Thread: Landroval PvMP and the new Ettenmoor Changes

For those who have not had a chance to read the new Dev Diary:

http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdia...the-ettenmoors

I figured we could have a civilized discussion about the changes and what this means for Landroval PvMP specifically.

Haven't read a lot yet, but

• Each Keep your side controls provides everyone on your side an Ettenmoors wide, stacking, Infamy/Commendation earn buff (+20% boost per Keep).

• For Creeps, ranks 2 through 6 of Audacity cost a total of 1125 Commendations (all Creeps start off with rank 1). Ranks 7 through 14 cost 6000 Commendations each.
  

Yuck.

Scanned through it. Ill read it carefully tonight. But, at a galce this looks to be one hell of an update to PVP.

With all the changes to OP's and Keeps it will be very interesting to see how fights change.

The waypoints sound pretty cool but, Id liek to hear more on them.

A bridge that spans from CM clear to Isen?? (Nevermind Isen OP)

**Reserves space to write more when I get a chance to read it again.**

Massive changes. I think most of them are positive, especially the creep changes, but I'm not a big fan of the keep/outpost/delving/relic boosts. Maybe it will work, but it looks to me like more pve incoming. Level the keeps and outposts, and I would be happy.

I do like the new positioning of EC and OC. Seems more aggressive to me.

Originally Posted by Samau

I figured we could have a civilized discussion about the changes and what this means for Landroval PvMP specifically.

Good luck with that, Hal.

i would like to see them put more in to how u take the keep and whats defending it other than npcs and creeps/freeps.......i have yet to play but from videos i really liking the keep fights of GW2 and how u can break down walls to get in anything like that i think would change the fighting around and based in the keeps ......but i am liking alot of the changes they are making so far

Not a fan of the 3min sprint and disappear timers, either. The rest of the changes seem interesting.

I like the changes. Looks good, will hopefully change the way some play. A lot less comms for pve and more for pvp. Delving might get a bit more use 40% comms bonus makes it worth it.

As for what it means for Landy, here are some guesses.

- Less use of EC by freeps, especially when Lugz is red. Creeps will be able to map near to OC, so it might still get heavy use.
- Same amount of raids but less RvR, as the raids will be flipping pve objectives for boosts. Much less open field RvR than the pittance there already is.
- More people ranking up greenie creeps. Sure, max audacity costs 5,625 more, but the skill and trait price reductions more than make up for that. (Correction: Max audacity will either cost 11,625 more if the dev diary stated the amounts correctly and Aud 7 costs 6k, or 6,750 more if Aud 7 costs the same as 2-6.)
- Freeps will finally get to fight trolls again, and it will be fun. - We will continue to see freeps who really don't care much about pvp, but are out to earn commendations because the armour sets still have some of the best bonuses.
- Fewer people flipping keeps, but people still flipping to take advantage of the pve boosts.

Great changes overall,

And I like that the developers have acknowledge what a lot of people have been saying for a long time

"...One thing that’s become very apparent to us in our survey of the ‘moors is the disparity in damage and healing between Creeps and Freeps. Pound for pound, Creeps tend to get outgunned and outhealed compared to the kind of numbers Freeps can put out. We will be taking steps to bridge this gap this season..."

Hopefully this will make the moors a more competitive area and will improve the quality of gameplay experience.

It seems some very positive changes imho. However I will reserve final judgement until release.

btw, that diary seemed to be incomplete at the end. At least that's the feeling I got from reading it.

seems like creeps getting huge upgrade, hopefully this update will make pvp better in general, but it feels like good 1v1s will become rare.

My initial analysis suggests that the upcoming changes will dramatically alter moors play style. In order to obtain commendations/infamy one will have to kill the enemy. Comm/inf is no longer awarded for flipping keeps, taking outposts or for many of the p. v. e. quests.

There will be a stacking buff of ~10% physical/tactical mastery for every outpost controlled by a side. With the new count of 4 outposts that is a ~40% buff if all outposts are controlled. Next, for each keep controlled there is a stacking ~20% comm/inf buff for the controlling side. That can total ~60% for the traditional 3 stone keeps and 100% when including LC and ID. Third, losing control of your relics results, in effect, in a -2 Audacity penalty, using present Audacity gear rating. More specifically, on this issue the Dev writes "Owning your relic provides your side an Ettenmoors wide Audacity boost equivalent to a piece of gear." Fourth, the Delving becomes much more important than it has been, at least for the last year.

Some of the changes I foresee are

1. The day of the solo’er, though not necessarily gone, is on the wane. Solo’ers, even a bunch of solo’ers, will be at a disadvantage when up against a well-organized raid working with several smaller raids who work to take and hold outposts and keeps.
2. Players who want to have the chance of obtaining 100% more comm/inf will have to become much more organized and play more frequently in large raids and/or in smaller multi-raids that work together.
3. A player will be a more powerful player if his or her side controls the outposts and their relics. Thus it would be smart to take and hold outposts and prevent the opposite side from taking your relics.
4. It will be easier to take keeps if your side controls all the outposts. So get and hold the outposts first.

Disclaimer: The above is just my preliminary thoughts. There is a lot more in the dev notes related to the Delving, EC, OC, and Keep structure which will have both tactical and strategic impact.

My request for Defiler Junk Strike skill has again been overlooked. THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES! :P

I like most changes i see but im not sure if i like them because they are good ideas or that its just something different...

My only gripe i have is pveing now is really just for the comms and maybe gaining a rez circle..to me the pve in this revamped moors seems to have higher rewards then it does now. I can only hope that this doesnt diminish what true pvp is left in the moors.

The thought of grinding another 7 levels for audacity and 14 for any new toons doesnt sit well with me though

The changes don't look very good to me in terms of varying playstyles. Once again, Turbine is encouraging people to zerg up and PvE. It's good for people who don't actually want to fight other players...

It didn't convince me to buy RoR that's for sure.

Some interesting changes, seems that open field battles will disappear and everything will become either a keep/outpost take or defend. Also, the days of full raids look to be ending, more people will need to be spread out to take or defend, that could really help the gameplay compared to zergfest it is now. Actually like the ideas in theory, now it's just the implementation that will be key.

Side note - seems they are thinking GW2 here a little, where having a giant zerg ball doesn't get you anything, where breaking off into smaller teams will help the overall fight. I actually like that idea - more and better fights are possible.

seems like the idea is to hopefully mix teh pvp with pve, by having control points that are actually worth fighting to take/protect. I have found this kind of pvp a lot of fun in other games, aka WAR and DAoC. Although it does mean the end for 1v1s, which is sad. Will definitely be interested to play the changes and see how they do.

The correct stacking buff for control of Keeps results is a total of 100% more comm/inf. In my previous post I did not consider LC and ID as a Keep but they are. It is also possible to gain a similar 100% comm/inf buff by killing the Hurorn (30%), Drake (30%) and Rogmul (40%) in the Delving. Likewise, there will be four outposts not 5 thus the tac/mastery buff will max out at ~40% not ~50%. (I have corrected the earlier post. Thanks to the person who caught my errors.)

Some other interesting points. The position of EC has been moved to where the LUG rez circle presently resides and the position of OC has been moved to where the TR rez circle resides. EC and OC, as well as the Outposts will have permanent connection to the Delving, as will OR and DG. The Keeps will not. Thus it will be possible to reinforce EC and OC as well as Outposts your side controls via the Delving via another Outpost your side control or via either OR (if a freep) or DG (if a creep). Apparently it will also be possible to attack these posts from two directions at once if one has enough players to do so.

Next each stone Keep (TA, TR, LUG) will have a back entrance that connects directly to the flag room which only the side who controls the Keep can use to enter. Thus this second somewhat secure entrance provides another method to reinforce the Keep. (Either side can use this passage as an exit.)

To flip a Keep all three Keep bosses have to be killed not just one and the bosses have to be killed in the room within which they reside. They reset if they move out of that room.

Practically speaking when these changes take effect and one shows up in the moors with the map completely the color of the opposite side, if one goes out alone you will have to accept the fact that any opponent you meet will be 40% more powerful than normal (tac/mastery buff) and you will be weaker (- some Audacity you could have had, had you possessed your relics) and even if you kill your opponent you will be rewarded with significantly less comm/inf than they when they kill you. Seemingly the only logical thing to do in these altered circumstances is to start broadcasting, looking for other players to group up with you and perhaps start taking down Outposts.

I like the landscape changes. It should add some variety to the fighting, and force people to rethink positioning instead of diving into the daily EC-TA-OC shuffle. I also like the idea of adding "back-entrances" to the major keeps -- it should reduce the sense of helplessness one side feels when the other is in the process of taking a keep. Now we can actually be *in* the flagroom, defending the keep, instead of trying to get in through the main entrance and being zerged repeatedly.

I'll reserve judgment on the actual mechanics till later -- things may pan out in all kinds of different ways. Perhaps the buffs from holding keeps won't make that much of a difference in the end... we shall see.

Overall, I'm looking forward to playing in the "new" Moors. Should be interesting, even if Turbine hasn't addressed every single flaw in the current setup.

What I'm hoping will happen with what the devs have said:
1. Creeps are getting a well deserved buff.
2. The map is getting a lot of things changed that will hopefully create better fights in more places of the map.
3. People will be encouraged to pvp in smaller groups because of how every outpost gives a buff so the more small groups the better for the side which can create many good fights all across the map.
4. 3 Bosses will hopefully reduce the amount of ninjas that a keep is done by.
5. Comms will be much faster to come by because of the buffs and just overall doubling of commendation bonuses.
6. No commendations for quests which will hopefully bring more pvp to the game.
7. No new pve content(although i don't like it) will hopefully bring more people to pvp that have nothing to do when their toon is at max level but try pvp and maybe love it, or hate it.
7.trolls and rangers are coming back!(up to 3 at a time).
8. Trolls and rangers will be controlled by keeps like it was in the beginning of the game which is great because it counteracts the buffs.
9. Hopefully the new terrain will push players to find new ways to fight at different locations which will put a twist on the pvp we all know.

What i fear will happen:
1. This is my biggest fear about this update, I think that it will create a unbalance in the game. Each outpost awarding a 10% damage bonus will be HUGE. The issue with this is the people with the most numbers will control more outposts always which will create an issue because they already have the most people, they don't need the extra damage buff then.
2. The overall renown gain bonus will feel like turbine is cheating some people(which i've talked to people about, but i really don't care because if the game is more fun i could care less how much faster someone is ranking than me because you get a cool 2nd age for being rank 10+).
3. The 10% MAX morale skill by wargs will just be game breaking because 10 wargs can instantly 1shot any npc, 5k morale to 100million morale.
4. By causing pve to give your side buffs, i feel like people will spend too much pveing to try to buff themselves and not use the buffs they earn to actually pvp which could break the entire point of the update.(It would probably work better if only 1-2 places(changing each day) at a time gave buffs so that fights will always be changing forcing people to think on the spot on how to defend new locations all across the map)

Originally Posted by Trofo

There will be a stacking buff of ~10% physical/tactical mastery for every outpost controlled by a side. With the new count of 5 outposts that is a ~50% buff if all outposts are controlled. Next, for each keep controlled there is a stacking ~20% comm/inf buff for the controlling side. That can total ~60%. Third, losing control of your relics results, in effect, in a -2 Audacity penalty, using present Audacity gear rating. Fourth, the Delving becomes much more important than it has been, at least for the last year.

Your counts are off. Plains Op is gone so it's only 4 OPs (40%) and there are 5 keeps (not three) which yields a bonus of 100%, in layman's terms: Double infamy/renown if you control the map.

Also, while I see why you are counting a -2 Audacity effect for not having relics, that is entirely misleading. The relic Audacity is a bonus, something that's nice to have but not something you count on having. You are either at +1 or +0. It should never be calculated as -anything.

Also, the new relic run will be to go straight from DG or Ost to EC/OC, hit the Delving and run to the Ost/DG entrance for an easy delivery. But with all the new Delving access points I think we'll see a lot more fighting in those tunnels then ever before.

Originally Posted by crl13107

1. This is my biggest fear about this update, I think that it will create a unbalance in the game. Each outpost awarding a 10% damage bonus will be HUGE. The issue with this is the people with the most numbers will control more outposts always which will create an issue because they already have the most people, they don't need the extra damage buff then.

I agree 100%. The damage buffs (increasing outgoing and decreasing incoming) really have me scratching my head. Why buff the side that probably has the population advantage?

I still see room for soloers or small groups. As someone else mentioned, for the best buffs and the highest inf/ren gain, it will be important to hold all keeps and all outposts plus the Delving.

And, personally, I really don't see any zerg being able to strategically hold five outposts, five keeps AND control of the Delving. I think the most you will see is a group of 12 for keeps (if that) and smaller three to six man groups for outpost taking/defense.

If anything, I think it will bring a lot of action to the Ettenmoors.

Honestly, I am just happy to see more than just a bird and a tree.

+20% boost per Keep (Lugs)
+20% boost per Keep (Ta)
+20% boost per Keep (TR)
+20% boost per Keep (Isen)
+20% boost per Keep (LC)
Drake and Huorn are worth 30% a piece (Drake)
Drake and Huorn are worth 30% a piece (Huorn)
Rogmul is worth 40%.
Pop Buff 20% still?
Dp Perk 10%
Store Perk 20%


250% if you have it all...

Originally Posted by Elderban

I still see room for soloers or small groups. As someone else mentioned, for the best buffs and the highest inf/ren gain, it will be important to hold all keeps and all outposts plus the Delving.

And, personally, I really don't see any zerg being able to strategically hold five outposts, five keeps AND control of the Delving. I think the most you will see is a group of 12 for keeps (if that) and smaller three to six man groups for outpost taking/defense.

If anything, I think it will bring a lot of action to the Ettenmoors.

Honestly, I am just happy to see more than just a bird and a tree.

This is the way I see it too.

"Landscape Changes

Currently, the model is focused on rewarding players for taking and flipping a control point, but there is little to no incentive to continue to hold it. The goal is to shift the model to instead provide large benefits for having and keeping locations instead of just benefits for taking them. We want players to participate in a “domination” style of gameplay. What does that mean? At a high level it means the following things:"

I just read that "domination" part and know that with these new stackable buffs that this is going to be a keep/outpost based combination of PvE and PvP. I.e. RvR isn't going anywhere, neither is the zerg action.

Same as before, but with added incentives. Not much has changed except finally its easier/faster to become competitive as a creep... and that was seriously needed. As for all the new/adjusted skills.. we'll just have to see how that goes.

..and ya'll was thinkin' I was crazy for saying that it'll be not as big of a loss when a bunch of creeps go to GW2.

The only thing I worry about is the comms needed for people who need multiple toons on both sides. How I see if playing out is people who freep will take a few weeks to level and regear, whilst creeps have a completely red map and zerg everything they see since quests won't give comms.

At this point freeps will say ok time to get audacity on my freeps and creeps. They'll shoot into the moors and if the maps blue they'll wow I can get 100% (of whatever) moor comms per kill on my freep and play their freep. If the maps red they'll play their creep for the same reason. This will give the winning side more players.

As it is now most of the people I know who play both sides will go to the losing side to get more fights, but with this changes it seems that you are encouraged to play on the side thats already winning thus imblanacing things further.

I'm still looking forward to the changes I just hope this doesn't happen.

It's ok Webferth, I'll be out there to punch you in the face and take your comms when you're freeping.

:P

Love Sars.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

The changes don't look very good to me in terms of varying playstyles. Once again, Turbine is encouraging people to zerg up and PvE. It's good for people who don't actually want to fight other players...

It didn't convince me to buy RoR that's for sure.

Jaiyne is spot on with this one. Pvp didn't get any attention at all for awhile, now they turned around and gave it so much attention they kill it with a crushing hug.

I can already see how it will be, of course with the lack of freeps in the moors for the first month or two creeps will start out with every buff imaginable, afew freeps will try to take an outpost and succeed only have them taken right back by creeps if left unattended. Freeps will get destroyed over and over until they decide to make a giant 24+ man raid and flip it all back in rage while using 3 rangers to their side. Thus the story will go on from there, the constant Zerg for pve will not end as long as one side is not happy with the amount of buffs they have.

Man I'm gonna feel so bad for those super dedicated freeps with nothing else to do but pvp those first few months ( you know which ones I'm talking about too, the ones that come out not even being maxed lvl just to dip their toe in the water. Fighting max lvl creeps with every outpost , keep and relic buff).

Its only 10 levels, Within a week there will be freeps out there. I see the same people complaining about &&&&, Its a game, if its so "broken" or "unbalanced" dont play. The changes will hopefully mix things up for a while. Moors was never meant to be a solo'rs playground, deal with it or go back to swtor.

Originally Posted by NakedSingularity

Its only 10 levels, Within a week there will be freeps out there.

Guess youre expecting them to be using the level 75 audacity set during that time freeps have to change all their gear. must have slipped the devs minds somewhere that to maintain freep audacity at 7 they have to use the level 75 set while building towards the +2 set. so freeps wont have the same audacity for a while since, hopefully the majority, will have changed their gear to reflect level 85 armor/stat levels.

But if they don't go out there at 85 with 7 aud how are they going to get the comms for the plus 2 set? Not everyone has creeps.

Ah but wait, farmers gunna farm with a 250% bonus.... I can see the apology threads now.....

Originally Posted by NakedSingularity

farmers gunna farm

Quoted For Truth

Originally Posted by Starkraft

Quoted For Truth

you got your freevers ready again?

Originally Posted by NakedSingularity

Its only 10 levels, Within a week there will be freeps out there. I see the same people complaining about &&&&, Its a game, if its so "broken" or "unbalanced" dont play. The changes will hopefully mix things up for a while. Moors was never meant to be a solo'rs playground, deal with it or go back to swtor.

lul. I bet people like you love the zergy changes <3

If it means you don't like it then i do. Back in your swtor box pls.

I haven't played TOR regularly since March...

You can have an opinion about the changes, and so can others (and hopefully I am very wrong of course...). Hate is bad for you man

So it's now much easier (and more rewarding) to zerg the map. Excellent update for zerglings, sucks for everyone else, although as 90% of the players in the moors are zergbots this doesn't come as a surprise.

More than enough excuse to abandon game.

Also: L0L0L @ the angry man child

Solo play is going downhill....

Although it will be interesting camping tr rez on candy mt. Will be able to see the freep zerg come pick up there bads from a mile away.