Thread: Dev Diary Feedback: The Ettenmoors

Originally Posted by FatherDamien

Turbine has a limited amount of money and man power to do everything that needs to be done for this game.

Yes. And what they do is use these limited ressources again and again and again to do the wrong changes to the moors.

Originally Posted by mmdur1

But I disagree with you that it is not Turbine's problem if people don't adapt. The stated reason for these changes is that they feel the Moors is an under-utilized region. It logically follows that one of their goals is to get people to play MORE in the Moors. If people are turned off by the changes and decide to sit in GV AFK or just to quit PvP then the changes have failed in their stated intention.

I'd still disagree there, I'd say that if people decide to sit in GV afk or just quit, it would have to do more with the still-glaring lack of rewards.

• For some classes those audacity sets are good, but for others they are just boring. For the hunter, its really sad that there are three entire options, and not one of them will be appealing enough to go all the way to 5 with it.
• And even if the sets are good, they are still the same sets from the last season and that's BOR-ing.
• The cloaks are still sub par to pve cloaks
• the new LI's are cool, but still its only a cosmetic thing
• Rank itself still has no inherent reward
• Leadership nor healing have any inherent reward
• Pots are nice, but I woudln't term acquiring them as fun
• Still no new pvp jewelry since SOM
• No new offhands since EOTD
• Scaled r10 cloaks still suck
• R9 horse is still sub-par to other 68% speed horses

So to me, the lack of will to adapt has more to do with the lack of incentive to take the punishment that's coming. No one during MoM or SoM farmed brilliant stones until they made the armor worth the grind. It'd be the same thing here but in this case punishment, instead of grind.

And Turbine, you already apologized for Radiance once. Can you please stop recycling bad ideas? Thank you.

With all due respect to the developers, the hunter set bonuses for audacity are once again very, very bad.

First off: For a incoming healing reduction, the merciful shot 5 set bonus is very poor. It is half of what the current reduction for devastating strike is, and has a five second shorter duration. On top of that, merciful shot costs double what other focus skills cost, making it obsolete due to the fact that it does not do enough damage (unless you are traiting it, and even then may not be able to keep up) to counter the high focus.
Please consider either upping the -inc healing debuff, duration, or changing the set bonus entirely.

Second: Removing the focus cost on a three minute cooldown skill is barely worth working for the five set bonus. Maybe with a cooldown reduction of one minute as well, this set bonus would be much more worthwhile. And before any creeps respond by calling it overpowered, keep in mind that black arrows can trait death blossom with a 15 second root on a one minute cooldown.

Finally: The Blue line set bonus for precision is sub-par for a five set bonus. -25% crowd control duration in a moors with audacity and diminishing returns means very little in the long run. The best blue-line set bonus for the moors that I have seen has been the current Faron set bonus from ToO. The penetrating shot focus subtraction allows greater mobility, which in the moors today, is necessary.

These are just my thoughts on the current bonuses slated for Riders of Rohan. Please consider them.

Originally Posted by DEViled_Egg

Hello! One quick thing I'd like to address; Audacity is being increased to rank 13, not 14. Apologies for not catching this typo before it made it out.

Hello and welcome to the forums DEViled_Egg. I see this is your first post, are you part of the team involved in the revamp of Ettenmoors?

Originally Posted by VincentVanPort

Just to add another thought on solo abilities. I do not want to let the game dictate me, when soloing is preferable or possible at all. With all buffs up I will roll over any Creep, while standing no chance when the buffs are opposing? How is this enhancing my fun in the Moors? If I win any 1vs1 or any fight I want to know that it was me that done the work and achievment, not some kind of stupid statistic working in the background either making it easy or impossible. There is no point in it.

Even if the buff is not maxed all the time for either side, I am relying on other people to enhance my soloing experience by conquering outposts and therefore not doing PvP either.

The point is, game is already doing so when your reaver runs into a Minstrel or you run into MT(rolling) BA. The only difference is, those disparities are more static, well known, people got used to them and they make some sort of perverted "sense". But exchange that Mini for fresh 75 one or get storebought BA who has no clue nor Audacity and you will perform as if you had equivalent of those buffs, only without having any idea how to translate those differences into objective values, percentages etc. THAT is why it *looks* different. Until RoR arrives, PvP upgrades are already coming from PvE in large quantities, so your soloing experience is already enhanced or worsened by them one way or another - result is, arguably, the same.

Sure, you stand no chance when creep has full buffs... assuming we are talking about ranked, skilled and full of Audacity one - and even then a lot of those buffs are necessary to *ensure* result if we want degree of certainty like in those examples above. But then.... then there is this crowd of greenies, mid - rankers, storebought casuals, out-of-cooldowns encounters who normally would die with not much of a chance and who are not exactly scarce. I wouldn't be so eager to attribute those deaths to your work alone and call them achievements either. No matter how skilled they are, they are walking corpses thanks to low Audacity, lack of class skills, expensive consumables, even those battle promos can make a difference. It's *the same* issue with "stupid statistic working in the background", heck how many times you could say some crazy dev on Blood Arrow saved your life? Sure, it came from rating you worked for - but it could just as well apply to AA instead, no rating decides about *that* I believe.

The difference? OP buffs come from making an effort, playing in Moors or goldtagging from others and are temporary. Other upgrades come from making an effort, playing in Moors or goldtagging from others and are permanent until advancement is made. I agree that "full buffs" can make many encounters impossible - but it is a cost of more diversified matchups in the middle and FOR the middle via giving weaker classes a shot at those who are usually their bane. Not only thanks to "skill" but also thanks to the same type of stupid statistic you described, just wearing different clothes.

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

Compare the "outnumbered" buff, which helps the side that is on the short end of things, with the outpost control buff, which generally empowers the side that is currently stronger. I don't see the logic.
I see the reasons to want to make outposts/keeps worth taking, but don't see that making the
stronger faction more powerful will encourage a good moors experience.

IMHO, it is a good goal to try and have folks coming out to the moors have some reasonable activity/objectives/rewards when
1) Their faction is much weaker than the other faction
2) Their faction is slightly weaker than the other faction
3) Their faction is about even with the other faction
4) Their faction is slightly stronger than the other faction
5) Their faction is much stronger than the other faction

The difference between the new system and the ON buff is that the new system gives players control over who has buffs. There is no way to actively try to get the ON buff right now, it just happens. With the new system, freeps and creeps and especially leaders on each side have control over which faction is "stronger" even if the other side has greater numbers. When an experienced freep/creep logs in to an outnumbered scenario, their goal should be to move the situation from point #1 or #2 above to point #3 or #4 above by grabbing a couple of others and swiping some outposts quickly via guerrilla warfare, the same way any successful numerically disadvantaged group fights. It doesn't matter that the opponents control all 5 keeps and have greater numbers if you have +25% outgoing damage, are mobile, and can spread your larger opponent out over the map. The new system will reward good leadership and strategy much more than the old one.

Light of the rising dawn resets sticky gourd cd with critical hit? It's only a 30 second cd. Why don't you put it on something that has a several minute cd like lightning storm or march of the ents? Oh yeah, great idea about the wargs. Make the 99% of creeps on Dwaro even more annoying, awesome thanks!!!

Originally Posted by asearchforreason

The difference between the new system and the ON buff is that the new system gives players control over who has buffs. There is no way to actively try to get the ON buff right now, it just happens. With the new system, freeps and creeps and especially leaders on each side have control over which faction is "stronger" even if the other side has greater numbers. When an experienced freep/creep logs in to an outnumbered scenario, their goal should be to move the situation from point #1 or #2 above to point #3 or #4 above by grabbing a couple of others and swiping some outposts quickly via guerrilla warfare, the same way any successful numerically disadvantaged group fights. It doesn't matter that the opponents control all 5 keeps and have greater numbers if you have +25% outgoing damage, are mobile, and can spread your larger opponent out over the map. The new system will reward good leadership and strategy much more than the old one.

This is a good point.

Originally Posted by Lestache

People are "made whole" when they've been wronged in some way, and that's not applicable here.

The net effect if they don't make some adjustment would be wrong. It would take away two-thirds of what a monster player has already bought, leaving them at the break point where the Audacity ranks increase in cost (assuming 7 Audacity pre-expansion), and not compensating them for it. If no adjustments are made, the 36,000 commendations invested in 7 Audacity are deflated to 7,125 while the effectiveness of said Audacity is reduced to one-third.

Here are the relevant bits of text from the dev diary:

"The bonuses of Audacity are being redistributed such that ranks 1 through 6 now hold 1/3 of the maximum potency available, and ranks 7 through 14 hold the remaining 2/3. ...

For Creeps, ranks 2 through 6 of Audacity cost a total of 1125 Commendations (all Creeps start off with rank 1). Ranks 7 through 14 cost 6000 Commendations each."

Originally Posted by Captaculous

If the copy process of moving a character to Bullroarer drops the shared Green Currencies, which are not tied to a individual character, a player might see their freep with zero commendation and think that the balance has been reset.

On a whole different question, as it appears that many of the set bonuses are the same on the Lvl 75 and Lvl 85 PVP sets, do the +1 and +2 audacity sets work together to get the set bonus or are they independent? Do we get two 3 piece set bonuses if I have, for example, 3 lvl 75 perseverance pieces and 3 different lvl 85 perseverance pieces for a double dose of -20% RC cooldown reduction? Or double stacked CD reduction on and Escape from Darkness rez? A captain would be awesome with a always available in-combat rez

Nope! You cannot stack set bonuses between the level 75 and level 85 versions of armour. Sorry!

Originally Posted by Roberticus

The net effect if they don't make some adjustment would be wrong. It would take away two-thirds of what a monster player has already bought, leaving them at the break point where the Audacity ranks increase in cost (assuming 7 Audacity pre-expansion), and not compensating them for it. If no adjustments are made, the 36,000 commendations invested in 7 Audacity are deflated to 7,125 while the effectiveness of said Audacity is reduced to one-third.

Here are the relevant bits of text from the dev diary:

"The bonuses of Audacity are being redistributed such that ranks 1 through 6 now hold 1/3 of the maximum potency available, and ranks 7 through 14 hold the remaining 2/3. ...

For Creeps, ranks 2 through 6 of Audacity cost a total of 1125 Commendations (all Creeps start off with rank 1). Ranks 7 through 14 cost 6000 Commendations each."

Yes, and still nobody is being wronged by this.

I have an older iPhone with fewer features than the latest brand - I don't get $200 back from Apple just because my phone is worth 1/4 of what it used to be and people who spend now what I spent then will get more than I have. Perhaps I'd get a discount if I turned in the old phone, though - sort of like freeps are getting a discount for turning in their old armor.

Could we get some more info for the new creep skills?
Power cost,cooldowns or even base dmg?

Originally Posted by MitchTheReap

Light of the rising dawn resets sticky gourd cd with critical hit? It's only a 30 second cd. Why don't you put it on something that has a several minute cd like lightning storm or march of the ents? Oh yeah, great idea about the wargs. Make the 99% of creeps on Dwaro even more annoying, awesome thanks!!!

I agree completely. Minstrels get essentially the same thing with the Coda of Fury resetting Cry of the Wizards (also a 30s cd). It makes it completely useless to get.

Originally Posted by Lestache

I have an older iPhone with fewer features than the latest brand - I don't get $200 back from Apple just because my phone is worth 1/4 of what it used to be and people who spend now what I spent then will get more than I have. Perhaps I'd get a discount if I turned in the old phone, though - sort of like freeps are getting a discount for turning in their old armor.

We're not talking about depreciation of a physical commodity. That analogy doesn't even make sense.

Anyway, agree or disagree, unless you're a dev I'm really not interested in debating the merits of my question.

Originally Posted by asearchforreason

The difference between the new system and the ON buff is that the new system gives players control over who has buffs. There is no way to actively try to get the ON buff right now, it just happens. With the new system, freeps and creeps and especially leaders on each side have control over which faction is "stronger" even if the other side has greater numbers. When an experienced freep/creep logs in to an outnumbered scenario, their goal should be to move the situation from point #1 or #2 above to point #3 or #4 above by grabbing a couple of others and swiping some outposts quickly via guerrilla warfare, the same way any successful numerically disadvantaged group fights. It doesn't matter that the opponents control all 5 keeps and have greater numbers if you have +25% outgoing damage, are mobile, and can spread your larger opponent out over the map. The new system will reward good leadership and strategy much more than the old one.

Seems to me like if the "good leadership" is pretty equal on the two sides, the outposts STILL help out the side with the numbers. And if you start holding all the outposts and have the damage buffs, smaller forces (plus the outpost NPCs) will have a better ability to defend those outposts and keeps and hold out until some of your superior forces arrive. But yes, a well led force on the offense can have advantages over a force trying to defend lots of points. Not at all clear you'll be able to take (AND HOLD) those outposts though. Once you take your first outpost, um, are you going to split your forces and try to defend it? If not, how are you going to accumulate all 4 outposts for the +25%?

But again, hope it works out well, I'm happy to give it a try when it goes live and see...

All right, reading through this thread has been actually some fun. In order to celebrate imminent 10th page - some sort of recap. So here's the list of concerns & questions people made, some of them repeated many times already. Let's hope not anymore :P

I respectfully ignored:
- class balance stuff, including specifics of armor sets (too dependent on other dev diaries),
- reset of Audacity & seasonal mechanics (it was not a secret, happens according to older Diaries)
- bug fixing - well, duh...
- stuff I overlooked, forgot to mention, too general or too confusing

Stats & buffs

Concern: Keep bonuses seem too high, they make strong even stronger, suggested: Diminishing Returns, HoT effect, progressive bonuses

Question: What about: scaling Corruptions & Racials to 85 for creeps & some changes to Crit Magni/Rating?

Question: What does Mastery buff mean? Is it:
a)+10% to bonus derived from Mastery?
b)+10% of Mastery value?
c)+10% of effective damage/healing?

Mechanics:

Concern: Rewards from healing duties being not exactly amusing.

Suggestion: Messages about Keeps being attacked displayed in similar manner to "We just lost Noobburg, Maggot"

Suggestion: Buffless area for "classic" encounters, Candy Mountain v2

Suggestion: Restoring capture flag TR/Lug mechanics

Concern: Troll/Ranger capabilities, cost, immunities
Edit: Neeeevermind, Coming soon - RoR: Trollololo in Ettenmoors http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...81#post6303681

Suggestion: limiting stance - dance and gear switching

Geography:

Concern: location of camps in relation to rez circles

Concern: Delving :
- still not enough incentive
- too limited access if one side dominates the map
- detrimental effects of using some entrances in-combat

Question: can we have some image of new map, possibly not in Paint?

Population control:

Concern: fate of Ettenmoors during first post - release weeks with PvE Creepside being significantly reduced.

Suggestion: restoring cooldown for switching sides, possibly no CD to weaker side, rewards for switching to weaker side?

Concern: nothing about incentives for losing side to stay and fight

Concern: small servers issues, autoscaling feature?

Suggestion: more incentives for freeps & higher ranked in general, possibly old NPC rewards revamp/cleanup

Currency & rewards:

Question: any changes in cost of cosmetic skins?

Question: are Commendations going to be zeroed with RoR release?

Concern: some racial - specific LIs are missing from pool of 2nd age rewards

Question: what happens with map spots and ways to acquire them with quests removed?

Suggestion: separate Commendation pool for each side in case of no cooldown on switching

Concern: vastly superior PvP gear slipping to PvE

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

Seems to me like if the "good leadership" is pretty equal on the two sides, the outposts STILL help out the side with the numbers. And if you start holding all the outposts and have the damage buffs, smaller forces (plus the outpost NPCs) will have a better ability to defend those outposts and keeps and hold out until some of your superior forces arrive. But yes, a well led force on the offense can have advantages over a force trying to defend lots of points.

All valid points but your scenario requires the side with more numbers to move around the map some (to recapture or defend OPs). I suppose its possible that they could move in a massive zerg but I think it's more likely the split up a little and spread out, some taking the OP they just lost and some moving to defend the next presumed target. Splitting the larger force might give the smaller force a fighting chance.

Not at all clear you'll be able to take (AND HOLD) those outposts though. Once you take your first outpost, um, are you going to split your forces and try to defend it? If not, how are you going to accumulate all 4 outposts for the +25%?

Exactly the kind of decisions that make for more dynamic gameplay. Much more interesting than the decisions currently available when vastly outnumbered...such as, "should we stand here and get zerged in OC or try to ninja a useless keep/OP for 100 comms?"

Most of the changes seem like an improvement.

Moving the rez to Candy Mountain is an epic fail. There's really no reason to do this unless Turbine doesn't want people to 1v1 in this game. Reading the dev diary, he obviously knew about Candy Mountain but decided it would be a good idea to ruin the most known place to have uninterrupted (for the most part) 1v1s.

Concerning Trolls/Rangers

Costs have been reduced to 500 commendations.
They're allowed to use the waypoints that go into and out of the Delving, and the back entrances to the Keeps.
They are allowed to flip outposts.
Deaths in the session have been reduced to 1.
They are allowed to group now.
They're set to have Audacity 13.
They're now immune to power drain.
We're still looking at the power and effectiveness of them and potentially making functionality tweaks.

Speaking as a Reaver, I would like to suggest a few changes that aren't in the Dev diary.

- Change the defence buff on Dying rage please, with the unavoidable death combined with the morale gating, its utterly useless to any attacks that can't be parried. Most of the time you just get one shotted by anything with a ranged attack.
There should really be enough defence to survive 15 seconds. (Obviously not taking raid situations into account)

- Since Wrath is supposed to heal on skill hits, why doesn't this apply to AOE attacks?
You have to pass a miss/hit on every mob in the AOE range, so technically every hit is a skill hit.
Basically what I'm suggesting is to change the skill to give the player morale on every hit it does.

Originally Posted by jwbarry

Concerning Trolls/Rangers

Costs have been reduced to 500 commendations.
They're allowed to use the waypoints that go into and out of the Delving, and the back entrances to the Keeps.
They are allowed to flip outposts.
Deaths in the session have been reduced to 1.
They are allowed to group now.
They're set to have Audacity 13.
They're now immune to power drain.
We're still looking at the power and effectiveness of them and potentially making functionality tweaks.

Any chance that you could earn commendations on the session play?

One thing that’s become very apparent to us in our survey of the ‘moors is the disparity in damage and healing between Creeps and Freeps. Pound for pound, Creeps tend to get outgunned and outhealed compared to the kind of numbers Freeps can put out. We will be taking steps to bridge this gap this season. These steps might go too far, or not far enough. We will be monitoring and the pendulum will continue to swing as necessary.

Does this mean there will be regular updates (nerfs and buffs) as things progress after the expansion?

Example: In the beginning creeps of RoI creeps lacked in damage pretty significantly and thus it was boosted 20%, still low by some people's standards, but a boost none the less. Once 2nd ages, first ages, new jewelry and gear begin to become common place with freeps, the issue was never really readdressed.

With the quoted statement, does it mean you'll be making regular changes to the moors (not in 3-5 month) intervals and making more use of the monster play buff freep side?

Reaver
Impale
The Reaver unleashes a savage attack on a bloodied target.

• Melee attack that does additional damage for each of the Reaver’s bleeds on the target.
• For each of the attacker’s bleeds on the target Impale does an additional 25% damage.

Does this mean each of the bleeds from the reaver doing the Impale adds addition damage, or the sum of all reaver bleeds?

Defiler
Constant Pain
The Defiler inflicts terrible pain upon a foe. Nearby allies find the enemy's suffering so joyous, they regain morale

• Channeled attack that damages the Defiler’s target while healing the Defiler’s fellowship.

Any word on how this channel will be effected, will it be like the BAs steadfast barrage in that any damage will interrupt it, similiar to the defilers blessing of darkness, or like the wargs channeled root?


Since traits and skills seem to be getting a decent revisit, myself and many others feel the traits for fire and shadow damage (reaver, BA, warg) should be passive abilities, has this crossed the table?

With the trading in of level 75 audacity pieces, will each 10% stack for all of the audacity gear, or will it be -10% for the piece of the same name, and only that piece?

I appreciate the fact that some questions have been answered by the dev's but I have not seen an answer about whether or not the commendations are being reset to zero or not.

Can we get a dev to confirm whether or not we lose what we have now come Sept 5?

Originally Posted by Tharadin

2. Please consider refunding commendations for audacity/skills/traits to those who purchased them at the higher costs. If possible at least refund comms to the lower levels (L1-L5ish?) so they can get the basic skills they need.

I was wondering this too. Then someone above posted a reminder there is a 10K limit on comms. My R6/A7 creep has (6*6000) 36,000 comms invested. My R5/A3 creep has (6,000*2) 12,000 comms invested.

Thats 50,000 comms I would REALLY like to redistribute among my other creep/freep alts. I could even get Aud Armour for my Freep and bring her to the moors for the first time in ages.

Is there any mechanism planned for a refund or auto-adjustment? That would be SUPER.

Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien

I was wondering this too. Then someone above posted a reminder there is a 10K limit on comms. My R6/A7 creep has (6*6000) 36,000 comms invested. My R5/A3 creep has (6,000*2) 12,000 comms invested.

Thats 50,000 comms I would REALLY like to redistribute among my other creep/freep alts. I could even get Aud Armour for my Freep and bring her to the moors for the first time in ages.

Is there any mechanism planned for a refund or auto-adjustment? That would be SUPER.

I very seriously doubt that a refund will be given, in fact i don't honestly see a point.

Also, where have people gotten the idea they're resetting comms? The 10k cap is in place to keep people from stock piling them, there is pretty much no reason to reset them.

It tells me that Turbine still isn't understanding fundamental issues with the class balance.

Turbine, you have a medium armor class with squishy morale that can only do damage at melee range (point blank). What this means is as a burglar, if I am to have fun in a craid-vs-raid fight and feel like I'm contributing, I have very limited choices:

1) Near-certain Suicide by jumping into the fray.
Find Footing and Touch-and-Go are essentially useless (and have been so since Audacity was put in) to try to make up for a burgs relatively low morale and medium armor while in-range-of-everything the craid has to offer. KO only works on melee damage so BAs and spiders still kill me fast. We're there favorite targets because the healer cannot get to us fast enough, they just can't. What's worse, is if there is ANY LAG, my DPS contribution goes to zero because I can't keep up with the target I am forced to chase around while BA's and spiders continue to pound me.

Understand that fundamental to any PvP combat is LOTS OF MOVEMENT. This makes classes that are dependent on very-short-range-positional damage basically impossible to be effective with under the laggy conditions the moors are known for in 24-vs-24 fights.

2) Wait in stealth, pray to god you can maybe avoid all the AOE skills Turbine has given the creeps (warg urine, poison clouds from spiders, flies from defilers, Creep tracking skills, etc..etc..) that will pop you out of stealth and make you vulnerable only to try to find a weak creep running away to get a SS hit on.

OR

I avoid large fights and gank newbies for fun.

I've never wanted to be a rank-zero-ganker, but honestly Turbine, you're leaving burgs little choice.

All arguments about how OP burglars were before Audacity will be ignored, we're talking about the present. And right now, Turbine seems to be pushing burglars into being a gank-only class. Wargs can survive in a raid/craid fight, their morale can be double mine, and they've got sprint. Burgs have too tough of a time surviving craid/raid fights to be of any use whatsoever.

Turbine please, remove the pop-out-of-stealth feature of some of these creep skills, reduce the percent-slow that BA's and Spiders can throw out. Without tiny changes like this, burglars simply can't do anything other than die against a well-balanced craid.

Originally Posted by Jacen123

Speaking as a Reaver, I would like to suggest a few changes that aren't in the Dev diary.

- Change the defence buff on Dying rage please, with the unavoidable death combined with the morale gating, its utterly useless to any attacks that can't be parried. Most of the time you just get one shotted by anything with a ranged attack.
There should really be enough defence to survive 15 seconds. (Obviously not taking raid situations into account)

I'd be fine with this, but imo the massive run speed buff needs to be dropped. Too many reavers on our server use DR to run away, denying their opponents renown and preserving their rating. I think it should be made more inline with the Captain's last stand skill, which would better serve it's intended purpose of allowing you to take out an enemy before dying yourself, whilst making it far harder to abuse.

Originally Posted by Jerek_of_horus

It tells me that Turbine still isn't understanding fundamental issues with the class balance.

Turbine, you have a medium armor class with squishy morale that can only do damage at melee range (point blank). What this means is as a burglar, if I am to have fun in a craid-vs-raid fight and feel like I'm contributing, I have very limited choices:

1) Near-certain Suicide by jumping into the fray.
Find Footing and Touch-and-Go are essentially useless (and have been so since Audacity was put in) to try to make up for a burgs relatively low morale and medium armor while in-range-of-everything the craid has to offer. KO only works on melee damage so BAs and spiders still kill me fast. We're there favorite targets because the healer cannot get to us fast enough, they just can't. What's worse, is if there is ANY LAG, my DPS contribution goes to zero because I can't keep up with the target I am forced to chase around while BA's and spiders continue to pound me.

Understand that fundamental to any PvP combat is LOTS OF MOVEMENT. This makes classes that are dependent on very-short-range-positional damage basically impossible to be effective with under the laggy conditions the moors are known for in 24-vs-24 fights.

2) Wait in stealth, pray to god you can maybe avoid all the AOE skills Turbine has given the creeps (warg urine, poison clouds from spiders, flies from defilers, Creep tracking skills, etc..etc..) that will pop you out of stealth and make you vulnerable only to try to find a weak creep running away to get a SS hit on.

OR

I avoid large fights and gank newbies for fun.

I've never wanted to be a rank-zero-ganker, but honestly Turbine, you're leaving burgs little choice.

All arguments about how OP burglars were before Audacity will be ignored, we're talking about the present. And right now, Turbine seems to be pushing burglars into being a gank-only class. Wargs can survive in a raid/craid fight, their morale can be double mine, and they've got sprint. Burgs have too tough of a time surviving craid/raid fights to be of any use whatsoever.

Turbine please, remove the pop-out-of-stealth feature of some of these creep skills, reduce the percent-slow that BA's and Spiders can throw out. Without tiny changes like this, burglars simply can't do anything other than die against a well-balanced craid.

Creep AOE ? LOL, warg urine ? srsly ? how on earth will wargs know exactly where to pee and get you out of stealth ?
creeps' aoe is nothing compared to freep AOE, roll a warg you'll see for your self. Just stay on your side's side, that's how it usually works, stay away from visible freeps and you wont get hit by this so called creep aoe. As for tracking, anyone can get tracked, so it's useless to talk about how you're a victime if you get tracked.
And burgs can do a LOT of dmg, and like wargs are always targeted, yes wargs are most often targeted at first.
And I've seen no burg having a tough time surviving a rvr fight, on my server they usually stay in stealth, until they go attack someone and kill him with the fraid's focus fire, a stun from a burg to an attacking creep can change a lot of things.

Originally Posted by jwbarry

Concerning Trolls/Rangers

Are they still going to be as squishy as a hunter with worse DPS?

Originally Posted by Jerek_of_horus

Burgs have too tough of a time surviving craid/raid fights to be of any use whatsoever.
Turbine please, remove the pop-out-of-stealth feature of some of these creep skills, reduce the percent-slow that BA's and Spiders can throw out. Without tiny changes like this, burglars simply can't do anything other than die against a well-balanced craid.

Man i dont want to be mean but you have to find better excuses to nerf creeps...seriously
Creep AOE? reduce BA slow %? remove pop-out of stealth on creeps?what is this man...
I mean you have a burg for pvp i suppose...the burgs on my server are OP then and you are not
if they start the*gank* with trip then stun then daze between these skills immunities even with MT and the burg with evades enabled i have a really hard time to get them down cause of all the crits and dev crits i get..
Anw burgs are in a very good place atm

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...st-relic-buffs

I (and other few people) wrote some thoughts in a wrong forum. Everyone doesn't have the same suggestions there, but please please take a look and consider about them.

Originally Posted by Jerek_of_horus

It tells me that Turbine still isn't understanding fundamental issues with the class balance.

Turbine, you have a medium armor class with squishy morale that can only do damage at melee range (point blank). What this means is as a burglar, if I am to have fun in a craid-vs-raid fight and feel like I'm contributing, I have very limited choices:

1) Near-certain Suicide by jumping into the fray.
Find Footing and Touch-and-Go are essentially useless (and have been so since Audacity was put in) to try to make up for a burgs relatively low morale and medium armor while in-range-of-everything the craid has to offer. KO only works on melee damage so BAs and spiders still kill me fast. We're there favorite targets because the healer cannot get to us fast enough, they just can't. What's worse, is if there is ANY LAG, my DPS contribution goes to zero because I can't keep up with the target I am forced to chase around while BA's and spiders continue to pound me.

Understand that fundamental to any PvP combat is LOTS OF MOVEMENT. This makes classes that are dependent on very-short-range-positional damage basically impossible to be effective with under the laggy conditions the moors are known for in 24-vs-24 fights.

2) Wait in stealth, pray to god you can maybe avoid all the AOE skills Turbine has given the creeps (warg urine, poison clouds from spiders, flies from defilers, Creep tracking skills, etc..etc..) that will pop you out of stealth and make you vulnerable only to try to find a weak creep running away to get a SS hit on.

OR

I avoid large fights and gank newbies for fun.

I've never wanted to be a rank-zero-ganker, but honestly Turbine, you're leaving burgs little choice.

All arguments about how OP burglars were before Audacity will be ignored, we're talking about the present. And right now, Turbine seems to be pushing burglars into being a gank-only class. Wargs can survive in a raid/craid fight, their morale can be double mine, and they've got sprint. Burgs have too tough of a time surviving craid/raid fights to be of any use whatsoever.

Turbine please, remove the pop-out-of-stealth feature of some of these creep skills, reduce the percent-slow that BA's and Spiders can throw out. Without tiny changes like this, burglars simply can't do anything other than die against a well-balanced craid.

Not to be rude, but I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Burgs on my server are just as OP as they were before audacity as they have greater survivability than before. They are effective both in solo / small group action and in raids. My guess is that your raid leaders don't know how properly to utilize burgs - their best role in a RvR environment is to sneak behind the creep lines and wipe out their healers. If you are trying to go toe-to-toe in a RvR environment then you have nothing to complain about - that was never the intended role of a burg in a raid.

If the buffs from control points/relics are going to be so significant, which FYI I think is a very positive move towards the strategic value of the zone, one thing I would really like to see is the creation of an area (preferably the ever-popular Candy Mountain) within the Ettenmoors where the effects of these buffs do not apply. This would allow for the continuance of competitive 1v1 or structured small group fights regardless of the colour of the map.

Originally Posted by MaroonDragoon

If the buffs from control points/relics are going to be so significant, which FYI I think is a very positive move towards the strategic value of the zone, one thing I would really like to see is the creation of an area (preferably the ever-popular Candy Mountain) within the Ettenmoors where the effects of these buffs do not apply. This would allow for the continuance of competitive 1v1 or structured small group fights regardless of the colour of the map.

Yes, this would be a very positive thing, though I wonder if Turbine has the tech to support it. As-is the changes are going to make it extremely difficult to manage 1v1s except under very controlled circumstances.

Originally Posted by MaroonDragoon

If the buffs from control points/relics are going to be so significant, which FYI I think is a very positive move towards the strategic value of the zone, one thing I would really like to see is the creation of an area (preferably the ever-popular Candy Mountain) within the Ettenmoors where the effects of these buffs do not apply. This would allow for the continuance of competitive 1v1 or structured small group fights regardless of the colour of the map.

If the devs had inteneded to promote 1v1 play then they wouldn't of plopped a rez circle on top of Candy Mountain --- the message is quite clear and I couldn't be happier -- NICE JOB JW STAY THE COURSE!!!!!!

Although I wouldn't be opposed to an arena type area later down the road however; if it's true PVP small grp play your looking for then that area should come with a cost --- no commendation or infamy/renown gain from kills so the area can't be abused.

EQ2 tired an arena pvp area back during the DOF expansion and it fell on its face after about 2 weeks. Classes we're not balanced for 1v1 or small grp play which will be no different than LOTRO -- waste of time and effort IMO.

Val

Originally Posted by mmdur1

Not to be rude, but I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Burgs on my server are just as OP as they were before audacity as they have greater survivability than before. They are effective both in solo / small group action and in raids. My guess is that your raid leaders don't know how properly to utilize burgs - their best role in a RvR environment is to sneak behind the creep lines and wipe out their healers. If you are trying to go toe-to-toe in a RvR environment then you have nothing to complain about - that was never the intended role of a burg in a raid.

Wipe out healers? That's a laugh. Now you're suggesting that burgs are survivable and effective when removed from the fraid healers range entirely, and that burgs have enough DPS to kill creep healers, which is utter nonsense. As soon as a burg pops out of stealth on a defiler, the defiler starts to self-heal and run. At this point the defiler essentially has NOTHING to worry about, his health bar will remain full the entire time, meanwhile the entire craid focuses on the burg and he/she is dead nearly instantly. Warleaders are no different in this, and are even harder to make a dent in morale. The only advantage a burg has on a warleader is more possible interruptions, but you can't addle from stealth, so you're exposing yourself each time you addle a WL.

Your post is also completely self-contradictory, wherein you tell me my best role is in the rear of a craid, wiping out healers, but that I am making a mistake trying to "go toe-to-toe" in an RvR environment. Have you actually played a burg and tried to survive in the rear of a craid?

When did ifreborn1 multiply?

I think the only thing the above poster said to me which would make any sense is a nerf of the BA slow in some form (not a major nerf, but you have to see some ridiculousness in the way it's currently working).

Other than that, it's like being told that burgs do less damage than loremasters.

Originally Posted by Untg99

When did ifreborn1 multiply?

I think the only thing the above poster said to me which would make any sense is a nerf of the BA slow in some form (not a major nerf, but you have to see some ridiculousness in the way it's currently working).

Other than that, it's like being told that burgs do less damage than loremasters.

If there's any lag, they do plenty less damage than loremasters. And That is exactly what I'm talking about, a small nerf on the PERCENT SLOW for spiders AOE slow and BA's ranged slow. I'm not asking for a removal of the skill, just don't make it so impossible to stay in melee range.

Originally Posted by MaroonDragoon

If the buffs from control points/relics are going to be so significant, which FYI I think is a very positive move towards the strategic value of the zone, one thing I would really like to see is the creation of an area (preferably the ever-popular Candy Mountain) within the Ettenmoors where the effects of these buffs do not apply. This would allow for the continuance of competitive 1v1 or structured small group fights regardless of the colour of the map.

Candy Mountain has been re-assigned.

The TR rez circle is now about 100 meters north on a small hill (Candy Mountain).

• This hill has had 3 ways up added to it in addition to a bridge connecting it to the Isendeep Outpost.

http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdia...the-ettenmoors