Depends on what Age it takes place in, and as much as I want to beleve in the power of the elves I would have to put my vote on Sauron if it was the 1st or 2nd ages. Fingolfin if it took place in the 3rd.
If by win you mean "cut the ring from his hand" then I don't imagine Fingolfin, as one of the most talented and powerful swordsmen ever, would struggle too much, given how he coped with Grond for all that time.
If you're talking before the ring in his Annatar or even Mairon days then it's less clear. It also again depends on your definition of "win" I suppose, at what point can an Elf be said to have beaten a Maia?
But then again, could a hobbit and an angsty girl kill Sauron's most powerful servant?
If Fingolfin managed to injure Morgoth himself with a wound that remained forever, I believe he could defeat Sauron, or maybe they would both die from the struggle of their battle.
If Fingolfin managed to injure Morgoth himself with a wound that remained forever, I believe he could defeat Sauron, or maybe they would both die from the struggle of their battle.
This post has sparked another VS. question I have. Sauron vs. Morgoth.
Gandalf, Ecthelion, and Glorfindel all essentially fought "draws" with balrogs when confronted 1 v 1. Yes they all destroyed the particular balrog they faced, but they were also all defeated by them as well.
I would wager that Sauron is significantly more powerful than the balrogs, and would have to put my money on him in a duel with Fingolfin. Although a previous post brings up a good point, it may depend on the form that Sauron is in, the age of the world, etc.
Gandalf, Ecthelion, and Glorfindel all essentially fought "draws" with balrogs when confronted 1 v 1. Yes they all destroyed the particular balrog they faced, but they were also all defeated by them as well.
I would wager that Sauron is significantly more powerful than the balrogs, and would have to put my money on him in a duel with Fingolfin. Although a previous post brings up a good point, it may depend on the form that Sauron is in, the age of the world, etc.
Adding to your list, Feanor also held off Gothmog until another balrog attacked him from behind.
I think it is important to keep in mind that there are different kinds of "power." Tulkas defeated Morgoth in physical combat, but Morgoth is generally understood to have been the most powerful of the Valar (save perhaps Manwe depending on the circumstances). I don't believe that Sauron's power found its most complete expression in physical combat. I believe his greatest strength was in dominating the wills of others on a large scale (c.f. his armies immediately after his fall at the end of RotK). Huan defeated Sauron in a straight up fight. Huan was a dog. A very special dog to be sure, but still a dog rather than a Maia. When Sauron personally led his armies against Lindon after he destroyed Eregion, he was sent packing in shame by the relief force from Numenor. He was decisively defeated in personal combat by some combination of Elendil, Isildur, Gil-galad, Elrond and Cirdan.
On the other hand, the balrog known as Durin's Bane drove an entire city of dwarves out of their ancestral home (albeit over the course of a year). There were likely differing levels of physical prowess among the balrogs, at least to some degree.
In terms of Fingolfin v. Sauron, I think it is useful to note that Finrod (Fingolfin's nephew) engaged in a battle of song against Sauron and lost. However, Finrod seems to have held his own pretty well, and in the end it was the shadow of the Kinslaying that caused him to falter. Also, that was not a sword fight. Finrod and his companions had been disarmed and brought before Sauron. What are the parameters of the fight for purposes of the OP?
Fingolfin wounded Morgoth seven times (as I recall) before Fingolfin finally tired and stumbled. That he was able to accomplish that much is simply astonishing to me. And yet it happened. I wonder how much of Fingolfin's success can be explained by the idea that Morgoth had by that time dissipated a portion of his innate power by his efforts to dominate the world (c.f. Morgoth's Ring, in the History of Middle-earth series put out by Christopher Tolkien). When Fingolfin challenged Morgoth to single combat, Morgoth actually came forth and he did so only reluctantly. This is also astonishing. At that point in the story Morgoth knew fear (alone of all the Valar). He felt that he had to prove himself to his lieutenants or be thought a coward, and he also did seem to have some fear for his physical safety. How much of Fingolfin's success against Morgoth was the result of this spiritual weakness that Morgoth suffered from?
Did Sauron share any of that spiritual weakness? What kind of fight are we talking about? Was Fingolfin a greater warrior than Finrod? Was Fingolfin the equal of Huan? Of Gil-galad + Elendil + Isildur + Elrond? I am actually inclined to say yes on that last one. Tolkien put great emphasis on having lived in Aman and seen the light of the Two Trees.
Did Sauron share any of that spiritual weakness? What kind of fight are we talking about? Was Fingolfin a greater warrior than Finrod? Was Fingolfin the equal of Huan? Of Gil-galad + Elendil + Isildur + Elrond? I am actually inclined to say yes on that last one. Tolkien put great emphasis on having lived in Aman and seen the light of the Two Trees.
I think Sauron had less of this weakness than Melkor. He was not as isolated from the music as Melkor was and experienced more of it than Melkor did. Melkor's dissociation from the other Valar began instantly, whereas Sauron was good for quite some time.
I agree though as a physical combatant Sauron was not all that impressive, I imagine Fingolfin would best him pretty easily, given as you say his efforts against Melkor and how highly Tolkien wrote of him as a warrior. I think physical combat was the intent of the OP. As a general or commander of armies, or any spiritual or mental combat the result would be less clear and obviously dependant on the scenario.
As an aside, did Melkor not cower from Feanor's impending challenge, instead sending his Balrogs to ambush him when he was far enough ahead of his host? I though this was his reason for reluctantly accepting Fingolfin's challenge, as 2 brothers ducked in a row would have been an embarrassment.
EDIT: Couldn't +rep you Vilnas, apparently I need to share the love a bit.
Morgoth. Sauron was only a Maia, Morgoth was one of the most powerful Valar. I assume he'd just banish him from existence with a sneeze or something.
Aye. Morgoth's will was the very evil that made Sauron what he is, for Morgoth's will is evil. if Sauron turned against Morgoth, he would no longer be evil. Thus, Morgoth had a certain extent of control over Sauron's doings.
As for Fingolfin vs. Sauron, I'd place my money on Fingolfin. Even Morgoth feared Fingolfin, and he suffered multiple wounds in their epic duel. In fact, I'd expect Sauron to flee in terror of Fingolfin's wrath.
Peaceguy
"With that, I ran back to Hobbiton, Land of the Noobs" - TSK
As for Fingolfin vs. Sauron, I'd place my money on Fingolfin. Even Morgoth feared Fingolfin, and he suffered multiple wounds in their epic duel. In fact, I'd expect Sauron to flee in terror of Fingolfin's wrath.
He'd be wise to but Sauron has always struck me as having an over confident "cocky" streak. Even so though you're probably right, he'd be off for the hills.
He'd be wise to but Sauron has always struck me as having an over confident "cocky" streak. Even so though you're probably right, he'd be off for the hills.
Exactly the answer I was expecting, Morgoth was wounded by eternity by Fingolfin, Sauron of any age (Second or Third) isn't even match against this elf.
The only problem is that this directly contractics Tolkien, as Valar>Maia>Elves>Men in power scale from Silmarillion, so how can el elf beat a Maia?
Well answer is really good one, its a battle of wills, whoever has the higher will power wins. Fingolfin in this case.
Greater Vala Sneeze - Banish to void on target
Fast
Range 20m
Shadow damage equal to target's morale
Cooldown 5m
Originally Posted by Al.
Exactly the answer I was expecting, Morgoth was wounded by eternity by Fingolfin, Sauron of any age (Second or Third) isn't even match against this elf.
The only problem is that this directly contractics Tolkien, as Valar>Maia>Elves>Men in power scale from Silmarillion, so how can el elf beat a Maia?
Well answer is really good one, its a battle of wills, whoever has the higher will power wins. Fingolfin in this case.
The "power scale" you've written there isn't so well defined. Generally it is true in terms of pure power (although even then there can be overlaps) but power can manifest in different ways. A Maia could be an awful swordsman and so easily lose in a fight with a Man (or dog) in straight up 1 on 1. There's no way a man could bend the will of thousands of other men and orcs to his own though.
Plus Fingolfin was a second generation Elf born on Aman to Finwe.. he's pretty hardcore.
Exactly the answer I was expecting, Morgoth was wounded by eternity by Fingolfin, Sauron of any age (Second or Third) isn't even match against this elf.
The only problem is that this directly contractics Tolkien, as Valar>Maia>Elves>Men in power scale from Silmarillion, so how can el elf beat a Maia?
Well answer is really good one, its a battle of wills, whoever has the higher will power wins. Fingolfin in this case.
The power scale isn't quite so cut and dried. The first born were way up on the scale... the templates or 'ideals.' They were portrayed as equal to Balrogs one on one several times, despite the Balrogs being Maiar. In other words, Fingolfin was not merely 'an elf.' He was only a couple generations removed from the embodiment of elvenkind.
Although there is some suggestion that may have been revised had Tolkien kept working on it, if that had happened it would have still resulted in a dozen Saurons wandering about Middle Earth, which would likely have been tricky to write around.
The power scale isn't quite so cut and dried. The first born were way up on the scale... the templates or 'ideals.' They were portrayed as equal to Balrogs one on one several times, despite the Balrogs being Maiar. In other words, Fingolfin was not merely 'an elf.' He was only a couple generations removed from the embodiment of elvenkind.
Although there is some suggestion that may have been revised had Tolkien kept working on it, if that had happened it would have still resulted in a dozen Saurons wandering about Middle Earth, which would likely have been tricky to write around.
The point is not every elf or man is on equal footing with Maias or Valar, just few cases but the norm in Tolkien works is that:
Valar>Maia>Elves>Men
Even though some exceptions in the rule, that usually goes, so that makes even more impressive what Fingolfin or Feanor can do like Killing balrogs, Harming Valar, etc.
1. Shapeshifting: Whatever Sauron would've become, be it the greatest Werewolf or a giant bat, Fingolfin would've beat him in physical combat any day. How do I know that? Fingolfin gave Morgoth a hard time.
2. Dominating lesser minds, or sorcery of words (like Saruman): Fingolfin did definitely not have a mind which could've been controlled by Sauron. Sauron would've failed to instill fear into Fingolfin's mind too... I mean, this Elf went solo to Angband and challenged Morgoth. And everyone fled from his wrath, mistaking him to be Orome. Sauron would've been the one who would've fled in the duel.
Even with the One Ring, I still think Fingolfin would've beat Sauron. Elendil and Gil-galad together beat Sauron (Elrond, Isildur and Cirdan just "beheld" the fight iirc), but died themselves. Fingolfin was superior in combat to Gil-Galad and Elendil by far, and everything evil feared him.
Vala>Maia>Elf>Man
This is mostly incorrect.
Valar are superior to Maiar, that is true.
Maiar are not always superior to Elves. Ecthelion and Gothmog slew each other, and Gothmog was one of the most powerful Maiar. Glorfindel and a Balrog slew each other too.
It's wrong to say Elves are superior to Men. Hurin, the greatest warrior of Men to ever live, was better in combat than most Elves. Though Elves do live longer and have more time to get experience in battle, there are many Men who were better than most Elves in combat.
(BTW, Turin Turambar, a Man, will be the one to slay Morgoth in Dagor Dagorath. That's a pretty huge contradiction of that power scale.)
Last edited by Haunt123; Jul 21 2012 at 02:35 AM.
Peaceguy
"With that, I ran back to Hobbiton, Land of the Noobs" - TSK
EDIT: Couldn't +rep you Vilnas, apparently I need to share the love a bit.
Thank you for the kind words. I have greatly appreciated your posts as well. I owe you a response in the Feanor thread. I have been busy with work and family, but do want to reply to your thoughtful posts there when I am able.
The point is not every elf or man is on equal footing with Maias or Valar, just few cases but the norm in Tolkien works is that:
Valar>Maia>Elves>Men
Even though some exceptions in the rule, that usually goes, so that makes even more impressive what Fingolfin or Feanor can do like Killing balrogs, Harming Valar, etc.
I agree with all of that. Fingolfin (and indeed most of the early generations of each of the races) were examples of exceptions. The way I like to think of it is that the major races were each created with the collective power of a Valar, and as populations rise, that power is diffused among more and more members. In the case of the Elves, since they were not so easily able to replace battle losses, their collective power has declined over time.
(BTW, Turin Turambar, a Man, will be the one to slay Morgoth in Dagor Dagorath. That's a pretty huge contradiction of that power scale.)
I think this is supposed to signify the fate of man as eventual "rulers" of the world. Sort of passing the baton if you will from Valar, through Elves and finally Man to deal with the embodiment of evil at the end.
I agree with the rest of your post, assuming a fight with swords/claws/teeth, Fingolfin wins every time.
I think this is supposed to signify the fate of man as eventual "rulers" of the world. Sort of passing the baton if you will from Valar, through Elves and finally Man to deal with the embodiment of evil at the end.
Actually, it was Elves and Men together who overthrew evil at the end if the First Age (No, not the Valar. The host of the Valar overthrew Morgoth, which comprised mainly of the Vanyar and Noldor of Aman, the remaining Noldor of M-E, and the Edain). So Men already had their shot at beating Morgoth
Also, no one knows if Men will be the rulers of the world post-Dagor Dagorath. It has not come to pass yet.
Peaceguy
"With that, I ran back to Hobbiton, Land of the Noobs" - TSK
At least some of the Maiar of Valinor also participated. We know that Eonwe came as the herald of Manwe, and that Manwe himself did not come. As for the Valar, I generally agree with Haunt. I don't believe it is explicitly stated that none of the other Valar came, but I think we can safely infer that they did not. The paragraphs in the Silmarillion that touch on what happened to Sauron after the War of Wrath state that Eonwe felt that he did not have the authority to pass judgment on one of his own order (i.e., another Maia), and consequently he ordered Sauron to go to Valinor to be tried. I believe that if a Vala had been present this incident would have been reported differently.
I still struggle to come to terms with why the Valar did not intervene sooner and more directly.
I still struggle to come to terms with why the Valar did not intervene sooner and more directly.
The Valar did not intervene directly, as they were well aware of their own destructive capability (Heck, even indirectly they caused a continent to sink).
The Valar did not intervene directly, as they were well aware of their own destructive capability (Heck, even indirectly they caused a continent to sink).
Yep I used to be an essayist too you know, but lost track of my posts in the LOTRO forums long ago.
I used to debate Magic in LOTR, with Footsie she claimed magic wasn't really used in Tolkien while I claimed inverse and all of the sudden we had all of this theme coming out like the Valar, Feanor, etc. its awesome when a subject can lead into other answers.
I think if Sauron did not have the ring, he'd lose for sure, but he might have a chance if he had it. Gil-galad and Elendil were pretty epic in their own right, and they could only just defeat Sauron. But I doubt Sauron would fight Fingolfin if he could find any way of weaseling out of it.
I was looking through unfinished tales last night and in the Celeborn and Galadriel section it says that Celebrimbor withstood single combat with Sauron at Ost in Edhel and he was grappled into submission by weight of numbers similar to Hurins last stand, this probably puts Celebrimbor in as the dark horse, in the current round of middle earth grudge match posts that have recently been apearing.
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