rooting. This is important for all classes. These questions are most important for the classes that aspects of their game play that aren't included in Mounted Combat so Burglars, Lore-masters, Captains and even Hunters for their Rain of Thorns.

Are there Fellowship Maneuvers while in Mounted Combat? If so how does that affect our traveling, fury buildup, etc? If not and our Character Traiting affects our Mounted Combat skills then Burgs will be retraiting for Mounted Combat as well.

Another major issue is do our existing two Legendary Items legacies affect our Mounted Combat skills? Examples would be the Fire and Burning Embers related legacies, do these effect the Enduring Embers skill that we know exists?

Another Very Imporant Issue for HEALING. From what we could see from the livestream the other night at MMORPG.COM you aren't able to see the health of the war steeds in your group. The main Mounted Combat section of the Rohan site stated that healers skills will affect horse and rider. So for healers how are we supposed to know who in the group is in most need of healing steed wise?

How is Crowd Control going to work with Mounted Combat? Will we be Rooting, Stunning, Mezzing or Slowing the Riders and/or Mounts of our opponents? Will our Character Traits be affecting these?

Will our Armour Set Bonuses affect our Mounted Combat Skills?

This has probably been addressed elsewhere, but none of your LM skills are available during mounted combat, and I doubt how you're traited has any affect on anything.

You get a mounted version of burning embers, a mounted version of light of the rising dawn which has a heal on it, a mounted version of stun and some debuffs. You're basically a level 5 mounted LM, so unfortunately don't look for any of your level 75 abilities; they don't exist in mounted combat.

Mounted combat is essentially a different system. You will feel a bit like your character but will be unable to use most of the normal skills. For mounted enemies you can fight on foot of course, but all of the mezzes will slow the enemy instead or possibly dismount them.

I really don't know if class traits will make a difference.

The bonuses you get from your trait will have an influence, less your traits. You have 3 stances and most of your MC skills change with it.

Example Bond of the Rider
Red stance (Red dawn)
700-1000 light damage
1250 moral healing for you
1250 endurance healing for your horse

when you unlock the bonus for attack from behind
210 belerian damage initial
210 belerian damage every 3 seconds for 12 seconds

on crit
310 belerian damage initial
310 belerian damage every 3 seconds fpr 12 seconds
-500 armour for 15 seconds

Blue stance (Rohirrim)
600-900 light damage
for the fellowship within 40m
2500 moral healing
2500 endurance healing for the horses

when you unlock the bonus for attack from behind
210 belerian damage initial
210 belerian damage every 3 seconds for 12 seconds

Yellow stance (Riddermark)
600-900 light damage
for the fellowship within 40m
360 power
360 power for the horses

when you unlock the bonus for attack from behind
210 belerian damage initial
210 belerian damage every 3 seconds for 12 seconds

With MC you unlock new skills in a limited number (think six or seven) and you earn others over the horse traits. Some of the later are passive like "Shields will be splintered" (apply a DoT).

And to the medieval knights cavalry: Peasants were not used to put organized resistance up. On a battlefield not usable for horses and organized resistance it changed. See Agincourt or Crecy and later ofc the swiss pikes. Riding around was a tactic used by the Mongolian riders of Genghis Kahn and of the Muslim light cavalry in the crusades. And they defeat the European knights.

I assume that slotting such traits as "Flame of Anor" (+10% fire damage) or "Healer" (+10% healing et al.) will affect the mounted combat skills, as well as such actions a traiting deep red, which gives large bonuses to fire and tactical damage in general, not just bonuses to specific skills?

It seems to have some impact. I check the damage with 5 red traits and without, the difference was about 10%. But it should be more for fire from the traits I choose.

Your class traiting I've been told is NOT supposed to affect your Mounted Combat Class Skills at all. The current fact that LMs traited 4 or deeper in Master of Nature's Fury are getting a damage increase is from the +Tact in the trait bonuses and Turbine is looking into fixing this and other similar issues. So to be clear all the +Fire, +Lightning, +Healing, +Damage, -Power Cost etc class traits that each class has is not supposed to affect our mounted skills at all. If you are seeing this bug it but since its build 5 turbine already knows about the issues.