Thread: The OP Guard

There are a lot of threads here about OP guards and how they aren't powerful enough with their relatively low DPS.

NO &&&& SHERLOCK!

Listen you whining bunch of sods. Guards aren't about DPS, guards are slow and steady wins the race. I've had a guard at cap since SoA, not my main by a longshot, but a class I do enjoy playing from time to time. OP was put into the game for 2 reasons that I can see, and 2 reasons ONLY. The first, is so that we can solo and level up without it taking a lifetime to gain a level. The second, so that we can do some damage in PvMP as the role of 'tank' is a little lost (kinda hard to pick up player aggro...). I wish sometimes that OP wasn't around and some of you new people had to try leveling a guard without it, let me tell you, that was like pulling teeth (the only thing worse was the original LM whose damage didn't scale after level 30).

Guards are not meant to be top tier DPS, we get +5 morale per vit because we are meant to be out front taking the hits, not standing back with the minstrel dishing out damage. By the very nature of donning heavy armour and a shield, you can assume lower DPS, you are more protected from harm, but you move slower and swing slower. What? Just because you drop the shield once and a while you think you can all of a sudden become a champion?

As for the moors, are you kidding me? Tanks in a raid have free reign over the battlefield, I've been on creep and had to yell at my damn raid because they kept targeting either the Guard or Warden instead of the squishies that were doing all the damage/healing. A guard with a healer (standing far enough back or under shield wall) is nearly impervious to harm. They can run in, do some, not great, but some damage, and then leave the field with more then 3/4 of their health.

whoa who pissed in your cheerios.

Minstrels are a healing class, they are not meant to dps, they have a very viable and competitive dps spec.

Champions are a dps class, they are not meant to tank, they have a very viable and competitive tanking spec.

Lore-masters are a support class, they are not meant to dps, they have a very viable and competitive dps spec.

Burglars are a support class, they are not meant to dps, they have a very viable and competitive dps spec.

Wardens are a tanking class, they are not meant to dps, they have a very viable and competitive dps spec.

Captains are a support class, they are not meant to dps, they have a very viable and competitive dps spec.

Hunters are a dps class, they are not meant to offer support, they have a very useful CC spec when it comes to CCing trash pulls.

Rune-keepers are just rediculous. They can main heal and main dps. Way too overpowered, their healing should be nerfed by about 50%.



Your logic is flawed. Secondary roles are a large part of this game. Most classes are very competent at their secondary role. Guardians are not. This needs to change

I can feel your anger... it gives you focus, it makes you stronger!

You really need it. Let be overwhelmed by your anger ^^

While I agree with your sentiments, I don't think the way you went about saying them was appropriate.

i was hoping this would be an OP guardian guide.

p.s. how to shield wall in overpower? (/troll)

Originally Posted by usernamealreadyinuse

Minstrels are a healing class, they are not meant to dps, they have a very viable and competitive dps spec.

Minstrels are capable of some nice burst DPS, however, a minnie dpsing even in a 3 man will be out of power more often then not. Should we give them lower power costs and increased regen so they can sustain it?

Originally Posted by usernamealreadyinuse

Champions are a dps class, they are not meant to tank, they have a very viable and competitive tanking spec.

Viable and competitive for what? Foundry? Lets see a champ tank Saruman, even T1, and not just the Shadow guy. Even roots T2 champs would have a heck of a time tanking, better have a really good healer.

Originally Posted by usernamealreadyinuse

Lore-masters are a support class, they are not meant to dps, they have a very viable and competitive dps spec.

Loremasters are viable as a DPS class only in cases where AOEs are useful. Otherwise their single target DPS isn't that great, and the fact that 90% of their skills are inductions also hurts them as a viable DPS.

Originally Posted by usernamealreadyinuse

Burglars are a support class, they are not meant to dps, they have a very viable and competitive dps spec.

Okay, so Burgs have gotten a DPS boost lately, thats a direct result of OD where the burg was utterly useless. The burg of all the other 'support' classes here also has the fewest support skills, so their DPS should adjusted upwards a tad in comparison to the LM or Cappy.

Originally Posted by usernamealreadyinuse

Wardens are a tanking class, they are not meant to dps, they have a very viable and competitive dps spec.

The highest I can see for a warden parse is about 1.1-1.3k DPS full DPS spec with good gear. My guard is no-where near being maxed out, but I can still parse 800-900 DPS. Considering I could drop another 6-800 into my might with some extra work, 1.1k would easily be attainable.

Originally Posted by usernamealreadyinuse

Captains are a support class, they are not meant to dps, they have a very viable and competitive dps spec.

Wait, what?!?!? Cappy DPS consists of dropping Sword Brother and spamming To Arms on a hunter.

Originally Posted by usernamealreadyinuse

Hunters are a dps class, they are not meant to offer support, they have a very useful CC spec when it comes to CCing trash pulls.

Two of the 4 CCs that hunters have are legendary traits, their CC is useful only on the original pull. After that, their usefullness takes a HUGE downturn in the CC market.

Originally Posted by usernamealreadyinuse

Rune-keepers are just rediculous. They can main heal and main dps. Way too overpowered, their healing should be nerfed by about 50%.

But they tank like balsa board, and can do one or the other without taking the time to switch over. Regardless of traits, this is the only class that can't really do both roles (at least to some degree) without taking the time to drop attunement and build up the other way.

Originally Posted by usernamealreadyinuse

Your logic is flawed. Secondary roles are a large part of this game. Most classes are very competent at their secondary role. Guardians are not. This needs to change

Secondary roles are just that, secondary, and that's the point. Reading the PvMP forums, there are already complaints about guard DPS being too high. Guard OP DPS is just about right, maybe even a tad too high in my opinion.

My take on this is that the damage output is fine as it is - if you trait entirely for OP. This is my main problem with it. I'm forced to play one style (ie. 2 handed weapons), AND forced to use only specific traits. I would have preferred that the stance be less reliant on having only redline traits.

Originally Posted by Kril

Minstrels are capable of some nice burst DPS, however, a minnie dpsing even in a 3 man will be out of power more often then not. Should we give them lower power costs and increased regen so they can sustain it?

They can sustain a level that's greater than a guards since RoI, and importantly; self-sustain.

Viable and competitive for what? Foundry? Lets see a champ tank Saruman, even T1, and not just the Shadow guy. Even roots T2 champs would have a heck of a time tanking, better have a really good healer.

Raid content is sort of the one area in which champ tanking is tough because the magnitude of damage being taken both challenges their morale pool with spike, and that lessens the impact of their self-sustaining through bubbles and self-heals. It is doable in some of the cases however. And Roots t2? Of course they can.

Loremasters are viable as a DPS class only in cases where AOEs are useful. Otherwise their single target DPS isn't that great, and the fact that 90% of their skills are inductions also hurts them as a viable DPS.

You're right, their aoe is better than their single target, like ours. They do more of both than we do however. Their single target isn't so bad as you seem to think, given the right skill uses.

Okay, so Burgs have gotten a DPS boost lately, thats a direct result of OD where the burg was utterly useless. The burg of all the other 'support' classes here also has the fewest support skills, so their DPS should adjusted upwards a tad in comparison to the LM or Cappy.

Burg is a control support, not a healer/buffer, and has as many control skills (debuffs+cc) skills as the other 2 classes that can spec as such when spec'ed to.

The highest I can see for a warden parse is about 1.1-1.3k DPS full DPS spec with good gear. My guard is no-where near being maxed out, but I can still parse 800-900 DPS. Considering I could drop another 6-800 into my might with some extra work, 1.1k would easily be attainable.

Wardens can go far higher, just they suffer even more for dummy parses because they relly on dots for it even more than we do.

Wait, what?!?!? Cappy DPS consists of dropping Sword Brother and spamming To Arms on a hunter.

They out dps us single-target when spec'ed for it, and though their aoe is lacking, they continue to assist group dps whilst out-dps'ing guards who're doing little else.

Two of the 4 CCs that hunters have are legendary traits, their CC is useful only on the original pull. After that, their usefullness takes a HUGE downturn in the CC market.

Not when actually traited into it and with LI/s for it. AKA when they're using their secondary role (seldom as that occurs). When they do it and are geared to do it, they're better than LM's in some ways.

But they tank like balsa board, and can do one or the other without taking the time to switch over. Regardless of traits, this is the only class that can't really do both roles (at least to some degree) without taking the time to drop attunement and build up the other way.

... You cannot be serious! They can spot EftAs with item uses and use writs+preludes out the kaboozle whilst dps'ing. And whilst healing they can drop writs and buff, which is to a lesser extent the same thing. But, whilst this is the opposite of what you said it's unimportant anyway, because as a toon an rk can dps or heal and so has a primary and a secondary (whichever way round you see them) role that are both viable; unlike a guard; which is the point of this discussion.


Secondary roles are just that, secondary, and that's the point. Reading the PvMP forums, there are already complaints about guard DPS being too high. Guard OP DPS is just about right, maybe even a tad too high in my opinion.
There have been no such threads since RoI, because it's not the case now (wasn't before, but our survivability whilst dps'ing to a viable degree was strong).

You need to get some objectivity.

Originally Posted by Grusk

You need to get some objectivity.

Definition for objectivity:

Web definitions:

judgment based on observable phenomena and uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices.

Then take note of my sig... My above observations are based on actually having these classes and having played them in solo, fellowship, and raid environments (minus the warden which I actually went and read some forums to get rough numbers). My writing style however, generally uses a lot of emotion, or at least gives that impression. Any personal prejudices aren't against any specific class here, they are against the people complaining that guards are underpowered in overpower, which is the basis of this post in the first place, trying to show people through play/examples that this isn't the case.

My point being that guards are viable DPS in comparison to Capts, Wardens, and LMs (single target). Blue lined (tank spec since I'm too lazy to re-trait sometimes) last night I was parsing 800 or so running in OP. That's fairly respectable. Now, if anything were to change to the guard to increase DPS, the only suggestion I would have is reduced CDs on our OP skills. But no, I would definately not take a guard to fill a DPS slot in a DPS race fight, but I wouldn't take a Captain, Warden, or LM either.

Originally Posted by Kril

Then take note of my sig...

We see so many "learn to play your guard properly" answers, maybe you should consider that you could be not as skilled with your other toons as with your guard? I am not saying that you are, but it is something to consider and the proof is hard to make.

And even if guard's DPS was in a good place, we have nothing to reduce our threat while DPSing. For a given amount of thread (the amount generated by the tank at any point in the fight), guards have to have a much lower DPS than other classes in order to avoid pulling aggro.

This post has some information on the topic, the only missing classes are the warden (who have threat reducing abilities since U6) and guards who have no threat reductions:

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...15#post5309915

I won't reiterate the other discussions about OP, I am tired of giving facts just to get emotional answers along the lines of "don't change a thing, everything is fine".

Originally Posted by Maelendil

We see so many "learn to play your guard properly" answers, maybe you should consider that you could be not as skilled with your other toons as with your guard? I am not saying that you are, but it is something to consider and the proof is hard to make.

My guard is niether my main, nor my best geared toon. I'd like to think I can hold my own on any of the classes I play, but my guard as a DPSer is definately not my strong point, I feel there is much to be learned in that field, although I think I have the aggro holding part down pretty good.

Originally Posted by Maelendil

And even if guard's DPS was in a good place, we have nothing to reduce our threat while DPSing. For a given amount of thread (the amount generated by the tank at any point in the fight), guards have to have a much lower DPS than other classes in order to avoid pulling aggro.

This post has some information on the topic, the only missing classes are the warden (who have threat reducing abilities since U6) and guards who have no threat reductions:

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...15#post5309915

Any 2nd tier DPS role shouldn't really need threat reduction. Since most of our damage is single target to 3 targets, any tank worth their salt should be able to negate what little threat we would generate. Sure, if you're using vexing blow a lot, or absent minded enough to hit engage, you're gonna get aggro. A single shield taunt should be good to negate any aggro a DPS OP Guard would build with straight DPS.

Notice there are only a few classes with decent threat reduction capabilities, notice they are either top tier DPS, or top tier healing. Then look at the 2nd tier DPS, cappy, one skill (that also gives a -movement speed if I remember). LM, one skill, and an induction skill at that, very good for emergencies if you ask me... Honestly, I'd rather no no threat reduction then either of those...

Originally Posted by Maelendil

I won't reiterate the other discussions about OP, I am tired of giving facts just to get emotional answers along the lines of "don't change a thing, everything is fine".

Wait, what facts? You came to a guard DPS thread and complained that we don't have a threat reduction to counter our 2nd tier dps... Now I'm confused, are you agreeing that we don't need more DPS and that we instead need threat reduction to counter our good dps?

Originally Posted by Kril

You came to a guard DPS thread and complained that we don't have a threat reduction to counter our 2nd tier dps... Now I'm confused, are you agreeing that we don't need more DPS and that we instead need threat reduction to counter our good dps?

To answer your question, I think that we should get a fix to our OP stance to have a more reliable secondary role (increasing the DPS is one way of achieving the goal of providing a useful secondary role for guards). This boost should come with some changes to all the skills we can't or shouldn't use while in OP, either because they require a shield or because they increase aggro. As of now, top tier OP guards can steal aggro from a poor tank, while doing much less DPS than other players in their fellowship. That does not show that their DPS is adequate, only that they cannot reduce their aggro by any other mean than holding back in DPS more than any other class.

As for the first part of your sentence, this is not a DPS thread. As you noted yourself in your OP, there are already dozens of good DPS threads with valuable contributions. This thread is simply a troll thread, as shown in this simple quote from your OP:

Originally Posted by Kril

There are a lot of threads here about OP guards and how they aren't powerful enough with their relatively low DPS.

NO &&&& SHERLOCK!

Listen you whining bunch of sods. Guards aren't about DPS, guards are slow and steady wins the race.

I have no more time to waste feeding a troll. This is my last answer to this thread.

Now would be a good time to read Rohan Beta Notes.

*link removed*

As someone pointed out they're indeed beta forums. I've no idea why I've access to them and probably best not to post links to them.

Originally Posted by Kril

Wait, what facts? You came to a guard DPS thread and complained that we don't have a threat reduction to counter our 2nd tier dps... Now I'm confused, are you agreeing that we don't need more DPS and that we instead need threat reduction to counter our good dps?

i don't think you seem to understand how threat works...

Originally Posted by usernamealreadyinuse

Minstrels are a healing class, they are not meant to dps, they have a very viable and competitive dps spec.

Champions are a dps class, they are not meant to tank, they have a very viable and competitive tanking spec.

Lore-masters are a support class, they are not meant to dps, they have a very viable and competitive dps spec.

Burglars are a support class, they are not meant to dps, they have a very viable and competitive dps spec.

Wardens are a tanking class, they are not meant to dps, they have a very viable and competitive dps spec.

Captains are a support class, they are not meant to dps, they have a very viable and competitive dps spec.

Hunters are a dps class, they are not meant to offer support, they have a very useful CC spec when it comes to CCing trash pulls.

Rune-keepers are just rediculous. They can main heal and main dps. Way too overpowered, their healing should be nerfed by about 50%.



Your logic is flawed. Secondary roles are a large part of this game. Most classes are very competent at their secondary role. Guardians are not. This needs to change

what are you talking about? cappies have great dps, so do wardens, and mini's. No, the runkeeper's healing should not be nerfed by 50%. mind you, they have attunements, meaning, very hard to switch, but when they do need to, they get big bonuses. Lore masters are major CC. And finally, seeing as my main is a guard and having the most experience with him, guards shall forever have one role only, being meatshields.

some1 is mad

Originally Posted by legit-italian

what are you talking about? cappies have great dps, so do wardens, and mini's. No, the runkeeper's healing should not be nerfed by 50%. mind you, they have attunements, meaning, very hard to switch, but when they do need to, they get big bonuses. Lore masters are major CC. And finally, seeing as my main is a guard and having the most experience with him, guards shall forever have one role only, being meatshields.

He was arguing that in the case of each class they 'can' perform their secondary role perfectly well. The initial stipulation in each paragraph that the class shouldn't be able to do x was an assumption garnered from the post he was responding to and not one with which he agrees.

Sorry for the double post, but it's a seperate thread of conversation:

Originally Posted by Kril

Definition for objectivity:

Web definitions:

judgment based on observable phenomena and uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices.

Then take note of my sig... My above observations are based on actually having these classes and having played them in solo, fellowship, and raid environments (minus the warden which I actually went and read some forums to get rough numbers). My writing style however, generally uses a lot of emotion, or at least gives that impression. Any personal prejudices aren't against any specific class here, they are against the people complaining that guards are underpowered in overpower, which is the basis of this post in the first place, trying to show people through play/examples that this isn't the case.

My point being that guards are viable DPS in comparison to Capts, Wardens, and LMs (single target). Blue lined (tank spec since I'm too lazy to re-trait sometimes) last night I was parsing 800 or so running in OP. That's fairly respectable. Now, if anything were to change to the guard to increase DPS, the only suggestion I would have is reduced CDs on our OP skills. But no, I would definately not take a guard to fill a DPS slot in a DPS race fight, but I wouldn't take a Captain, Warden, or LM either.

Observable in a definition means that you can take observations (measurements) regarding the point/s in question, and my point is that you clearly haven't actually looked at the hard parsed numbers that are posted in the other threads, because they blow your subjective impressions out of the water.

Kril and others:

You do understand that 800 DPS is about what a Cappy contributes to a good dps group in a 6 man run just with marks right? Burg same.

800 dps is NOT ok. It is a joke. You should throw up in your mouth a little if that is what you are parsing.

The guards that parse anything near "ok" dps do so with such massive changes to gear and traits they no longer even resemble a Guard and are still providing less dps than a Champ with far less ability to survive.

While I do admit that certain builds to allow a Guard to come close to real, sustained, dps, these builds rely on complete gear and trait changes that just do not make the build a viable one for most players and the result becomes a very poor Champ as far as dps, without the bubbles and other skills available that make Champs so effective as melee dps. In effect you must spend weeks grinding the gear you will need to meet these requirements only to find what you have after all this time and effort is a failed Champ.

I do not find this to be satisfactory and quite honestly neither should any Guard.

Guards with 15k health in OP should not be doing good damage, no (and they don't).

However, guards fully geared for dps sporting 7k health should be much much closer to real dps than they are. If we were meant to have no secondary role as dps, they shouldn't have given us an entire trait line for it... I don't see any other classes with entire trait lines that are INTENTIONALLY garbage for PvE. A trait line intended solely for leveling? Give me a break...

RoI stat changes left OP dps in the dust. And compared to the champion, who is honestly complaining about guards in pvp nowadays? Pledge isn't what it used to be and Fortitude is lol-worthy compared to champ bubbles. If anyone is complaining, its only because freeps in general are stronger... or they fight a 15k, 60%+ tac mit guard and associate that survivability level with the damage output they received from an 8k health, 20k+ phys mastery guard. Or they're still mentally scarred from the bugged OD-set, bugged Hemmorhage bleed, heal proc guardians of pre-RoI.

Can we discuss things in one thread and not in several ???
take a look here :
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...s-a-viable-DPS
and here :
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...nest-interview!

To sum up my opinion :
Every other class has a viable 2nd role. Guards don't.
If our 2nd role is DPS then we just fail. Our DPS is pathetic.
OP should change or be renamed to Underpower.
this is my 1st and last post in this thread, won't go in the same conversation again....

tanking in the moors is nowheres near what it used to be ps. you realy cannot tank in pvp in this game just get ingored pss pledge is worthless in the moors sooo no CAB realy eather.and i realy hope the do a little something with letfly.