Thread: Mounted combat - the more I hear, the less I think I'll enjoy

After reading the new page on mounted comat mechanics, especially the "Fury" part, I'm starting to worry this won't be anything for me. ( http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/2222-r...mounted-combat )

Damage that is based on the speed at which you are moving seems to be going so far in the opposite direction of why I'm playing a fantasy MMO instead of a fast paced FPS.

Don't know about others, but I'd been picturing players / mobs coming together at speed, with that speed being taken into account for initial damage (possibly tied to a high damage, long cooldown skill), and then combat going into a moving, swirling brawl of combat. Given that it's also stated that healing range will involve players having to stay in groups, I can't quite get my head around how this will work if we are all charging around at breakneck speed, unless we all end up on /follow to a tank so we stay together whilst doing our stuff - and this sure wouldn't be at all my idea of being in control of a horse.

If the "fury" is in the form of a "power" bar that we fill by moving across landscape at speed so that we can then execute mounted combat skills, or execute them at a higher potential, I guess that might work, so long as it doesn't drain away too rapidly once your engaged with a mob.

If the whole thing turns out to be a high-speed twitch skill on impact scenario, hope there's plenty else in the expac for me to do, as I won't be there for that. (which is what the bottom of the page implies to me)

Lifer, with RoR expansion already purchased (as I so want this game to keep going), but worry about the direction it may take in the future. Hoping that this doesn't look like a whine on something I haven't even seen yet, but more putting it out there as a feeler for what other's are expecting / hoping mounted combat is going to be like.

What say you?

I agree -- it feels to me like a FPS video game. I hope I'm wrong, because if that's the case I guess I will finally be done in Middle Earth, because that's not the type of game play I come here for. It sounds like it's pretty much mandatory to do mounted combat to continue forward in the game.

I also doubt the viability of the entire mechanic given the persistent lag issues -- that's going to be even more irritating in high-speed combat.

I tend to agree with you - if your assumptions are correct. But honestly we will just have to wait and see and test drive it ourselves.

If it is a twitch fest as you suggest then I hope it is at least confined to Rohan.

I think there may be a parallel with Turbine and a quirky world environment and combat mechanic, that sounds cool until you do it, and that is with DDO and an area in that game known as The Red Fens, where you fight and quest underwater. Your characters are in a kind of bubble that you use the W,A,S,D keys to move and you gain momentum as you move along the underwater area and fight "Sea-people" - it really is kind of lame and thankfully it is contained to that one area.

Now watch DDO players come out of the wood work to defend that aspect of the game - and that's ok - I'm sure even if the Rohan mounted combat bites there will be a certain amount of people that will enjoy it.

I just hope I'm one of them - and that if it isnt a universally accepted system that ALL players of different skills and physical abilities can enjoy - then it is contained like Red Fens and the Ettenmoors.

D

It being more FPS-like will probably not be so.
If anything I can imagine from the scraps of info,
it'll be more like a turn-based RPG, like the old FF's
using 1 skill to load up whatever you want to do
and let the computer then calculate what happens.
So you'll manually line up for the perfect run,
then give the horse the order to carry it out...
but this is just the way *I* imagine it will be,
so don't hold it against me if I'm wrong :P

remember in the book/movie when it reached this point. the only ones that wanted to take part in this fight was the worg-riders. the humans didnt want to fight this fight and they were the horselords.the elf didnt want to fight here, niether did the dwarf. I'm in with the human/elf/dwarf camp on this one,I don't really want this fight either. It seems more creep minded than pve. My 2 cents is it will be partially unplayable due to the lag.

Well, having just watched the live streaming from the Beta Test over at MMORPG, ( http://www.twitch.tv/mmorpgcom/b/325403194 ) I'm feeling a *little* less anxious - albeit that they only were having Hunters in use atm, and when he did go for melee attacks they did seem to miss more than hit, so it was probably being presented in it's best possible light.

From what was seen there does seem to be a fair bit other to do other than mounted combat, but pretty much all the combat shown was done mounted, so not sure if/how much combat will be available if your not mounted. There's going to be a definate learning curve to riding a mount which has a lot more real physics involved, no insta stop and right angle turns, momentum and inertia look to be on a par with an "average" car driving game.

The "Fury" bar as shown in the stream is very much movement driven, and drops off very quickly if you stop, so combat was definately on the go for the Hunter, and I can see now why we got a lock camera on target option. This also means to me that mount skills like back-kicking don't look like they will be used a lot, and I didn't see them used at any time during combat shown during the live streaming.

As stated by others, guess we will have to just wait and see.

I think what bugged me most about the stream was that the person being shown around didn't seem to know much about LotRO - saying stuff like "Oh, we picked up a puncture shield" like that was something neat, and oohing when a 3rd age legendary weapon dropped. Gives the impression that they don't want relevant / difficult questions asked to me.

Originally Posted by EvAmy

It being more FPS-like will probably not be so.
If anything I can imagine from the scraps of info,
it'll be more like a turn-based RPG, like the old FF's
using 1 skill to load up whatever you want to do
and let the computer then calculate what happens.
So you'll manually line up for the perfect run,
then give the horse the order to carry it out...
but this is just the way *I* imagine it will be,
so don't hold it against me if I'm wrong :P

The stream from MMOPRG definately shows it to be a large step towards FPS style game play, at least on the Hunter shown, picking out a target and then circle strafing around it to whittle down. Don't know if it was level / skill related but often saw target not in line of sight messages, and didn't see any back over the shoulder type firing skills. Absolutely no form of turn based play seen.

Given that they stated movement is needed for large damage numbers, and unsure if this applies to both players and mobs, it may yet means tanks can go crashing in at speed for a large initial agro build, then hold stuff relatively steady so that both their and the mob's damage drop and the rest of a group can circle strafe firing skills to take them down quickly. Tank is going to need some solid agro skills if its inteded to work this way.

Was stated categorically that pet classes will not have pets for mounted combat, instead focusing on their "other" skills.

One thing that was mentioned in a previous video is that players will be able to queue up some mounted skills so that they fire off when the player comes in range of the target. This is slightly more akin to the turn-based combat you desire, although it still requires movement and positioning.

The days of standing in one spot and hacking a target down (then moving to the next spot and repeating) are over.

Some players aren't going to like this expansion just like some did not like Moria. It's just a fact. It's still much better than another Isengard, or the same old. Might as well give it a chance. Aaron said in the livestream that it's something you might not like at first, but once you get used to playing it, it becomes more fun.

After seeing all the videos and previews in the different sites, I have evolved from a really suspicious stance to really looking forward to mounted combat.
My biggest fears seem to have been proved unfounded.

At the beginning I thought Turbine would have gone to the lamest kind of mounted combat imaginable, and that is, just the same old stand still and click skill buttons, only with horsepants.
I thought so because the other kind of mounted combat, like the one you experience in games like Mount and Blade, requires precision when hitting with your weapon or trample an enemy, and that is something that becomes impossible within the technological boundaries of an MMO: lag.

I'm happily surprised that they went to a middle ground.
As it seems to me, even when you can manually control the speed and direction of the horse, it actually behaves a little bit like a newtonian space combat system. Once you select a target, and start queuing skills for attacks, your horse "orbits" your target into a collision trajectory. All of that is done automatically and the player can just play as in the rest of the game on foot (looking around for combat awareness and selecting the next skills).
In the moment of the collision between you and your enemy, the game releases the queued skills, deals the dame somehow multiplied by the momentum you had, and decreases the momentum a little bit.
To avoid skill spamming, you have to wait a bit until your regain speed before issuing the next "orbit and collision", or otherwise you will have too little momentum and your skills will deal much less damage on next hit. I guess ranged skills have a normal cooldown instead.

I don't think the game requires us to continuosly "drive" our horse and have any timing for clicking on the skill icons. Only when we are travelling around, we would need to actually turn left or right, or if we want to reposition ourselves manually in mid of combat.

If it works like this, the combat system is essentially unchanged. You select an enemy, you click skills, they eventually hit, repeat. The only things that changes is that your avatar and the enemies aren't graphically standing still, but moving around, and that you can hit your enemy not continuously, but every few seconds, when you collide during this "orbital dancing" (these fewer hits being balanced with the fact that the longer you are not hitting, the more momentum you gain, and the more momentum you have, the harder the next hit will be).

An observation on the hunter comment above, the hunter to my mind is a horse archer when mounted, there are hoards (forgive the mongol reference) of approaches taken to this in history, but all emphasise move while shooting, not shoot and scoot like with modern arms/shooter games.

The one thing I would expect a hunter to do is approach somewhat and circle straife - that is act as a skirmisher, check out how the huns, parthians and others did this, so this i see as a plus.

For mounted weapon users, then the faster u go the higher damage but higher miss chance is what i would expect - this to me raises the interesting prospect of moving slower and getting more skills off while being hit more.

I have two mains, one a champ is praciticing hitting just to the side (got to watch out for my horses neck) the other a cappie is in two minds about it: -
As a standard user do i run in first nd plant it, or can i fix it to the horse either way a range increase will be necessary
As a halberd user (on principle) i shouldn't be able to use this on horseback, but at the same time, I avoid S&B unless tanking which i am interested to see how that is done on horseback.


Either way i am looking forward to it and have my fingers crossed.

"Know Your Roles
The class roles you use today continue, but with a combination of Disciplines and War-steed those roles can be expanded. A Guardian, Warden, or Champion may still be the best at tanking when riding a Heavy War-steed; however, there exists a real possibility for a Lore-master, Rune-keeper, or Hunter to serve as tank—with the correct Discipline, Steed and Advancement Path. The important thing to remember is the strengths and weaknesses of your War-steed and class. "

From http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/2222-r...mounted-combat

So basically every class has the potential to tank apart from burgs and mini's, from reading descriptions for the mini stuff it looks like their dps days are being reduced as well. And if it's based on the current class setups how are the other light armour users and (squishy in melee) hunters being given the chance to tank?

If you don't like Mounted Combat, that's completely okay.

I, on the other hand, won't feel like I'm not in Middle-Earth because I am fighting horseback. The Rohirrim did it, and so did most of the peoples of Middle-Earth, ever since the Noldor introduced it when they landed in Middle-Earth.

If Mounted Combat was slow, and if I were standing in one spot (but on a mount) and hitting the mob, I would have quit the game because mounted combat would've been an amusing failure, and this game would've not seemed like Middle-Earth.

From http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/2222-r...mounted-combat

Lore-master
Focuses heavily on ranged damage, a very small amount on melee damage, strengthening and healing allies, weakening enemies, and controlling the enemy.

Enduring Embers: Using your knowledge of fire and all that burns, you heave handfuls of embers at your target. They burn hotter and longer and increase with each application. Deals a minor amount of damage initially and increases damage over the duration of the effect.

Can stack up to 3 times.

So, the much-derided 'hate' for mounted combat when the Massively article made mounted combat sound like largely melee oriented with nothing at all to do with a pet-using Lore-Master turns out to be correct: no mention of pets AT ALL, just a higher-damage fireball skill.

/golfclap

Originally Posted by Kraggy_Eldar

From http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/2222-r...mounted-combat

So, the much-derided 'hate' for mounted combat when the Massively article made mounted combat sound like largely melee oriented with nothing at all to do with a pet-using Lore-Master turns out to be correct: no mention of pets AT ALL, just a higher-damage fireball skill.

/golfclap

In the livestream last night, they confirmed that LM pets and Captain Heralds will not be part of mounted combat.

Originally Posted by Moneydie

"Know Your Roles
The class roles you use today continue, but with a combination of Disciplines and War-steed those roles can be expanded. A Guardian, Warden, or Champion may still be the best at tanking when riding a Heavy War-steed; however, there exists a real possibility for a Lore-master, Rune-keeper, or Hunter to serve as tank—with the correct Discipline, Steed and Advancement Path. The important thing to remember is the strengths and weaknesses of your War-steed and class. "

From http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/2222-r...mounted-combat

So basically every class has the potential to tank apart from burgs and mini's, from reading descriptions for the mini stuff it looks like their dps days are being reduced as well. And if it's based on the current class setups how are the other light armour users and (squishy in melee) hunters being given the chance to tank?

I don't think this is saying that Burgs and Minis can't tank on a heavy horse. It was just giving some examples of traditional non-tanking classes having some tanking ability on a properly set up heavy horse.

The examples in this link are specific class abilities and how they are altered depending on the stance (discipline) that you are in. There will be additional skills each class gets.

Sounds like it'll be good, though naturally you can't please 100% of people ... one thing however..

If the current lag situation persists, it's gonna accentuate (the higher something's speed the more you feel lag) to the point of killing this game altogether.

Reserving judgement until I actually have hands on. Honestly it looks fun, new and different.

Although releasing Rohan without some kind of mounted combat would have led to billions of threads titled " So Rohan is here and we have no mounted combat yet?", and "RoR is RoI v2?", and perhaps even "Is Turbine afraid to try new things?".

Better to innovate and take chances and possibly fail, than to stagnate while listening to those who are terrified of change (that's not directed at anyone here btw )

Originally Posted by Dwarendele

Now watch DDO players come out of the wood work to defend that aspect of the game - and that's ok - I'm sure even if the Rohan mounted combat bites there will be a certain amount of people that will enjoy it.

DDO player here Red Fens was ok. It wasn't the greatest thing since Tomb of Horrors

*back to the woodwork*

Yes, I think we can safely say that some people will hate mounted combat. I dont think any game feature pleases everyone, you can just try to reach a «decent» %.

Will mounted combat reach that %? I have no idea.

Originally Posted by danno8

Reserving judgement until I actually have hands on. Honestly it looks fun, new and different.

Although releasing Rohan without some kind of mounted combat would have led to billions of threads titled " So Rohan is here and we have no mounted combat yet?", and "RoR is RoI v2?", and perhaps even "Is Turbine afraid to try new things?".

Better to innovate and take chances and possibly fail, than to stagnate while listening to those who are terrified of change (that's not directed at anyone here btw )

This

If Turbine can pull mounted combat off (it certainly LOOKS fun), then it's yet another feature that LoTRO has and its competition doesn't. No MMO I've ever played had any kind of FUN mounted combat system. So I'm hoping that Turbine is the first developer to do it right. A Lord of the Rings game certainly deserves it.

I might not like it either (hard to say til you actually try it), but I'm eager to try something new regardless. :P

You probably won't have to deal with the speed. You could go slow and do less damage, but you'll still probably be able to do damage (unless it's like fervour and you need a certain amount).

I'm not gonna worry about it. As much as I love this game, and anyone that knows me is aware of how much of a fanboy I am, the fact is it's just a game.

If I don't enjoy it I'll just play some Skyrim, or Fallout 3, or Rome Total War or......you get the picture!

So if mounted combat is speed based, what happens when my hunter starts using his traps? My Lore Master her Blinding Flash or Earthquake? And what happens to my Warden's HoTs gambits? Or even a Guardian's Block, Parry and Retaliate skills? Burglar's Stealth and Tricks? Or even Champion's AoE skills? Are Turbine basically abandoning skills for all characters that have been primary skills since forever and which those characters' play styles have been built around?

The more I see about RoR, the more I wonder if they shouldn't have admitted that our present characters won't be able to play as Horse Lords and just offered the chance to play a different character for this region only, select from a list of pre-rolled characters perhaps. Because I can see that none of my characters will be able to use the skills that they have been built around and rely heavily on. Far from making me look forward in anticipation to using my characters in RoR, I am starting to view it as a completely different game, one which I would have had no interest in downloading or playing if had been a seperate MMO.

The question I asked myself is, "If I could import my character into 'Mount & Blade' to play it there, would I do it?" The answer I realized was NO, because it wouldn't be my character using the skills I like and playing how I want to play. It would be some sort of hybrid playing a different type of game in a completely different style of play. That was when I realized that I would be giving RoR a miss, thank you Turbine, but no thanks, not for me.

So when you develop your next expansion after RoR, could you please include a way to fast travel past RoR completely please, thank you.

Originally Posted by podgie_bear

So if mounted combat is speed based, what happens when my hunter starts using his traps? My Lore Master her Blinding Flash or Earthquake? And what happens to my Warden's HoTs gambits? Or even a Guardian's Block, Parry and Retaliate skills? Burglar's Stealth and Tricks? Or even Champion's AoE skills? Are Turbine basically abandoning skills for all characters that have been primary skills since forever and which those characters' play styles have been built around?

Each class will have different skills to use in mounted combat. Some of their existing skills will still be available, or a new version of them but others won't be. You hunter won't be able to set a trap from horseback. Your LM and Captain won't have pets while mounted. Your Burglar won't be stealthed. The roles you have now will be (basically) the same (dps, heals, cc, debuff, buff, etc) but the tools (skills) you use will be different.

Originally Posted by PerinStone

Each class will have different skills to use in mounted combat. Some of their existing skills will still be available, or a new version of them but others won't be. You hunter won't be able to set a trap from horseback. Your LM and Captain won't have pets while mounted. Your Burglar won't be stealthed. The roles you have now will be (basically) the same (dps, heals, cc, debuff, buff, etc) but the tools (skills) you use will be different.

Yes we know that and keep being told that, but the title of this thread is;

"Mounted combat - the more I hear, the less I think I'll enjoy"

And that is what I am posting to, I don't need to be told over and over that there will be all new skills and a new way of playing for my characters. I am answering the thread with the reasons I don't think I will enjoy mounted combat!

Originally Posted by Eriandor

This also means to me that mount skills like back-kicking don't look like they will be used a lot, and I didn't see them used at any time during combat shown during the live streaming.

I think they are dropping at least some of the mount-sourced attacks like biting and kicking due to the poor way the timing and animations were lining up.

Originally Posted by Roberto_the_First

DDO player here Red Fens was ok. It wasn't the greatest thing since Tomb of Horrors *back to the woodwork*

I liked the Fens and the underwater bubble movement was a lot easier to handle than I expected.

Originally Posted by podgie_bear

Yes we know that and keep being told that, but the title of this thread is;

"Mounted combat - the more I hear, the less I think I'll enjoy"

And that is what I am posting to, I don't need to be told over and over that there will be all new skills and a new way of playing for my characters. I am answering the thread with the reasons I don't think I will enjoy mounted combat!

Thats sad for you.
But the % of unhappy customers if RoR didnt come with Mounted combat would probably be higher than the % of customers unhappy because RoR comes with mounted combat.

Thats why they are doing it, like it or not.

I am dreading the mounted combat, not because i fear and detest change (which I do), but because, as time has proved, I am just too danged clumsy to pull it off! I am one of those fools that are constantly falling off cliffs, bridges, and over-running the target. I choose ranged characters mainly because i don't have to run up to them (and then past them) in order to do damage. So now they want me to get on a horse and run at breakneck speed that I might (might) do some damage to a foe who is probably a lot more fluid than I. I am afraid I will become the comic relief.

Cantabrian Circles and cavalry charges. Yup, very FPS-like.

Originally Posted by podgie_bear

I am answering the thread with the reasons I don't think I will enjoy mounted combat!

Set up your preconceptions firmly now, so that you'll be guaranteed to hate it when it comes out even if it accidentally turns out to be fun.

Originally Posted by Lohi

Set up your preconceptions firmly now, so that you'll be guaranteed to hate it when it comes out even if it accidentally turns out to be fun.

Now excuse me if I have got the completely wrong idea here, but I was under the impression that a 'forum' was a place to air peoples views and to give them the ability to respond to the thread that had been posted. No-one told me that I was only allowed to agree whole heartedly with whatever Turbine decides to do and whatever YOU decide I am allowed to enjoy. That makes me so sorry that my obviously warped and deviant inclination to take my time when playing and enjoy playing things that don't rely on speed and fast reactions. Unfortunately having arthritic hands and not being as dextrous as the average teenager, I have allowed my perverse inclination to play in a more careful style and at a more relaxed pace to colour my whole gaming experience.

Oh dear! Should I go and hang my worthless carcass on a tree at the border of Rohan as a warning to others who might dare to question whether they want to play cavalry? Would that be a suitable penance for my offending your delicate sensibilities? Or should I just say,"You are not the only one allowed to have views on what they want to play or not play, so take your prejudices elsewhere as I don't really care what you think!" If I wanted to play a fast paced, exciting game I would not be playing a KoA Lore Master.

Originally Posted by podgie_bear

so take your prejudices elsewhere

Ironic use of the word prejudice which means to pre-judge something. A bit like what you are doing with mounted combat wouldn't you say?

I don't like the look of mounted combat at all. I don't like the constant need to run around in circles to fight, or chase after a mob. Even on foot, chasing mobs on a champ is irritating. I don't like that classes have severely had their differences and basic style removed. Burgs can't stealth on a horse, captains and LMs can't use pets, all existing skills aren't used and only a really generic skill bar is put in place instead. It really doesn't make much sense. For 75 levels you build a comfortable rotation. For the last 10 levels, all of that is thrown aside for jousting.

When they said mounted combat, I was honestly expecting it to be like combat on foot, just on a mount. Pretty much like getting a permanent speed boost, unless you were dismounted by a mob. I didn't expect this jousting style, which I don't find fun at all.

Wouldn't have been too bad if it was avoidable like Skirmishes (apart from the forced ones, which was a silly move) but from what's been said it looks like mounted combat is a major part of this expansion. Reason enough to not bother with it without all the other reasons too.

I plan to simply ignore it like I ignore skirmishes, session play, pvmp and landscape solders. My only hope is that they don't tie it to the epic quest line like they did with mirkwood skirmishes. Or have it turn up in raid instances.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

When they said mounted combat, I was honestly expecting it to be like combat on foot, just on a mount.

So when I play my burglar, I Share-the-Fun and my mount is stealthed... We sneak up on a mob and my horse crits a bite from behind, I hit Touch-n-Go and my horse dances back and forth, I hit Counter-Defense and my horse kicks the mob and I go up my crit chain? Sorry, I just don't get exactly how this works as mounted combat... You want to do the same combat, except with a giant horse under you?

Originally Posted by spiritintelligencia

So when I play my burglar, I Share-the-Fun and my mount is stealthed... We sneak up on a mob and my horse crits a bite from behind, I hit Touch-n-Go and my horse dances back and forth, I hit Counter-Defense and my horse kicks the mob and I go up my crit chain? Sorry, I just don't get exactly how this works as mounted combat... You want to do the same combat, except with a giant horse under you?

Yes, the same just with a horse under you. So stealthing and all the rest of it just on a horse. No horse skills, so the horse wouldn't move around when using T&G. No horse kicking people on skills. No horse biting people. All skills would still be from players.

I know people seem to think that stealthing a horse is ridiculous but they seem to forget that an entire person becomes invisible when a burg stealths. We aren't exactly dealing with a world of accurate depictions here.

Originally Posted by Bhoris_they_spider

Ironic use of the word prejudice which means to pre-judge something. A bit like what you are doing with mounted combat wouldn't you say?

No, I am not prejudging, whether it will be good or bad, I am saying that it is not what I want to do. Why do so many people insist that anyone who doesn't want to play cavalry are prejudiced, moaning or miseries? I am getting sick and fed up of the trolls on here and they ARE trolls who continue to shout down, moan at, denigrate or otherwise 'have a go at' anyone who doesn't automatically love what THEY want to do and allow no other view points to be even mentioned!

If you all want to play horsemen then go ahead, but stop belittling anyone else who is not interested. For God's sake grow up and leave others play how they want, they aren't hurting you and if they don't want fight from horseback, how is that going to affect your gaming?

Originally Posted by podgie_bear

... and if they don't want fight from horseback, how is that going to affect your gaming?

I agree with what you're saying but I will just have to point out this part. There are two ways it affects them.

One is that if less and less people like mounted combat, Turbine would find less and less of a reason to add the Store to it and so would see less of a reason to keep mounted combat in later updates. This would mean those who do like mounted combat will suffer because those that don't want it are the majority (entirely hypothetical).

A second is that people who do want mounted combat may be very impressionable. When they read these forums and see people who don't like the concept, it may make them start to doubt their own opinion of it. Sometimes people can become agitated to find that the opinions of others have affected them and so it can add a little doubt to their enjoyment. When they do eventually play, they remember the person who didn't like it and what they said, which can result in their own displeasure at mounted combat (again, entirely hypothetical).

Or it might even be people think opinions of people will change the world and that it's their solemn duty to argue against it to prevent such a global event.