Thread: Why are people so hung up on PvP anyway?

Thought I would try my hand at starting a thread for once Please be gentle

Well you all should know that I hate player versus player (PvP) full stop. There are various reasons for this but the over riding one is that I've been playing roleplaying games (rpg) since the mid 80's and the thing that I loved about them and what made them differrent to any other type of game at that time was the group cooperation that they encouraged. Yes, technically it was several players against one, the game master or GM. However that one player the GM was only there to set the stage for the rest of us to play in. The point was that the GM presented the situation to the players and it was up to the players to work together and overcome the obstical. During my pen and paper days I was fortunate to have played with a group of people that were heavily into telling a story. I didn't even know what people meant by "A hack and slash game" back then cause we were so heavily into telling a tale of high adventure instead. This has of course translated over to the computer games that I play now.

The games I enjoy most are those that tell a story all throughout. This is why I have stuck with lotro for so long now, two years on the clock and still counting. This is the only MMO that has, as far as I have encounted anyway, a decent story to its game play that is actually engaging. A story that I keep coming back to and I look forward to where it takes us with each and every update. Also the plus for me is that the main focus of lotro, is the player versus enviroment (PvE) gaming atmosphere. I love teaming up with other players and delving into a dungeon or what have you. This harkens back to my pen and paper days so this is what I find fun. Of course the added bonus that this game is all about Lord of the Rings cannot be denied.

Yet time and time again on these forums I see threads asking for a new PvP map, or improved PvP play. I have to wonder why they are playing this game when there are other games that do have a PvP focus. Why are they then coming here at all? The only reason I can fathom why they do play lotro is because they are Lord of the Rings fans, at least to some degree. Still, I have to admit I find it really odd and well, I'm starting to wonder if I am alone in thinking so?

I tried a PvP game once but I have to admit I was shocked by the attitude of many of the players in that game. To say that they were rude is a massive understatement. Needless to say I never engaged in the PvP side of that game again and just played in the PvE part. Now I'm not saying that all PvP gamers are bad, as I can see that for some it may be fun for them, it just is not for me. That said though, I stopped playing that game completely after a month anyway. The story for the PvE part was very lack luster to say the least and well It ceratinly was not engaging enough for me to keep playing. I did give it a jolly good try though.

All this said, why then do PvP players keep asking for better PvP in a game that has at its focus a PvE atmosphere?

People have different interests from you, it's as simple as that. I'm not sure why it's hard to understand that someone can be a fan of Lotr and like pvp as well? Why on earth is that odd? Some players like Lotro and they also like the added challenge of playing against real people as it's much harder than playing against the game's mobs. Also some have fun playing orcs, wargs, etc.

Different people have different interests. Sometimes those interests overlap (ie you sharing an interest in Lotr with people who also like pvp.) You don't like pvp, fair enough. But that's not a good reason to deny it to others who do enjoy it, imho. I think a game is stronger if it can cater to different playstyles as it will attract more people. Just do what you love in the game and let others do the same.

Originally Posted by Lothirieth

People have different interests from you, it's as simple as that. I'm not sure why it's hard to understand that someone can be a fan of Lotr and like pvp as well? Why on earth is that odd? Some players like Lotro and they also like the added challenge of playing against real people as it's much harder than playing against the game's mobs. Also some have fun playing orcs, wargs, etc.

Different people have different interests. Sometimes those interests overlap (ie you sharing an interest in Lotr with people who also like pvp.) You don't like pvp, fair enough. But that's not a good reason to deny it to others who do enjoy it, imho. I think a game is stronger if it can cater to different playstyles as it will attract more people. Just do what you love in the game and let others do the same.

I agree with this. I have never been much of a PvPer, but in the past years, I have gone out there enough times, mainly cause I had friends or kinmates who enjoyed it. In my opinion, it sometimes takes a different mindset in order to play in the Moors against other players, cause those players are not computers but actually people like you and me. People enjoy the challenge.

Same can be said for raiders vs. non raiders. I do not raid anymore, nor did I really enjoy it. But I am not going to go out of my way griping about it because they play differently then I do. Everyone plays for their enjoyment, whether they are a PvP freep or creep, a raider, or a casual level-upper (me!).

However, I agree with some of the people who say they would like a updated PvP, even though I do not PvP anymore.

My experience and reasons for playing are identical to yours. Many of my kin PvP on both sides-they already have multiple capped alts, finished all the content and, except when taking people like me on raids etc, are really simply waiting for new content while levelling another class...

I never thought I'd PvP but 2 days ago i went out with them on a raid. Ok.I failed badly. I was there playing for about 10 minutes and spent most of that time coming back from rez circle or waiting to be rezzed. The other 3 minutes i was either stunned, crippled or poisoned. It was hectic, fast, confusing and i felt utterly useless LOL. As a healer I was shown no mercy- MPs just love to munch on newbie freeps-especially greenie healers. But I could finally understand why people do it. These kinnies of mine like playing at the extreme end of the game. You've got to be fast, know your skills intimately and react quickly. No scripts or walk throughs here.

I agree there's a lot more 'L33T' ism in PvP and PvMP and it sure is more aggressive. But as a freep or creep, the grouping skills ( not talking about one-on-one PvP here) are still needed and so is strategy and cooperation. Someone in my kin asked me afterwards if i wanted tips on playing in the moors-my response was, i think, 'i need a new mouse, and new fingers, and better reactions.' (They didn't disagree). From a Freep perspective, many players will tell you they learned more about their class in the moors than they ever did soloing, or even grouping in PvE.

So I guess if it 'floats your boat'.............Me, i'll take healer stress in a PvE raid any day over that hectic and fraught 10 minutes. But then, I haven't been playing for 5 years, I don't have multiple level 75 alts, I can't solo lots of group content, so many more challenges await me before I need to take on that one again. May go back sometime tho- just because the adrenaline is insane. LOL

This is an easy question to answer, some people like to do both.

I LOVE the LOTR story and I am a fan. I LOVE the way the story of the game progresses and is engaging, but I also LOVE the added challenge that playing against other real people offers. I also LOVE grouping up with friends and doing something challenging, that can be done in the moors, and in the rest of the world. I have learned so much about my class and gotten so much better as a player thanks to the creeps holding my feet to the fire, and forcing me to improve or die. That isn't to say there aren't other ways to improve as a player I'm just saying I personally have improved thanks to PvP, there are a TON of amazing players who have never once set foot into the moors, so obviously PvP isn't the only way to get good, but it was a really fun way for me to improve.

Something else to point out, is that while yes there is some meanness in MMO's and a lot of that gets attributed to PvP, the reality is that meannness is really just part of being on the internet. There are friendly good natured verbal spars against the 'enemy' when you PvP. And yes there are some jerks who are just mean. But that isn't confinced to just people who PvP. People are mean to each other in the open world too. There are bad attitudes in PvP, there are bad attitudes in the open word, people being JErks is an internet problem, not a PvP problem.

My experience in this games PvP has been wonderful. I first ventured out into the moors a total and complete NOOB at PvPing. I spent weeks looking at the bad guys like a deer in headlights with no idea what so ever how to respond, but the other freeps where nice to me, they tried to help me, they gave advice in ways that where friendly, they put themselves on the line to try and save me, they where always encouraging. They let me group with them even though lets be honest I was just dead weight in the group at that time, and they taught me where the best places to stand are, when the best time to do X thing is, which classes of creeps are best to kill first, etc. Attitude is everywhere on the internet, but the reason I fell in LOVE with the moors is because of the attitude of my fellow freeps, but there attitude is not the bad kind. They where kind and supportive, and helpful, and generous with their knowledge and time. Sure even on a smaller server like mine there are the local trouble makers, but again people having a bad attitude is an internet problem not a PvP problem.

The thing with wanting a new map, and some PvP development is that while I have only been playing for a little bit over a year, it is my understanding that PvP has been on the same map for 5 years now, and so long time players have literally been EVERYWHERE a bajillion times. All the Freeps have to be subscribers, in order to even have access to the moors, and it doesn't feel like too much to ask that every once in a while Turbine throw that group of subscribers a bone (shaped like a new map, some development, or heck even a mail box in GV). Turbine routinely gives fresh content and development to other subsets of players. For example, not everyone PvE raids, yet it would be unthinkable for Turbine to have only offered one raid for the last 5 years. So if it is expected that they would develop that sort of content even if it isn't utilized by everyone, then why isn't it expected that every once in a while the PvPers get a little attention. I am not picking on PvE raids here the same principle applies to a lot of different things in the game. Not everyone crafts, but crafting gets developed, not everyone cares about rep horses, but some do so it gets developed, some people solo only so turbine has made sure the soloers get enough love to be able to play the way they like. Not everyone likes festivals, but some people do so there are several throughout the year. PvP is not everyone's thing, but it should still get some love the same way other sub sets get love.

I like LOTRO PVP because if you want it, you have to choose to. Its a seperate area. Other games you'd be quite happily ranking and someone would kill you just for the fun of it. Like others Ive ranked all my freeps, and I'm really find PvEing so boring. I started PvPing about 2 years ago and I hardly ever play freepside. Playing against a group of people is much more of a challenge than hitting a bunch of NPCs in an instance. As LOTRO is really a PvE game, the Ettenmorrs are not a priority for devs. Maybe a year ago Saturday afternoons on my server (Laurelin) was PvP Nirvanah. 6 or 7 raids against each other We're lucky to get 2 opposing raids together these days. And people are choosing another game now, so it won't really be a problem.

I am like you I couldn't hate pvp anymore than i do now unless they let it go world wide. IMO it is because it brings out the absolute worst in human nature and i am abhorred by it. the fact that turbine has granted it a place in this world shows alot about the company. The greatest part about it is, that bigT has got some kind of licensing snafu that wont allow then to make much more about it so i am reasonably asured that pvp will and can have its own little space as long as it doesnt make contact with the pve one.

Did the op say there wasn't enough story in lotro? Maybe I misread. As for pvp, I came to lotro for the pvp which is like saying you came to the desert for the waters. I loved the idea of being an evil spider where death is not important but killing good is. It's been 5 years now of great fun, boredom, frustration, anger and constant change. But pvp in lotro is not traditional pvp and that's what I like about it. Theres no effort to balance anything (freeps are the real monsters) and it's more about two factions fighting for control and bragging rights over the good guys. I don't really need a new pvp area and much of what you hear in requests for pvp changes seems to me to be those that like the more traditional pvp (where you take turns killing each other) and want it to come to lotro.

In the end lotro pvp is unique in the mmo world and that's good enough for me.

The simple answer, as some above have already mentioned, is different interests and also point of view....

I myself hail from text based MUD RPGs, roleplaying forums games, etc...so I am very much into roleplaying....infact Lotro was my first ever game in which RP was not enforced.....so technically I too share your views about camaraderie and the group feeling.....that is the reason I love fellowship quests and content and raids in Lotro PvE....because the feeling of taking down a huge enemy or a difficult fortress is very fulfilling for me....

But while that is true, my view of PvP is more like Counter Strike is or any other team on team is.....even in Lotro PvMP, I barely ever like to play alone.....in PvP as well, I enjoy the same camaraderie....like being soldiers in arms.....part of an army fighting the evil forces......hence my love for PvP.....raising the flag of the free people at the enemy's fortress, charging down the armies of angmar, these same things that I enjoy in PvE, I also enjoy in PvP.....more so in PvP because despite roleplaying and all, I know that there is a brilliant mind fighting back from the other side and not just a computer AI.....its the difference between target practice and actual war.....

And being a roleplayer in many games before I can say I can roleplay fairly enough on each side....I do not restrict my roleplays to playing only the good side....a movie/story needs to have bad guys....and someone needs to play them.....so I have played both sides of the spectrum....same goes for PvP.....when I play my warg (my only creep character), I roleplay being part of angmar's army....driven, taught, trained to do only one thing.....fight the free people.....feel the instinct of the dark side.....

So IMO roleplay is not always standing in shining armor and beside the banner of the free people and fighting down monsters and dark creatures....roleplay is like playing a part in a play....I enjoy both sides.....I am obviously a bit biased to playing the good side but I enjoy both.....

And not to mention, I like the competitive spirit in the entire PvP thing.....its not just about button mashing....everyone can be a normal hero who fights PvE.....it takes a separate level of skill to play against another individual who can plan, strategize, improvise and be unpredictable....I like that.....for example, in PvE, you know what Draigoch is going to do in phase 1, phase 2 and phase 3....you know what sort of moves and what sort of battle progression each wing of Orthanc has.....you know what skill the boss is going to use on you....but in PvP, you have to be on your feet....think quickly....fight as an adventurer would fight actually.....observe your enemy, adapt to it......defend your fortress, plan how to topple the enemy defending his fortress cause you dont know what he is planning for you....its different each time.....I like all that planning, strategies and stuff

These are few of the many reasons I like PvP....I am not exclusively a PvPer, but I like to indulge in it pretty much a lot

Although I have been playing MMORPGs since the days of public dial ports and BBS's I have never enjoyed the PvP aspect of those games. Adding PvP to a PvE centric game shackles the developers in that "balance" must always be sought. Care must be taken so that one character does not have any advantage over a different character other than the skills of the player behind the keyboard and you can even see those constant calls to nerf one class or buff another here in LoTRO. The use of exploits or game flaws is prevalent in PvP as people constantly look for that edge that the balancing of classes does not grant. Here in Lotro we had the infamous abuse of the trolls in the Etenmoors as an example. Finally the trash talking that is common amongst PvP'ers is just not my cup of tea and the camping of rez circles or respawn points does not take skill but rather hinges on the use of game mechanics to give you that edge.

Asheron's call was a prime example. Originally there was a separate PvP server which kept that aspect out of the main servers but eventually PvP moved to the main servers. The "reds" would camp outside of major centers and try to entice people to "go red". If you ignored them you would invariably receive tells laced with profanity challenging your "skill in playing the game'. That was one of the main reasons why the wife and I left AC.


So although there are people that enjoy PvP for the reasons listed above I am not one of them nor do I believe I will ever be one of them. One afternoon spent here in the Etenmoors showed me that the trash talk, the rez circle camping and all the other things that bother me about PvP were still there and we have never gone back to our wargs. Each to his own however but since Turbine elected to add PvP I am glad they have resisted the calls to open it server wide and restrict it to the moors. There will still be the calls to nerf one class or buff another but that is the lesser of the evils and I can live with that.

Personally I love PvMP in lotro and I'm a fan of lotr. Also once you get into PvMP (at least on my server) the community is wonderful. Lots of nice and polite ppl and even a defiler who often engages in a sort of rp. Yes, there are mean ppl in the game in PvP and in PvE, but if you meet up with the right ppl in PvP I've found it to have a truly great community.

I have technical trouble with severe lag that makes it impossible for me to support my group in PvP at all and it has been like that for a while. In spite of that, whenever I log on, I get invited to the groups and we spend a lot of time chatting and having fun. The rewards for killing other players in PvP decreases with the number in your group, so if fact my groups are losing out by having me in the group as I can't help them in the fights. The fact that I still get invited (without ever needing to ask for an invite) is proof enough to me that the PvP community can at times be a lot more easy-going than the PvE community (this is like inviting someone to a raid or instance that you know will lag out at the start and still take her through the instance and give an equal share of the rewards).

More than that, whereas for the major part of PvE you can solo, PvP regularly requires group-work and cooperation to manage and that strengthens the community and allows ppl to learn their part in a group. There are pure soloers in PvP but they are somewhat rare at least on monsterside (can't say about freepside as I never play that side) and the very tough start-out in PvP (everyone starting PvP will die many times until getting to know the moors. At least I managed to die 100s of times before even learning how to play my warg) strongly encourages group-play, which of course requires players to start thinking not only of themselves but also of their group, and what's best for the entire group.


This describes PvMP on my server based on my personal experience. I do not know how other servers are and as such can not comment on PvMP in general, only my own server.

I'm a fellow Riddermarker and I hate pvp. I'm sick of people whining in glff about how this person did that or some raid group did this... It's not a PvP game. People have awful attitudes and bring it out of the pvp zone into glff and the rest of the game and it really ruins it to have all that negativity over a small part of the game that isn't even the focus. I wish they would just scrap it altogether and let those people take their pvp and whining elsewhere.

I kinda with this game did not have PVP. There are lots of games that are PVP centric. The PVP'ers are the most vocal about perceived lack of balance between classes. This is what leads to devs nerfing up classes to keep the PVP'ers happy. So A PVE'er like me, I roll lets say a hunter four years ago. As a result of all the PVP moaning, the hunter gets all nerfed up since he's too this or too that and the wargs have a tough time with them.

So I wish the PVP'ers would find another game.

Originally Posted by Puravidaman

I kinda with this game did not have PVP. There are lots of games that are PVP centric. The PVP'ers are the most vocal about perceived lack of balance between classes. This is what leads to devs nerfing up classes to keep the PVP'ers happy. So A PVE'er like me, I roll lets say a hunter four years ago. As a result of all the PVP moaning, the hunter gets all nerfed up since he's too this or too that and the wargs have a tough time with them.

So I wish the PVP'ers would find another game.

I'll assure you....no change takes place to classes or anything because of PvP imbalance or any such reason related to PvP....if that was the case, the Warden, Minstrel and Champs that do roam around facerolling the moors wouldve been nerfed months ago....

Imo, hunters are not nerfed in any way.....but then again I dont play one and I am only speaking on basis of what good hunter friends have told me....and those of who do consider that hunters were indeed nerfed, rest assured that would only have been done because the devs saw it good for the PvE balancing....


I am not an exclusive PvE-er or PvP-er....I enjoy both....so I will just say one thing to all those purists who dont like PvP and want to removed from the game.....learn to co-exist....."I dont like this so take it away" is pretty much what I would expect from an adolescent.....no offense meant.....there are people who hate housing, fishing, raiding, etc as well.....so should those things be removed too just because theyre not the so-called "focus" of the game?....just like the real world, people are gonna have different interests.....try to be more considerate than say go somewhere else.....if you dont like it, dont do it....but dont spoil it for others.....

Originally Posted by silverblade5445

I am not an exclusive PvE-er or PvP-er....I enjoy both....so I will just say one thing to all those purists who dont like PvP and want to removed from the game.....learn to co-exist....."I dont like this so take it away" is pretty much what I would expect from an adolescent.....no offense meant.....there are people who hate housing, fishing, raiding, etc as well.....so should those things be removed too just because theyre not the so-called "focus" of the game?....just like the real world, people are gonna have different interests.....try to be more considerate than say go somewhere else.....if you dont like it, dont do it....but dont spoil it for others.....

The thing is, I don't mind pvp in itself. I mind the attitudes and juvenile bickering that come with it. As far as spoiling the game for others like you mention, the pvpers with their rudeness and complaining spoil the pve side of the game.

PvP is generally the more entertaining choice in MMORPG's because of how unoriginal the PvE is. If all the bosses are the same ol' same ol' who's going to want to be doing that all day? PvP allowed you to fight enemies that you CANNOT second-guess. They could make ANY move!

Sparring - Sometimes we want to know who's the better Champion. Lore-Master or Minstrel (Etc). So we spar eachother to see who wins.

Ettenmoors - There's nothing more fun than a Raid vs. Raid fight. A large group of people coordinated to fight the other group is a blast!

And LOTRO had PvP nearly at its start. I would hardly call that PvE focused game. It appears as if it's half and half. Half of the game's classes are created strictly for a PvP region. That's a lot of classes. Sure, PvE gets a lot of focus, but just because they release new boss fights every expansion doesn't mean that PvE gets more attention than PvP. PvP doesn't REQUIRE a new region every expansion, so they ALWAYS focus on improving something inside the Ettenmoors. It has equal attention, it just doesn't get equal release content.



Let's just face the sad fact that MMORPG's stopped releasing unique Boss Fights and quests back in 2005.

Originally Posted by Arodion

The thing is, I don't mind pvp in itself. I mind the attitudes and juvenile bickering that come with it. As far as spoiling the game for others like you mention, the pvpers with their rudeness and complaining spoil the pve side of the game.

There is rudeness and juvenile bickering in PvE as well....hardcore raiding kins shunning PUGs, elite raiders dismissing or not taking lesser-geared people in groups, casual players complaining about raiders getting the "best" gear, raiders claiming everything is being dumbed down for casual players, there is griefing with resource-node tapping, forced emotes...

The thing is, there are negatives and positives to each side....I have met some wonderful and mature people in the PvP community......PvP raid leaders who are more efficient than any other PvE raid leaders I have seen....I known respectable practices like leaving alone AFK players of the opposite side, not zerging a small group of the opposite side just because you outnumber them hugely, not rez camping.....etc.....so there are good and bad people everywhere.....the only thing being, PvP having a much more competitive side to it, tends to make people passionately outspoken about it....and sometimes aggressive.....so my usual tactic during such time is politely asking people take take PvMP squabbles to PvMP oriented channels or private messages....and if it gets too much, to tune off glff for half an hour or so during which people let the steam out.....

And a thing is note is, the PvMP community of this game is FAR more mature and nicer than the bloodthirsty and savage communities I have seen in other games....

Because it's fun.

Playing against other players can be more fun than playing against artificial computer intelligence.

I buy Microsoft Office. My version only had Microsoft Word. My co-workers have Word and Excell. I keep saying to them - what's the big deal about Excell anyway?

For me Lotro is lacking one of the basic gameplay options present in other MMOs. I want to be able to do PvP when I get sick of PVE, just like I want to be able to easily group (using a IF/DF). So the question, why would I want Excell when I have Word doesn't make much sense to me.

Don't overlook the financial factor...

LotRO is free to play, and Turbine is very generous in just how much free content there is. For younger players (teens and into early 20s), that they can play with no financial outlay is going to be extremely attractive. And once having come to LotRO for the cost, there will be efforts to remold LotRO into what ever game they'd prefer to play...including PvP (and, of course, the ubiquitous threads asking for flying mounts and pets for Hunters).

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

It's a legal way to kick someone's butt without the risk of ending up with a few missing teeth or a black eye. Some people strive for this kind of satisfaction of wants.

Originally Posted by silverblade5445

There is rudeness and juvenile bickering in PvE as well....hardcore raiding kins shunning PUGs, elite raiders dismissing or not taking lesser-geared people in groups, casual players complaining about raiders getting the "best" gear, raiders claiming everything is being dumbed down for casual players, there is griefing with resource-node tapping, forced emotes...

-chopped for length-

True, it happens. But idk, I've noticed much more moors complaining but maybe that's just because it's so out of place in glff when it starts up and there's at least one extended rant per day. I wish there was a dedicated chat channel for it, then I wouldn't care so much. I just get sick of hearing the same thing over and over again and it blocks out everything else the channel is supposed to be used for, plus specific player drama...just, bleh... I'm sure there's good sides to it as well but from a non pvper perspective I find it minimal.

Originally Posted by silverblade5445

I'll assure you....no change takes place to classes or anything because of PvP imbalance or any such reason related to PvP....if that was the case, the Warden, Minstrel and Champs that do roam around facerolling the moors wouldve been nerfed months ago....

Imo, hunters are not nerfed in any way.....but then again I dont play one and I am only speaking on basis of what good hunter friends have told me....and those of who do consider that hunters were indeed nerfed, rest assured that would only have been done because the devs saw it good for the PvE balancing....


I am not an exclusive PvE-er or PvP-er....I enjoy both....so I will just say one thing to all those purists who dont like PvP and want to removed from the game.....learn to co-exist....."I dont like this so take it away" is pretty much what I would expect from an adolescent.....no offense meant.....there are people who hate housing, fishing, raiding, etc as well.....so should those things be removed too just because theyre not the so-called "focus" of the game?....just like the real world, people are gonna have different interests.....try to be more considerate than say go somewhere else.....if you dont like it, dont do it....but dont spoil it for others.....

One of the more balanced views on PvP vs PvE in LotrO that I've seen... and it's true as well. +rep

The problem is that ppl that say to love pvp in lotro don't love the rules that lotro have, so QQ about everything other player can do while they play.

The QQ list is infinite, go from that skill|class| is too strong... to ...your a nuub, coward etc... etc... etc...

Why ppl can't just wipe in silence? ^.^

Imo if you play a game you accept every rules the devs develop and you had to accept that everyone play his way in the game respecting the rules that the devs setup. It's the basic for every civil society have some rules that everyone respect but well for someone seem too difficult to understad.

Such civil replies, thank you all

I'll just set the record straight though. I am not at all against PvP games as I am sure they have thier place. I am also not against lotro having a PvP zone for players who like PvP gaming. I am also not against PvP players who play lotro. However why is the PvP side of this game lacking? Cause I see the reason that most who like to play a PvP game is because of the challenge that it presents over that of an AI controlled sprite. If this is the sole reason why so many calls for improved PvP? Does not the game currently provide this?

I would have thought that lotro has provided such well enough. However as the game is more focused on the PvE side of game play I would think you can't really expect much in the way of PvP. With that thought it makes me wonder why some players persist on venting on about PvP in this game instead of just going to another game that has a strong PvP focus?

Then again, maybe I'm just weird, my friends tell me I am all the time

Originally Posted by Grieyls

Such civil replies, thank you all

I'll just set the record straight though. I am not at all against PvP games as I am sure they have thier place. I am also not against lotro having a PvP zone for players who like PvP gaming. I am also not against PvP players who play lotro. However why is the PvP side of this game lacking? Cause I see the reason that most who like to play a PvP game is because of the challenge that it presents over that of an AI controlled sprite. If this is the sole reason why so many calls for improved PvP? Does not the game currently provide this?

I would have thought that lotro has provided such well enough. However as the game is more focused on the PvE side of game play I would think you can't really expect much in the way of PvP. With that thought it makes me wonder why some players persist on venting on about PvP in this game instead of just going to another game that has a strong PvP focus?

Then again, maybe I'm just weird, my friends tell me I am all the time

It also does not explain so many calls for a new map. Fighting a human intelligence is sooo much better that fighting canned AI, but doing so on the same map for such a long time makes it boring. Que?

My theory, from years of trying PvP in various games, leads me to believe that most PvP players want an innate fairness in the combat system; they want skill to matter. Sadly, with a class based system fairness cannot be acheived; there's always going to be some class that has an advantage over yours. Granted, they will also have disadvantages against yours, but I have noticed over time that there are usually few complaints from players about some class losing too much, unless thay are playing that class.

Even if the basic inequality of the classes is accepted, without encounter controls there is still no guarantee of fairness. Even in an FPS game, where everyone is equipped the same and has the same abilities, a 10-on-1 encounter could hardly be called sporting.

Of course, the concept of 'sporting' is not a universal PvP axiom by any stretch, either. There are PvPers who try to engage in 'fair' fights; there are also others, and not a small subset, for whom the fairness of the fight is of no importance. The war cry of these people is usually some take on 'if it's red, it's dead!"

To me, the downsides of interacting with the PvP community outweigh the upsides. Sure, there are some who are honorable, and want nothing more than a test of skill. However, being inflicted with one (or more) of the more, er, deviant players can really be a downer to a day of gaming. I see no need to take the chance.

Originally Posted by Calta

These kinnies of mine like playing at the extreme end of the game. You've got to be fast, know your skills intimately and react quickly. No scripts or walk throughs here.

One of my largest complaints with LotRO PvP is that it's too slow...

They stay away from my pie runs and I stay away from their smack talking.

Originally Posted by Arodion

I'm a fellow Riddermarker and I hate pvp. I'm sick of people whining in glff about how this person did that or some raid group did this... It's not a PvP game. People have awful attitudes and bring it out of the pvp zone into glff and the rest of the game and it really ruins it to have all that negativity over a small part of the game that isn't even the focus. I wish they would just scrap it altogether and let those people take their pvp and whining elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Arodion

The thing is, I don't mind pvp in itself. I mind the attitudes and juvenile bickering that come with it. As far as spoiling the game for others like you mention, the pvpers with their rudeness and complaining spoil the pve side of the game.

Because surely there is never any negativity, griefing, or attitudes in the rest of the game. You can try that reason if you want but the folks who PvP also PvE so they know that isn't so. Jerks and greifers are not a PvP problem, they are an internet problem, and really they aren't even just an internet problem, they are a problem IRL too. The idea that if the PvPers would just go away, then there would be nothing but rainbows and happiness in glff is just silly.

Originally Posted by Grieyls

Such civil replies, thank you all

See us PvPers have some manners afterall ;p!

As for what is wanted and why people complain, I cannot speak for everyone, but here are some of my complaints in case that helps. Same map for the last 5 years, we cant even get a mail box at GV, or a relic/forge master, and creeps cannot even mail to other creeps at all. Sure a map would be a big undertaking, and it might not even be feasible, but it can't really be that hard to pacify us with a mail box, you know throw us a bone from time to time.

I haven't been out PvPing for years so I can't really suggest solid ideas, but off the top of my head there could be annual events where creeps and freeps would be able to raid each others bases (grams and GV) with special rewards for example a title if you are able to kill the other sides Tyrant/CG, or maybe the Delving could be redone now that commendations have made it not super useful, maybe there could be some events, like double renown/infamy days a few times a year. Maybe for one weekend the keeps could be empty, no npc's and no ability to take them, so it is only freeps and creeps out. Like I said these are just ideas off the top of my head, maybe they wont work, maybe they would, some might be to much work to implement, but I think that there has to be some ways to change things up a bit from time to time.

Plenty of people really enjoy Tolkien's works, so much so that they readily jumped into the PvMP, to see things from the 'other' side. Other people purely stick to the 'moors, and never step foot into the actual game (or vice versa). 'moors is an option, for those who either become a bit tired of questing freep side, or simply enjoy fighting a live opponent. It's not the focus of the game though, so expect it to grow very slowly, almost glacially so. The focus will always be on the main game, since that is the main reason people play it. I know proponents of PvP will say otherwise, but PvE players normally outnumber PvP players by at least a factor of 3 or more in most games except those specifically designed for PvP play. It's not a dig, it's just the way things are.

Originally Posted by Dinarian

See us PvPers have some manners afterall.

Don't get me wrong, I do realise that a lot of PvP players are quite civil and well behaved. It just wasn't so the first time I tried a PvP centric game and that experience alone has stained my view on the subject ever since. That and I am just hopeless at PvP play, I mean I am really, really bad at it. I can't keep my characters alive for longer than a few seconds at best. Honestly if the creeps in the Moors want a punching bag for half an hour they should call me

Originally Posted by Grieyls

However why is the PvP side of this game lacking? Cause I see the reason that most who like to play a PvP game is because of the challenge that it presents over that of an AI controlled sprite. If this is the sole reason why so many calls for improved PvP? Does not the game currently provide this?

What people are wanting are some new areas to run around. Image only being able to run around the Shire.. for 5 years. I rarely pvp, not because I don't like it but for reasons like even for me seeing the same ol' Moors is boring. I don't know how others do it so often. I don't know about other servers, but on mine, it seems like you'll get steamrolled if you're not in a raid. There are some that do fine soloing, but I'm not one of them. :P So you're left hoping to find a group. Then it's up to the raid leaders to make it interesting for the others, perhaps even make up scenarios to balance the sides up. I hate trying to find a spot in a raid, then feeling I can't leave when I've had enough after 30 minutes as I know I might not get back in.

Also there's different forms of pvp. What lotro has is open pvp... a big area, go search each other out and start fighting. Other games have instanced pvp where there are objectives such as catch the flag or control certain points. These can be joined through something like the instance finder and it's also something you can do when you're low level. I really wish Lotro had those sorts of things as it would mean I would pvp a lot more.

So no, Lotro hasn't provided enough really. But thing is, people like the atmosphere of Middle Earth or Lotro's classes, whether they be Free People or monsters. Players see the potential to make pvpmp so much better and wish they could experience that in Middle Earth. So that's why you'll see players persist on venting about the issue instead of going to another game. It's exactly the same as anyone who cares about some facet of the game (roleplaying, crafting, raiding) and why they persist on venting about certain issues. Certain people happen to like a combination of pvp and Middle Earth. Going to another game may not satisfy that. Plus they've invested a lot of time leveling characters up and they probably also have a lot of friends in game which means they're heavily invested in Lotro. That's not something you just toss aside.

Originally Posted by Grieyls

Don't get me wrong, I do realise that a lot of PvP players are quite civil and well behaved. It just wasn't so the first time I tried a PvP centric game and that experience alone has stained my view on the subject ever since. That and I am just hopeless at PvP play, I mean I am really, really bad at it. I can't keep my characters alive for longer than a few seconds at best. Honestly if the creeps in the Moors want a punching bag for half an hour they should call me

you make it sound like rude people only PVP, rude people are everywhere be it PVE or PVP I had a nice share of them in both.

PVP might not be the main focus but ignoring it when so many people play it tends to get a lot of people pissed which is why so many are asking for improvements, especially when 1 side is favored and made god-like which completely ruins the point of PVP.

I love the PvE in the game I enjoy it very much but I also love the challenge and randomness PVMP has(sadly not much of a challenge these days), I know many that quit just because Turbine is not giving PVMP enough attention and they were not only PVP'ing some had well over 10 chars and loved the PVE side.

PVMP is part of the game and A lot of people take part in it the argument saying it was not even suppose to be in the game and get attention is old we are not in 2007 anymore, not to mention it racks in a nice amount of cash too I can only hope turbine finally realizes it's true potential and give it the attention it needs.

also well said for the post above me couldn't agree more many ppl don't want to simply leave cause they love the game and wish it to be improved, many left to others games and were mostly not satisfied either...

Myself i don't PvMP. But i do support the views of thosethat do. Though i cann't add any input in to there diffirent gameing issue', Reading the forum's i do think the dev's could wrok on some thses issue's. But with so many issue's with the PvE side of the game ,( which is the main priority i would guess). Who know's. Most have no idea the challenge even small changes can be.
I do think PvMP offer's an added benifit to the game. Some player's play there mainly between exspansion's while waiting for new content. I'm sure it offer's other benifit's for player's that do both. I have seen below avg. and avg skill lvl player's learn or improve there PvE game.
1 day i will get to the moor's but when i figure i'm really up for that type of play, or figure it can improve my PvE game.. Atm , well i have a rather unorthadox play style i guess, my char. is usually untraited in solo mode, and well with only the few free unlocked slot's to use way under traited in group's. But between stating difirent and my battle style. i hold my own an even more at time's. But like i say my PvE style and stratagies, an idea's are diffirent from most i guess. Maybe creep's force or teach something i'm doing in PvE that other's may only learn in the moor's, idk. So those PvE player's that would like to improve there PvE game should consider trying the moor's an sticking with it,, like some have posted, they improved there skill's and other thing's from the creep's holding there feet to the fire an forceing them to improve.
But 1 day i will get to the moor's and die a milloin deaths i'm sure. But hey if it improves my PvE game, i be happy, happy.. and for those that have made the moor's there home. Hey! added bonus's for them. easy kill's and fun playing there type of game , here in lotro.

I dislike PVP in this game or any other game. I roll my eyes at any suggestions of open world PVP or ideas that PVP should get as much focus as PVE. But with that said, they did add PVP to the game so I think its only fair for the people that like it to get more than they've gotten in the last few years. An explanation of why a new PVMP map has never happened after multiple announcements isn't out of line.

Originally Posted by UrsaMinor

My theory, from years of trying PvP in various games, leads me to believe that most PvP players want an innate fairness in the combat system; they want skill to matter. Sadly, with a class based system fairness cannot be acheived; there's always going to be some class that has an advantage over yours. Granted, they will also have disadvantages against yours, but I have noticed over time that there are usually few complaints from players about some class losing too much, unless thay are playing that class.

I've read posts as well, and the while I am willing to believe that many (perhaps even a very large fraction) of the PvPers want fairness and even combat, what far too many posts would indicate is that there is a portion of the PvP community that considers "fairness" to mean "I win" and the calls for "class balance" boil down to, "make MY class win every time."

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by Rugba

PVMP is part of the game and A lot of people take part in it the argument saying it was not even suppose to be in the game and get attention is old we are not in 2007 anymore, not to mention it racks in a nice amount of cash too I can only hope turbine finally realizes it's true potential and give it the attention it needs.

How do you define "a lot"? Do you mean absolute numbers, or fraction of total players?

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by Grieyls

All this said, why then do PvP players keep asking for better PvP in a game that has at its focus a PvE atmosphere?

Okay, first things first... not everyone is like you. I happen to enjoy PvP a lot, as well as PvE. Now I do agree that the PvP in this game is nowhere near the levels of other games, but it is still fun. I don't know if you're upset that others are asking for more PvP content, but you have to realize that this is not a strictly PvE game (although it mostly is).

Secondly, PvP is fairly competitive. Sure, PvE can get competitive between guilds or kinships at times, but it is a bit different from PvP. PvP is constant action against other real players, which is why a lot of people like it. It takes out some of the stupid exploits or advantages you have over AI, and pits you against other players making the game hopefully an even playing field. Because of this, you really shouldn't get offended it some people come off as "rude". More than likely it is just trash talk, and they don't mean any of it. It is kind of like trolls. If you get mad at them...you're doing it wrong.

Edit: Sorry if I came across as rude. Not my intentions. And at the above poster, I don't agree. I've played PvP a lot over the years on various games, and a dream held by most all players in general is for all classes to be the game, and for skill to reign. The problem with this is that the better gear you have, and the better class you are playing, the better off you probably are. I remember back in WoW before they created PvP gear, and all of the raiders with the best gear in the game (which was hard to get) dominated sessions.

To all who have responded and to those who may yet still, please understand that I am not complaining this is an honest question. I am fully aware that not everyone is like me and PvP is valid gaming style. I also understand that juvenile behaviour is not restricted to PvP players that it does show up in PvE arenas as well, the fact I have anyone on my in game ignore list is testement to that statement. That said however the level of juvenile behaviour that I experienced during my one try at a PvP game was, well I wouldn't want that kind of behaviour on anyone.

My question though was posted due to the thought that I often have when reading yet another thread about improving the games PvP side. If you play this game "soley" for the PvP and it is lacking which it would seem is the case as this game has PvE as its main focus. Would not playing another game that has PvP as its main focus be more suited to your play style? Why keep complaining about the PvP play here?

One of the things I love about this game is how SEPARATE PvP and PvE can be.

I don't like PvP never have in any game I ever played. Just not my cup of tea. In this game I do not ever have to do it if I don't want to. They don't dangle and achievement at me that I can only get with 90% PvE content and 10% PvP content that cannot be avoided like another big game does. Heck I can even shut of sparring request. OMG I LOVE this feature.

Don't get me wrong. I have the highest respect for the skill it takes to PvP well. I just don't think one should HAVE to PvE to be good in PvP or vice versa. This game got that mostly right(from a purely PvE players perspective, I wont comment from the PvP side)

Originally Posted by Dawnsinger

and even a defiler who often engages in a sort of rp

My dear Duskdancer, I am quite sure I have no idea about what you refer to. I am pleased to see word from you though, long has it been since I have seen you prowling in the 'Moors, I assumed you had been locked up in the Warg Pens again for bad behaviour. There are many festering hobbit toes and dwarf noses in my pockets which I have of course been saving as treats should you wish to collect.

As for the original point, well, in a nut shell, if the great Gods of Turbine are willing to take money from those who do combat on the field, then surely we are entitled to a little love now and then. You will not find me asking for a new land to roam in, all I wish to see is a little care and attention thrown our way.

I lost my love for questland some time ago and have exclusively roamed the 'Moors for the last two years or so. I had dipped my toe in the squalid waters of the 'Moors from time to time before that, since Middle-Earth came to be in fact. I too found it an unwelcoming place to begin with, and after abandoning questland became a full time monster. I had often wondered how the community at large was so nice and helpful here in Middle-Earth, and soon came to the conclusion that the majority of ill-mannered simpletons had been locked up in the 'Moors all this time. To this end, the option to ignore is very much your friend and should be used. Scratch a little deeper beneath the surface and you will find many decent and helpful people, but perseverance is very much needed.

I am never happier than when shaking my stick and spreading disease to all and sundry. Things as they stand are a little tough for monsters at the moment, not so bad when we have decent numbers to fight back against the proponents of Elrond's Propaganda Machine as they slander the name of Our Royal Eyeness Sauron. I used to enjoy particularly late night battles with small groups on either side. Lately such battles are futile, when half a dozen monsters face half a dozen minstrels, a captain and a warden. What I, and I'm sure many others, would like to see is just a little balance restored. As has been mentioned before, a truly balanced approach will never happen, and perhaps nor should it. A difference between sides leads to a pleasing dynamic in battle. But things as they stand verge on the ridiculous at times, nobody enjoys being blown up in seconds and as a healer myself I can only dream of being able to tend my comrades wounds as effectively as my opponents.

The Research and Development team at the Shake a Stick Foundation are currently working on a giant catapult to hurl the many overweight orcs towards the enemy. Once this is complete I look forward to seeing the dozen or so minstrels one can find squashed into oblivion.

I stay and battle in the 'Moors because I still love Middle-Earth, at least a part of it. I do not believe it is out of order to expect a little attention. After all, making all aspects of life here better is surely in the interest of us all. Otherwise they should simply lock the gates to the 'Moors and be done with it. As long as it's there, with battle on the field and coin being collected from those who participate, we are more than justified in expecting progress towards a better experience.

Now, if you'll excuse me my goblin scribe Maude needs her fingers held over the fire for atrocious late night penmanship.