Thread: Dev Diary Feedback: The Ettenmoors

Originally Posted by OverlordGate

This is the right way for PvMP! Excellent Dev Diary! Excellent Changes!

Don´t know if the +200% Infamy of the keeps and the delving of fror is a bit too much. But you keep an eye on it! Perfect!

Actually it isn't. They just made pve even more useful.

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

I think any mastery bonus is probably too high. Have incentives to take outposts be commendations/renown bonuses. But, IMHO, anything that tends to make the current winning side stronger is not a good thing for balance. If balance gets too bad, the side that is on the short end currently tends to log. This is positive feedback for that condition. As is the relic bonus for that matter...

Many board games have balancing mechanisms that prevent the current leader from running away with the game to keep the game interesting for longer. Same theory applies to moors. You always want an incentive for both sides to come out and fight, regardless of the relative factional strengths. The dominant side will likely be able to get all the outposts and will thus be more dominant...

I do think this positive feedback loop needs some serious play testing. It seems like it could go very badly with the strong side getting stronger.

That being said, I think the devs chose outposts as the main "strength" boost because they are easy to take. If you log your creep into a blue map with a lot of freeps out, with a capable and quick group of 3 or 4 you can pretty easily ninja a couple of their outposts and then take the fight to the freeps. Of course, they are going to be roaming the map looking for you, but that should spread them out more and give you a fighting chance...I think that is Turbine's hope anyway. Besides, don't forget the troll and ranger (up to 3 of each) are now connected to control of these strategic points.

Originally Posted by spiritintelligencia

Wargs are the FotM class of the last several months... and you are going to make it EASIER for them to gank and hips/speed away!!??? What am I missing here?

I would reserve my judgement on that until we can see how exactly new trait/skill/racial boxes are looking after Beta - who knows, it could mean setting a warg up for "maximum cowardice" will result in significant gimping of eg. dps.

That or Hunters are finally getting Heightened Senses passive and/or revamped and stealth itself is going to be slightly nerfed.


OK, that last line was a stroke of unhealthy optimism.

Originally Posted by zxzxz

Nop.
This is not even close for me to resub and buy RoR. Still too much pve, no new promised map, comm grind, freeps will still crit 6k+, champs just running around with their sprint and bubbles, minstrels still being OP, wardens still able to take on a raid without dying, greater healing on freepside than on creepside, the list goes on. I don't see me playing this ever again, until then ill be playing GW2.

This issue is not so much about unbalanced, but lack of pvp content and the same old same old.

You already have been told why there is no new map coming.

Improving Commendation distribution in large groups.

Yeah, terrible idea. Saying what "you're investigating" does nothing but add to the word count, like almost 1/4 of the first page which does nothing but vaguely describe goals. And noones going to go to the delving to kill the bosses still, for infamy buffs. Alot of players at this point (at least I naively tell myself this) enjoy the fights rather than the points.

The creep changes all look good except warg, 3m CD on traited sprint AND disappear? It's ok to admit when you just don't want a class to die. Skills like disappear shouldn't be there in the first place.

50 bucks says the current freep cosmetic (pvp armour) gets copy-pasted at least 3-4 more times before it's changed.

Originally Posted by Eartholloth

You already have been told why there is no new map coming.

Not asking for a new map, but to simply take away these pve nonsense and to rework on the whole map. Why are there so many keeps/outposts? Delving? More pve. I don't see how these changes are good for people who actually do want to pvp....

First, thank you, devs, for the attention. It's obvious you all put some serious work into this.

For the most part, these changes look very nice. The lowering of creep skill/trait costs is huge, and the boost to creep damage and healing is very much needed. It will be interesting to see whether the LIs stay in after the pve population has its qq fit, but I think it's a nice reward for dedicated pvp'ers.

Really, my main gripe is with the continued insistence that we pve. While I think the proposed system is much more dynamic than the old one, I do not see it as any great improvement, as most will still be focusing on taking keeps, outposts, etc. Also, it makes zergs the most effective grouping option. Once a zerg gets rolling with the boosts, it will roll the map (and the opposition) even faster. I understand the usefulness of a zerg, but I wouldn't want it elevated in effectiveness above small group or solo play. Additionally, I think this new incentive system for pve targets will further discourage open field fights. I do, however, like the position changes of EC and OC, as they will allow use of the camps as forward bases.

My only other gripe is that I want more than a 10% discount on the armour I trade in, but, really, that's just me being lazy and is not a big deal.

Overall, it looks like a positive step forward.

Edit: I agree with the many others who want a timer reintroduced.

Originally Posted by kerda2000

The fact that some freep players flip to their creeps almost immediately and retake everything you've just worked for, for 45 minutes or more? It's become the joke of every server when people start leaving your raid, and you better not get stuck there without a port or a map out.

blah blah blah blah

You didn't read the dev diary very well. Flipping keeps/outposts/relics only to flip sides and take it again will be of zero value to anyone.

Apparently some of the LOTRO devs got access to the GW2 beta weekends.

All sounds well and good but unless I missed something this is still catering to established players. Doesn't matter how many fancy shinies you throw in at the end of the line, if a green creep still gets 3-shotted by a freep no-one is going to bother sticking around when there are multiple alternatives that don't penalise you from the start.

Only thing really missing is have some sort of SWTOR/WAR style autoscaling for the lowbie freeps. If level 40-85 were able to join, and the 40's able to grind XP out there, in addition to everything else, it would make it rather interesting.

Of course, the audacity gear would need to scale by level then.

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

I think any mastery bonus is probably too high. Have incentives to take outposts be commendations/renown bonuses. But, IMHO, anything that tends to make the current winning side stronger is not a good thing for balance. If balance gets too bad, the side that is on the short end currently tends to log. This is positive feedback for that condition. As is the relic bonus for that matter...

Could always give a commendation bonus upon death if the other side has 2/3 of the cap points out there.

Originally Posted by jwbarry

As part of these changes Distraction has been disabled in the Moors.

If you're interested in testing out and seeing the changes in action and you are in beta, everything in this diary is live on Bullroarer.

So does this mean Hunters lose ANOTHER skill when playing in the Moors?

In addition to Desperate flight being disabled we now have Distracting Shot Disabled?

If this is the case then I will continue to boycott the Moors until such time as my skills are re-enabled.
This really kills all enthusiasm I might have had for returning to the Moors on my Hunter.

Originally Posted by site400

Apparently some of the LOTRO devs got access to the GW2 beta weekends.

If this is true. I suggest they stop right there, nothing can compete with GW2 at this point. That made me laugh irl though


They are making us pve more than ever with all these benefits of keeps/outposts...how are people saying this is the right way for pvmp. I bet people will still flip everything again with zero value.

it seem to me that one of the complants on my server is freeps doing the emviroment and not pvmp this system seem to make it an absolute nessity to pvpe bfore you pvmp it seam the force the very thing the playersdidnt whant in the first place.
is there any thing you can do about kins going out on one side or the other but have one or two toons on the other side point out where the stealth targes are or reporting evcery move made giving there kin mate a tactical addvantage such as have a freep point out where burges are stealthed then when the creeps show up they they go right to the burge and dont do any thing to the freeps helping then out this hapens both way it got to the point i dont party with any one but kin and hve to go to great lenghts to loose all tagalongs i think this is counter productive and unfare to freeps and creeps and alowws larger kins to controll game play in the moors

The one thing I would say is I don't think comms are that bad to get now, but that's partially because of map deeds. If we need to reget audacity while already having done all the map deeds, that could be an issue. Give creeps some sort of credit or let us redo the deeds or something along those lines.

Originally Posted by jwbarry

As part of these changes Distraction has been disabled in the Moors.

If you're interested in testing out and seeing the changes in action and you are in beta, everything in this diary is live on Bullroarer.

Ok you are leveling the playing field for heals and damage... when does my hunter get the set that doubles my morale? This is giving a huge equalizer to creep side which they need, but the changes I am seeing are going to make my hunter uplayable. BAs already are cranking out huge dps and you will give them steadfast barrage on the move with skirmisher stance? I can't kill a ranked war leader/defiler now.. they are going to be impossible with the healing buffs you are talking about and giving them damage increases on top of that is crazy. I played both sides and know that certain classes are better than other fotm .. but my hunter hasn't had any reason to be in the moors for three books now and this book will be worse than any other. We are already at the bottom looking up, you giving us a shovel to dig down a little deeper? The hunter gear is again pitiful... CC isn't killing me it is dps and inflated monster morale. I can't increase my morale without destroying my dps. Hunters have the biggest loss of dps for morale and vice versa out there and virturally same horrible set is showing up again. Why?

Show me how my hunter is going to compete now with skills that will ignore even more of my useless aud set. I need to know o because while I like the changes to the landscape a lot my hunter is going to die harder and faster than ever before... aud was supposed to prolong fights but it isn't working that way for my class. A 10% bonus for turn in... when you released the aud numbers at the start of this brilliant plan the turn in was half..... now 40% disappears. My set that I have now is 75... we are ranking to 85.. the set you give me now is no better who you trying to scam? Sure I can get more aud quicker... if I kill monster players but how will I with the handcuffs on?

Tydalmir

Originally Posted by Grhysli

So does this mean Hunters lose ANOTHER skill when playing in the Moors?

In addition to Desperate flight being disabled we now have Distracting Shot Disabled?

If this is the case then I will continue to boycott the Moors until such time as my skills are re-enabled.
This really kills all enthusiasm I might have had for returning to the Moors on my Hunter.

You misunderstood. By "Distraction" he means the Minstrel skill that reduces npc's perservation radius by 75%. Not the hunter skill Distracting Shot.

Originally Posted by Grhysli

So does this mean Hunters lose ANOTHER skill when playing in the Moors?

In addition to Desperate flight being disabled we now have Distracting Shot Disabled?

If this is the case then I will continue to boycott the Moors until such time as my skills are re-enabled.
This really kills all enthusiasm I might have had for returning to the Moors on my Hunter.

No, he's talking about the minstrel skill "Song of Distraction" which makes NPCs have practically zero aggro radius so freeps can walk right past them into a keep without much fighting.

No Moors-only nerfs to champs, wardens or minis...? Still no use of the monster-play buff to balance freeps?

Warg escape skills do not need to be on shorter CDs.

Piercing Claws

Your vicious claws allow you to tear through even the toughest armour.

Melee attack that ignores 50% of your target’s mitigations and does 10% of the target’s max morale as damage.

Somehow I think this is a bad idea...

IMO WL shield bash should be a base 3s stun and a 5s stun on crit without the CD reset.

BA buffs are good.

3: -30s Heart Seeker Power Cost - Lolwut?

5: Remorseless Strike Pip Cost Removed - This is going to be lulzy.

The stacking buffs from relics/outposts should be right click removable or something like that. It's going to really annoy a lot of people if they can't have fair 1 v 1s because of what the zerglings are doing. I was trying to think of a way to keep it only affecting the zerglings. I thought of suggesting making it only apply near keeps/OPs, but then the opposing side would just not fight while the buffed side turtles in the keep/OP. I thought of making it apply the buff for X amount of time when you leave the keep/OP zone, but it would be rather silly if you could see somebody, run into range of the keep to get the buff, and then go totally destroy the first person you saw.

You shouldn't be able to enter/exit the delving in combat.

No changes to CC being worthless. And no moors casting concentration skill for LMs(Maybe in an added skill? Somehow I doubt it). Yay

Originally Posted by Grhysli

So does this mean Hunters lose ANOTHER skill when playing in the Moors?

In addition to Desperate flight being disabled we now have Distracting Shot Disabled?

If this is the case then I will continue to boycott the Moors until such time as my skills are re-enabled.
This really kills all enthusiasm I might have had for returning to the Moors on my Hunter.

Um... this is going to be a very, very long boycott then, with Distraction being a property of another class.

And in terms of "hunter enthusiasm" - direct your inquiries to ZC :P

Too little too late. GW2 here I come.

i agree on some points, and some other i dont, like the sets for everyone on freep? you said seasonal? this isnt seasonal they are the same sets. wargs more op? cool story. nice on the Wl and reavers congrats to you guys on actually gettings tons and healers also! personally good job on this, but seriously, why not change a few things on the sets? for it, they seem all the same bonus, well actually They are the same -.-

Originally Posted by Grhysli

So does this mean Hunters lose ANOTHER skill when playing in the Moors?

In addition to Desperate flight being disabled we now have Distracting Shot Disabled?

If this is the case then I will continue to boycott the Moors until such time as my skills are re-enabled.
This really kills all enthusiasm I might have had for returning to the Moors on my Hunter.

No they are talking about minis who can distract everyone but the tyrant and blow up a keep.

MASSIVE! Ironically, I'm most intrigued by the landscape changes. I can't wait to see how the camps have moved, where land has risen or fallen, etc.

Originally Posted by Eartholloth

Not me... PVP doesnt interest me at all.

He was talking about PvP within the Moors being primary, instead of having to PvE. If you aren't interested in PvP, you should probably avoid threads about PvP.

Originally Posted by Louvre

BTW anyone else noticed this ?

...orbs...

Quite intriguing .

Not really. It's the old word for RK stones they used in MoM development. Most instances have been translated since, but JW must have missed the memo.

Originally Posted by kerda2000

The fact that some freep players flip to their creeps almost immediately and retake everything you've just worked for, for 45 minutes or more? It's become the joke of every server when people start leaving your raid, and you better not get stuck there without a port or a map out.

As others have said, there is no longer any incentive for doing this. Flipping keeps means nothing. Holding them means everything. There is an incentive for playing on the winning side, of course, but how would you propose preventing that?

Originally Posted by Moondog548

Everything sounds like really good PvP gameplay mechanics!

except Audacity seasons...

That sounds like a strong discouragement mechanic to coming to the moors in the first place. Only vets will have a chance to hit/survive.

I'm also wondering if there's anything for 3-6man "commando" groups to do? Or shall the zerg still be the one and only way to play? Most folks' computers can't practically handle raid + raid + npcs + probably another raid on screen all at once, not to mention the very limited style of fun that scenario makes available.

Seasons is to encourage regular play, not "vets" that have played for a long time. The commendation cap prevents anyone from stockpiling them, so it's actually the opposite of encouraging only vets.

Originally Posted by Belnavar

^This.

If there's not already a little area for 1v1s, you should consider adding one before RoR, or at least shortly thereafter.

-Bel

If you want to 1v1, go spar in 21st Hall. The Ettenmoors is for large-scale dynamic PvP, not inf/renown farming.

Originally Posted by zxzxz

Nop.
This is not even close for me to resub and buy RoR. Still too much pve, ...(snip)..., until then ill be playing GW2.

Were you under the impression there is no PvE in GW2's WvW (the Moors equivalent)?

That new type of unique Ettenmoors Legendary Item sounds interesting, any chance of getting some more info on it in a later developer diary?

Originally Posted by jwbarry

We are not trying to shoot the mystical silver bullet that magically makes everything in better. That's what we've tried doing in the past that has lead us to where we are today. That silver bullet doesn't exist and any attempts to try to find it are only going to lead us astray.

Okay, Joe. I am insulted. Hello! Silverbullets! Right here!!!! You could have talked to me any time and I would have magically solved everything!

But seriously, Joe, these changes have me drueling. I haven't gotten my hopes up for PvMP like this since Moria. I pray these changes are all we dream them to be.

My only concern is, as another poster above me said, is whether people will flip to the "winning" side due to commendations being shared across characters on the same account. They really need to be bound to the player to prevent this from happening. Players MUST choose which character they wish to advance, and stick with it.

However, I'm not sure it is that big of a deal, either, because if everyone flips to the "winning" side, suddenly there isn't much to kill to earn commendations anyway. I guess we'll find out when it goes live. *crosses fingers*

As far as audacity goes, it's a wretched system for freeps. I really do pity you freeps out there. At least creeps get to keep some of their progress on it. For creepside, I'm glad it's cheeper, though I wish I could get a refund for buying audacity #2.

Honestly, though, as a ranked warg with only 2 audacity, I don't feel audacity is a huge deal breaker. Yes, I die a bit more. But I still can contribute to groups just fine and get away from danger much of the time. Can't speak for other classes, though. Still, I think it all evens out freep vs creep. There's bound to be a mix on both sides where some have full audacity and others don't due to their newness or casual playstyles. As long as it balances out raid vs raid or group vs group, I think it's fine. A bit grindy and obnoxious, but we'll survive.

My only complaint is sometimes I wish I had a commendations bar on my HUD, as well as an infamy bar (infamy bar less so since I'm likely to never rank again). It's sort of like watching your XP bar go up as you level. Would make killing freeps more addicting that way.

Can Turbine say when the beta will become public and/or the NDA will be lifted allowing us to see details on the new changes?

Originally Posted by avengingbananaslug

The one thing I would say is I don't think comms are that bad to get now, but that's partially because of map deeds. If we need to reget audacity while already having done all the map deeds, that could be an issue. Give creeps some sort of credit or let us redo the deeds or something along those lines.

While I wouldn't say those maps are an instasalvation for greenie (today)...

- are there any changes to existing deeds or resets/retroactive bonuses and so on?

- are there any changes to Creep Map spots? (with OPs, rez circles etc being moved)

Originally Posted by Moop69

Your vicious claws allow you to tear through even the toughest armour.

Melee attack that ignores 50% of your target’s mitigations and does 10% of the target’s max morale as damage.

Somehow I think this is a bad idea...

Will have to see it live...but it doesn't sound like a much (depending on CD).....assumption freep has 8k? morale....that's a 800 hit max that is then mitigated (even if only 1/2 mitigated) and then presumably audacity reduction as well.....doesn't really seem over the top?

REALLY BAD IDEA: Champ Set Bonus to remove pip cost on remorseless strike. Really not a good idea. Boring/dumbed down gameplay for the champ. Stupid damage output when used with an approrpriately legacied 2-handed weapon. Really bad idea.

Originally Posted by Ferthcott

Um... this is going to be a very, very long boycott then, with Distraction being a property of another class.

And in terms of "hunter enthusiasm" - direct your inquiries to ZC :P

OK thanks to all who replied and pointed out that Distraction being referred to is a Minstrel skill.
I would like to see confirmation of this from the Dev himself if possible. Please JBARRY?

Also thanks for the laugh (the bold highlighted part above in the quoted text) I needed one :-)
(ZC has been totally absent from the Hunter forums for nearly a year now.)

Great that Ettenmoors gets some attention from devs, good job

I have just a few suggestions:

--- make a message pop on the screen (like the one that appears when a keep falls) when a keep is under attack or relic taken and especially when someone is fighting the Rogmul, id hate not being able to get epic fights in that zone (if not creeps will get rogmul in the morning, freeps will take it back in evening, so no fighting in the lava) . That way every from other side know that there is PvP to be done. Else zerging squads will just take all keeps when they log then start the zerg while ungrouped creeps/freeps will be taken by surprise. Then log off or worse switch.

--- do not make any message appear for OP. As i understand them they are to be taken stealthly and strategically so the main group gets bonuses.

--- put back the CD for switching. It pains me to see ppl switch. A very drastic measure would be to allow freeps/creeps into ettens on a ratio. But that would deny the right to play for some....denying a right to play for some so that the others benefit from a better game experience....sounds rather odd now that i read it :P

--- refund some commendations when RoR comes live for creeps. Many have invested alot in their creeps in the time where prices were inflated (and you admited they were). It would at least make me not think ive wasted so much time grinding the 20k for my wargie. A few thousand comms for each creep could be nice. Or a fixed sum per account? Or a free skill+trait+corruption+audacit y rank.

Thats all i thought of saying, maybe ill read it again more carefully. So please Turbine, help us do battle in the lava near the rogmul, its to good of a setting.

Cheers!

Joe can you plz answer if you are gonna implemend critical+critical multiplier with Battlefield promotions?

And the freeps that already QQ...plz get your tears somewhere else cause you HAVE NO IDEA what skills ans changes will come to your freeps classes SO PLZ STOP QQ.You are crying already just like the first week of RoI and BA revenge skill

jesus guys...jesus

Originally Posted by Grhysli

OK thanks to all who replied and pointed out that Distraction being referred to is a Minstrel skill.
I would like to see confirmation of this from the Dev himself if possible. Please JBARRY?

Also thanks for the laugh (the bold highlighted part above in the quoted text) I needed one :-)
(ZC has been totally absent from the Hunter forums for nearly a year now.)

Yes, the Distraction in question is a minstrel skill that basically makes an NPC ignore the world.

Two items i do not see addressed at all...
1) stealth , especially hips
2) pot availibility

I for one have never found a recipe to make dot healing pots. I can buy them in the store, is that how the creeps do also, or is it something they buy with comms, etc. Also the store pots are not as good as the creep pots...

Stealth, hips, if you keep it on such a short time cd, then give the hunters back their quick escape. We cant heal ourselfs, with audacity our "CC" is all but worthless. In addition, why did you remove the ability to track from horse back only in the moors. And please what is with the +10 stealth skills/pots the creeps have, put it in line with the lm...

But on the overall physical changes, i like the look of them. On beefing up the BA, hmmm, how about toning down that 30s , 75% evade..This is an orc archer. That flips on and its fight over...

Just my two coppers

i must say these changes looks intresting!

"The water depth in places has been adjusted so all races either walk or swim."
i am a dwarf.

Reinstate time limit lockout

Turbine, you need to reinstate the lock out that prevented players from flipping from freep to creep and vice versa.

I would also like it to go both directions... ie:

If your on your Creep, you can not bring any Freep to the moors for X amount of time.
If you are on your Freep (In the moors), you can not log into any creep for X amount of time.
30 minutes to 1 hour would work.

The changes you have proposed all look interesting. However, you need to address the problem of players flipping back and forth to either spy, fightclub, or take the map back.

This mechanic used to be in effect, you should be able to put it back in place fairly easy. Please do so.

Originally Posted by Landrovas

--- make a message pop on the screen (like the one that appears when a keep falls) when a keep is under attack

I just imagined a lone Burglar aggroing Tyrant* over and over again as some sort of a trollololo (some would probably call this a strategy )



*I assume that's how triggering such popup would be happening.

This is so close to pushing me over to buy RoR and stay VIP, keep playing. Had there been the slightest attention given to healers in the moors that would have been enough -- I'd have ordered first thing this morning. As it stands, the concerns over Turbine's business practices/customer support and lack of commitment to quality releases still outweigh everything else. I hope they can change that, because I do want to stay. My last active subscription expires in August, so still some hope.


I'd also like to see a lock-out implemented. Make people decide what side they are on and work it for a while.

Originally Posted by qru

Group up with the dps -> you get rewards for keeping them alive.

Naturally. However, as a healer I often see non-fellow people (hi champs!) running scared...umm I mean making a tactical move to a reward position...and I'll toss them heals. Also, people often pst me asking for rezzes. I'm putting myself right at the top of the creep hit list to help other freeps, and get nothing for it. The very design of the moors makes it pretty clear that they don't want healers out there.

Originally Posted by Ritenn

Only one question from me. Will there be any good reason to participate in that "new" PvMP - reward wise?
Will we get anything, apart of slighty tweaked sets and cosmetic LI?

I've never understood this mindset. This is a game, and I assume we're all here to have fun. Shouldn't a well-functioning PvMP aspect be playable just for the sake of having fun? Does there really need to be a digital carrot to keep us going? If so, it's probably time to rethink why we're logging in.

Looks pretty good to me. This is probably the first developers diary for ages that makes me (as a creep) want to carry on. The only thing I have got an issue with, most of the changes give you extra comms/etc. Sometimes I get a kill where I've done most of the damage and may get maybe less than 10 infamy. You are trying to encourage PvP, I know it will take a while to sort things out but I would have thought having a 'min level' infamy say maybe 20 or so for any hand in a kill, then bonuses for level etc. might encourage PvP further.

Otherwise, nice one!