I have heard that during evey expansion there was one Freep or another that was OP.
Heard that nothing was as bad as the current MINI.
And the theory that creeps will always have numbers to combat the freeps.
So not asking if this or that creep knows how to play his/her class, but was there ever such a thing as an OP creep!
Maybe a small update or something that made one creep class OP even from low rank on for a few weeks!?
I have heard that during evey expansion there was one Freep or another that was OP.
Heard that nothing was as bad as the current MINI.
And the theory that creeps will always have numbers to combat the freeps.
In theory AND reality creeps, on average, have always had a numbers advantage through out this games entire life. IMO, none have been as powerful in 1v1s as a mini.
So not asking if this or that creep knows how to play his/her class, but was there ever such a thing as an OP creep?
Depending on your opinion, yea, even now some players think certain creep classes are OP. During the first part of SoM wargs were pretty lolzy with CC locking, but burgs were even worse. Spiders were pretty tough too.
Maybe a small update or something that made one creep class OP even from low rank on for a few weeks!?
Pretty sure a newly created low ranked, noob, creep has always been OP when compared to a low rank, newly created noob freep .
"...FF is still the best server period, its like the Texas of Lotro"-Bace
Yeah there have been OP creep classes. Wargs were back in SoM I believe? With the stun/knockdown chances and all that. BAs have been a potent creep class many times (remember before revenge was fixed? I remember having r0's hitting me for 3-4k revenges). Spiders back in mirkwood too were a very strong class. Defilers some consider them now to be OP in 1v1s if they have traited flies.
I have heard that during evey expansion there was one Freep or another that was OP.
Heard that nothing was as bad as the current MINI.
And the theory that creeps will always have numbers to combat the freeps.
So not asking if this or that creep knows how to play his/her class, but was there ever such a thing as an OP creep!
Maybe a small update or something that made one creep class OP even from low rank on for a few weeks!?
Some times there have some OP creep class but overall creep side was only considered OPd due WL rezzes causing creeps to win the war but wining less infamy.
About Freep OPness, worst time was just after Moria release. Freeps were doing comparateviley much more damage than current first agers. Hunters were able to kill any class in 5 seconds just by having a couple crits.
Mordecai CHM - Morken GRD - Gilthen MIN (and many others)
Reavers were pretty op back in book 7 of moria. Been pretty balanced until now when reavers are underpowered for the first time since prebk12, when they didn't have charge and every creep was UP then.
I don't remember any creep classes being OP. They have had certain skills that were very powerful for amounts of time but no single class that was OP. Just annoying skills that get spammed but don't change fights or anything.
Others may see it different but to me just because 1 skill is OP doesn't make the class OP. BA revenge being a great example. 3k revenge on low rank BA is OP but that BA still gets its &&& beat. Warg knockdown was nice but they would still lose quite a bit.
Creeps have never had anything that has the entire package. Nothing like a minstrel, warden, guard, champ, burg, LM...
Last edited by Slin6; Jul 15 2012 at 05:26 PM.
Co-Founder of TEAM F. Turined R9 champ. Mashedtaters R8 Reaver. R6 LM. R6 Burg. R5 Cap
Perma-Retired Pre SoM- R9 Hnt. R8 Reaver. R6 Burg. R6 Cap
Yeah there have been OP creep classes. Wargs were back in SoM I believe? With the stun/knockdown chances and all that. BAs have been a potent creep class many times (remember before revenge was fixed? I remember having r0's hitting me for 3-4k revenges). Spiders back in mirkwood too were a very strong class. Defilers some consider them now to be OP in 1v1s if they have traited flies.
did you even read what you wrote??
how is it OP? what does it matter if you get hit for 20k damage if the skill can only be fired at 2k morale or so?? compared to freep skills that can be done anytime doing 2-3x that damage...
Pretty sure a newly created low ranked, noob, creep has always been OP when compared to a low rank, newly created noob freep .
Yes, in speaking about the ettenmoors effectiveness of one of those said freeps, it is amazing just like you say. In fact, I think it's so amazing that they aren't even forced to engage in a PvP gate for their entire effectiveness to ursurp the title of an on-level swarm mob.
Do you want to continue comparing apples with bricks? How off the plot can these justifications get?
Sometime back in SoM when tendon shred was a cj and could be used on burgs, wargs were op. Wargs were also able to use sprint in shadow howler. SH at the time was really only best at phys type classes, burgs, guards, champs and the like while minis and rk's it was always best to not use SH. *Back then you could either use your from stealth attack or you could drop stealth and use shadow howler, which, had an animation effect but, could be bypassed by selecting your target and using eye rake whether or not your selected target was in range. It was a lot of fun dismounting freeps by dropping stealth using SH on the move and pressing eye rake freeps at first was like &&&?!?*
Wargs were more op back when minis didn't skip around the moors carrying the Triforce but I think it was only a matter of a month before you couldn't use cj's against other players and guards overpower stance became... overpowered. Memory may be off.
**Also most ranked creeps skills before the store sold them. r14 Wargs pwr drain trait was OP, r12-13 spider skills were OP, probably more examples.
Last edited by ssSteele; Jul 15 2012 at 08:11 PM.
Reason: * **
I felt that reavers were slightly OP during SoM. The only thing that really balanced it out somewhat were the ridiculous amounts of RKs and Minis running around. Other than that I always felt pretty strong in every 1v1 and a lot of 2v1s.
The stackable, uncurable fire dots were bad, and the Uruk racial heal was for awhile, but as far as individual skills go I think the worst was the sometimes PERMA spider root back in SoA. That was annoying.
I don't remember any creep classes being OP. They have had certain skills that were very powerful for amounts of time but no single class that was OP. Just annoying skills that get spammed but don't change fights or anything.
Others may see it different but to me just because 1 skill is OP doesn't make the class OP. BA revenge being a great example. 3k revenge on low rank BA is OP but that BA still gets its &&& beat. Warg knockdown was nice but they would still lose quite a bit.
Creeps have never had anything that has the entire package. Nothing like a minstrel, warden, guard, champ, burg, LM...
Originally Posted by DreagonMK
I felt that reavers were slightly OP during SoM. The only thing that really balanced it out somewhat were the ridiculous amounts of RKs and Minis running around. Other than that I always felt pretty strong in every 1v1 and a lot of 2v1s.
The stackable, uncurable fire dots were bad, and the Uruk racial heal was for awhile, but as far as individual skills go I think the worst was the sometimes PERMA spider root back in SoA. That was annoying.
Agree with the above sentiments ....can't really point to an OP CLASS (ie approach faceroll versus majority of opposition classes) Strong =/= OP. Personally I dont even think individually the fire dot was OP, most of the qq was getting hit by 6+ BAs....getting hit by that many Hunters hurt too /shrug.
PPPPPP was in SoM, sometime around book 13 or 14. RK's and Wardens didn't show up till MoM, when wargs had crazy TS ability during book 6 of MoM. Stacking fire dots (incurable) was also during MoM, and that was evil. Same thing with reavers back during mirkwood.
I have heard that during evey expansion there was one Freep or another that was OP.
Heard that nothing was as bad as the current MINI.
And the theory that creeps will always have numbers to combat the freeps.
So not asking if this or that creep knows how to play his/her class, but was there ever such a thing as an OP creep!
Maybe a small update or something that made one creep class OP even from low rank on for a few weeks!?
There have been times when SOME people think creep classes were op, even today some people think some creep classes are op.
But the fact remains, no creep class has ever been able to LOL its way through the moors as minis and champions today, not to mention healing rks.
There has never been a creep class that has been able to take on a handful of ranked enemy players and win. There has never been a creep class that has attacked half a creep raid, gotten a kill, and then ran back to safety. A full freep raid has never struggled with killing a tank creep and a healing creep in a duo, as creep raids today struggle with killing a good tank/healing rk in a duo.
So, no, there has never been an op creep class if you define op by what we define as op freep classes today.
Edit: Even back when wargs were considered op by some, burgs were still a lot better.
Last edited by stoffi; Jul 16 2012 at 06:17 AM.
Leader of the Warg Supremacy Foundation. Retired since RoR came.
<snip>**Also most ranked creeps skills before the store sold them. r14 Wargs pwr drain trait was OP, r12-13 spider skills were OP, probably more examples.
How many Rank 14 Wargs were there before the store sold skills?
How many Rank 14 Wargs are there now?
Having really, really, powerful skills gated on high ranks is by design, is it not? It's not unreasonable for a high ranked Creep to be scary on the battlefield. Not just "A couple extra shots to kill," which it seems that most Freepside players think it should be. But an actual force to be reckoned with.
Creeps had the ''OP'' all purple on warband manouvre in SoA
Creeps had the ''OP'' unbreakable spider root in SoA
Creeps had the ''OP'' AoE unlimited target root upon out of combat burrow in SoA
Creeps had the ''OP'' DoF pots in SoA, 3k morale when being r9 on a 5k morale pool was pretty good
-(Some even considered to 5m AoE incombat wl ress OP so ...)
Creeps had the ''OP'' BA stacking (I think this was SoM too)
Creeps had the ''OP'' warg cj locking in SoM
Creeps had the ''OP'' full heal(s)
This is probably everything ''OP'' creeps ever had most of it was easily countered or quickly fixed. If you make a freep list it will be way bigger, so yea creeps had ''OP'' things. But I don't think they ever had the overall upperhand.
Only pro (''OP'') stuff creeps have atm = warg shadowstance stacking / defi power drain flies stack / flayer warg root
This is probably everything ''OP'' creeps ever had most of it was easily countered or quickly fixed. If you make a freep list it will be way bigger, so yea creeps had ''OP'' things. But I don't think they ever had the overall upperhand.
I agree whole-heartedly, and I don't think anyone is saying that was ever the case. Pretty much just answering the OP's question.
I felt that reavers were slightly OP during SoM. The only thing that really balanced it out somewhat were the ridiculous amounts of RKs and Minis running around. Other than that I always felt pretty strong in every 1v1 and a lot of 2v1s.
The stackable, uncurable fire dots were bad, and the Uruk racial heal was for awhile, but as far as individual skills go I think the worst was the sometimes PERMA spider root back in SoA. That was annoying.
Hmmm, reavers being op in SoM? I don't know, they were pretty balanced I felt. I really didn't have much difficulty with them on guard, esp if I had heal proc gear with 3 set DG fire def, it was lolz to fight them then.
Anyway, forgot to mention, defiler has always been op, and has never been underpowered since its creation in book 13. I still want Turbine to make them a dps stance with no heals being needed, same for minis LOL, but we know turbine.
Last edited by PoliticallyIncorrect69; Jul 16 2012 at 02:56 PM.
was there ever such a thing as an OP creep!
Maybe a small update or something that made one creep class OP even from low rank on for a few weeks!?
Yes. When BA/WVR dots stacked to high hell, Wargs were OP at various stages of the existence of the Moors for different reasons, Defilers right now are pretty OP with or without P2W flies. But that doesn't make up for being hit by Epic Conclusion for 6k with 7 Audacity on my Rank 9 Reaver. By Runekeepers that aren't even fully geared, don't have first age weapons and aren't even good players. That sort of damage should be reserved for people geared like Gods.
Yes. When BA/WVR dots stacked to high hell, Wargs were OP at various stages of the existence of the Moors for different reasons, Defilers right now are pretty OP with or without P2W flies. But that doesn't make up for being hit by Epic Conclusion for 6k with 7 Audacity on my Rank 9 Reaver. By Runekeepers that aren't even fully geared, don't have first age weapons and aren't even good players. That sort of damage should be reserved for people geared like Gods.
I am a god, so why don't I hit that hard on my reaver :P?
I have heard that during evey expansion there was one Freep or another that was OP.
Heard that nothing was as bad as the current MINI.
And the theory that creeps will always have numbers to combat the freeps.
So not asking if this or that creep knows how to play his/her class, but was there ever such a thing as an OP creep!
Maybe a small update or something that made one creep class OP even from low rank on for a few weeks!?
Siege of Mirkwood.
"The LOTRO Store will offer convenience, not advantage." -Patience
"These pots are only available in the store and they are not available via crafting. Nor do we have any plans for this to change right now." -Frelorn
You would love revisiting windfola, I tell you what, if you get anything from the server, it's that freeps need help lololololol
Visiting on my warg, no thanks. I'm sure you'd be happy to strip me of my stars. Even with easy freeps around to kill on Windy, I'll stick with what I've got.
Visiting on my warg, no thanks. I'm sure you'd be happy to strip me of my stars. Even with easy freeps around to kill on Windy, I'll stick with what I've got.
I honestly would barely care anymore, except maybe the thrill of trying to kill a target that can actually escape, beyond that, nothing. I don't play my warden all that much anymore anyway. If I kept up with speed, I could probably have been ahead of gandolfien in rank. Me still sitting at rank 10 is a statement.
How many Rank 14 Wargs were there before the store sold skills?
How many Rank 14 Wargs are there now?
Having really, really, powerful skills gated on high ranks is by design, is it not? It's not unreasonable for a high ranked Creep to be scary on the battlefield. Not just "A couple extra shots to kill," which it seems that most Freepside players think it should be. But an actual force to be reckoned with.
I don't know how many but, I remember when Toebite hit r14 I think a week before RoI launched and with his power drain at 300-350 a tick against a 2-5k power pool, burgs pwr ran dry really quick. Besides, I'm not really understanding the difference between an overpowered skill versus a really really powerful skill. Would that make it a rrp skill? The design had to change a lot of people who made it to rank 12-15 before roi had their skills toned down for the store.
I don't know how many but, I remember when Toebite hit r14 I think a week before RoI launched and with his power drain at 300-350 a tick against a 2-5k power pool, burgs pwr ran dry really quick. Besides, I'm not really understanding the difference between an overpowered skill versus a really really powerful skill. Would that make it a rrp skill? The design had to change a lot of people who made it to rank 12-15 before roi had their skills toned down for the store.
That's one R14 Warg you can name, yes? (no accusation or anything - just making the point of how rare high ranked Creeps are) There are none on Vilya where I play. As for the skill being overpowered vs just really strong, several things come into play. Can you pot it? Does it stack? How many times can you throw it? How many people have it? How does it compare to abilities that the other side has?
This is pretty nasty against a 2K power pool, but what of, say, an 8 - 10K power pool on a Caster class?
I'd say, given the rarity of R14's that have it (or had it) it's not OP. Especially when you compare it to a number of powerful skills that are common Freepside. Remember, our skills are (at least were) rank gated - and even now don't come to full potency until you rank up. Whereas Freep skills are all more or less full potency by the time they reach 75, and can only modify UP from there with armor sets and LI legacies.
Side note, talking about OP. I just watched over my Mate's shoulder as two ("2" as in less than 3, more than 1) ranked Freeps flipped Lumber Camp. That's it. Just two of them. So, the next time a Freep complains about anything Creepside being over powered, you're welcome to just shake your head and say "No. Compared to Freeps? No."
Creeps once they hit R9 are on even footing with freeps on average and with R10, it could be argued a group of R10+ creeps might be OP against all but the best of freep groups. As far as history goes, freeps have typically had more power on average. There were times when creeps were given over the top abilities, un-curable stacking fire DoTs were some of the worst because it just meant that any BA could group up and melt people and that's what they did. the Purple Freeple-Eater was hilarious but removed quickly. Waaaaaay back in Book 10 I would reckon was when both sides were about as equal as they could be in terms of power.
As for overall activity, the first time they put teal gear in the moors there was a R4 bracelet(?) that was the best in the game for freeps and all of the sudden everyone poured into the moors trying to hit R4. That was probably the best time on both sides, they don't really do that anymore since the PvE in the game is about as exciting as a bowl of cold gruel, with zero challenge and everyone still gets their "i'm a winner" gear. They should put some low ranked pieces back out with the vendors again...
8-time Grand Champion Guinness Drinker June 2008 model in "Failmasters of 2008" Calendar Making the world a better place one less pair of pants at a time
That's one R14 Warg you can name, yes? (no accusation or anything - just making the point of how rare high ranked Creeps are) There are none on Vilya where I play. As for the skill being overpowered vs just really strong, several things come into play. Can you pot it? Does it stack? How many times can you throw it? How many people have it? How does it compare to abilities that the other side has?
This is pretty nasty against a 2K power pool, but what of, say, an 8 - 10K power pool on a Caster class?
I'd say, given the rarity of R14's that have it (or had it) it's not OP. Especially when you compare it to a number of powerful skills that are common Freepside. Remember, our skills are (at least were) rank gated - and even now don't come to full potency until you rank up. Whereas Freep skills are all more or less full potency by the time they reach 75, and can only modify UP from there with armor sets and LI legacies.
Side note, talking about OP. I just watched over my Mate's shoulder as two ("2" as in less than 3, more than 1) ranked Freeps flipped Lumber Camp. That's it. Just two of them. So, the next time a Freep complains about anything Creepside being over powered, you're welcome to just shake your head and say "No. Compared to Freeps? No."
It seems like your justification for having some creep classes with OP skills is that freeps have them. I've also noticed a lot of people saying that since freeps have such powerful DPS creeps should have it as well. There are 2 examples that most people agree make the game less fun (dying quick and having quick fights and playing against anything OP) but everyone seems to want.
Most players seem to think the answer to balance is to increase creep DPS. I also see a lot of people justify creeps having something strong with "freeps have it". I just don't get it. It may suck not being as powerful and we all know how frustrating it can be but by asking for new more powerful things just isn't the answer. Creeps may complain that freeps are EZ mode but all they do is ask to get that themselves.
For the record this is for the most part my opinion (the getting blown up quick and getting hit for extreme amounts being frustrating and no fun). I also want to point out this all isn't directed to whoever I quoted. Just really the first line..the rest is very broad and isn't even directed at this thread...just me bitching.
Co-Founder of TEAM F. Turined R9 champ. Mashedtaters R8 Reaver. R6 LM. R6 Burg. R5 Cap
Perma-Retired Pre SoM- R9 Hnt. R8 Reaver. R6 Burg. R6 Cap
It seems like your justification for having some creep classes with OP skills is that freeps have them. I've also noticed a lot of people saying that since freeps have such powerful DPS creeps should have it as well. There are 2 examples that most people agree make the game less fun (dying quick and having quick fights and playing against anything OP) but everyone seems to want.
On the contrary. I submit that skills need to be judged in context and compared to what the opposing side has. Given that, Creep skills are not over-powered when matched against comparable Freep abilities.
Given that Freeps are developed for the main game, their skills and abilities are scaled for the main game content. I submit that Freeps do not need to be nerfed, but that Creeps need to be buffed to provide a relative balance.
Originally Posted by Slin6
Most players seem to think the answer to balance is to increase creep DPS. I also see a lot of people justify creeps having something strong with "freeps have it". I just don't get it. It may suck not being as powerful and we all know how frustrating it can be but by asking for new more powerful things just isn't the answer. Creeps may complain that freeps are EZ mode but all they do is ask to get that themselves.
Perhaps you could offer a different solution, rather than just say "Well, 'they have it so we should too isn't the answer.'" Seriously. What do you propose? I realize that it's unlikely any solution we find would be implemented, but finding a solution is at least a start.
Originally Posted by Slin6
For the record this is for the most part my opinion (the getting blown up quick and getting hit for extreme amounts being frustrating and no fun). I also want to point out this all isn't directed to whoever I quoted. Just really the first line..the rest is very broad and isn't even directed at this thread...just me bitching.
No worries. Not being antagonistic here myself. Just looking for solutions that will do something to provide balance that don't involve making one side or the other EZmode.
On the contrary. I submit that skills need to be judged in context and compared to what the opposing side has. Given that, Creep skills are not over-powered when matched against comparable Freep abilities.
Given that Freeps are developed for the main game, their skills and abilities are scaled for the main game content. I submit that Freeps do not need to be nerfed, but that Creeps need to be buffed to provide a relative balance.
Perhaps you could offer a different solution, rather than just say "Well, 'they have it so we should too isn't the answer.'" Seriously. What do you propose? I realize that it's unlikely any solution we find would be implemented, but finding a solution is at least a start.
No worries. Not being antagonistic here myself. Just looking for solutions that will do something to provide balance that don't involve making one side or the other EZmode.
I've offered many solutions in may different threads. I had originally typed a bit of it out in my last post but I deleted it before I posted (it was to long and I didn't want to De-rail this thread to much more).
Comparing creeps to freeps is the most obvious way and it is understandable. I just don't believe it is a very affective way to balance PvP. My reaver has 15k morale my champ has 7k morale. I'm not saying my reaver is more powerful..I'm just saying the build is 100% different. That is why in my opinion you cannot just compare skills to skills or classes to classes. Without a complete overhaul of PvP I don't think we can find balance this way. We are just comparing apples and oranges.
Here are a few of the little ideas I've had. I'm not posting complete thoughts for the purpose of keeping this thread short. I will also admit I haven't thought all of them through all the way and I'm sure there are plenty of flaws.
When a freep enters the moors they should receive a -% on Damage as well as healing. This is a very blanket answer and by itself would only be a bit affective.
The devastate mechanic should be removed in the moors and all crit multipliers should be nerfed by a % or crit chance should be nerfed. A majority of freep DPS comes from crits and most freeps have lots of crit multipliers resulting in huge damage.
LI's should be removed from the moors (I believe there is a thread on that...would never happen but would be a great fix).
Minstrels have to be nerfed. In my opinion they shouldn't even hit for 3k in PvE let alone 5k in PvP. I honestly just want the PvP end fixed though.
Creeps need to receive more skills that are group related. Look a toolbar of a creep and a freep. A freep may have 4 full tool bars and a creep might have 2? Basically I'd like to see creeps receive some more boring skills. It won't happen because if turbine is going put money into this they want people to get excited. If they do introduce more high damage skills for creeps I'd like to see them introduced with a pre requisite for the skill. Rather then just hit for 4k I'd like to see a buff applied first (similar to LM lightning).
Those are just a few small ideas but I think it gets the point across. I tried to keep numbers out of my post. I just haven't thought about it enough to make up some numbers or the perfect skills and all that. I leave that for turbine (if they ever read it) or other players.
I also have the opinion that blanket buffs or nerfs are very temporary solutions. I'd rather see more permanent solutions (obviously every solution is temporary if turbine chooses not to keep up with things).
I also think we can all agree we would be happier and less frustrated if we didn't get hit for insane amounts of DPS. It annoys me so much to think I'm doing fine then die instantly to one or two freeps just because they got crits. Although not as apparent on audacity freeps and certain classes on freep side it is the same thing. a 2k Dev or VT or whatever is just as annoying as a 5k hit from a hnt. I'm going to contradict myself a bit here but a 2k hit on a freep with 6k morale sucks just as much as a 5k hit on a 15k creep.
Last edited by Slin6; Jul 16 2012 at 10:11 PM.
Co-Founder of TEAM F. Turined R9 champ. Mashedtaters R8 Reaver. R6 LM. R6 Burg. R5 Cap
Perma-Retired Pre SoM- R9 Hnt. R8 Reaver. R6 Burg. R6 Cap
Creeps once they hit R9 are on even footing with freeps on average and with R10, it could be argued a group of R10+ creeps might be OP against all but the best of freep groups.
This was true 1 year ago but not anymore. A veteran group of freeps can wipe the floor with numbers 3-8 times as many as them. Put a healing rk and a tank or champ out there and they will fight off incredible amounts of creeps. And ofc, those who play like that use p2w to further take advantage of a bad situation.
Leader of the Warg Supremacy Foundation. Retired since RoR came.
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